Adrienne Villarreal and Curtis Taylor

[00:04] ADRIENNE VILLARREAL: Hi, my name is Adrienne Villarreal I am 38 years old, and today is Friday, January 14, 2022. I am in Oceanside, which is North County, San Diego, and my conversation partner today is named Curtis Taylor, and he is my dear friend and colleague.

[00:27] CURTIS TAYLOR: Hi, my name is Curtis Taylor. I'm 33 years old. Today's date is Friday, January 14, 2022. I am in El Cajon California, which is the east county of San Diego. My conversation partner is Adrienne, and we, once again, we're dear friends and colleagues. All right, so, Adrienne I'm excited to have you here and have a conversation with you. We always have conversations, either, I know, text message or memes or.

[01:03] ADRIENNE VILLARREAL: However, now anyone can listen to it.

[01:05] CURTIS TAYLOR: Everyone can listen to us. So I just wanted. We wanted to have a conversation about just your trajectory as an educator, but also the work that you're doing with the Care network, which is a grant from the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation, specifically working around school improvement. So, you ready to get started?

[01:26] ADRIENNE VILLARREAL: Yes.

[01:27] CURTIS TAYLOR: Yes. All right, so let's start off slow. Tell me a little bit about your story. What were you like when you were a student?

[01:37] ADRIENNE VILLARREAL: Yeah. So when I was a student, I remember, you know, from a young age, just really loving school. I always loved to go to school and learn. I was always pretty outgoing, eager to answer questions in class. I loved to read. The library was like my second home, you know, I did all the summer camps there and everything. I was also really into sports, so I played sports, you know, at recess, and then when I could play on a team, I played basketball, soccer. Um, I think as a teacher, when I became a teacher, I thought about myself as a student, and I realized that a lot of my education made me very strong in a procedural way. So, like, if you gave me a formula or something, I was very good at applying that right. But I couldn't really think about things in a more abstract way. So I just thought that was interesting, you know, reflecting as an adult on how I was as a student. But I was, you know, creative and artistic. You know, those are things that I really enjoyed as well. I like to draw and paint and things like that. But overall, I had a really good feeling. I think, about school all the way up until maybe my later years of high school. I would say.

[02:55] CURTIS TAYLOR: What changed for you in high school?

[02:58] ADRIENNE VILLARREAL: I mean, overall, high school was okay, but I think I, particularly in math. In high school, like, once I got into calculus, I just had a teacher who was really sort of disengaged, and I wasn't understanding calculus, for some reason, it wasn't coming, you know, coming naturally to me, quote unquote. And so it's something that I had to struggle with a little bit, and I just did not feel supported from either the way the classroom was structured or my teacher. So I think that any time where I feel like I'm sort of failing in life, I become very uncomfortable because a lot of the things that I did growing up, I was sort of excelling at, right? Like, I felt like I was doing pretty well. So when I hit challenges like that, and then, like I said, feeling like there was nowhere to turn, that was. That was really frustrating.

[03:52] CURTIS TAYLOR: It seems like we have, like, similar stories, but opposite. So, like, my elementary years to, like, middle school was like, eh. And then things started to, like, move up. So with your story and thinking about your story as a student, who or what inspired you to become an educator?

[04:14] ADRIENNE VILLARREAL: Yeah. So, I mean, just like our students, you know, we're so affected by whatever is going on at home. Right? We were shaped by the experiences that we have at home and outside of the home. So for me, you know, I was very determined to go to college. My grandmother was really big in education, and she was always pushing education. And like I said, I was really into school. I always wanted to do my homework. So I had always had my mindset on, I'm going to college. My mother had some mental illness issues, and I think that sort of made me interested in the psychology field. And so when I went into college, I actually was thinking, you know, I'm gonna study psychology. I'm gonna be some sort of counselor or psychologist. So that's what I was thinking I was gonna do. So, you know, I got my four year degree, and while I was in college, I actually started working for the social services department of the YMCA. And so I actually served kids and families for, like, over ten years working there. And I ran a youth center. I work with kids from ages like five and up, basically all the way up to 18 with volunteers. And so I was working a lot with kids. You know, we were doing a lot of instruction. We were programming. We were doing events. It was very community feel. So it's similar, you know, to what I do in the school. But I was talking to a colleague who had a son in elementary school, and I had mentioned one time, oh, you know, maybe I want to be a teacher. And he said, you know, would you want to go visit my son's classroom? And I'm like, okay, sure, you know, so I started observing in a third grade classroom and just being there and in that environment, I thought, yeah, this is what I want to do. You know, this is my next step. And so I actually went back to school after that to become a teacher. So, like I said, I mean, I do come from, you know, some of my family's educators and also just working with youth and families has always been something that I wanted to do and that I have done in my career. And so it just felt like a natural fit.

