Aaron Hagmaier and Noren Gelberg-Hagmaier

00:01 Good afternoon. I'm Aaron hagmaier. I'm 57 years old and today is Thursday, June 10th, 2021. I'm here in Harrisonburg, Virginia and I'm here with my niece. Noran and they are a I said that my niece, my niece and just going to have a conversation today with. Hi. I'm Lauren. Gilbert. Hagmeyer. I'm 21. Today is Thursday, June 10th 2021. I'm in Harrisonburg, Virginia. And with Erin, who is my uncle.

00:48 I'm all start off by asking questions. I think this is something. So you started out the pandemic living by yourself and that townhouse and then a couple months and you moved here after living with my mom, your sister. How is that we experienced strange? Like being fully alone to them being with someone else? During this time. You know, you've been, I've been single my whole life, the idea then you get used to your own routines. We used to be neighbors. And so, we relocated here in 2009. I retired from the Air Force, they moved from Tucson and we shared a big backyard but separate living houses. And so we have this great relationship. And so

01:41 Some change in our lives and noren is off the college. And Mom says, you do I need to how do we pay for college? How do we share expenses? But then with the pandemic coming along and the roommate that she had left and so what's the next best thing family? So going from that Independence that you cheer over you no, 56 years of your life to relocating again, downsizing from a four-bedroom house. Two bath, two bedroom, apartment to a one bedroom, the other, the pandemic created a lot of change or reassessment of your life. Yeah, and so just overall reassessing of your life. I think it's an important reason why this conversation is helpful to have.

02:38 And I was thinking of the idea of the pandemic and its impact on relationship be a family. Cuz now you're living with your sister and there's a balance back of even, she has her own ways and we get along good in the end those stamps, but I'm sure we step on each others toes at time just because we're both set in our ways to some level. And one of the things I wanted to actually bring up was the idea of the pandemic from my youth when I was your age. And that was the AIDS pandemic. I was looking at how that impacts relationships even within the family and even with can somebody know. I found that was like in 1983-84 when you have AIDS and I met

03:30 Freshman sophomore junior in college that idea of establishing relationships are being closed off because of a threat, is something that I thought was significant. And then the difference that I was going to say to you. How does that impact your relationships of the last two years where you had to, you know, even downsize from the relationships or not explore relationships because of the concern to worry? Where is everybody at?

04:01 Yeah, I mean, I've been, I've been I have a roommate in Richmond, and we left together.

04:12 It was like nine months before we went into quarantine. I think maybe seven months somewhere around there. And then so then it's just been the two of us for a while. And I mean, like the first, like I think it's nice like I wouldn't want to be living in a one-bedroom, like a Love by myself during this time and not being able to see anyone relationship are very important. So it's nice to have a roommate. But then it's also, like, I've been trapped with this person that I'm starting to sound like

04:48 Been adulterous like, oh, well.

04:53 Oh having people over as weird with this pandemic, but then like

04:57 You know, like I would only have like, I have my partner would come over and it's just one, you know, they got one person's coming into the hall and then like my roommate, didn't really care like covid worries, but my roommate was just weird about having people over in general so that I feel like this past year and then also being in like finally getting into my major in sophomore year college and then

05:22 Going online in the middle of fight like second semester. Like, I haven't gone to interact with a lot of my peers as much cuz it's like you are a resume. So you don't have those old. People are in the classroom 5 minutes early and try to work on something. It's everyone's got their things on mute.

05:39 But do you think that it's nice to like have someone in the same space as you during this time when we've been more closed off?

05:47 Yeah, I think it is nice to have somebody close by, you know, one of the things that I do in my life course, work continues, but I'm also a member of the Shenandoah Valley quality board. And we always have these events or, you know, people in the lgbtq community to gather. So we would have her Friday somewhere. We go to somebody's house. We would do a Thursday conversation and cuisine at someone's house. We would do a bull clock then and so all those things that you rely on suddenly are gone. And then yeah, I think it's important to have a replacement and what do you lost maintain your own sanity? So yeah, I I think

06:38 It's been very positive because life is short and get to know family. Get to know people, and I think it really emphasizes that when we all get back together. Now things are changing, that will appreciate more.

06:53 The conversation, the meeting but getting together because you know what you've lost and and then will you appreciate it more?

07:02 Are Christian and my brain stopped?

