Aditi Fruitwala!

00:01 Okay. All right. So this is Poonam, age 38. I am. It's September 8, 2024, and I'm with my friend Aditi

00:13 Hi. Age 39.

00:16 So Poonam Dubal, Aditi Fruitwala. And we're recording in the Jewish community center in D.C. where Abhi is currently doing gymnastics class.

00:26 Yep.

00:27 With Shelley.

00:28 Whatever slivers of time we can get.

00:30 Yes, exactly.

00:31 Exactly.

00:32 We're squeezing this in, so let's. Let's jump in. So tell me a little bit about where you grew up. What was it like? It's the same place that I grew up. We both grew up kind of in the Dallas area.

00:46 Yes. I grew up in suburbs of Dallas. So first I was in. Okay, so actually, so I was born in Delaware, and then my family moved to Buffalo, New York, and then Houston, Texas. But when I was three, I moved to Arlington, Texas, and that is where I spent the majority of my childhood. And then I moved to Plano for high school. So it was really like the suburbs of dfw. I felt like it was just a very suburban life. I think it could have been a suburban life anywhere. I felt like the things that I did for fun were involvement in the Indian community, which could have been anywhere. And then going to the mall and going to the movies and going to Starbucks, and that was like, what we did, and that was places that we met. And so it felt there was nothing particularly unique about it. Like, when I go back, I have a hard time even remembering, like, when people are like, oh, I'm visiting the general area, I don't actually know what to tell them. And I never got to live in Dallas proper. Like, Dallas is a very cool city that I never actually got to really experience.

01:42 Same. Yeah, yeah. Growing up, I was like, well, Irving is very different than Dallas.

01:47 Yes.

01:50 Cool. So tell me a little bit about your family. So where's your mom and her family from? Where's your dad and his family from? What do you know about your grandparents?

02:00 Both of my parents are Indian, from Gujarat. My dad's family is from Surat. My mom's family is also from Surat, but also Mumbai and Nasik Pune, a couple other areas. And I don't know. I know almost nothing about my dad's family. My dad's dad died when my dad was little. My dad's mom was still alive, but she just wasn't very. She wasn't. I guess she wasn't involved in my life. And I actually don't know the degree to what she was involved in.

02:25 My dad did she still live in India?

02:27 She lives in India.

02:28 Okay.

02:29 And, yes. But I knew that she was a very stubborn woman with diabetes. Those are the two things that I knew about her.

02:36 That's what we know.

02:37 Yeah. And my mom's side of the family, I had heard, like, lots of stories about both my Nani and Nana. My mom's parents lived in India and have since passed away, but they were alive when I was little. And so I have memories of. Look, I have memories with them. And the stories that I heard about my family were that their parents. So my mom's great grandparents were very involved in funding Gandhi and revolutionaries and hiding them in their various houses. They were rich at the time. And since then, it sounds like family money has dried up and doesn't exist. But, like, at the time, they had houses to store people as they were planning and doing things. And. Yeah, it's like, it's history that I, like, I really wish I knew more about. And I think it's definitely the people who had that knowledge are now gone. And I don't think it was ever really captured.

03:35 Sure. So, yeah, that's, like, super powerful, though.

03:40 Yeah, it feels like it's. Yeah, it feels very cool to know that, like, that's in our family, even if I can't. Even if I don't know the, like, specific contours of it, like, to just feel like I have that base of, like, revolutionaries. Yes.

03:54 That is pretty neat. Okay, so tell me a little bit about your relationship with your parents and, like, maybe just, like, a fun memory of them and, like, you know, sort of. How is your relationship with them now?

04:07 So my relationship with my parents has really, like, ebbed and flowed, especially this weekend. We've been talking a lot about, like, us at our teenage years, and I was, like, not an easy teenager. I had a lot of feelings and took all of them out of my parents. And so I. Yeah, so I think it's. You know, I think it went down and up and up and down. The relationship. My relationship with them now is, I think, much, like, it's great. It's like they're visiting actually in a couple of weeks. I'm so excited to see them. We, you know, they live in India, and so I don't. I don't get a lot of actual time together. I think I'll probably get to see them once a year total in my life going forward.

04:43 Wow. But in India, are they living.

04:45 They're living in Surat.

04:46 In Surat.

04:47 So, yeah. Yes.

04:48 Okay.

04:48 Yeah. So. So, yeah. So they Don't. I don't. They're not like, a constant. They're not a presence. But they, like, I know. Excited to see them when I. When I get to see them. Happy memory. They were. I. It's hard. I don't have, like, they were really good parents to children. And it's something that I think about a lot. Like, as you know, now that I. That I am a parent, people are good, I think. I think a lot of people are sort of suited for parenthood at different stages of people's lives. Like, there are some people who are, like, good parents to adults or good parents to teenagers. I think my parents were really good parents to children. Like, I remember I have, like, a lot of, like, happy memories of them. Like, on the floor, playing, teaching me nursery rhymes, like, doing. Playing tea party, playing stuffed animals, playing house, playing. Like, they played with me and they saw the value of play. It was like. It wasn't just as much as they valued formal education. They were also, like, you need to be spending your childhood years. Like, we're not doing flashcards. We're doing, you know, we're pretending to be dinosaurs or whatever. And so I just. I have sort of, like, sporadic memories of them. Like, one memory is, like, when I was 3 and my. I made my playroom the closet under the stairs, because it was like, it was a small house, we didn't have room. But also, like, what more could a child need?

