Al Pola and Mani Mahadevan

Recorded October 14, 2021 Archived October 14, 2021 45:15 minutes
0:00 / 0:00
Id: ddb002579

Description

Al Pola (62) connects with their One Small Step partner, Mani Mahadevan (60) over their experience as immigrants and discuss topics like cultural identity, police perceptions of the public, and racism.

Subject Log / Time Code

AP and MM share their immigration journey with one another. Mani having moved from India to the US, and then Canada while AP was brought to the US from Havana at the age of 1.
AP and MM discuss big decisions in their lives that they made without their parent's approval. AP had decided to seek US citizenship and Mani chose to go into the research field.
MM expresses the difficulties that come with working as a researcher. AP takes the opportunity to discuss their experience as an officer in contrast the public perception of them.
MM contextualizes his experience being a POC in the western society.
AP and MM how they would like to help change Charlottesville for the better.

Participants

  • Al Pola
  • Mani Mahadevan

Recording Locations

WJTU Station

Venue / Recording Kit

Partnership Type

Outreach

Initiatives


Transcript

StoryCorps uses Google Cloud Speech-to-Text and Natural Language API to provide machine-generated transcripts. Transcripts have not been checked for accuracy and may contain errors. Learn more about our FAQs through our Help Center or do not hesitate to get in touch with us if you have any questions.

00:02 My name is Al Pola. Today is October 14th 2021. I'm at the wtju studios for one small step and my interview partner is money. Money is is a father of three, two, adults, and one teenager married for more than twenty-eight years. He works as a professor in the medical school at UVA born in India, but grew up in Canada. He's an in a dual citizen of the USA and Canada family's most important to him and some of the issues that he identified are universal, healthcare cultural diversity and respect for other cultures as well as Economic Opportunity.

00:41 Okay, my name is Money about how David and I am 62 years old. And today's date is October 14th, 2021. We are talkin from Charlottesville, Virginia and my name of my interview Partners L. And this the first time I met Al

01:03 Oh, I have to read Alex thing. Yes. That's right. I am a Cuban American US citizen who has lived in this country since I was one, my parents worked very hard to ensure. I am I sisters had a quality education growing up, Catholic schools through high school and I work hard to pay for college and post college law school. I work for seven years as a police officer over 20 years, as a private practice criminal defense lawyer. And over 20 years is high school teacher government economics in criminal justice. I married in the proud father of three children, two boys and a transgender transitioning daughter. I like to have discussions with people of all viewpoints in a calm rational matter where we may end up, still disagreeing on topics. But at least try to listen to each other question. Each other and Come Away with better understanding of each other. I like to think I can bring an interesting Viewpoint of law enforcement Indigent, criminal defense and

02:03 Racial issues as well as one in brains point of view, regarding our country's immigration crisis.

02:11 So money, I'd like to start by asking you why you wanted to do this interview. So,

02:18 My daughter is actually the manager of one small step here. So she asked me if I'd like to do this. And I said, well, I said involving so you like to talk and get along with people. And so I said, okay, if that's all that is, then I'd like to do that. So that's how I got involved. I got to tell your daughter is fantastic. I spoken with her a number of times and she's really pleasant person. Very professional really easy to talk to. So congratulations. Give her a shout out on my behalf for that. I wanted to do this because it sounded interesting. I saw the ad and in the c-ville weekly and I thought it was a great opportunity to talk to someone that I didn't know and really cover a wide range of issues and just get somebody else's perspective on whatever it is that we wanted to bring up today.

03:19 So I was looking through your letter and, you know, I said,

03:26 So if this one small step is supposed to be about people meeting, you have differences in points of view, I guess. And based on what I said, we have very similar to why are we talkin to you? I am not right. So why don't we start off? I'm interested to find out why why your family left. India to go to Canada right now? And then, why did you then go from Canada to the United States? So you want to know about my life? Absolutely, so I was born in

04:10 My my dad was a PhD and scientist.