07:07 Oh, yeah, I've never been anything that you found like so you can't have those dinner to someone's house. You can't have these things. Have you been doing anyting? I was not community over the pandemic to try to keep connected or is it just been hard? Well, I have not sinned and so that has been hard there was here just south of us and Stenton in the Shenandoah Valley lgbtq Center in Soo. We were meeting regularly on Saturday, afternoons as p.m. Get together or have a cookout and that Center is uniformly organized by, you know,

07:48 Emily and then she's done a good job of trying to say. Let's do virtual get-togethers and I have not been good at doing the first we'll get together. So I really shut down the idea of social life since last March.

08:07 I meant so.

08:10 You're living with my mom. Now you live with angel for a little bit. When I answered your other sister just say I've maybe they're both crazy as they're actually quite similar in that they're both seven and eight years younger than I am. And so our relationship is

08:45 Very different from growing up because of the doing more babysitting with them as they grow up. And so we're not same age siblings. We ate. We have actually a lot more in common, you know, as adults. And maybe I do it from my other two brothers that are just two or three years older than I am and so, especially as it relates to, perhaps the idea of

09:16 Being Allison open in the community. They are more accepting. They were always maybe have a different generation. And so knowing that different openness has in a we have been just a different relationship and it's easier to be yourself when you know that that other person is more accepting of naturally accepting. So yeah, it's always been good, even though I was rooming with them.

09:48 I didn't come out too. Damn. It's a long time later because I grew up Church very strict and Evan being gay was unaccepted there. And so you can bury those kind of things. That's what your collagen and again with AIDS and the fact that it was still unacceptable, you bury, those kind of things that you go off to. What are you doing the military? And in that was free. Don't ask, don't tell. And so, then you are.

10:21 Living in denial because you might understand who you are, but you're living without.

10:32 Embracing going through life, without embracing. A portion of yourself becomes more important to say, how are you and bracing yourself. Now if I could go back and say as a twenty-two-year-old where I'm not embracing a part of myself and then what would you do differently? Probably nothing because I couldn't do anything different. I wanted out of life and then assess and no one helps you access assess. How do you handle that? Aspect of your life? Is this the right path? Is this the right path? Is this the right path?

11:14 We can talk about it and you're surrounded by things places to go and things about a relationship with a nice that's kind of developed over time. One of the cool things that we have was those events in the community, like a first Friday, one of the greatest memories I have with my knees is this. We would go to when they would put the artwork out. So how do we get to know each other? We would say, you pick, you, you look at the yard and say, what would Noir in like us or POP3 and wives. What was she disliked a sore? Bottom, three and why? And so we would make the and vice-versa about that person getting to know each other.

12:14 And a part of that getting to know each other became a time where is like, okay enough is enough getting to know each other using that venue was like, Norman was the first person that I came out to in the family. And, you know, what is also part of a greater conversation that was being have two churches to whether or not it could be an accepting or unaccepting and and so wanting to be involved when we can make a difference. Wanting to say, okay, you can live in denial because once I got out of the military was very openly outside of the family or at least saying, here's where we're at and whether or not they want to do anything with that. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. I remember we were at 2

13:14 Artful Dodger that little restaurant bar, which is now closed and reality.

13:27 I remember you coming out to me and I was like really touched. I was like, yeah, cuz I think we were brought up his bike ride was going on. I was going to be out of town for Pride as you and yours. So then you were like, oh, yeah, you know, I did not know that and will because I shortly before that I can that I had come out from my mom.

13:49 At Lisa's being firepan. I can't remember if we just look at her thing done or not. And I think she told you.

13:57 She tell you, she did not tell me that. The only thing, mom, your mom has expressed to me was that when we go to family, gatherings, and when there is a negative conversation or a negative statement, about the lgbtq community, you were very upset about. There's nothing you can do about it. We didn't.

14:23 Argue or say there's an alternative to that because we're very good at making. Declarative statements. Not any conversation and end. So knowing that you were upset about that then encouraged me to say you're upset for a reason. We should have deeper conversation so that cuz that you understand that we're all upset, but now we can talk about it. Yeah, I think.

14:53 I do. My mom told me that she had told you that I was pants, but I don't know if she is never addressed that with me. Don't think she's ever said, was you being upset by hearing negative. Well, she told me that she told you.