06:07 Right.

06:07 A closet is a huge room for them.

06:10 And, like, very Harry Potter, which is great.

06:12 Yeah. And so I would have tea parties in there, and I would make my parents come in, but they couldn't. And so they would have to, like, fit their little hand in and fit their head in. And then, like, you know, but they would. But they would do it, you know, and so, like, thinking about, like, thinking now about, like, how kids this age are constant. They are just constantly asking you to play with them. And I think it is, like. It is exhausting. It is draining. And I know that my parents did it anyways. Like, I know that they were the type of parents that were like, yeah, on the ground, really doing the thing. And so I, like, now I kind of appreciate that more than I ever even knew to appreciate it before.

06:47 Oh, that's so cool. I love that. Yeah. Your parents have always been really sweet. And tell me a little bit about your sister, Ruchi, and how would you describe them? How's your relationship with them?

07:00 Okay, so Ruchi is hot. So Ruchi and I are so different. I think that was Always really difficult for us. I think we both had like the classic little sister, big sister relationship where she really looked up to me and I was really annoyed by her. And that was just like, you know, that was just a dynamic. I think that was just going to happen. So I think that there was that for a lot of our childhood and you know, layered on top of that is that we were just, we were and are just very different people. Like, we just had different, like goals and values and ways that we made friends and who we made friends with and what we wanted. And it just like, it felt like we were really different. I think now as an adult that that has narrowed. Like, I think now actually when I saw her recently, just a couple of weeks ago and it's like now we know where our similar interests lie. Like, we actually like, we both really love reading, we like going to the theater. We like, now we know the stuff that we enjoy doing together. And so we can. We have enough shared interest I guess is what I mean, is that to like actually enjoy each other. But it took until adulthood, I think to like discover that in ourselves.

08:01 Gotcha.

08:01 And so now we have like, I like, I love seeing her. I also think the thing that kind of has made this. She has been a very good masi to Abby. Like when ABHI was born, she said that she was going to visit him every other month. And she has done that. And he's two and a half years old. Every other month.

08:18 Every month.

08:19 And so she will come to wherever we're living. It was Rochester before and now it's D.C. and she'll spend a weekend and she like. And that means a lot because we don't really have any other family. My parents are in India and you know, and so like, we don't. There's no other family member that ABHI knows other than Ruchi. And so, and she knows that I think she takes on that burden and she like really shows up. And so I think there's also like, she's a very good masi to him. And I think that that has also made me appreciate her as a sister more.

08:49 Oh my gosh. That's really special. That's really, really special.

08:52 I feel really lucky that she's like, she's doing that because it's very easy to not like, she's like, you know, a single woman in her 30s living in New York City. Like living the life. Like she has, like, she's like, she's really like, she is the person who uses New York City to its like Utmost, like she goes to all the things and she lives a very cool life. It'd be very easy to just opt out of doing the boring thing of like playing with the two year old and she doesn't.

09:14 Yeah, she's like, nope, I'm there. Oh my gosh. That's really cool. Well, so we kind of talked a little bit about childhood. But tell me like, if you can maybe one of your happiest, like, childhood or like adolescent memories or if there was like a particularly like, interesting or hard one, you can also share that.

09:33 Okay, so this is probably. This is such a silly thing that this is like what comes to mind. And it's not. It's. It's a happy one only. It's a. This is both difficult and happy and also incredibly silly and basically nothing. Okay, so this is the one that I think of because I think it really actually shows like, the ways in which my parents were good at this. And again, like a thing that I've been thinking about a lot recently is that. So I had a stuffed panda bear that I loved. I loved. I just called him Mr. Panda. Like, no imagination there. But I loved Mr. Panda.

10:01 I do think I remember Mr. Panda.

10:03 It was very important to me. Yes. And when I was, when I was. Can't even remember the age, maybe four or five, somewhere around there. I took Mr. Panda on like a, on an airplane with my parents and I left him on the airplane. And so we got home, realized that we left Mr. Panda. And my parents tried for three days to get him back. Like really like called every single. Did everything they could, called the Albuquerque airport, called the Delta or, you know, whatever. Like, just did all the things. And like I. To our knowledge, my parents knowledge, like the airlines really looked like really trying because they knew that this was, you know, a thing that's like. And so didn't find it. So my parents went out and found an identical panda bear and gave me this identical panda bear and said, you know, here's Mr. Panda. And I like, hugged Mr. Panda, you know, and then looked at him and said, this is not Mr. Panda. And my mom, without missing a beat, was like, this is not Mr. Panda. This is Ambassador Panda. Mr. Panda had to go to China to save the pandas because they're endangered and send his cousin, Ambassador Panda, to keep you company. And like, I actually think I remember Ambassador Panda. You met Ambassador Panda? Because by that point I had Ambassador Panda.