04:17 And he actually came to the us back in 1993 9019, 63-64 to Columbia University and then subsequently to California and my mom came with him in back if I was born in 61, so they they left me with my grandpa with my grandparents. My brother was a couple years younger than me and they left us and then we were raised by my my grandma my moms moms who influences in your life and thinking back on it. My grandmother was probably a great influence in my life. She had a certain, you know, we grew up in a joint, family wasn't the middle class family, my grandpa, my grandfather, and his older brother had a joint family with a r and a typing Institute, Suzanne education list, do to teach people how to do typing and shorthand and that was

05:17 Valuable skill to have an Indian for for people who want to get a job. So I I had so my mom is one of seven siblings and then I also had to have fun the other side, The Joint down, another three on samples. So was a pretty small house, but it was lots of fun.

05:44 My grandma is pretty young. She was thirty-five when I was born. So she got married when she was twelve or thirteen, then that my mom had me when she was 19. So they laughed to the US and they actually tried to stay in the US, but for the immigration papers didn't go through. Even though my dad had support from the congressman and all that kind of stuff. And so in 68, they my dad got a job in Canada with the federal government and move to Canada. And then they reapplied for trying to get my brother and me to to come over. And so we came in, 1969 to Canada. So I was about eight years old that is right after Neil Armstrong landed on the moon. So I remember reading about that was so cool and

06:36 So, we arrived and we had not seen her parents.

06:42 In many, many years you now. So I had no idea who they were and the stewardess. And we have never loved. We didn't speak English, or are we just both Tamil and Telugu? And we've never been on an airplane or anything like that. I remember arriving and sitting

07:04 Are there play not knowing what I'm you. This food was and we actually slept on the floor of the airplane cuz that's what we were used to sleep and took us to these two Indian people at the Montreal Airport and introduced them as their mom and dad November. And we knew that Canada was cold and the first day we arrived it snowed. So that was kind of one of the first arrived was actually take my brother and me talking cuz you wanted to have like a record of that. And cuz and one of the things that he tells me, I wish we could have those tapes again. Like I don't know where they are, but he said that I told him that if he wasn't nice to me and my little brother, I will get on the plane and go back to Grandma's.

08:04 From a very young age were very independent as protective my little brother arrived in Canada and my parents lived in Canada, even though my dad always thought. Well, I'm going to go to the US and make a living and then go back to India. That was his grand plan. Of course, he lived and died in Canada. And my mom is still there. Now, after 50 some years.

08:35 So I got done as soon as they can, I was an adult and they could become Canadian citizens. They became cane since I was a kid by the time. I was 18 years old and I think of myself as a Canadian, tell me, yes, Indian by birth, but culturally, I grew up in Canada. So the lots of the values that I am used to in the things that I Aspire for our from having grown up in Canada. And and, and then we'll be moved to then when I got married. I guess my Indian identity became even more probably because my wife is from India.

09:22 And we've been married 28 years and then. And then with the kids being born and weary moved to the US in 95 just before our first son was born. And so she was like, 7 months pregnant at the time and and I took up a job at the University of Wisconsin and then been here and Charlottesville since 2002 and became a citizen in 2006. So took me interesting, me enough, but I came to Wisconsin, doctor, but I wasn't allowed to practice without a green card.

10:00 So so I had to apply for a green card in the University, help me to get that and then as soon as we were eligible to apply for citizenship, we did apply for US citizenship cuz I I think

10:20 Being in the United States has helped. My family have made a living. My children are grown up here.

10:31 I respect the the opportunities that this country has given me and I made sense for us to become US citizens. My wife actually became a US citizen at Monticello on July, 4th 2005 and I was supposed to do that too, but they lost my paperwork and saw, I was really upset about that into Harrisonburg in a courthouse, in the middle of February, sometime to get my citizenship in 2006. So, our children, I asked, I asked my daughter up with a lot of Indian culture. We go to India quite often because my wife is one of nine children do the youngest and so she has lots of brothers and sisters scattered throughout the world. Actually, we've often gone back to India just to visit family and cousins and

11:26 And that's how the kids have a good relationship with the rest of the family. So they have a lot of Indians culture. Two, very good about that, and brought me home. Anyway, so now I watch cricket for instance. So having multiple cultures and multiple citizenship is a valuable to me and it gives me a different perspective on the world. And so that's how I I am where I am now, it's awesome by yourself. So it it's just that you're talkin and I think I agree with you. We do have a lot in common so far. I was born in Havana Cuba. One of four siblings Three Sisters. My oldest sister was obviously born open Cuba, my two youngest sisters, born here in the US, my parents emigrated here at 9.