15:12 I don't know what's going on. But then she also. So I was like a little, like, thinking that she had told you, I was like, kind of upset. I was like, you don't get to like, like you were saying like, it's like a controlling of like this is what the family was in. This is what they don't know. And so she I thought she had told you and taking that control away from me, but she had it and also out of all the people that she could tell the family and make sense with Me an Angel years later. She told the angel like she had me to Angel Eyes that you can't keep telling people. You control your own, you can be out in open, but sometimes you get to choose when you're open and out, and

15:50 It is your choice thing was generation. What I didn't also understand or fully comprehend. Are you upset? Because you have friends in the 21st century. And so what you're seeing as acceptable behavior or what is how we treat each other.

16:11 Could be different in that because of what you feel.

16:16 Is proper treatment of people and so is, the level of upset is a personal upset.

16:22 Pac-Man upset. That's not our society should be upset versus versus, where is the level, and what is it? And then allowing you to say at some point in your life. Here's why I was upset. And so that has been a journey for you. Well, I also I mean it was easier by that day.

16:47 Yeah, I mean will and then you came with the family and I was like cool. They're like we're we're slowly like moving into Kelly people know like I said he knows but I don't think that they really want to talk about it or ask me anything about coming out and then what was the experience like growing up? It's not discuss. Yeah, and so but

17:27 Yeah, well, I can't imagine because like, if I was upset by the family, you have been going through that for seven years. Yeah, and like and then not only with the family, but Church, the college, the Air Force. But so I just can't imagine. For that long and like not just getting so mad at a certain point at or just so disheartened. I feel like

17:56 True, you can be disheartened. And so when I joined the service, my first experience was there was two 20 year olds that

18:11 Were caught as being gay or homosexual, one of them took it so hard that they tried to kill themselves. And you do in the hospital. The other one was it's no big deal. You don't like it. That's okay, but both get kicked out of the service, but seeing those two extremes one, is that I started saying, okay, that's an interesting cake. I was glad that I saw this person respond to whether or not, that's what he was feeling. He's got to go to work to put on his uniform show up and whether or not he cared what people thought.

18:54 It did a good job of showing that he didn't care, but the service kicked them out. And then so then as you go along through life, and this is pretty, don't ask don't tell you don't explore that. But at least you don't have anybody to explore it when I was assigned in Oklahoma, this

19:17 More young. People were coming in. There's a shift and viewpoints from Old School to new school. And I, with a, don't-ask-don't-tell being in place, then was able to go out and explore, go to clubs. Go to bars, get to know people separate from the military people. And so creating friendships. I have relationships and friends and Enzo's, but separate from your military life. So, now you have two different lives, but my experience in Oklahoma was very positive because everybody was very accepting. There was only a few bars in the military members that show up. And so there's a community within a community and, you know, each other, but again, you just appreciate, you haven't seen them in these places.

20:17 Do we know each other?

20:21 Then you move into my last assignment was in Idaho. And at that a sign that we were still in, don't-ask-don't-tell, and this is fine.

20:34 Same kind of idea you go out and you get to know the other people within the unit that might be gay. But the unit was just like my first unit whether or not they were pursuing they were certainly kicking everybody out. And so that you know at my 24th year I said this has got to change but I can't do it from the inside because now I'm risking my retirement. So I retired. And when I relocated here, I said, I need you now live my life differently. Not pursue what I could have done through a military security clearance, but

21:18 Come explore this aspect of my life, get involved in the local community of the lgbtq community. Try to figure out how to be part of that. And a lot of that was just okay. What's the hair? Look it up on the end. Thank God for the internet. And so then you just find ways to get involved into the. First thing I did was I looked up the local gay community and they were adopted a highway and was a Saturday for cleaning up the highway and then so we met at a local restaurant breakfast and I was just showing up to the local restaurant but somehow they like, are you here for like, yeah. Okay. Well, once again, everybody was so welcoming and friendly and and so those developed those relationships, just the belt mute then get involved deeper and, and

22:18 Still, that's what I appreciate about Harrisonburg. Giving me the opportunity to move from.

22:27 Not exploring that aspect of my life because you have a you have a good reason. I don't know. I'll do it later, you know to maybe focusing more on developing that aspect of my life to be more myself. And so for you, how do you do that without waiting 57 years?

22:52 8 Race. Cuz I realized that I was on bajor and gender-fluid when I was thirteen, and I realize that I was by earlier than that, but of course, my mom, or is it was a spring break that she do not language programming. So she was in Guatemala and so my dad was here.