11:16 Oh my God.

11:16 And so, yeah. And like, and that was, that was all I needed. And like, Ambassador Panda was the Panda that I had and I loved him. And I'm so. I was also so proud of Mr. Panda for going to save all the pandas. And so I got this pride of this panda that I had raised, went off into the world, sent him off.

11:30 And he's doing great things.

11:32 Yes. And.

11:32 Oh, my gosh.

11:33 So that's a happy memory. That's a happy memory. I think the other. Actually, the other thing that comes to my mind is like a. What my childhood was is that my parents really encouraged me to, like, they fostered an independence that I am like now, like now I maybe always have, like, very appreciative of. And I flew by myself on a plane when I was 7 to go visit my mom's best friend in Delaware. We were living in Arlington and my mom's best friend was living in Delaware and had a kid my age. But I didn't know her and I didn't know the kid.

12:05 Yeah.

12:06 And so. But my parents, like, put me on a plane and I went there for a week or two and it was like, terrifying. I was an extreme. I still am extremely shy kid. And like, I don't remember having actually any, like, no offense to mom and friend or whatever, but like, I don't remember having like, particularly like, any fun. Like, I'm not like, oh, we went and did this cool thing. But it was a big experience for me, like getting to be on a plane by myself and like having like the flight attendants, like escort me and wearing the like, accompanied, minor or whatever, unaccompanied. Yeah. Badge. And that was something that, like, that was a gift that my parents gave me of like, trusting me to figure things out on my own and trusting that I was going to be okay when sometimes I, like, I wasn't. I pretty sure I was like lonely and scared and during that week. But, like, allowing me to be that so that I could like, grow resilience and I don't know. I don't know how much they, like thought all of that through when I was seven years old. But, like, that's definitely the consequence of doing that. Because then the next year when I was 8, I took. I did the same thing. I got on a plane by myself to go to London and then India.

13:09 Whoa.

13:09 And like, that was a trip that I like, felt confident doing as an eight year old because they had sort of built that before. And so you traveled.

13:18 I knew this. You traveled to London and India by yourself at age 8.

13:23 I think you like the parent, you know, they like family met me on the Other end. Right. Like, at no point was I by myself. Like, I wasn't, like, walking through the airport by myself. There was always a flight attendant. Sure. Right. But, like. But I was, like, I had no family. My parents weren't there. No one, no adult was there that I knew. Wow. And so, like, I remember, like, being on the plane and entertaining myself for, like, 15 hours. Right.

13:44 Like, yeah, like, that's significant. And, like, makes so much sense now, like, thinking about how much you've, like, traveled and, like, lived abroad. And I. I've always just sort of been like, damn, you're where you're doing what? And, like, wow. I've never made that connection.

14:02 I think that. Yeah, I feel like my. I don't even know that I, like, when I started doing that, when I moved abroad when I was after college and stayed abroad for a couple of years and traveled and stuff, I don't know that I made the connection of, like, oh, my parents did this, but I think that my parents did this, you know, succeeded it. Yeah.

14:17 Yes.

14:17 Yeah. Yeah. Like, they, like, they, like, they trusted me to be independent and, like. And then you. The kid figures it out, you know, and so, yeah, so I think that that was like, both the. I think both of those stories, in different ways are both, like, happy and difficult memories, because it was not. It was not easy. And I remember the trip to London specifically, just being like, I was really homesick by that point. I had been gone for, I think, like, two months or something. I was, like, really homesick and really sad and missing my parents, but also, like, I was doing it. And so I also remember just, like, you know, you know, I could. I could do this. I can be tough, like, you know, and so, yeah, that's just like a. Yeah. I, like, I was able to learn things about myself and what I was, like, capable of.

14:57 Oh, my gosh. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm sure you had to dig deep there. So, okay, when you were little, what did you think that you were going to be when you grew up?

15:05 So I think it, you know, I think it changed a lot. So, like, the answer for when I was, like, really little, what I thought I was going to be is I thought I was going to be a rainbow. Like, when, like, you know, like kindergarten or first grade, they're, like, bringing a photo of what you want to be, and I brought in a photo of a rainbow.

15:21 Oh, my God, that's so precious.

15:23 The teacher. I actually told this story at the college graduation. I gave the commencement address, and I was like, here's what I hope for all of you. So anyways, like, I. Yeah. So they bring in a photo. So I brought in a photo of a rainbow. And my teacher said, you know, why do you want to be a rainbow? And I was like, when. When the sky cries, rainbows come out after. To try to make everything better again.

15:44 Oh.

15:45 And so, like, there's just. And, like, that's a. Yeah. Wow. And so I. Like, that was what I wanted to be. And I think I maybe spent the rest of, you know, the rest of my life trying to figure out exactly what that meant as a job. Job.

16:01 How well does this align with rainbow?

16:03 Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I think at some point, I wanted to be a judge, actually. Like, I think, like, when I, like, you know, I started keeping journals. Like, I'm sure you did, too. I started keeping journals, like, really, really young. Like, probably about seven or eight, actually. Seven or eight. Because when I started traveling by myself, my mom was like, you're gonna want to remember this. And so start keeping a journal. So I. And so in those journals, when I look back, it is like, I want to be a judge one day and didn't know what the judge. What a judge was. And, Kurt, like, today, I no longer want to be a judge, but I am. Like, I am in that universe.