12:26 60. I for the most part it's interesting because it's a b. A i was an interesting dichotomy of my parents.

12:36 Refuse to become US citizens for quite some time. They always held out hope that they were going to return to Cuba and the longer we stayed the less Cuban. I thought of myself in the more American I thought of myself because it was in my parents took that as a personal struggle and it wasn't that I was denying the Cuban Heritage, but I'm in the US and the others have. No we're going back. Why I know I mean I speak Spanish at home, but I speak English everywhere else. I'm going to American schools and doing a lot of growing up was was very much. This struggle with my parents of trying to maintain Cuban Heritage in a Cuban way of growing up. Yeah. Yeah, cuz you know, it's funny though. When I was eight. I came to Canada with no knowledge of English at all. So I knew tool.

13:35 India languages. And they put me into a personalized, teacher situation, where a half a day. I would spend learning the letters of the alphabet and things like that scattered. That y'all said Prince too, So my parents would I shoot for 6 to watch TV?

13:54 They forced. Yeah, because that way it because that pisses that we could learn the language.

14:03 My parents I think they really did not like TV. You need to go outside and play an okay, but then we're going outside. We're playing with American kids and then come back and have to do this as I want. But those kids don't do it. You're worried that you're not those kids. We're not American. So there was a constant theme in my house.

14:27 Well, through a lot of things to play at 3 when I was growing up, I saw and I saw it, but I didn't really understand until I was much later in my life. I saw how my parents suffered from some.

14:43 Racism, because they were Cubans and not white Anglo-Saxon native-born Americans. So they they emigrated directly to DC and then we settled in, in Virginia, Northern Virginia. They got, they rented a house. They wanted to buy it, the owner refused to sell it to him. They rented a second house, same situation. They wanted to buy it, the owner refused to sell it to him. We rented an apartment for a year and then they finally bought a house and that's where we grew up. And

15:23 Do you know? I didn't see it. I mean every now and then there was there was something a kid would say something or do something would happen and it was I didn't understand what was going on. Is that later on? You kind of say, I don't get it, you know, cuz it's cuz I speak American, I act American, what's the difference? And the only their eyes, I was not American and so growing up. It's like why don't feel Cuban? What the heck am I? So it much easier afterwards to kind of take all of that and and and it put it together, say okay. I get this, I'm both, but I feel even today, I feel more American than they do Cuban, but I have Cuban Heritage that I embrace, and then my kids have grown up with understanding and knowing where, or my parents came from one of my son's actually did a high school project were interviewed my father, and, and posted it on the web.

16:23 That was fantastic, was great way for him to really understand what my parents went through and what their background was. But a wee, one of the things that my parents insisted was a Catholic Education. So it's Catholic school with your high school, which I think it's a great opportunity for the time. I didn't like it because all of my friends in the neighborhood went to public school and I can understand why I can go to public school and you can't go to public school list for all if that's where the danger is and thing myself, you know, if you only knew but okay and then and then in college, they were adamant about me. Staying at home and going to school and school locally. So the benefit of that wasn't a very good University. I met my wife there, but I didn't like it because I missed out on the social aspect of living on campus.

17:23 So that's kind of though the other struggle continue to go on, but I'm at my wife is in school and college. It was

17:32 It was probably one of the best things ever. She certainly steered me toward so academics more than social aspect of college. We've been married 39 years of 30 330 of three grown children, and my experience has been a little bit more varied. So I was a law enforcement officer for seven years. Then I had something happy in my life. And I, and I had this kind of epiphany, I said, okay. Well, if you let me go out and do something else and that's when I decided to go to law school. So we moved from the West Virginia, to Syracuse, New York, and

