Adrianna Benson and Phoebe Wagner

Recorded October 15, 2021 Archived October 15, 2021 01:11:35
0:00 / 0:00
Id: hub000410

Description

One Small Step conversation partners Adrianna Benson (51) and Phoebe Wagner (68) discuss labels, assumptions and mental health. They talk about seeing what's inside a person, rather than putting people in "boxes".

Subject Log / Time Code

Adrianna Benson (AB) talks about the divisiveness in society, particularly with family. Hearing about One Small Step made her heart sing! Phoebe Wagner (PW) wants people to stop yelling at each other, and start listening.
AB and PW talk about labeling and how destructive it can be. Phoebe shares her story.
Both AB and PW believe mental health is a spectrum, and labels make it worse.
AB says her biggest sadness is "othering". PW agrees and says we need to see "both, and".
PW talks about the death of her twin sister.

Participants

  • Adrianna Benson
  • Phoebe Wagner

Venue / Recording Kit

Partnership Type

Outreach

Initiatives


Transcript

StoryCorps uses Google Cloud Speech-to-Text and Natural Language API to provide machine-generated transcripts. Transcripts have not been checked for accuracy and may contain errors. Learn more about our FAQs through our Help Center or do not hesitate to get in touch with us if you have any questions.

00:03 Hi, I'm Adriana. I'm 51. Today is October 15th, 2021 and I am in Waterbury Vermont and I'm here with CV for one small step of storycorps.

00:19 And my name is Phoebe Wagner. My age is 68. Today's date is Friday, October 15th. 2021. I'm in Brattleboro. I'm here to speak with Adriana. And she is my one small, step conversation partner.

00:44 Excellent. Thank you. Both and Phoebe. Why don't you ask Adriana this question first? And then Adrianna, you can ask Phoebe. Once once you're done is Rihanna, what made you want to do this interview today? That's a great question. There has been a lot of division division in our country, but particularly in my family. I feel pretty lucky to live in Vermont and work for Howard Center where

01:12 We have conversations, even when it's hard with my family. It's been way more challenging over the last five or six years and it's gotten progressively worse and the and the dialogue I've seen.

01:28 On TV, and in different places has really Disturbed me. And when I saw one small step, it made my heart sing and I wanted to be part of it, because I really do think a lot of things could be solved by communicating.

01:43 And talkin rather than shouting over each other and trying to convince each other that our way is right, so I'm happy to be here.

01:54 And Phoebe. What made you want to do this interview today?

01:59 I saw the outer post, some publicity for one small step and it just sounded right up for many of the same reasons that you decided. I think that people on the extreme opposite sides of the political divide are, are not talking to each other. They're, they're yelling at each other without listening and I tend to believe that we all have much more in common than we do have differences and love. The difference is sometimes can enhance what we have in common.

02:35 So, I just thought it was the best idea.

02:41 Excellent. Thank you both. I'm the next thing I'm going to do is I'm going to paste each of your bios in the in the message, the chat function one at a time. And what I'm going to have you do is read them exactly as written. And then ask a question about the bio. So Adriana, why don't you go head first and read Phoebe's bio.

03:05 Do Phoebe's bio says an artist and a senior? I'm a sexual and have been single All My Life by choice. My friends are my family. I value, kindness and generosity. My life was quite difficult for many years, but along the way I experienced five life-changing moments that I called Miracles. The first event was the sudden Unexpected death of my identical twin sister. I fear for our planet because of global warming overpopulation and the destruction of the ocean.

03:34 Sophie B. I would love to ask you about your five miracles.

03:39 Mark they basically were all episode. I went from hating something to falling in love with it. At the first one was botany. The second one was. Poetry. The third one was China, the fourth one was Art, and the fifth one was French. So I know how do French and do art everyday and it changed my life completely completely.

04:09 At age 55, I became an artist because I haven't stopped doing arts and son.

04:17 Do you mind, if I ask you more about what brought you to Art? I was an art major in college, and my grandfather was an artist and an art teacher. So, I'm really curious about how you fold it into your life. And how you went from hating it to love you. Well, I mean, I didn't fold it in, maybe I did, but I started beating very fast. I had a voice in my head that said, you have to build a human. You have to build a human. And to tell the truth. I have had voices outside of my head for many years, but this one was not telling me anything. Harmful. It was telling me something that have to build a human. Well, I immediately thought I could do it. So I decided. Okay. I'm going to listen.

05:05 So I took out flour and water and paper and Bill to paper mache. Life-size woman in a chair took me about 3 months and I haven't stopped doing arts and some. Wow, that's incredible.

05:22 What is it about? Building a human that you, you think stuck with you? Where do you think that came from?

05:31 That never occurred to me to question it, where it came from. But

05:37 I think.

05:40 I think it was telling me to build a life and my life has had, has a lot of difficulty in it before art, and even after art, but art was a way to

05:53 Find me.

05:55 And I think that that was building a human.

05:59 So you're the human. I love that. I love.

06:03 I'm too.

06:06 A lot of people see art as a skill or something that you're born with or something beautiful that you create but I see art more as a way of speaking to the world and working through who we are. So yeah, it sounds like you came to that at 55. What other are you doing? I just go for a ride to painting. I do drawing. I'd make jewelry, I everything. I mean, any box that comes into my house, turns into paper, mache of some sort.