16:36 Absolutely. Oh, my gosh. That's so precious. And I also don't think that I knew that you gave the commencement speech at your college graduation.

16:44 There's no reason why you need to know that. Just the last time I told that story, which is why it was in my head.

16:49 Wow. But still, that's really cool. Okay, and then, like, I think last question about, like, childhood, because we knew each other from childhood, like, from approximately age 7, I think, is sort of like what we're like, the age that we came up with. What's a memory that you have of me? Or like, a favorite memory that you have of me and, like, our time together when we were kids.

17:09 Okay, so I have two that are coming. Oh, God. Okay, there's so. There's a lot. Okay, that's. Okay, Tell me your favorite one. Okay. All right, I will say. Okay, so I will say the favorite one. That's sort of like the. Yeah. Okay. So one of my happiest memories, we went to a llama farm in Oklahoma at some point. Our families.

17:26 Arbuckle Wilderness. Yes, we went to Arbuckle. It was like a drive through. I remember that.

17:31 That was it. So it was, like, one thing that was really fun is that our parents Were really close. And so it was, like, we got to travel together as families, and that was so fun for me. And. Yeah. So, like, I just remember getting to feed llamas with you, but really, I think the memory I have of you is, like, when I started swadi. Like I said before, I was, like, a very shy kid and just, like, didn't know how to make friends and didn't know how to talk to people, and you were, like, the popular kid in Swadh. Every. You knew everyone. You were friends with everyone. You were so, like, so, like, friendly and fun, and, like, everyone wanted to be friends with you. And you were friends with me. Like, you, like, oh, my God, I'm gonna start crying. You, like, reached out and, like. Like, I don't know. You, like, offered your friendship, which was such a big thing for, like, a kid who just, like, felt like a weirdo. And so. Yeah. So, like, it just, like, it meant a lot to me that, like, you wanted to be my friend.

18:23 And then, like.

18:24 Yeah. And then I got to spend, like, you know, most Saturday nights with you before we went to Swabia on Sunday morning, and we did the same thing every Saturday night. It was so fun.

18:34 Disney movies, staying up, talking about, oh, my God, yes, so much Taco Bell.

18:41 Yeah. So it just, like. Yeah, you were just. You were always so, like, open and kind and generous, and, like, it was. I think, at that age, it felt like few people, like, made the effort because it took a lot of effort. Like, it took a lot of effort on your part to, like, reach out to a kid who, like, didn't know how to reach out. And so, like. Yeah.

19:02 Wow.

19:02 I just. I felt very lucky for you.

19:04 I don't even, like, remember, like, that. I just remember, like. And now we're friends.

19:10 You. You did it. You, like, you fully made it happen. Because I was, like. I was too shy to do any of it.

19:15 Oh, my God.

19:15 And so, yeah, you made that happen. And you were like. And you didn't need to because you had plenty of friends.

19:20 Oh, my gosh. But obviously there was something. I was like, this person.

19:23 I want to be friends with her.

19:24 She looks fun. That's really sweet. And I love you, and I'm glad that even though I don't remember the details, I'm glad that I did that. Okay, tell me about a person who has been one of the kindest to you in your life.

19:39 Well, other than you. Okay. One of the kindest. I mean, I can just talk about my friend Sarah, who. She's just been a Real constant in my life. Like, I have, like, lived with her at several points in my life. I've lived with her when, like, I didn't know where else to live. Like, there would be, like, months where I was like, I don't really know what I'm doing with my life, or I'm in between jobs, or I'm in between, you know, whatever, in between schools or something. And she would be like, come to New York City and crash with me. And so, like, it's like, I've just. I've had her as a person since she was a college roommate. So for the last 20 years, I've sort of had her, like, I'm not gonna say on and off, like, on in my life at all times, but, like, we've been in the same space a lot. And there have just been moments where she was really kind to me in a way that. Not, like, in a way that changed the course of my life. And so the first was actually me studying anthropology. I think that there was something. She was an anthropology major, and there was something in me that was like, I don't want to do that because I don't want it to seem like I'm just copying her. Like, for some reason, there was something about just like, that's hers. Like, that's hers, and I shouldn't intrude on that. And I don't even know why she knew that I felt that way. But there was one day where I was at work and she came into work and, like, made a whole thing of, like, a little packet that was like, congratulations, you have been accepted enthusiastically into the Anthropology Department. And here's your welcome letter, and here's this. And, like, she, like, made this thing of like, we want you in this department. Like, you are not an intrusion. You are, like, a welcome asset here. And the next day, I switched my major to anthropology. And I'm so happy I did. It was such a good fit for me. And so, yes, that was, like, the sort of the first point where, like, she was like, you know, you. You're allowed to. You're allowed to do this. The next was, she and I were doing a big project together on race and racism. And I decided that I wanted to actually switch to mom, like, from anthropology to law. And I, like, took her out to dinner and sat her down. I was, like, very nervous to tell her because it was going to affect her life, too. And without skipping a beat, she was like, that's perfect for you. I think it's exactly right for you. That's the way your brain works. Let me help you. Let me help you. Let's find out. And so that was another point where there was permission and encouragement to do the next thing. But the biggest one. The biggest one was actually Abhi So when she. When we decided that. When Shelly and I decided that we wanted to get pregnant, we wanted a known donor, if possible. And, like, we had a lot of friends who volunteered, which was very nice, but we had, like, a number of friends who, like, just called and was just like, you know, if you, like, we're in the mix, we're happy to be in the mix. And it was very sweet. And we were okay, maybe. Yeah. So we. So, yeah, so we had, like, we had a couple people volunteer, which was really great. And. And Shelly and I would visit the conversation every now and then, be like, no, what are you talking about? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We'd be like, oh, maybe. And then, like, but not, you know, not. No conclusion. And then Sarah called and was like, I'm just gonna say this out loud, and, like, no offense, but, like, you know, like, if. If you want Pasha to donate, like, we would be honored. Like, we want you to be part of our family, and this is, like, something that we would love to do together. Yeah. And, like, as soon as I, like, got off the phone with her and told Shelly, we were both immediately like, oh, yeah, this is it. Like, it was so clear to us. Like, it was like, that was the answer, but maybe it was the answer that we didn't even want to, like, suggest in case it couldn't happen.