18:20 Graduated from Syracuse was involved in private, practice for a number of years of practicing law, but didn't like the hours because it took me away from the kids. And I really my father was always working, and I swore to myself. I would not be that person and I love my father dearly, but I wanted to be actively involved with the with my kids growing up. So I went back to school again. I'll take my teaching degree and then talk for twenty years and still did criminal defense. What it was doing criminal defense for people, couldn't afford a lawyer, because one of the things that I grew up in any such thing that you said, how much you appreciated, what United States gave to. And that's why you became a citizen in growing up. I became a citizen as soon as I turned 18 because then legally I didn't need my Parent's signature to do with that. So once I turned eighteen, I said, I told them it was a big argument but

19:21 Now they actually are now. So there's the US citizens as well. But I grew up with the appreciation for what this country gave us and sold. It community service is always been a big part of my life, but we try to instill that in our kids as well. So so for me, teaching was part of that and doing criminal defense before people can afford. It was part of that, you know, everything I think it's an extension of that, you know, you want to do things where you're happy that are good for your family, but at the same time gives something back to where you live. I think we will see the world the same way and that way because for me family's most important thing. I'm a professor. So I teach I always have liked teaching

20:14 I'm a doctor and I had issues with my parents about making the choices that I've made, because I know I do mostly academic work and research. So I went through medical. I did 15 years from high school before, I let you know before I could actually practice, which was a long road. And, you know, even after I got my boards and was certified to be a pathologist. I went took a salary, cut the desert, Reverb for 5 years and then pursued, an academic career, what I did research and my dad was like, either a Searcher and he's like, why do you want to do this could be a doctor and make lots of money and take care of people and I said, this is good all the time. You're a researcher. You kind of your kind of put it into my jeans, I guess. And this is what interests me. I spent a lot of time. I mean I was a good doctor on the floor.

21:14 But I had to spend a lot of time asking questions. Like, why is that happening? Why is this happening?

21:20 And the one of the best ways to pursue that was to follow a research career obviously. And then I've been doing the human genetics research and Human Genome Project take stuff for the last 30 years. So, because it, why would you think your father, especially being a researcher? Why do you think that your dad was so hesitant about you also, following his footsteps, although a different area of the following his footsteps as opposed to being a doctor, because my son is studying to be a doctor, and basically told him, don't follow my footsteps.

22:04 Because legal research has a hard life actually. So it's it's, it's very gratifying and satisfying but it's also quite the challenge and it's become more and more like a business. And so I have to put together, grants. Would you like business proposals and basically, seek money and most of the time that you do research often your results, don't end up being what you want. So, you spend a lot of time getting negative results and you spend a lot of time trying to get people to, basically, like you and I like, like, like your papers and, like your grandson and accept what you're trying to publish. So,

22:54 It's challenging. And I think there's a certainly for myself. And I think for the kind of person he is as well as a very compassionate person and you likes interacting with people. So I should follow this career. It is it, you do you have to be willing to put up with a lot of failure? Well, because I think you're talking about it. I'm thinking in research if you want to prove something, but you end up, it ends up proving wrong. That's actually type in my mind. It's 50% of research as I'd like to prove this but if it's proven wrong, that's the benefit event. Can't does this happen? No, I prove that. It doesn't. I wish my colleagues would think the same way that you do because what ends up happening in the research field is that if you do an experiment and results, don't show what you want, but you think should be shy

23:54 Then you're left with a negative result. That doesn't get you. Any farther. I do. I would disagree just like I agree with you that the fact that you have a negative result says that's not the past to go but that's not value is much. And so it's so you know, I've been doing this for 37 years and it's it's getting harder and harder to actually fun to work that we do, especially with the funding has gone at the federal level. Cuz I, I get most of my funding at the federal level and initially, I think, when I first came to the US,

24:28 95. Probably about 25 per-cent of grants for getting funded. So I said, if I can beat a top-25 then I think I can be 25%, so I can do that. But now I'm yeah, I'm actually on towels at the NIH, the review grants and it's, it's, it's really a crapshoot. So maybe 8 to 10 per cent of of science is getting funded, and but there's more than eight to ten per-cent of really good proposals out there. And so we struggled determine what's good. And what's bad? And just like any other thing there's politics and who you know, and all that kind of stuff comes into the into the situation. So,

25:14 I said, you know, it's much easier said it's much easier for you to be a doctor who looks after patients. And and you don't have to go through these kind of struggles to

25:28 You know, full well what you want to do?