23:21 Watching me mother babysitting, cuz he's my dad. But but, you know, and I told him and he was

23:35 So he was like, oh, well, you'll never know what it's like to do because you don't have a penis. I sent confronting him about this and just remember saying that you don't want to hide what God gave you, which is ironic as he doesn't really believe in God, and

23:57 Yeah, I will talk to her about that. But I don't want you to hate the body, you have a difference between having self-esteem issues and having gender dysphoria, which like you just can't always help. But so then he was so negative about it, but I've been told him that I was like, whatever and then

24:23 Freshman year of high school sucked.

24:26 And then I can ask my parents and then like I didn't I didn't really come out at school. Very much was also, I was on the girls cross-country team for a while. So it's very hard to be like, oh, yes, here I am on the girls, cross-country team, not a girl also.

24:45 You know, there's a gay people in locker rooms stereotype, and then obviously, I've known for a long time and like,

25:01 My obviously, you know, my name was Naomi and that's a pretty feminine name and years year that it can change it or if it's fine. I went to college and Richmond is really, really cool. And has a very accepting and diapers and especially beasts. You like pronouns or just part of your introduction. Like, there's a whole light system. So you put in DC. Like this is the name that I want to be called. Like that's how I myself is now. But like that, in any official stuff, still comes like,

25:39 Naomi. So I went to college and I started was like, I'm in high school. I spent like whatever. I don't care, even though I didn't hear what it was like, it's hard to be like

25:57 Make those. You are able to be more freely yourself because you weren't your mother's daughter. Yeah, in the house. You can do your own self expression because you're

26:09 My mom wouldn't have been accepting but it is like, Amber is great and his friendly. And I and honestly, I was like far as like townhouses sides. Go, great. Wonderful accepting. But being in Harrisonburg High School N B, A. I got a couple like binary trans people in Grey's around being a bother, but if I'm going until it's still like trying to get in that, like they that gender neutral and I'm like also explaining why you want? Those pronoun. Is exhausting,. So then I went to school and then

26:51 You know, I like have been getting on. My mom might be getting on you about using the right pronouns more and more. I'd like

27:00 It's easier when you guys do it, because I know that it's like, it's not that you are invalidating me. It's just like, a hard switch, like, you respect me. And you care about me.

27:12 But then it was actually it was kind of like I was like, wow, I really do not like being called Naomi and like this is it's just, you haven't in like can I change my name? Never find a name? Cuz I really I like my initials and I like that, like and names, you know, so it was really. Yeah. I said about like, in January to be like, I need to find a name and I did. So that's been really nice. It was a good step. Yam. You feel. What's your next step? Do you feel? I can't figure out. I mean,

27:52 At some point, I will legally change my name likely before I graduate, even though you can get your diploma under different name, if you see you through the night with you sing, but I'll just do it and, you know, change all that legal stuff. And then I've started the process of selling the family, like we were using Nora, and as much as possible. Self-correcting. When we could say that a grandma didn't comprehend. She's not ready to go there. I actually, after I haven't laughed, we're sitting on the couch. I'm like, what, how do you open up conversation? And then the only thing we have for TV with Netflix. And so Netflix have queer eye for the straight guy. You met my grandma watch. I tried to didn't work and didn't work shoes on comfortable watching that. So it wasn't a conversation starter. It didn't.

28:52 Is it go from tell me more about that, even from my own ass back versus being able to say, here's why they are using they. In and said, Mom wasn't able to have that nor was the other half of the her sister. And Uncle. Frank was said that he wouldn't use the name Lauren and I was like, what? Like when you come back Matt. His name is a fax. I'm not sure. What, his legal name is. His first name is not back. Yeah. This isn't any different. I mean like you can still use she her pronouns and just be like, this is my niece. Like, you don't have to

29:39 Which is the egg shells that we walk on this fine also, so I

29:46 I had experience about struggle of like there's two different parts of my life between like my family and myself and it's like I don't like it for me. It was really disheartening to be around family and then be like, look at your daughter and like this strong young woman and it's like, that's not me. And you're not, you're not seeing me. And I do understand that it is a lot to ask, to be able to be like, I have a complex identity and you need to understand it. So yeah, it is interesting.