23:16 Oh, yeah.

23:17 And that, I think, is, like, you know, one of the biggest gifts you can give someone and, like, has clearly, you know, like, revolutionized my life. Like this, like, I have. I have this amazing kid because of her and because of Pasha. Yeah. And. And, like, it's just. It's one of these things where, like, I've told a lot of people, you know, we're not. We're not secretive about what, like, Abhi's origins. We don't want to be. That was part of the reason to use a known donors. Like, we want him to know where he comes. You know, like, there are a lot of reasons to use an anonymous donor, too. So I, like, don't judge that decision. But, like, you know, the reason we wanted to know donor is because we wanted him to know, and so we're not secretive about it. And also, a lot of times when we tell people, like, oh, yeah, this was, you know, Sarah and Pasha. I get A lot of feedback from people of just like, oh, my God, I can't believe they did that. I would never do that. And I get it. I totally get it. And Sarah is very unique. Like, I think, like, Sarah is just, like. She's very, like, if it's mine, it's yours. And, like, she has. Not just that, but, like, I want to, like, bolster you up and, like, fulfill your dreams. And so I think that, like. Yeah, I just. I think that she has been very kind to me in, like, to go back to the question.

24:28 Yeah.

24:29 Like, kind of generous in a way that's like, here's half my soul. Here's half my heart. Here's, like, take what you need. Here's my blood. And. Yeah. And, like, I feel like there are so many times where I'm, like, I feel bummed that I don't have, like, a bigger family. I feel bummed that, like, whatever. There's, like. There's things that, like, I look around and see, you know, And I feel bummed that, like, now that I have a kid, like, other kids will have, like, lots of cousins and aunts and uncles and all this. And, like, I don't. You know, he doesn't have that. I don't have that. But I have, like, I have so much. I have, like, so, like, I have, like. I'm so grateful for my friends because I think that they, like. Yeah. Like, they have, like, been. Not just. They have been family. They have been family.

25:13 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was actually gonna be. One of my questions, was like, tell me about your chosen family. Yeah. Because they're really beautiful. And then there's, like, layla in the mix and julian, and then sarah and pasha, and you guys are currently living together, and it's, like, just a really cool. It. Like, just from what I see, like, just a really cool experiment. And, like, what does it look like to, like, try to build community in this way?

25:39 Yeah.

25:39 You know, and, like, that's amazing.

25:42 It has been really, like. It's been. I'm really glad that we did this. Like, it has been a really fun and meaningful way to, like, do the first few years of his life. And, like, the payoff is just so clear when we get to see, like, sarah and pasha's relationship with Abhi Like, abhi, like, lives with them. He doesn't know anything other than living with them. And so he is, like, so close with them. There are times that he will, like, go up to pasha and, like, say something to pasha, but then. And totally ignore me. Like, he'd rather talk to Pasha. And, like, in those moments, I'm just. Like, this worked. Like, this is the thing that we were. We were hoping for is that, like, you would have a bond with these two people. And so, yeah, like, I just. I feel like. Yeah, I feel really, like, grateful that they are so committed to Chosen family as well, because they don't. They don't need to be, like, you know, and so, like, I'm grateful that they really wanted to do this and that, like, and that we did it and that it worked in so many ways.

26:43 Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. And ABHI is obviously amazing and adorable. So what. What do you do for a living? We were talking a little bit about how you got into the legal field eventually. So what do you do?

26:56 So I work. I'm a staff attorney for the aclu, which is a civil rights. Like, it's a large civil rights organization. And I do. Okay, so the technical job title is that I work for the center for Liberty, which encompasses five women's rights, repro rights, LGBTQ rights, disability rights, and religious freedom. And so I work.

27:23 That's a lot.