[06:37] CURTIS TAYLOR: So now that you are an educator and have been an educator for, I want to say more. It hasn't been more than ten years now.

[06:43] ADRIENNE VILLARREAL: Yeah, this is my 11th year. Yeah.

[06:49] CURTIS TAYLOR: It feels like everything has gone by so fast.

[06:52] ADRIENNE VILLARREAL: Yeah.

[06:53] CURTIS TAYLOR: So what would you consider to be your most rewarding part of your job?

[06:58] ADRIENNE VILLARREAL: Well, and it's interesting because the other thing is, like, when you're becoming a teacher, and I've heard this from other teachers, not everybody's really sure what they're going to teach. Right. You know, you're going to be a teacher, but you may not know, you know, where you're going to land. And so I have a multiple subject credential, which means I can teach anything from kindergarten through 8th grade. So, you know, I was thinking, oh, yeah, I'm going to teach elementary school. Maybe I'll add on a single subject and teach high school, but I'm not going to teach middle school. And guess where I ended up? Middle school for my whole career, middle school. And so, you know, the other part was just what subject do you want to teach? And I, you know, when I first started teaching, I, you know, I wasn't sure. I was like, do I want to teach humanities, which is, you know, history, social science, language arts, or do I want to go into more math and science? And so I ended up leaning more math and science. And so that's one thing that I really consider rewarding about my job is teaching those subjects for a few reasons. I think math can have a bad rap sometimes. We see that in the media. We hear that from kids and their families. I'm not good at this or I can't do this. I've never been able to do this. I can't help you with this. We hear that a lot. And so it's very rewarding if you can sort of start turning that around or turn that around when you have a group of students or you're working with families. So that's part of it also just being a female and knowing that, you know, math and science have been male dominated fields for a long time. Even in the field, as a field of study, I love, you know, exposing students to a variety of experiences and just saying, hey, like, these opportunities are available for you, you know, regardless of your gender or, you know, other classifications. So those are some things that I find very rewarding. In particular, if I was thinking of, you know, maybe like, a story that. That I could tell, it's not just once that's happened, but when a kid comes up to you or they write you an email or note and they say something to the effect of, I used to not like math, but now I do, or I used to not get math before. Like, I never understood it, but now, because you helped me, I do. I think whenever I hear something like that, I'm like, yes. You know, like, that's why I'm here.

[09:38] CURTIS TAYLOR: I know it gives me goosebumps anytime I hear it. Yeah, got it. Or even if they have, like, an aha. Moment in the classroom, it's, like, amazing to me.

[09:49] ADRIENNE VILLARREAL: Yes. It's like you and I with our journeys, you know, you could turn that journey around if it hasn't been such a positive one, you know, with those subjects. So it's a powerful thing.

[10:02] CURTIS TAYLOR: That is a powerful thing. So you and I, we used to teach together. We actually taught together for about four years, right at high tech Middle north county. Then we split, but not really. We really did together right through other means. Like, we end up working together through the mathematical agency improvement community network. And then once that network closed, we end up being very fortunate in developing the care network. And so now we work closely through that network together, and we work closely with lesson study as our continuous improvement work. So how has the lesson study model changed the way you kind of interact in your classroom or move around in your classroom?