06:42 It's just taking over my life.

06:47 Beautiful.

06:49 Sounds like it brings you Joy. It does, it does.

06:54 I can't live without it. So it's beautiful. This is the best thing that ever happened to me except French took over my life too. So that was three years ago. So French add you mind sharing how friends came in. So I'm going to mention, proves to me. I had taken French in high school, but hated it and was mute in high school. So I didn't speak up and she mentioned proves to me and it said, well, maybe I can read that in French, and then I never read proust in French, but I suddenly just tumbled over the cliff into this miracle of French becoming an absolute Obsession. So I've become fluent since 3 years ago.

07:41 I hope to go to friends and the spring if all goes well. Wow. So now I read exclusively in French and I speak French everyday.

07:56 Do you do speak it with other people in France, how I found a language Exchange Place that people can you speak happening less for them, and half and French for. Wow.

08:12 And I'm assuming that's via video conference like we're doing now. Yes. Yes, there is definitely a lot of good things and I'm an introvert. So I don't mind staying alone a lot, and doing art and meeting people this way.

08:37 The nice way to do it. Do you mind sharing more? You said you were mute and I suppose because of home. I was afraid of my father. So I would, I had to speak but it's cool and other places I just

08:59 Didn't want to speak and I didn't.

09:06 Life was difficult for many years. I mean, I've had times in my life when I was mute for 9 months even as an adult and felt like I couldn't speak anywhere, but not since French Has Come Into My Life.

09:25 You sound like french open the door. Two different conversation. Can you share more about that?

09:33 Well, the difficulty my love. You said you worked at the Howard Center in that running about because I I know a little bit about things like that.

09:48 And so my life was very difficult because I was diagnosed with severe mental illness, and was put on disability and basically, live my life in and out of hospitals. And

10:06 I met somebody in Vermont to actually help me to understand a lot of things and then she did it through. Basically, just accepted me unconditionally and loving me in in a funny way into being.

10:23 And you know, one of the questions we can ask each other is what who is the most important person in your life. And she was even though it was recent relatively recently.

10:35 She taught me nonviolent communication to, which was amazing.

10:41 Unconditional love and nonviolent communication are wonderful tools.

10:50 Do do you feel comfortable talking about the mental health diagnosis? And what that experience was like for you, was that something that happened to you as a young child? Or when I was about? Well, I mean, I was hospitalized when I was 18 and then when I was 19, and then I wasn't diagnosed, I was diagnosed but they didn't share their diagnosis with me until I was about 29 or 30 and then they started telling me. But I no longer believe the DSM labels. I don't believe they exist. I think their constellations in the same sense. The constellations in the sky are constellations their imaginary, they tell a story but they're imaginary and I think diagnosis and labeling people is the worst thing possible to do to somebody who's suffering people suffer, but they don't,

11:50 For from the label, but they don't suffer from The Entity called schizophrenia or bipolar, or anything else. I don't think it is an illness.

12:01 And I could go on and on about that but I won't I love that you are able to to speak to that because my daughter had a really hard time. I obviously I've worked in mental health for a while. I worked in a group home and I worked at a camp with adults and children with disabilities. And so I studied psychology in college. I wanted to be an art therapist. Never got there. That's a different story. But I was gifted was coming to Howard Center and working there and I've worked in different ways. And during covid-19 daughter, really struggles of, she had a friend try to commit suicide and she was the one that that found her.

12:49 And so, and supported her through that and then that friend stopped talking to her. And that she already had a lot of stress going on from covid and had already started self-harming.

13:04 And her own, she was going down her own journey and

13:10 That put her over the edge and she was put in a hospital diversion program, be because my husband, and I made the conscious choice, not just under to a hospital because I work in mental health, has my husband's friends had, had that happen to him in high school. So she went not to a hospital but to a different, a step down or something place. Or yeah, it was a hospital diversion program, which is instead of sending them to the hospital. They go. It's specifically specifically teams struggling but, you know, at a crisis level and I feel like we were lucky that that program was about, we had to fight cuz our insurance won't pay for it. So we had to fight to get her in there and then they were the best and it was only 10 days, but those 10 days gave her tools and instead of saying she's broken, which is what she was saying. Before that number.

14:10 Been broken there. Something wrong with me. What's wrong? With me? Looking for something to label herself and social media went a long way in making that worse for her and for her friends. And this 10 days where she was unplugged and in this place where she could be with people who felt the same way. She did and have those conversations and not worry about a label. Her counselor, that was there in the team. That was there supporting her. She kept looking for that label. And they kept saying, you don't, you don't need a label that what's going on, and having worked in mental health and struggles. I struggle with my own depression, my parents divorced, things as well.

15:01 Both of the child in older and I believe that mental health is a spectrum.

15:08 And that we all slide up and down that scale throughout our lives. Yeah, and I think some people

15:15 Either don't have the Lasix, you know, the life experiences that might push them up or down that scale. They have a little more privileged in that they don't have those experiences and everybody had them at some point and I I kind of agree with you. That the DSM is a it's a useful tool but it does cause labeling and it does push people into these boxes which then puts them down the path of medications, which is a whole other topic. Is my daughter actually before she went into the hospital. Yes, so it caused that Spectrum to slide even higher and make her feel even worse about herself. So I wish we could see mental health, as a spectrum and accept people.