27:24 It's a lot of different things. And each individual rights that I just named has, like, 30 attorneys working for just that. Right. So, like, 30 attorneys work for LGBTQ rights, for example. I work. I'm the only attorney that works at the intersection of those rights. So I'm like. I have a really weird position in that when there's things that implicate more than one issue. That's mine.

27:48 Okay.

27:49 So one of the things that I work on, for example, is I work on, like, family policing issues, like, trying to prevent, like, child welfare agencies from taking babies from black and brown. Black and brown moms. Yeah, primarily. Which this country has started with chattel slavery and the Indian adoption Project. And we have a pretty bad history.

28:08 Yeah.

28:09 And so. Yeah. And the reason that I get to do that is because it's, like, a women's rights issue and a disability rights issue. Like, about 70 to 80% of parents with intellectual and developmental disabilities are subject to investigations, and their children are removed at very hard, high rates. And so these are sort of just like. These are just populations that are targeted because people think they care people. The state. The, like, white supervisor state thinks that they can't parent. And so, anyway, so that's. That's one of the things I do. It's something that I love to do. It has become harder after having a kid because I just see it everywhere. Like, I just. I'm like, you Know, but, like, it's. Yeah, so. Yeah, so that's one thing I do. Another thing I do is religious refusals work. And so it's trying to prevent the right of the. Trying to prevent entities to say that they have a right to discriminate against LGBTQ people. And that's because it implicates LGBTQ rights, but also religious freedom. And that's, like, the ACLU does care about religious freedom very deeply. And there's, like, it's, you know, it's complicated to figure out where those two intersect, how to think about the law, and what's the, you know, what's the right analysis there? So, like, that's my job. And then the third thing I do is some transgender justice work when it implicates women's rights as well.

29:20 Okay.

29:20 So there are some things. Like, for example, there's a bill in Kansas that defines women throughout their statutory code really narrowly. Like, a woman is someone who has, like, an ova and, you know, like, that sort of thing.

29:34 Yeah.

29:35 And so that. That implicates LGBTQ rights, for sure. Like, the purpose is to be exclusionary to trans women. Yeah, it also. There's. There's women who are born with different body parts. Right. There's CIS women. And so it also implicates that. And, like, it, like, defining who a woman is, it just narrows our, like, you know, our ability to, like, be our full selves. And so. Yes. So those are sort of the three buckets that I work on because of the intersection of rights. And so it's like. It's so cool. It's a fun job. It's kind of a scatter job. A lot of different things.

30:07 It's so, like, there's so much responsibility, and there's, like, so much. It's just. It feels like such important work, you know, especially in a time when it feels like rights are, like, always. Always being, like, rolled back. That, like, I love being able to say, like, I have a friend who works in the aclu. She's. She's. She's working on it, guys.

30:31 I hope so. But, like, I. I feel like I feel really lucky to be able to do this work. I got. I got a job at ACLU SoCal, like, three years out of law school, and I just, like. I kind of couldn't believe that that was happening. Like, it was, like, your dream job. It was my dream job. Described it, and I couldn't. Like, I couldn't and still can't believe that I get to do this work. It's like, it's and, like, sort of exactly what you're saying. It makes me feel. Even if this is illusory, it makes me feel like I have a little bit of. I'm not even gonna say control. It makes me feel like I'm able to do something.

31:01 Yeah.

31:01 Just. Even just a little something. And, you know, a lot of times when, you know, every time there's. Every time things happen that, like, seem to, you know, roll back our rights or we are nervous about an election, you know, Shelley will suggest, like, is it, like, do we want to consider moving abroad for a couple years? It's something that we would like to do for Abby anyways and, you know, that sort of thing. But my, like, my ongoing feeling here, at least at this time, is that, like, this is why I have this degree. Like, this is the purpose of doing this, is to actually, like, fight when things get hard. And I have the. Like, I have the luxury of being able to do that. Like, I actually have a degree and a job that, like, enable me to do that. And not everyone gets that privilege. And so, absolutely. I, like, I feel. I sort of. I feel an obligation. Like, if I'm like, what am I here? What am I doing then? If I'm not. If I'm not doing this now? Sure.

31:55 Yeah. It's a lot of responsibility. It's some measure of power in a time and space where things can feel very, very powerless. Yes.

32:06 Yeah.

32:06 I'm a good way to put it. For the work that you do.

32:09 Thank you.

32:09 So tell me a little bit about Shelly and how you met her.

32:12 She's the best. So I met her through a friend who you actually met yesterday. Her name is Chrissy. She'd love a shout out because she is very proud to have done this because she did a great job with the setup. So she essentially messaged me pretty out of the blue and said, are you single? I have a friend. And I was like, I am. But, like, is this really a match or is this just, like, you happen to know two people? And. But I was like. I was living in London at the time, so I was like, when I'm in dc, I, like, I'll meet up with Shelly. And we did. And, like, sort of instantly, we were like, oh, Chrissy was right. She actually did think about this and this. Like, this could really work. Like, we're like, you know, it was just. It was a great first date, it was a great second date, it was a great third date. We spent, like, you know, that week together in D.C. and then I moved I was living in Sydney for six months.

33:10 Yeah.