[11:00] ADRIENNE VILLARREAL: So, in terms of the classroom, I would say, you know, because, like we just talked about, I've been teaching for over ten years now, and I think that's part of why I wanted to join the care network is because I want to keep learning. I want to keep pushing myself. I think you can kind of get stuck in a routine. And so I think by doing this work around lesson study, I have a little bit more of a focus. I feel like I'm more focused on trying to notice what students are doing or saying, like, in those moments, those kind of, like, in between moments when we're working on something, you know, how are they approaching this problem? Or what did they say to their neighbor? You know, it's kind of like being a little bit more observant and just seeing how they shape, you know, the concept in their own mind because you could have something up on the board, and then, you know, like we just saw last month, you have students who see it, you know, four or five different ways and ways you didn't even think of. So I think it's just kind of like noticing, stepping back, you know, facilitating, empowering the students, you know, having them listen to each other, you know, those are the kind of changes that I can see are happening, you know, and I'm trying to have them be something that's happening on a daily basis, but, you know, it's just sort of making that transition and sort of moving away from feeling so overwhelmed. As a teacher, you know, you have 30 something kids in your room at a time, and they they all have different needs and they're all in different places. And we've talked about this where it's like, how do I look at them all at once? And it's like, hey, just focus in on two, three students at a time this week or this month or whatever. You kind of hone in and then you can rotate. And so I think for me, that really opened it up a lot for me, instead of feeling just overwhelmed all the time, it's just kind of taking it little by little and and learning from those few students at a time. Of course, you're overall still assessing the class, but, you know, just really, like, laser focusing in on a few students at a time, you know, for whatever period of time you you have outlined is has been helpful for me in managing this kind of work.

[13:25] CURTIS TAYLOR: I love that. Adrienne, so what have been, like, one of your biggest aha. Moments so far in the work with a lesson study?

[13:33] ADRIENNE VILLARREAL: I think it's something that we know as teachers, but I think sometimes we need to be reminded of it, you know, because we have a lot of limitations that are placed on us. It may be the curriculum that we have to work with. It may be the timeline that we're working with, the pacing right now, we have Covid happening, you know, so a pandemic, and, you know, things at home, and so there's a lot of challenges. And so I think sometimes we limit ourselves and we limit our students as a result, and maybe we don't really realize that we're doing that. So for me, I think from doing this work, it was a really important reminder that students are so capable and creative and they support each other. You know, the way when you're doing a lesson in this way and the students are just building on the each other's ideas, or they're saying, hey, wait a minute, I don't agree with that. You know, and pushing each other and challenging each other. You know, they're running all that. And so it's just a reminder, you know, these kids are eleven years old, but they're definitely capable of so much more than even we realize. So I think that's just a big reminder for me that I want to carry with me, you know?

[14:51] CURTIS TAYLOR: Yeah. You know, I always thought, I always think to myself, like, I know that we're adults now, but we were once kids to myself. Like, we knew when we were children that we could think for ourselves. We were able to make decisions. I mean, we're dependent on our parents, you know, for things, or whoever our caregivers were being, teachers, grandparents, whoever. But we, we know that as, when we're students, I mean, not students, but just to children, we can make decisions and we can think, and we're very creative. And I think, I don't know how we lose that when we start to grow up and become adults. And as educators, we tend to lose that too. Yeah.

[15:34] ADRIENNE VILLARREAL: In the classroom, I think it's like an authority model. You know, it's like we think, you know, I'm the authority. I know the information, and I have to give it to the students. I think that's a model that's followed a lot as parents as well. You know, I'm a parent, too, and it's like, same thing with my kids. Like, they're capable far more. You know, sometimes it's like we limit them because we're, you know, out of fear or safety or, you know, whatever. We just kind of forget to sort of let them try and see what happens and let them learn naturally. Right. So I think it's just kind of that we have to think about that idea of, I'm teaching math, for example, and I'm not the math authority. Math is the math authority. Right. So the students can unpack that and I can guide them. Same thing as a parent. You're guiding your kids. Right. You don't necessarily have to be like this authoritarian. So I think it comes from a place of authority and just thinking that we know more and it's. And again, I think it's something that's kind of subconscious, know.

[16:44] CURTIS TAYLOR: Yeah, yeah, I totally agree with you. So I want to ask this question, too. So we've been trying out what we call change ideas, which are, you know, student centered and research based practices in our work. So do you mind sharing out one of the change ideas we have tried and how that's been going for you and your classroom so far.