16:10 On both ends and give them the tools. They need to manage it themselves. And if that occasion is something that they want to use to take medication for blood pressure cuz around while I don't like it, but I'll do it at the lowest as possible. Like, so rather than saying you have bipolar.

16:32 I think that guy that diagnosis for me is particularly painful because my aunt and then the way she was treated, after that diagnosis by her family and her doctors completely changed. Yes. Yes and her life negatively because of it. I think those labels are really hard. I completely agree with you. The thing about medication is really bizarre. I mean one that causes the symptoms that you are already labeled with a lot of the time. My label was schizophrenia, but they started attacking on personality disorders and all sorts of things because they cut.

17:22 And it's funny how the Things become a self-fulfilling prophecy in terms of if they treat you a certain way, you respond to certain when they they put it into that same box. But medication was horrible. And then one that one year, I started taking Abilify and you know, I didn't like it. I hated it. But through a long process of elimination. I limited all my psych meds and I stopped doing art.

17:57 And so slowly. I realized it was one of the drugs I had been taking. I've been taking a lot but I started back on Abilify and 10 days later art came back to me. Wow. So now I called the drug that induces my artebella day. Not, you know, antipsychotic or whatever, whatever it's not. But and I wish I didn't have to take it, but I have to take it if I want to continue doing art. So, every other drug was harmful.

18:35 And the fact that you were aware of that and able to wean yourself off and then do you mind if I ask you if you advocated for yourself or did you have people helping Advocate or whether both, are you mean to get off the medication and find yourself? Well, this person that helped me was all for it, but I didn't actually tell anybody because I knew I could do it. But certain medical professionals would get up in arms and say, oh no, you'll be compensated and all this stuff and it just I presented it as fait. Accompli to the the person I speak of, but she was thrilled. The end. She was totally a supportive of me when I decided to take Abilify again because I wanted to do art.

19:29 And who can explain that, but

19:33 I love that. You mentioned that Abilify cuz the drugs Trigger or repressed things in your brain, right? That's a medication works. So I have again I studied art in Psychology in college and had my grandfather as a as a role model. Interesting. Road and his biggest pain and having Alzheimer's was losing his art, as I was studying in college thinking about psychology and art. And then I was out in the world and I'm working in the group home when I'm working at these this camp and then I go into the world and I'm working for insurance companies which didn't last very long and then, you know, nonprofits and then lined up and Howard Center.

20:30 And I look at that and I always wonder like I feel like artists this is going to sound kind of out there, but I really believe it has the ability to skate that edge. Mommy call mental health, which I really think it's just being able to explore all facets of who we are and being able to slide up and down that Spectrum without being labelled or considered.

20:58 Wrong or bad or broken and I feel like if you look at like all those art history classes. I took that were agonizing a lot of those artists could actually we're really in touch or were labeled as I love my husband and I love live music as you listen to live music. And if you look at the musicians lives, they often have very challenging lives. And I think part of that, is because of Fame, that's not very healthy. But also, I think it's their ability to slide in and out of that. Again. That's Backstrom where we, that are people crazy where they don't fit in the box of what we say. They are, I have a question for you. Can you tell me you said you were raised Catholic and I wondered if, and also that you have some conservative views and I'd love to hear

21:58 A little bit about both. If you're still Catholic and or, you know, what have beliefs and what conservative views do you have? I was raised Catholic. I went to Catholic school all the way through high school. I went to an all-girl Catholic School. It was hard. I subscribe to the spirituality of the religion. I was born into and I wouldn't change growing up in it. I always fought against the discussion as I aged and got to know more people and learn more about the world. I always railed against

22:46 We Are The Chosen. We are, there's one true. God, that was never, my thing I didn't, but I actually had lots of discussions about that in high school and like butt. And then, as I got out of the world, I moved to California after college and got to meet so many people, and got to have conversations with people from the Jewish face with people from Afghanistan, who are Muslim people from India. People who chose their own religion based on what they believe, I met Buddhist from Vietnam, friends from China. My boss was from China, so I got to meet all these amazing people and have conversations. And I, I'm curious about people, I want to know about you, but I want to hear all your details and so learning that it really

23:42 Change me. I kind of lost religion in college. I would go to mass every once in awhile at college. But again, I started meeting people and started questioning and railed, even more against the, the ones you got. And you know, why do only Catholics Get to Go to Heaven if there's all these different question, what does that even mean? And how to do is like, as your mind opens up a new question?

24:11 And what's interesting to me is, when I moved back to the east coast, we came to her mind, which I'm so grateful for. It's, it's a really beautiful place that takes I think takes good care of people and is open in lots of different ways that other places are not. And I go back to visit my family in Buffalo.

24:36 It's such a small contained world. It's very racially segregated. It is very culturally segregated. I grew up in a very rural white culture.

24:53 You realize that the world is full of all different people and I I don't I don't under you actually have conversations with them. I don't think you can sit across from somebody and hear their lived experience and tell them that they're wrong.

25:09 That their beliefs in their experiences. I just don't believe that's the case. That's why I really believe in these conversations.

25:21 You get to learn all about them and it doesn't matter who's right, or who's wrong. So what conservatives used to have?

25:32 That's a great question. Right? Because it depends on who you're talking to you. So, here in Vermont. I'm a little more conservative about

25:47 I have lots of friends.