30:19 What I appreciate is better terms created by the community itself. I don't have to explain all my feelings. I have one word for it now, and that encompasses so much and so that I am so glad that that even if it seems confusing because there's so many turns, one word, expresses so much and it actually helps you identify an end. So I think that's the one thing that I really appreciate about a community self-identifying and really helping young people old people. I wherever you're at him and your journey. I get that. Yeah, that's me. I can, I can express myself a whole lot better. Yeah, I think was those, I think there is like a tendency to like,

31:19 A bracing. Like I am was like if you know what I want to do it, you don't need to label, but I think I like having those labels and having those things out. There is nice for people to be like, oh, yeah, I identify with this and like being able to have a word because I mean, it's annoying to have all this nebulous feeling and this is I don't need to take 10 minutes to tell if I can say one word and then you go to your home. I mean, the problem with like, non-binary people are still like, I don't know what that means and you're like, I don't know how to look like and then also like my understanding is so much more even in my work.

32:08 Is the relationship important does this relationship matter? And if it matters, then I'm going to have to step back and take more time and go into.

32:19 More beaches more sharing, and if it doesn't matter so much, you just where, where does okay, it's it's parked that over here. They ever get to the point that this is important to them, and they want to do more genuine, Lee then will Gage be what you need. What you need from me, what I need from you and this Mutual support Society inside the subset of our family clan that. Yeah.

32:57 Just genuinely genuinely or just like you said but genuine is a like rapper famous person. I was just thinking of the drink. I really need a glass of wine getting in touch cuz I haven't done that for a long time. Just say it matters. And so like you said using the correct pronouns using the correct name purposely when you hear us doing it, then you know, it matters. Yeah.

33:43 I want to make sure that even when I don't do it, it's not because it doesn't matter.

33:55 Yeah, I mean consciously think about it differently. Yeah. I know. I understand like I mean you have always had a hard time with like using the gender pronouns of our cats feel like I know but that's just something that like doesn't always stick in your brain or like doesn't. That's right. It's not as like upsetting to me, but I appreciate I know your cat is a female.

34:27 But,

34:30 So,

34:33 Tell me, what do you need around? The family, like Army, but you can do it. If I don't know what I can do to help except for a few more radical. Like, if I'm more radical than do, you look camera comparison? I'm comfortable at the place that I'm at and see if they want to know more that you cared, then then I'll always be with five siblings that position in the family. And that always take precedent over these other things that make us up. We go back to our used, our childhood. Where were you in the family Dynamic growing up versus where were you in its now that you identify as something that you bring into the family, but my goal is

35:29 There are other families who also had trouble talking about it. How do I put myself out there so that if those families need a resource it comes to me and say yes, I want to know more and that's why I stay involved in church where they aren't accepting, but I'm very out. So they know and many have come and talked and it was a very important relationship. And so I think just being available being out and open and open to being out when necessary I think is

36:07 Is a way that I identify as myself.

36:13 Wait and see how the next day. Unfolds one day at a time. Have you watch that episode of queer eye with the gay Pastor that they do? Yeah. That's the one that I turned on the show Mom. She didn't want to go there. I watched it again. And I was like, yeah. Yeah, and no, I'm not ready to be a. Yeah, cuz I want a water tower water. I think it's always like I know a lot of

36:56 Gay people have been hurt by the church or struggle to have that relationship inside the church or struggle to have a relationship with God. So I think it is really important to have clear people that are like, yes. I am. I am clear. But I am also question where I am also do it. And I am also a Muslim like my face and my sexuality, or gender are two things that can coexist. And like, I have this relationship with God because people have been more accepting than not and whether or not they're accepting, they're not on the except they have inquired about when he married a very positive things. So, why would you stay, why would you be at a church? That doesn't accept. Because

37:52 The church may not, but the people local do that. And so is the people over organizations and institutions and surrounding yourself with good people that want to make a difference. No matter where they're at is always good.

38:10 I know we talked about it and I time, but do you think that like having someone like that when you were?

38:16 Like are you trying to be like someone that young you would have known that I was gay since I was four straight to the point that you can be self accepting 55 years later as a long way. There was no one in my life that I could say. I identify with that. So I think that's important being available for someone to identify with that and then being open. Yeah, that's what I found out in my life. And I think I can just important.

38:55 Well, that sucks.

38:59 I don't know how many coming to the end of our time here, and

39:09 Anything that our friend summer, do you have anything that that you would ask to to wind us up?

39:22 I think we're good. I ate. Yeah, I think having you as a role model in the community is really great. I mean, I personally don't have that trouble with religion or anything like that. But I am I'm proud of you. Whenever I'm I mean, I I mean, I heard about you is my senior and you've made my best. I put your art on a t-shirt. That was a great year by Naomi t-shirt.

40:07 But at the time, it was a naomichi.

40:19 Well.