33:11 And so I moved to Sydney and we, like, kept talking while I was there. And then we. I moved to the Bay.

33:16 Yeah.

33:17 And Shelly was graduating law school and was just like, I. I don't know, my next step. Like, Shelley was like, I could go anywhere. I could. Like, she's like, I want to leave D.C. and I don't know where to go. And, like, should I come to the Bay? And so it was a, you know, it was a wild move because it was like, we hadn't known each other for that long. We had always lived long distance. Like, it was like, it was a huge leap of faith, but it was also like, she had to move anyways. And if it wasn't. If it was going to work great. And if it wasn't going to work. Okay. Like, it was like, you know, a thing that we tried and then we could, like, back of it even. So anyway, so she moved to the Bay in August 2012.

33:55 Okay.

33:56 And we moved in together because we were like, let's just see. Let's see if this works. What's the use of. At least in our crazy brains at the time, what's the use of living in the same city for two years and then moving in and realizing we don't live well together? If you're changing your whole life, let's change our whole life. And so, yeah, so we moved in together and it worked and it was great.

34:17 Oh, my gosh.

34:18 Yeah.

34:18 And here you are.

34:19 She's just the best.

34:20 What was one of your favorite things about her?

34:25 She's like. She's so. She's so empathetic. She's like. She's kind and she's generous and she's like. She's gentle and she's smart and she's just. She's deeply, like, emotionally attuned. Like, she's like. She's very. I feel like she has, like, taught me how to be. How to communicate and how to be better at that and, like, how to. How to, you know, honor what I'm feeling. And, like, she has really guided, like, I have grown so much with her in just, like, emotional depth and understanding.

34:59 Ah, that's amazing. Yeah, she is. She's wonderful. Tell me about, like, maybe one of your happiest memories together.

35:11 I mean, it's so cliche to say our wedding, but I just. It was just. But yeah. Yeah, I think. I think. Yeah, that one up, you know? Yeah. So it's not like this is not the only one, but. Yeah, I think and maybe. Maybe it's not even the happiest. Maybe I'm just, like, forgetting. I know that I'm forgetting a bunch of stuff, but, yeah, I think that, like, our wedding was just. It was extremely personal. It was like. It was a small. Wow. Can we actually pause? Okay. Okay. So. So, yeah. So our wedding, it was like. It was a small wedding. It was like, you know, in a friend's backyard. There weren't a ton of people there. It was really personal. Like, Elle, you know, whatever. Like, we wrote every part of the ceremony. We were really involved in getting. I don't know. We were. We did. It was a very personal wedding. Like, it was not, like, it was not cookie cutter in any way. It was like, a lot like, we. I was saying this last night. Like, we baked the cookies that were the dessert for the wedding. Like, it was a. It was really, like, a labor that came from within. And getting to, like, see the payoff together of not just, you know, the wedding itself, like, was beautiful, and I'm very happy with it. It was like, a perfect day. And, you know, like, all of that, like, the wedding itself as an event went well, but, like, getting to see the payoff of, like, the life that we had built together. It was like, I love. You know, I love her so much, and I love, like, who we are together so much and sort of, like, looking around and being like, this. This is our life. Like, these are the people that we have, like, spent time pouring into. And, like. Like, these are. You know, I don't know. Like, there was just. There was just something about, like. Like, if this is what my life is, I am, like, I. I could die happy. Like, this is. Like, this. This feels really good to me. And I, like, I. I think that Shelley and I. That meant a lot because I think, like, she and I do a good job of, like, I think, building together really intentionally. Like, very rarely do we, like, stumble into something that's, like, an accident, like, where. And she is a very good. We're good partners in that way. And so, yeah, I think. I think that's why, like, the wedding was such, like, a symbol of that for me.

37:19 Yeah, absolutely. So, see. Okay. And really, really quickly. Is there. I say really quickly, but that's a hard question. Is there, like, a difficult moment with, like, in your time with Shelley that, like, stands out to you?

37:42 That's interesting. I have. Gosh, it's hard. I think. I think that we. I can't think of, like, a specific difficult moment, but I think that, you know, Something that we sort of. This is, I think, gonna be like a lifelong thing to learn is when we're both going through something together, but through two different vantage points and trying to kind of, like, deal with our own shit, but, like, support each other through it.

38:18 Yes, I know what you're talking about there, you know. Yeah.

38:22 And so, like, it's like. Like, you know, it's a, like, one here. I'll give. I'll give an example that's like, definitely not like, the hardest thing we've dealt with, but here's like. Here's an example of. I feel like this is sort of like a. This is where shit gets bumpy and it's kind of a constant, you know, education and how to. How to navigate. So I wasn't able to have a baby, and that was really, like. That was very hard for me. And one of the reasons that, like, there was many things I wanted. There was a reason, like, there's many reasons I wanted to get pregnant. One was that I was very excited to breastfeed. I, like, In California, at ACLU SoCal, like, a big portfolio. A big part of my portfolio of work was lactation rights. I just, like, got obsessed.

39:06 Oh, interesting.