[17:07] ADRIENNE VILLARREAL: Yeah, sure. So one change idea that I have been trying out, and this was in huddle. I'm not sure if I did it in lesson study, too, but was a star feedback, something called star feedback. So when we're thinking a lot about equity in this work that we're doing, which means everyone gets what they need, right? Not everyone gets the same thing. We think a lot about grading. We think a lot about assessment. How are we assessing the kids with the star feedback? You know, when I'm grading something, part of it is giving the students the opportunity to revise their work. So instead of them just taking a test, for example, at the end of the unit, and then saying, this is your grade. Here you go. That's it. They have, you know, this opportunity to go back and let's say they made mistakes. They can look at that again a little more critically and say, hmm, you know, mistakes are valuable. Okay, what can I learn from this? What happened here? Does this make sense? So how you end up starting that process for them is with the SAR feedback. You look at the tasks that you gave or a question that you gave on an assignment or a project or an assessment, and you come up with a. A set of questions that could push the students thinking from wherever they're at. So maybe there was a student who just totally didn't get it. Maybe they didn't even write anything right. They could have just left it blank. And so you have a couple questions that you could pull from to give them, to push them to think a little bit more on that problem. Or maybe there was a student who, you know, they seem to have a good start on it. Maybe they made an error when they were adding or something or multiplying and ended up with the wrong solution, or they didn't clearly explain, or there was a common misconception that they had. So you have a couple questions that could address those things, right? And then there could be a student who got it completely correct, and they had a beautiful explanation, and they had a picture and everything, everything you could have asked for, but we still wanna push them a little further. So you have a couple questions for them as well. So, you know, you try to come up with these questions that could really open up this problem no matter where students at. And then what I did in terms, you could do it different ways, but what I did in terms of time is I had the students work. I had the questions. I printed them out on slips and I stapled the questions to the students work and then I handed it back to them and I gave them time in class to answer that question, to respond to that question. So I feel in teaching 6th graders, they need scaffolding, they need that support, they need that time. This was also a new structure, so we really needed to spend the time to go over, what are we doing? Why are we doing this? How do we do it? And so I did that and I gave them, I think, 20 minutes because I didn't want to just say do it, you know, forever and see what happens. So I give them 20 minutes just to see what would happen. And then I collected them back. And so what I noticed, and I was, I was shocked because I'm like, this is the first time I'm doing this. And I was like, I don't know what's going to happen. But what I noticed is so many more of them got the problem. You know, they got the idea, the concept that we were trying to get at with the problem just by addressing that one question. So it was just such a powerful exercise, you know, just, I know it took a little bit of time out of the day, but, you know, it got them there, you know, for most of them, I would say so, yeah, it was amazing.

[21:09] CURTIS TAYLOR: That is amazing. And it also communicates to the students, like, learning never stops. I love how you mentioned, like, even the kids who probably did 100 scored 100% on the test or quiz, you still give them like, an extension question that pushes their thinking a little bit further.

[21:25] ADRIENNE VILLARREAL: Yeah, exactly.

[21:27] CURTIS TAYLOR: Love that. So if we focus a little bit more back on to the lesson study work, we talked about your aha. Moments and now what have been, like, the most challenging part of doing lesson study?

[21:42] ADRIENNE VILLARREAL: I think two things come to mind. One would be time. You know, time is always a challenge as a teacher. And so, you know, we've had a little bit of a challenge just finding the time to get together, meet and plan for our lesson. I think that we did a pretty good job of managing that. I didn't feel like it was super overwhelming, you know, the amount we were meeting or anything like that. My hope is to transition this to be a regular practice in our school and in our district. And so I could see some challenges with that, with the time. Right. But that was one, and then the other one for me was just planning the task because, you know, you want it to be this task that will be open and accessible to all students. We really wanted to make sure students were sharing their ideas and listening to each other's ideas and building off of them. So we were really trying to create this scenario where this rich dialogue is happening, and we weren't sure what was going to happen. But, you know, I think for me, just taking a concept in math and then saying, okay, how do I create this task where it's going to hit all these points that I'm trying to hit was challenging. I think we did a good job. But it was challenging.

[23:13] CURTIS TAYLOR: Yeah, I think we did a good job. You had a couple kids who gave you some curveballs, too.

[23:18] ADRIENNE VILLARREAL: We did have some curveballs. It made it interesting. It was very good practice for me. But. But, yeah, you know, I mean, what do you expect with the kids, you know, the middle schoolers?