25:34 So, that's kind of.

25:38 Where I guess where I see things. So. That is invaluable. What's really happening is given the situation the way funding is now that less and less people are making the choice to do research. Actually interested. Maybe that's what the government wants, because they don't want if they don't want to find it as much as they used to, this is one, you know, what's a used to having generating a whole bunch of phds and researchers? If you can't really

26:11 Funding to do the research. Also. This is one way to basically change career Paths of people. What's the flavor of the month? You know, if so, you're doing, you're doing research. And if what you're doing, research happens to all the sudden gain popularity because of a movie because of a book because of something that happens in the National scope. Then all of a sudden your area explodes. Everybody wants to find. Everybody wants to know the answers until the next flavor comes along. And says, he'll now what I find that personally with the conversations going on, now about what changes do we want to see any law enforcement?

26:56 And I look at that from, I think, I think a unique perspective because I've been on the law enforcement side and I've been on the criminal defense side. So when I look at this number conversations with people, I know where they say. What do you think about what's going on now? And how difficult is it? Do you think to be able to teach a criminal justice? I said, I don't think it's difficult at all. I don't think it's any less or more difficult than it was before. Because really what you're teaching is an understanding of the criminal justice system. For those want to go into law enforcement, how difficult that job is, and how rewarding it could be at the same time. And the problem is, is I see it is that law enforcement arm. It is made up of people like you and me, they're not superhuman. That they're human. So you can train them and train them well, but they still have human qualities. So if

27:51 They're constantly exposed to the worst. The society has to offer at what point does that begin to affect them? Personally and then affect their how they do their job. If you call somebody a name enough times at what point do they get tired of being called that and it disrespected. So that same thing then translates into I think they're disrespecting people and they're not understanding people. So, how do you correct that? How do you correct the long-held tradition of? Because I have a badge, if I tell you to do something you should just do it and respect authority. Versus if somebody ask you a question will why am I doing this? What's the problem was just explaining it. It takes an extra couple of minutes out of your life to say, the reason you need to move is because of this.

28:43 So it is, so it's in in my mind. I think when I hear things like defund the police, it makes no sense because if you defund the police.

28:58 What's going to happen in society? Whose? Okay, I want to television while I guess I'll just break the window of Best Buy and go get a TV, because who's going to arrest me? Defund. The police is a flavor of the month, you know, everybody. And I understand why it's come but it's not about the funding, the police will be funding the police because I've had this conversation at home as well. I kind of look at it. The way you do this defund, the police. That doesn't make much sense. Right? So I have a very Progressive family, my daughter, and my wife have the defund. The police has made, take away the money. From the police means fund society and social support in a different way. And I would agree with that, 100%

29:47 I can't tell you the number of times. I went on a call and the person was having a mental breakdown.

29:54 I'm not, I'm not trained in mental breakdowns. And how do you deal with somebody who is suffering from a mental incapacity for somebody who doesn't? It's are you breaking the law? Yes, what am I charged with? I'm charged with enforcing the law. Well, there's a difference in. The problem is I think the role of those of law enforcement has expanded where Society expects law enforcement to do a number of things much like teachers. Okay. Here's my child. You now have a responsible for my child for everything, for the next 8 hours. And if the child misbehaves

30:35 You had to deal with it. So it's not I'm not going to teach your child the alphabet and math and I also had to deal and in help your child grow as a person and how do I do that? But you've been in that situation both as a policeman as a teacher writes, the right, but I like that, I like that. But I also recognize the limitations. I agree that I think one of the things we need to do a society's. When you look at law enforcement but include law enforcement in the conversation and have everybody talking and saying, okay. What is it that we want law enforcement to do?