25:52 Who are Multicultural from California, but I'm willing to be open and get to know people and I come up as soon as my conservative views are more.

26:09 Based on my childhood things that were told me were.

26:15 True, gay is wrong. Great. White is right, even though those warrants, that those words were never said to me, ever. By my parents. They are said to me now by my brother's which is heartbreaking, as I realized how conservative I was, but I feel like my Natural Curiosity.

26:42 Allows me to step over that at times.

26:46 So,

26:50 I guess that would be considered conservative may be financially, independent independent sister Gerald, who was like, 6 ft tall and a little scary. She's my favorite all-time registering to vote and we talked about what that meant, and we talked about political parties. And we talked about and she really

27:23 Didn't hit it hard, but she had it like, you get to make the decision. You don't have to follow what your family and the origin, and she was really good about that. And I'm so grateful for that. Cuz I registered as an independent gives me the option to choose. So I voted for Republican president ever voted for a republican Governors, voted for Independence, and the person than what they do their actions.

27:59 I don't get the whole party thing again. Yeah, why do I have to sit in this little box to fit in this box? I'm with you there. I mean boxes like any label. It's just a way of of of labeling a group and saying you belong in that box and you can't get out. Nothing you do can be different from what's circumscribed by the Box.

28:31 And if you don't fit in the box, then people either or unwilling to engage with you, or want to push you away, or want to label you as mentally ill or where is out there. Yes, and it's so black and white. Like, there is no, and I believe everything's great black and white, or just the ends of the gray Spectrum, black and white right now is the biggest argument actually both literally and figuratively, but we keep putting each other in these boxes right and left or black and white. Or there's always polar at this always either. It's not both and

29:31 Right, either or

29:34 Yep, and that's why I'm at the table cuz I I believe in both and I just so I don't do art as much as I would like to. I'm I keep trying to come back to it. It's been hard just with everything going on cuz my Mom now has dementia. And again, that label right, like trying to explain that that label exists, which just means that her brain function is helping her Navigator.

30:10 Wow, that's that. That black-and-white thinking comes up. So often in that unwillingness to have a conversation and it's exhausting emotionally and physically, but the art piece that I just did that CS versus them. It's a project called. Oh boy, I'm blanking on it.

30:38 It's always this quilt. Project is a quilt project. That's nationally done. She's an artist out of Arizona and she asked artists across the country side of whatever fabric they wanted. You don't have to be a professional artist to do. It is like the AIDS quilt. Exactly that. So you had to use red and blue in this color range cuz from a distance, they make purple. So her goal was to create this living artwork and she had it on display in Phoenix, but as she's breaking it down, she's Stacks it in the letters u s and each of the members of Congress are going to get 50 squares. Wow, so they will performance art as well as as art.

31:37 By making a quilt square. Exactly. So you're do you create your personal peace based on you know, what how you're moved and then you share it with the world. In this art installation and then it gets shared with people were trying to speak to the violent protests. I'm going to look it up. It's awesome. And that spoke volumes to me like her, that's what I think the world needs right now. And I believe there's a lot of us out there that believe in

32:11 And it's not either or but but and no buts. So stand stand. And that's the only way forward is really hard to do. Yes, especially in the climate that we have today of a people putting themselves at Polar Opposites to the other pole. And I'm not looking for commonalities, but looking for differences to augment their existence. They are from each other instead of

32:51 Focusing on the commonalities, which we have more of than any difference. And the difference is, I love what you said earlier. I think you said differences add. I don't know what your exact words. Now, I have forgotten, but they add a relationship. They don't? Yes. Yes. We're all more alike than we are and the difference is we have augment, our sameness are our similarities, and then handset, what they have different benefits. If you can. Look at it as a benefit to your life. Instead of a competition competition. I avoid avoid competition. It's too. It's too. Harmful is too hard fault.

33:43 But you know, it's as an artist, you know, this that a person's beauty is not in their standard features, but I'm what stands out it could be a flaw but it's what you love about a person and that becomes beautiful to you. So my daughter is hilarious. She's very verbal, has been since she came out and is constantly thinking she exists in the world of her go-to is always angry. I go to his always cry. Like that's how we release our emotions. So it's been a real, you know, we've learned to come together and be able to validate that and learn how to work through it and talk to you.

34:24 So, as she was a child, so we watch the typical Disney movies or so. We wish she was always interested in fascinated by the villains, always costly focusing on them. And at one point, I'm like, oh my God, is she going to be a sociopath? Like we like Revisited that and had a conversation. She's like, I know you were always worried about that. Like, I could see the worry on your face. She's like, put Mom, the villains are the one that makes the story interesting. And actually, they're the ones that create the story and I got goose bumps inside if you talk to people,

35:16 You get to see what's inside. The same goes to you for kids and I don't think we talked the kids enough unless we just make assumptions assumptions make an ass out of you and me but they totally they totally ignore the reality of the person in front of it. It's funny. You say that that was one of my mom's favorite lines. When I was a kid not make assumptions. They making an ass out of you and me is true. I love that expression.