[23:30] CURTIS TAYLOR: But it was fun to see, like, even though the kids, like, it was, I think one of the major things during that lesson, study day, when we actually implemented the research lesson in your classroom, was when the kids did present their strategies for the border problem, the initial border problem, we're looking at the ten by ten square. And when the student who. I can't remember exactly who it was, but when. When a student said, oh, it's going to be 36, and they shared out their strategy, why it's going to be 36 squares in that border. And then when you ask the kids, well, now that we listen to each other's strategies, do we agree with it being 30? Or how many of you changed your mind? Or one of those questions? You did? And the majority of the class raised their hand saying, I did. Amazing moment of like, how many kids, how many kids, like, were so set on their own thinking, but listening to someone else, they were like, they rethought and they had that rough draft moment. They were like, oh, well, no, that doesn't make sense.

[24:40] ADRIENNE VILLARREAL: Wait a minute. Yeah.

[24:41] CURTIS TAYLOR: And so that was just amazing to see.

[24:44] ADRIENNE VILLARREAL: Yeah, it was. Again, it was powerful, you know, the things they're coming up with. And if you're wondering what the curveball means, if you're looking at a ten by ten border of a square and you're saying, how many squares are in that border? Most kids are saying 41 of my students said 441. So that was the curveball. So that's what we were talking about. It was a little bit like, oh, and as a teacher, you have to, you know, we kept talking about poker face. Right. You have to just acknowledge the idea. Oh, okay, 441. Put it on the board, put the students name. Okay, thank you for that. Anyone else have ideas? Right. So it was. It really threw me, because we anticipate student thinking. We, you know, we say some students are going to say 40 students will say, come up with 36. Some students might say, you know, 44 something, you know, so we had some ideas that we thought students would come up with. So that was like, way outside of what we were thinking. But, you know, we just rolled with it. So we validated it and we. We rolled with it. We ended up, you know, saying, well, that's not reasonable. You know, we came to that together. So it was. It was cool.

[25:52] CURTIS TAYLOR: It was cool. It was really cool. So in what ways has your work in lesser studies shaped your thinking of equity in the classroom?

[26:03] ADRIENNE VILLARREAL: Yeah, so I think just that idea that attending to students agency is so critical. And I think as teachers, we're thinking so much about, you know, how am I going to make sure they know how to do long division, you know, how am I going to make sure that, you know, when they go to solve an equation, they know how to substitute the variable, you know, so it's like when we're thinking about, well, I want students to feel like they have control over what they can do over their own actions, over, you know, whether they can approach something or not. I feel like it might not be natural for us to just think about that. So for me, I've had to spend a lot of time thinking more about, like, how can I build up a student's agency? You know, I want them to feel like they are equipped to approach this problem or they are capable of doing things that are difficult and they can persevere even if it's challenging, you know, so that's something that I feel like I've had to think about attending more to when I'm thinking about, you know, looking at my classroom through an equity lens and what comes with that is how we shape our tasks that we give. You know, we have to make sure that certain opportunities are provided in the work that we're giving. So, you know, those opportunities for dialogue, we were talking about giving them a chance to clarify their ideas with a partner, working together as a group, you know, they're not losing anything doing that. They're gaining so much, you know, sharing their ideas out with the class. Like, we talked about being able to hear other people's ideas and change your mind. Right? So all those opportunities, positioning students as experts, like we talked about putting their strategies on the board, writing their names up there, having them come up and explain, asking them if I got it right, you know, all of those things, just acknowledging them as experts. Right. Or as authors of the work. So. And then, lastly, I would just say how I assess the students, because if I'm being honest, in a lot of the things I've seen over the years in education, some of the ways that we do grading is just arbitrary, you know? And it's. And people hang on so tightly to those grades, though. They say, I. Oh, I'm this c student or I'm this f student. Right? What does that mean? So, I think, you know, I personally got rid of that 59% pit. I don't know whose idea it was to have that in the first place, but I don't think it's fair. And so I changed my grading scale. I eliminate zeros. I allow students to resubmit their work, revise and resubmit their work. So, I think very critically about what I grade. I don't grade everything, and I think critically about what I'm going to grade, not just how I'm going to grade it. So, those are some things that come to mind when I think about, you know, all the things I picked up and been trying to work on in terms of equity.