31:09 Did they say well we don't want them to enforce minor traffic violations. Okay. Well, then you understand that if we don't do that. This is what's going to happen. So you have to have that that what I think. Sometimes very difficult conversations enforcement willing to change which is I think it's an institution, a very difficult thing to do because they look at it as a personal attack. And I also think you have to have Society, understand what it is that you want law enforcement to do and if you take things away, how does that impact your quality of life? I thought it was really interesting article. Oh, I think it was a week or two ago where there was a student at UVA who was she was leading? She's leader of an organization and was commenting about University, Police and University coming into one of the students centers and is supposed to be Student Center where students of color feel safe, and they can go there and in and not worry about any.

32:09 Of the microaggression said they would normally experience in their lives and she was upset that the university representatives and you were so please come to the building because she saw that as unsafe and a personal attack and wanted it to stop and I'm reading both of their opinions as to why they do that.

32:32 University Police and University represent is for saying, what we do that with everybody because we want to understand. Are we doing our job, right? If, if you feel unsafe with us? Why do you feel that way? If something happened in the past? It's a representative from our organization. Doing something. That maybe is incorrect that we need to correct. What else can we do for you? It seems very opening at the same time in the back of my head. But how is that coming across?

33:00 Her comments are. I don't care. You shouldn't be here. I don't want to hear and is in my opinion. You shouldn't even be fun. We should even have University Police Department. And the only thing I could think about was, I'm really looking forward to what small stuff because this is exactly what we need to do. Is you need to sit there and have people come together and discuss it and it's a Well, if you won't listen to why I am here, then how are things going to get better?

33:27 And it's and I think it was, it's that sort of intransigence that really stops us from making our community better. Not that she might still say, I don't want the University Police here. But do you think a voice like that is the voice of the majority? Do you think everybody feels that way, but I'll give you an example, out of my own personal experience with having grown up in Canada.

33:54 Will you stop police and come to our schools all the time? And and as we were as kids and we actually got to know the policeman very well.

34:04 I don't know. I don't know if my kids had that many policemen come to their schools and introduce themselves and just talk about what policemen do and and then, if Constable Taylor is still remember his name. It says, he was like a regular at the school where, you know, we had nicknames for him and all that, but I don't say that but, but my own experience with police in, in the US has been a little different. I think, for instance. I can give me an example of a situation where my wife was tailed by a police car.

34:47 All the way home from downtown, Charlottesville.

34:53 For no apparent reason. So, she was looking around, she can see this guy. She said, why is he following the satellites on followed her? All the way up to our driveway and drove away. And so that was very intimidating. I would agree with you that would that I could see how she would feel that way. And as a person of color, I think you do. You feel is somebody targeting be right? And I think,

35:25 That's you know, if I get pulled over by a policeman naturally, people get anxious.

35:33 But I feel a little bit more anxious because your personal colored because I'm a person of color.

35:42 And,

35:46 That means I don't know how else to put it. I think you put it. Well, I think interesting Lee enough, if I see the red lights in my rearview mirror. I become anxious like everybody else where they're done something wrong or not. You know, it's sad moment of Executives. Like, what have I done? But interesting Lee enough, I don't think law enforcement identifies me as a person of color because I'm white. I'm a white hispanic, right? And I don't speak with an accent. So when if they get to know me well enough and they understand white background. They said there's a shock value to that. I didn't know that.

36:28 I don't shrug it off. Like, why should you do your kids going to ask where you from? My kids do know, my kids have American names. So there's no we have not brought the culture in to give them Latin America things and they both, they all three of them speak Spanish, but really, there's no no one would know what their Heritage is. Just seem less. They just closed it. I was going to ask you actually, so you've maintained your language, and talk to your children. I wish I could have done that refused to speak English for a long time. So if you want to be with your grandparents, you have to, you have to know Spanish.

37:20 So, we make sure they took Spanish in school. We speed up speak as much Spanish to them, as we probably should have my wife. My wife also took Spanish in school. And so, she has a very good command of the language, but it was that it was a struggle as you going to want back and forth and one of her kids when they're going up. It was much like my sister's one of my nieces initially. They had some difficulty with language. We saw it. Why is that? The therapist said you're talking to them 50/50 and they can't do that. They want you to know, you should speak English primarily and then speak Spanish as learning the language.