35:52 This conversation is going so well, I feel like the two of you were like the model one. Small step participant. You are anticipating the questions and you're answering them before I even put them up there. So if it's really fantastic, so I know that we've touched a lot on Adriana's bio already, just kind of naturally through a conversation, but Phoebe, I wonder if you would just read it out loud and see if there's anything else you're curious about that. You want to know more about, okay, outside of Buffalo, New York in a small world Community raised Catholic and a large family, five siblings, many Aunts, Uncles, cousins and extended family members are she is one of the two people in her immediate family, circle of it left. The area that has not returned. She has been honored to have lived and worked in California, Nevada and has made her home here in Vermont for the last 20 years for their

36:52 Benson daughter, her parents divorced when she was 21 and her father of Vietnam. Remarried.

36:59 I think there's more to it, but it's not actually in the Box.

37:07 Oh, yes. I have it here. She holds both conservative and liberal views based on the life experience within my conservative family of origin. As she is considered a hardcore liberal to friends and co-workers who are more liberal. She is considered more conservative. So I would like to know how the divorce of your parents affected too.

37:30 Oh, and how it still affects us.

37:39 And my mother was a recovering alcoholic and she started her recovery and probably when I was at the end of Middle School, beginning of high school and she was open and honest with me. And so I walked her recovery with her was actually a great Masters and manifest. And I was the first one to know which she started sharing with her friends and her her AA and Away Overeaters Anonymous members that she was thinking of divorcing. My dad. So on the periphery. I already knew.

38:20 And that was when I moved out. So I went to Community College for two years and then I went to Ohio State University for two years. And as soon as I moved out, she served with divorce papers and moved. So that was pretty agonizing and my dad's a Vietnam vet and they got married less than a year after he returned from her. And so they had a really I remember my brother, my older brother who just a little bit younger than me, and I remember when our family was a family and we we we did things together. I was still love their, my three younger brothers, were a little younger than us and my youngest brothers are twins.

39:04 Don't ask more about that. So they don't have the same kind of memories that we do. That was completely trashed by the divorce because my mom stayed for you wouldn't leave. And my mom had to struggle to figure out what her next step was. So, she moved out and she moved out on the twins birthday.

39:29 I was gone. My dad, He used me and my brother the oldest to mediate with my mom less than me, cuz I was at College. When I came home with me a pamphlet to your mother, and it was always your mother and your father, which one I got married. I said to my husband, please never call me that if we have kids and I will never call you. I've been in counseling when I move back from.

40:07 From California and came back. My dad had remarried and I had a step sister and a half brother.

40:14 He's 25. So like this, they had become this whole other family that I didn't know, and I didn't know how to be part of. So I kind of fell apart, right? In my mind, moved back to her for her hometown and started her own life there. So I kind of fell apart and had to figure out. I've been carrying this and living my life, but now, I really need to face this. And how am I going to fit into this family? Cuz I want to be part of my family. So I worked really hard on that. I've go to counseling and my brother has given me a rash who, by the way, went for a counseling degree. Giving me your rashes.

40:52 Of hard times about why, why why do you need an account? Or you're just using it as a crutch? You just what? You're, you're fine. And I'm like, you know what? I maintain my car. I maintain my, how do I maintain my physical health? I think it's important to maintain my mental health 2.

41:12 Absolutely and counseling is the best thing you can do for especially for like I chose that for me and it really works for me yet. So I've worked through and I've read a lot of books. I've talked to you. I work with some amazing. I have a master's degree in Psychology and mental health. From all the people. I work with the Howard Center if you're open and you take professional development that's free to you. And you engaged. It is it is a wonderful place to learn. So I've I've worked through and talk to you and it's continuing. My mom has dementia. I'm able to talk to her about all those memories from my childhood. The youngest boys can't cuz I don't remember that much. So what they remember is her leaving

41:57 So they're struggling with that and all four of my brothers have told me, I'm over the divorce.

42:04 I bet you you are over the divorce. Are there over there? Don't know that they're over the divorce that I need to get over it. My one brother. Who's the one that's just below me? Three years younger. He was in a really difficult job. And was he and my dad have an interesting relationship because they share the same name and they've worked very closely together and my dad is a wonderful man, but has in his own issues.

42:30 And his primary lying and not being able to be honest with his kids. And so that falls heavily on my brother which my other brothers don't understand. And he was working this intense job and my with my dad and he was taking a rash of he was taking on a lot of stuff that was happening to my dad and he went, he, he had a hard time and he decided to admit himself to an inpatient mental health and as he came out of which is brave and strong. Right leg. That's a brave to say. I need help. I can't do this anymore. And when he came out of that he and I visited, I had come down from Vermont with my family and my family and his family left and went and did something so we could just sit and talk. My sister-in-law was very brilliant like that. And he just downloaded everything and he said, you know, I realized

43:26 Mom and dad really messed us up with that divorce. And I didn't say, I know I've been telling you that like forever. I didn't say that because we each have to come to it on her own and with my mom going through dementia. All the stuff is coming back up. And then I knew I told my counselor and I look forward to reliving the divorce. Again. That's what we're doing. Right? Because we're all dealing with the fact that our parents are not together. So they can't take care of each other. That my mom's alone to go through this with him in a bus and her friends and the people who support her in a a my mother was also a drinker and she died with dementia so you can relate yes. It was quite the journey. It's a hard journey was your mom. Do you mind going to ask a really personal question? Was your mom abusive?