[29:14] CURTIS TAYLOR: It sounds like this experience has been very inclusive for you because not only are you thinking about what's happening in the classroom, you're also thinking about what is being reflected in your assessments and things like that, as well. And so that's amazing, because I think that a lot of teachers completely agree. I think a lot of teachers end up thinking about, well, what's the things I need to shift in my classroom to get my kids talking and doing stuff. But you can have the kids having these really great math experiences, but then you end up giving them an assessment that's fully a procedural problems where there's no way for them to share their thinking. So there's, like, a mismatch of what's happening in the classroom to the assessment. And it sounds like you're having a nice through line for yourself and understanding, like, well, if this is changing, well, this other part has to change, as well.

[30:12] ADRIENNE VILLARREAL: It's funny. I never thought of it that way, but, yes, that. That's, uh. That's amazing. Yeah. To think about it that way. And. And, you know, like I said, some students and parents and families really define themselves or their children child by that letter. And so I. Again, that's, like, so much power we're holding. Right. And so you can affect someone's trajectory sometimes simply by giving them this grade. Right. And so, you know, it should be something that I know that they earn and that, you know, that reflects what they know. And so, you know, where I work, a lot of my students who are failing were students who are failing because of a lack of work completion, not necessarily because they didn't know the skills or the content. And I have a problem with that. So that's why I feel like, too, we have to really think about how can we have students show us what they know? Because we don't want to just be failing students because they may have other challenges, again, outside of school, and they're not able to be completing these assignments or homework or whatnot. And so that way, their grade ends up being an f, even though they're, they're truly capable and they have the skills. So it's. It's a challenge. But I do think, you know, we have to think about those things, and it's our duty to reassess and change.

[31:45] CURTIS TAYLOR: Yeah, I completely agree with you. There's. So you mentioned I. That you are part of the huddle work, which is where we start, where we have these very succinct meetings about 30 to 45 minutes long. You all, I think you meet, like, bi weekly, and you really focus on a few set of students similar to, like, lessons that, where we focus on a few set of students, and you try these change ideas. And so my next question was about how lesson study work and huddle work is interconnected. But you, you sort of, you talked about that already about, like, the changes that I'm doing in the lesson study around what I'm doing in my classroom, my math classroom, from opening up the problems to more participation strategies or having kids discuss more in mathematics to looking at feedback for growth, either through the star feedback or your grading practices in general. Do you want to add any more about how those two are intersecting together?

[32:46] ADRIENNE VILLARREAL: Yeah, I think another theme, you know, that I see between the two, and maybe not in the classroom, but as a teacher, is collaboration. I feel like in certain sites, you know, that I have worked at, there's been a very high level of collaboration. I haven't felt that so much where I'm at right now. And I was craving that, you know, like, I want to work with people. I want to talk to other people. You know, I want to, you know, what would you think about this? So, I feel that so much more now because I meet with lessons, study, and in huddle, I have different coaches who are sort of leading those meetings, and I have two other members from different grade levels and different content areas. So it's like another layer of collaboration, another level. Right. So I'm getting to hear from people who are trying the things that I'm trying, but in a different class and with different age students. So it's that theme of collaboration that's happening across the two groups, and we're really working on those good teacher moves that that pedagogy that we're striving for is what I think I'm seeing, sort of lining up with both of those groups.

[34:10] CURTIS TAYLOR: So to end this off, we're at our last question. What would you say would be the most exciting aspect of your work right now?

[34:19] ADRIENNE VILLARREAL: So, for me, I think what I'm most excited about is something that I consider very challenging at the same time. And I think challenge excites me because then I feel like I'm doing something right, you know, because I'm trying to push myself. So for me, it's exploring, continue to explore how to open up my math class more. You know, we've been talking about, um, you know, we did design a couple tasks, but it's like, okay, and now I have all these other units, and what am I going to do, you know? So I do definitely try to do a lot of conceptual and open work in my math class, but I really want to have more lessons that were sort of like what we did in the lesson study and that to be something that we're doing, you know, most of the time. And so I want to invite more exploration. I want to invite more student led, you know, work and dialogue. So I think for me, that's the most exciting, is sort of setting off on that journey and figuring that out together.

[35:21] CURTIS TAYLOR: I'm excited, too, and I'm so happy to be on this journey with you, Adrienne.

[35:26] ADRIENNE VILLARREAL: I'm happy you're here, too. You just can't get rid of each other.

[35:31] CURTIS TAYLOR: Well, thank you so much for having this conversation with me.

[35:34] ADRIENNE VILLARREAL: Yes, thank you. I really appreciate it.