37:59 I don't agree with it or not. But there was certainly their recommendation as they seem to take care what the issues are. But, but you guys spoke Spanish, the whole mostly English at all. We did speak Spanish and saying, you know, this knew how to do that, and then come back and we start talking in Spanish and then it was a cyst, intransigence to talk in Spanish because I always liked school, but then when they went and spoke to my parents, my parents, my parents force them to talk to them in Spanish, but then Mike is one of them to practice their English. So it actually speak in Spanish speaking English to my dad's today, and I just sat back and watched the whole thing. It was a great experience when you came by to, to a point that you brought up when you came to to the US and in your time that you've lived here. Have you experienced any kind of

39:00 Either overt or implicit bias because your person of color Lake. Mohave even close to enough to Muslim name, I guess so I get randomly checked every time, really so it's not random. So every time I fly my suitcase has a little piece of paper in it and even though it says, it's a random check. It's always there.

39:37 We went through.

39:39 Disney World and we wouldn't arrive at the airport in Florida. And my little five-year-old daughter's suitcase, which has like sesame seed characters on it. So Sesame Street characters and they decided that they needed to open that to see what was in there. They my son who has like, very curly.

40:06 Afro hair at that time. For some reason, the security people decide they need to run their fingers through his hair to see if you was hiding anything. So we've experienced a variety of things like that. I've been pulled over or talk to I guess when I come back from countries and and ask you one person, one of the immigration people intervened and said, I'm very sorry when they found out that professional interest in Virginia. Tell her I'm very sorry, you know, just go on. So so your it was your job title and what you did that caused them to do to change your mind. Interesting.

40:56 Okay, so we can go out forever. So yeah, so I appreciate Canada because it is a very Multicultural country, actually, truly. But when I was growing up in Canada in the late 70s,

41:22 There weren't that many.

41:25 People of color, and, and people of Indian origin or South Asian origin for Visible minorities. And I would be call Packy on the street all the time. So, you know, and then we actually had like kids who threw eggs at our house. Well and so is it sounds really bad on her back and say this. So, I mean go coming to the u.s. To do knowing that there was

41:56 Difficult Choice, actually, leaving Canada, then going to the US, but there were opportunities. Like I said, let me job opportunities. I actually tried to apply to a lot of places that were like in warmer parts of the US having grown up in Canada. If I'm going to go to a place with people carry guns, that I would rather go to a place where I'm warm.

42:18 Listen to have got to get chocolate Wisconsin and they said so cuz I didn't know how to go to university. It was all I knew was that cold wife. I want to fly in a place like that. So I did apply. And when I went to the interview, this is all you're going to get used to this kind of weather. So she so I ended up being there. But but yeah, it's kind of some of the worries that we had. We got to ask you a quick question. Both responded. If somebody asked you what's one thing you can do to make sure I was full of better place to live. What was your response be?

43:07 I I think this is to have more cultural events, actually feel like interactions between people of different cultures and really promote that kind of thing. I know having grown up in Canada, that really helped a lot to do to see when I go back to Canada. Now. It's no big deal. I mean, there are people of

43:32 From all over the world and they're accepted as Canadians. That, I think that would be really cool to see here in Charlottesville. I think I'd like to see something like this, but on a wider scale have a round table and of five or ten people. Everybody of different Origins, different ethnicities, and put some very difficult questions on the table and have everybody talk about that because I think, if, if you get people together in a relaxed setting and have a talk about things like this, then, I think there might be a better understanding of everybody background, and hopefully lead to that some changes that it's not about. I want this. And then another group says, oh, I disagree and you come on the paper with your opinions and nothing gets done, or no one group ends up leaving as if they were marginalized. So I'd really like to see something along those lines. I think it would help us greatly having conversations.

44:32 Understanding the other people people who look different from you, people have different religious beliefs.

44:40 Have the same struggles in life, you know, raising children hoping for the best. For your children, the happiness for your children and allowing being allowed the freedom to pursue what makes one happy without hurting somebody else.

44:58 And if we all understand that, then or think,

45:02 Having those conversations, and not a lot of fear of the unknown. I think that's what leads to misunderstandings and Prejudice.