39:07 With that. Like, I like. I. And I kind of. I, like, wrote the handbook for it. Like, I wrote, like, the know your rights guide to how you advocate for yourself and, like, when you're. When your boss is denying you lactation accommodations or whatever. Even actually today, currently, I, like, recently settled a case on behalf of frontier pilots who wanted to pump when they were flying the plane. And so, like, you know, like, lactation rights has always been. It's like, a real niche type of law. And, like, it's a thing that I've always really cared about because it's, like, such a barrier to, like, women entering, like, you know, the workforce, but also just public spaces and da, da, da, da. It's like such a symbol for so many other things. Yeah, so I was. And so I just. I also just, like, through my work with lactation rites, I, like, learned so much about breastfeeding and was so excited to do it. And so I didn't get to. Because I didn't get to be pregnant. And so there would be times when, like, when Abby was born that, like, the thing that we were navigating was like, my. Was. Okay. So the thing that Shelly was navigating was, like, just, like, the burden of breastfeeding. Like, she had to be the. She was doing it right. She had to be the one to breastfeed. Like every single hour or pump every single hour. It was like, it was time consuming. It was painful. Like clogged ducks and middle of the night feedings. And like, that all fell on her. And so she, like, needed to be able to complain about that, which is totally fair. And I was dealing with my own feelings about not being able to do that. And, like, I needed to process that. And that was. And so there have just been like a couple of times, and a lot of those have been around, like, just various parenting things because we're differently positioned as parents in a lot of different ways where both. Both feelings are totally valid. No one's doing anything wrong. And sometimes we have to, like, figure out can we be there for each other or is this actually something we need to rely on our friends for? And that's not to say, like, were secretive about it, but just like, maybe I'm not the one who should make her feel better about the burden of breastfeeding, and she's not the one who should make me feel like maybe someone else needs to help.

41:05 Yeah. Like, do we pull in our support system here? Because this is a little bit too, like, maybe personally triggering or it's like I'm an emotionally reactive space right now.

41:15 Yes, exactly. And so I think that, like, those types of things, I think those are where our conflicts are. And that's just gonna be an ongoing thing of like, just every now and then when that pops up, trying to make the decision of, like, I want to be there for you, but maybe I. Maybe I can't, and that's okay. It's. Yeah. Yeah.

41:32 Oh, wow.

41:33 Yeah.

41:33 Thank you for sharing that.

41:34 That's.

41:35 That is hard. And that's a hard, like, journey to be on as well. Like, to have that desire and then, like, not be able to fulfill it in the way that you had originally hoped and dreamed.

41:49 Totally. Yes. And then, like, kind of adapting to what the new reality is and then like, getting excited about that or like, finding the things in that that are wonderful as well. Yeah. But also, like, letting go of that dream.

42:00 Yeah. And like, there's grief there. There's totally grief there. I hear that we have just a couple of minutes left. Tell me a little bit about, like, what does the future hold for you? What. What do you look forward to? And like, what do you want, like, future generations to be able to, like, know? So it's like a two parter. A two. A twofer.

42:22 Oh, man.

42:23 Let's start with what does the future hold?

42:24 Okay. The future. That's. Oh, man. I don't know. I think that. I guess. I mean, and I don't know. For this reason, I feel like I could have answered what the future held for. I think I had a pretty good idea of what the future held for just me. And then I met Shelley and we had, like, a good answer of what the future helped for the two of us. I think we are still learning with a. With a child what feels right for us. Plus, child. Like, we're still learning because he's still not formed in any kind of way. But, like, even so, like, he doesn't have real opinions about what he wants to do yet. Like, he's just now forming that, you know, and so, like, is he. I don't know. Like, I'm having a hard. Like, sometimes Shelly and I talk about, like, we're not even sure exactly where we want to live permanently through his childhood, like, where we want to raise him, because we don't know quite yet who he's going to be. And, like, they're going to be. Like, it's possible, like, LA is a better place for the type of child we have. It's possible DC is a better place for the type of child we have. You know, like, there might be London, there might be, like, another city that's more right for him and therefore right for our family. And we're just not sure yet. And so it feels kind of harder now as we're adding members to the family to answer that question. But I can say generally what I want is I want to live abroad at least one to two more times. Maybe that's with abhi, maybe that's post abhi. I want to figure out how to travel more with him because I think I've been like, nervous about doing that. We did that a lot. Whenever. Yeah. So I need to, like, learn how to do that.

44:08 Yeah.

44:08 I want to. I want to keep doing this job that I'm doing. Like, I think, like, that is one place where I don't feel the need to, like, shift in any way. And I feel really lucky for that. Like, at least that gets to be stable and Shelley gets to be stable, and I have that foundation. Everything else can revolve and grow around it.

44:21 Yeah.

44:22 And that feels really, like, good and lucky. Yeah.

44:26 And then. Okay, like, 10 seconds, 15 seconds. No, I think let's maybe not. Let me just thank you for sharing all of that and thank you for sharing your story. And I can't wait to see, like, what the future holds for the three of you and the four of you, and who knows, maybe the five of.

44:48 You @ some point.

44:50 But you're a beautiful person, and I'm honored to call you my friend. A PP Love you. I love you, too. I love you, too.