44:27 Verbally, but not in my father, was the abusive one. He didn't see anybody, but he hit me until I was sixteen and he was verbally emotionally and in every other way abusive, but the sad thing is, she started drinking to please him and then she got a liking for it and kept on drinking and I think it led to her dementia and the rest of my family doesn't think so. My siblings. Really? Why not? No, I think they're in denial. Do they do do they deny her alcoholism, or do they do when they would not?

45:16 Because it's never been in our family before, whatever. That means. So well and drinking is socially acceptable. Never said she was alcoholic, which is interesting cuz it is a label, but my mom labels herself. Is that and so, like it brings herpes. Can she says, it's a disease that I can't get away from them? And I need the support and it's brought her a lot of good things in her life and she got sober Ryan. She did I think she's at 36 years. Maybe it's pretty. Yeah cuz she didn't come to AAA till later and that she didn't actually stop drinking right away. It's a girl never stopped drinking until she couldn't figure out how to open the bottle and her glass of scotch was water glass.

46:15 Oh, I only had one glass but it was and I didn't say that third of the bottle. Do you mind if I ask you about your twin sister? Because that's when relationship. And I don't think those of us who are not twins, can never understand it fully but watching my twin brothers and I have two sets of twin nieces, they identical or fraternal your your son's. So my brothers are yet, my brothers, are that, that's a hot topic of debate. Actually. My dad was because the science wasn't really there back then. But my brother, my one brother made my other brother do the swab test and they did it did come back as identical. So they're lucky. We never had that test.

47:06 But we both have very rare blood type. So and nobody else in the family, has it? So we and we always assumed that we were identical whether or not there was a question about a technically we acted as if we were identical throughout most of our lives.

47:24 Wow, that it's a special relationship. It's really unique. So my brothers always have that Push Pull and I don't know if that's just because of who they are in the family, we grow up and they're very competitive. So, they are equally each other's best friends, and they can be each other's.

47:43 Biggest, I want to see enemies cuz they're never enemies, but they can rescue. They can knock each other down, hard and in none of the rest of us in the family could ever have that permission to do that. So it's really interesting. So what was your relationship like with your sister? And how did you lose her? We were very close up until her second marriage to her. Second marriage was to the love of her life, but I think he influenced her to basically dumped me, because up until that point. We wrote a book together. We talked almost every week, at least, you know, she was married and had two children. So, we couldn't talk as much, but she was always there for me. And I was there for her, during her divorce or her problem. She was a psychiatrist. So, I just was partly. She was partly why I bought the label of schizophrenia for so long because she was like, I shouldn't tell me that.

48:43 In the system.

48:45 So,

48:49 So the day she died. It was, I got a phone call from my brother saying, I've been trying to text you, then. He said, Lenny, died. And I started screaming because it was the worst thing that could happen. We never reconciled. We never reconciled. We, you know, just left it as the shed, don't me wouldn't talk to me. I wouldn't talk to her because she wouldn't talk to me. It was awful.

49:20 And I still dream about her which is a blessing because it's like a visitation and I think about her a lot, but I can't bring her back. So. So even atheists that I am. I'm an atheist speaker because I

49:38 Want to learn more about the possibility that energy is what we are. And we go on, OK, Google Austin her now and has that. So has that experience changed your belief systems around that, you know, I've always converted to Catholicism and I was a kid. I wanted to be a nun which would have been perfect for me.

50:09 But I didn't believe in the things that I had to believe. I just love the community idea. But, you know, I've also met a lot of people and I'm comfortable in being an atheist, but also a Seeker because I think you can not believe in God, but also believe that equals MC square. We are energy and if neither mountain or energy is created or destroyed.

50:38 Then perhaps energy goes on after we die. So I've really especially during the pandemic started meditating.

50:51 And really reading and have gotten connected with a group from Vietnam. They do Buddhist Meditation, and chi gong. And some of the readings, speak exactly, two. That they call it in her being that we are. That everything not just human beings, but everything can exist without the other and it is energy. And I also read some Eckhart Tolle. I really like how he sees the world because he had a crisis where he broke down. I want to go on living and then came to this place of

51:32 There's something different like that is me. That's the shell of me, but what's inside?

51:39 Which I connect to that, then Buddhist belief that everything is together and you talk about it as energy, but I see those is all related. And I think a problem where we get stuck with religion.

51:54 Is that we attach it to the structure. And then we say that this structure is the only way it's the answer, the only answer and those who are outside of this answer. Don't get the reward that we got, right or wrong. Or I just want your just where is I believe that we're all talking about the same thing and that I believed that the the common denominator is love you. I think you mentioned that that person that special in your life gave you, did you say unconditional love love, and it was incredibly healing. So, there is a question on here when I was reading. It says, like who was the important person in your life? Who is the most influential person in your life?

52:44 So I wrote down the same thing, but mine was my grandmother. My mom's mom. She was a daughter of Italian immigrants.

52:52 She was fiery and she was Catholic, but her door was open to everyone when my mom's cousin. So he's my second cousin came to her and questioned his face and said what he believed in, she encouraged him and told him you follow your path. Well, and she and what's interesting is like all of us, all of the grandkids.

53:16 Felt seen and heard by her, like she knew you for who you were. She always met you where you were at and she always celebrated with you and those Fetters of Parenthood where you are responsible, weren't there to give her that pressure. So I felt loved by her for just who I was I was never told by her, you're too sensitive. I was never told by her. You need to do this because you're a girl. I was never told you should do this. You don't do that. She just showed up. And if we were curious she would like she. She showed us all how to knit boy or girl, you're all sat around and if she was sewing and you wanted to help her, she would sit you down boy or girl. It's just like if you wanted to play a game, she played with you.

54:08 And I feel like it's really powerful to be seen and heard and loved for just who you are. And for the person to create them their, their own way, their own being without being told, you are this. And you are not that

54:29 Hey girl, thanks. An extended family is a gift or at least it was for you. Yeah, and it doesn't have to just be like, and I love that. You said my, my family are my friends. I I subscribe to that as well. I think your family is a beautiful gift because they hold your history and you have that shared experience, but your friends are.

54:54 People that pick you and that you pick a walk, this life together, and it's equally as powerful. And sometimes more powerful. Do you stay in touch with the rest of your family? It's it's weird because my younger sister, and my parents are both dead. And my father, essentially, disowned me when I was 20 something at a, he did not allow my name to be spoken in the family. And and so I lost touch with any cousins. We were rarely in touch with cousins or uncles or aunts or grandparents, but I lost touch with everybody except my twin sister and occasionally my sibling when I have other siblings, but I now talk with my brother or maybe once every couple of months and my younger sister.

55:50 More rarely than that, so I make other family by making friends and having friends.

56:00 And that's a beautiful gift.

56:04 I'm sorry, Karen will jump into the political views. Okay. So when you said your father disowned you do, you know, why did he what did he ever give you away? I went to medical school and I didn't stay in medical school. Actually was hospitalized in medical school and he just wouldn't accept it. He just would not accept. I mean, we had had a huge amount of conflict before I even changed my name because I didn't want to carry his last name.

56:44 And when I know I had no way to support myself, I'd say diagnosed with schizophrenia and I was on all these huge heavy-duty medications and I couldn't work. And so I was on disability and he just couldn't accept any of that and and he had money, but he he didn't help me at all. Nobody helped me. So I was very, very poor homeless. At one point, a very poor for most of my adult life before he died. He said, I'm not leaving you any money and I'm not sure how I ended up with an inheritance because it wasn't through him. But

57:27 I ended up with a special needs trust but now handles all my money and my brother's one of the trustees. So somebody was looking out for you. I mean, I think said they knew that I would get some money but it was very very helpful because now I'm semi. And I'm not really independent because I can't touch the money but they can pay my rent and things like that. So you have a life and I can buy art supplies.

57:59 Do you think the stigma of Mental Health?

58:05 Had a lot to do with that, and I think it having energy around and your dad's Pride to was called Crazy, Aunt, Leah, and she was protecting. She was The Madwoman in the Attic in that family because she was protected from hospitals, but she was also,

58:26 Overly protected, I think because of her beliefs and socialism communism or against that, I don't really know because I was out of the family for so many years.

58:38 But I think he was.

58:40 Afraid that I would carry on the legacy of our being broken his sake. I hope that narrative changes. I would really like to see it change. I will share a lovely thing. So after what my daughter went through, she's not afraid to talk about it with people little more reserved, but we'll talk about it. And I think that's how it changes that we normal at that. We normalize that life is hard and that when you struggle

59:17 You're not broken and people have different experiences or experiences that are different from other like hearing voices or seeing things, but it doesn't make some.

59:30 Sick, it doesn't make them crazy. It doesn't make them sick. It doesn't make them bad wrong mad or anything else. It's nothing to be ashamed of. Yeah, I think the more we fear it and we shame it. So it the worse, it is to navigate, because then you have to navigate, not feeling loved for who you are and feeling broken air that something's wrong with it. I agree with that. You're an amazing lady and your art. And sadly. There's not a lot of it, but I'm trying. It has said, could you briefly describe in your own words, your personal political values or if we should talk about that? Okay, you want to start?

01:00:22 Yeah, well, the personal is political as they always said in my day and it says, true. I ascribe to the values of Stone Soup, the story, you know, that I believe in that Society should provide housing food, health, care, and education to everyone. Regardless.

01:00:52 And I think it erotica acceptance of people is, is what Society should be teaching as well. Nonviolent communication should be talked to kindergarteners on up through high school and college. I like that. So now, your turn, my personal political values. I told you, I'm a registered independent. So, I grabbed two that I want to, I want to vote for the people who were there to, to do the work and are all action and less words, right? You can say you believe in something. But what you do with your life is an actual a reflection of that. So I'm a strong believer in that. I do not like to see myself as liberal or conservative. I really don't like those labels.

01:01:43 And I have been labeled a socialist. I believe that we should take care of our citizens. I am for universal healthcare, which I don't think is coming a stick. I just think it's the right that people deserve. I believe that we should value.

01:02:01 People more than things and money. And so I subscribed to political systems that that work to further that and I don't think that one is better than the other. I have this debate with my dad, all the time about democracy and what that looks like and no no system is perfect or the best, right? They all can fall. Prey to powerful leaders and they

01:02:32 In history seem to fall prey to Greed and power. And so I believe in love and the better nature of humans and that that we can work to make that better spice that makes conversation. But I actually like valuing the people and I'm tired. I keep joking that there's a show called democracy. Now. I keep saying it's hypocrisy. Now. I'm so tired of the hypocrisies. I want to move past that like, live your values of your values. And and that's that stopped arguing about who has which value and whose values are better. Let's just work towards the common. Good flex. And you nod when I'm talking and I'm not in when you're talkin ice.

01:03:25 We can find any conflict. Really. Yeah, you know, we're finding that in a lot of these conversations people are just far more similar than they are different, which and that goes back to what we've been talking about. I think if people had these conversations,

01:03:47 That's where we get to every time.

01:03:50 The more, the more personal and the more you hear somebody Stories, the more you can relate and find in common and that's how change happens. Right? I mean if I had been told in advance that I was going to speak to somebody who worked at the Howard Center. I might have put push the like go home button. I might have said, I can't do it. I can't do it because I was very much afraid that the Karen or somebody in charge would do that.

01:04:27 And she did but it's been delightful to talk to you and thank you. It's been equally as delightful to talk to you and I will tell you that in my agency like

01:04:43 So many of the clinicians that come in out of school, come in with a mindset and then within my agency, people are able to move all around and try different things or use. It is a jumping point to get somewhere else. I had this really great experience with one of our family counselors cuz I worked at our school for social emotional, behavioral kids, and she was brand new out of college is raring to go. She was also Italian, just really like fiery and she works with our hardcore kids that have been pulled out of their homes and came from really rough homes. In most cases.

01:05:18 A lot of judgement. There's a lot of telling what to do, and then we both wound up, getting it, you know, we have been married, but we both started having babies and she was on baby number three. I only got to have one but she got three babies and bye, baby number three. She and I were having this great discussion and she said if I can go back to some of the parents that I counseled and say, I'm sorry, I had no idea because I didn't have the life experience and I wasn't able to hear what you were saying.

01:05:52 If more people could say that out loud, I think the world would be a better place, like a like and she had to live that experience herself as a parent in order to understand the depths of the problem and how it's not easily fixed. Just label it and put it in a box and say, it's your parenting. I'll tell you that's one bias. I hit, when my daughter went into the hospital diversion. It was heartbreaking to me because I thought

01:06:26 We're both married. We love each other. We give her love, and we think most of the time it's unconditional and, you know, we're not rich, but we're not poor.

01:06:38 I thought that that would protect her and that was huge because that does speak to like we always assume that if there's a problem. Somebody's fault. Yes, right. So don't you think you're broken but it's somebody's fault. It's nobody's fault. It's just where she was at the time and she had overwhelmed in her reactions and her personality and how she did that with the world and

01:07:06 That doesn't mean she's broken and I kept telling her that you're not freaking and you have all these skills on this side that can help you navigate that. But that was eventually to have experienced what you experienced is hard of the time.

01:07:23 But time does heal and it helps you see things differently. So I told my mom when we were talking about her dementia, and she was in a really hard place right before she moved. And we are cannibals in tears. And I said this is like a crucible.

01:07:40 We're going to The Crucible and we're going to come out the other side. Still wear to come out stronger for this may not be how we expected it to be. It's going to be a different shape, but you are strong.

01:07:53 I don't know. I believe that to. Yeah, this life is hard.

01:08:00 Oh, I thought another question. Yeah, so we have time for one final question before we wrap up and it it's just a simple one. If you'd asked each other, that's Adriana. Do you want to ask baby? First was I who you expected me to be?

01:08:13 Only in the sunset that your work in the job that I was fearing, he was working. But my experience with people who work in that field has been horrible, has been more abuse than ever. It has been real torture by people in hospital. So I was terrified of that.

01:08:39 But in every other sense, you are not the person I expected you to be in that I expected you to be somebody who was rigid and believes in labels as a mental health worker or something and totally delightful instead.

01:08:57 The great conversation. But I would if I had known in advance, I would have panicked and yes, you worried what? I anticipated might happen, but not at all the person I expected.

01:09:19 That's awesome.

01:09:21 Phoebe. So, I asked you the same question. Ryan was, I who you expected me to be. Can I be honest? I really tried to come in with no expectations at all.

01:09:36 I just wanted to meet you cuz I really like your bio and I was very excited. I just had this one reservation. What a straight. Stick me with a mental health, professional.

01:09:55 And you got me.

01:09:59 What's wrong?

01:10:02 Hopefully, the world is changing. I also have had that life experience myself for myself with my family, with my daughter.

01:10:12 Yeah, and boy, if I have an apology from some of the people that abused me, it would be so healing.

01:10:19 So when you told that story about that woman saying she wanted to apologize to the families. She spoke with. Yeah, that's an amazing statement. Do you mind if I take that back and share that with some of my team members that would be fine. I would like to do that. I apologies are amazingly healing.

01:10:43 Yes, when my mom apologized to me in high school, she was doing her 12 steps. I don't know if your mom ever did that with you. But yeah, she went through the 12 steps and one of them is making amends and yeah, I was a teenager. So I was like, what are you doing? Why are you? Why are you apologizing to me? Like, you're my mom stops up, but as an adult, like I understand the power of that and I think it's important for people in all professions medical professions to be able to acknowledge. And as a parent to say to your kids, like, I'm sorry. I made a mistake here. I want to share that with my team. Thank you. Thanks. Thank you.

01:11:29 Been a total pleasure.