Alexander Graziani and LaVerne Diggs

00:00 They think my name is Laverne Diggs. Our society would say that I'm elderly

00:08 Today's date is September 18th, 2020. I am located in McDonald Pennsylvania suburb of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania about 19 miles outside of Pittsburgh. The name of my partner is Alex and

00:28 I know my relationship to my partner is that we're going to have a good time today learning to know one another.

00:38 My name is Alex and I'm 49. Today's date is September 18th 2020 and I'm coming from Springfield today, which is where I work and it is a small bedroom community a suburb of Pittsburgh and I work where I live in Greensburg, Pennsylvania. My partner today is Laverne and I agree. We're going to have a delightful time doing the one story. Here are one step for storycorps.

01:06 All right, and here is the first question Alex?

01:11 So why did you want to do this interview today?

01:18 Because I don't think there are enough opportunities for individuals who have different views and different philosophies to sit down and have a conversation with one another. I've not had that opportunity before now to have a Frank and honest conversation and then so this is my opportunity and I hope I will get more we don't see this much and I agree with you we got on and I also agree with the second part. I don't get to do this at all. I mean it seems like off and I don't mean it all but for the most part we're in a bubble and we talked to never work with people who deceive the name much like son is very rare that we get a chance to speak without drugs.

02:05 Show me when I look at the answer to the question.

02:09 I love story Corps and my heart is advertised on the radio that they were doing something like this. I was like, oh I got to do that. So, you know, how is your driving and you think I'm going to wait till I get to put on I got to get the information in NM that cannot work for me.

02:27 So can I ask a follow-up question?

02:30 You say you don't have an opportunity to do this kind of thing to have Frank conversations with someone who is not like you or doesn't have the same philosophies as you might have.

02:44 Are you always in an environment where you are around people who agree or have the same philosophy that you have? You don't have the opportunity to be exposed to other people whether you're having the conversations are not our primary wanted to work environment. I'm a local government manager and that means I get to work with everybody and the current Community. I'm working with the political philosophy is different from the last Community I worked in and so at that level, you know, I have a lot of different people get to interact with but you know, what's it's in a professional Collegiate level, you know, like how should we honor property? What do we do about the storm water issue? You know what we got to do to improve recycling in Turkey in each other, you know, they're local government issues. You know, when you look at National politics your local government people often say in the Democratic Republic

03:44 Tennis shoes on flight, you know abortion in the world are some of the issues related to even gender issues are things. We don't talk a lot about it local government because the garbage being picked up in the Rosemead Cloud. There's the depressants of the urgent that kind of you you bleed really talked a lot about those issues taxes how we spend money, you know, what's the church home that I identify with a church because of religious beliefs and convictions you tend to have a lot of people with your religious beliefs and convictions. The way the communities are laid out. Those also can be very racially.

04:34 Segregated in separated and isolated

04:39 I understand.

04:42 I dropped the second question in Lavergne. Could you read Alex's bio out loud as written and then ask the question. Okay. I am a committed Christian who tries to do everything through a Christian worldview. I have been married to Eva 4/31 years and we were married as teenagers. We have five children and have homeschooled all of them. I work in local government and have been in and around serving government for over 25 years. I think hard too defined my

05:17 2 defined by any political label like Republican or Democrat? I am registered independent. I am brace freedom in most areas like conscience and economics. Could you further explain that last sentence for me? The rest of it is real clear for me. I use I've worked in government. So I understand all of that but it wasn't clear for me the statement that you Embrace freedom in most areas like conscious and economics most part. Yeah the market creates when when it's like a capitalist Market both sides.

06:01 Get when you know when you get a coffee at Starbucks you say thank you and the person who's going with you says thank you. And there's this idea that this was short-changed, you know, some kind of at the most basic level economic freedom and it's going to create winners and losers but it but it grows greatly the you come across a lesser McCain's Enos, you know where you would be, you know, I demand economics much more building freedom of freedmen to Orem Adam Smith kind of economic choices working out great for both sides in general conscience are quite frankly that we're dealing with

07:01 You know what the brace I may be going to break the choices, but I love the we live in a society that allows for the choices. I don't work sample.

07:12 Think it's the greatest idea to identify if you were born as a male to female, but I love the idea that we live in the country that allows for the ultimate to give me the despite some of the confusion craziness that could be like how to redo bathrooms. How do we do girls cross-country, you know, when a guy decides I'm a I'm a girl today and I want to write you know, all of them confusion that I could create a kind of okay with so we could buy look at conscience. There's really nowhere you can start to say there shouldn't be freedom.

07:48 Your freedom of expression freedom of press freedom to assemble freedom to address your concerns ultimately for me. Yeah that freedom of religion that comes with a believable want to believe you work and kill each other for stuff like that. And then the United States would try to figure out a way to skip neon killing each other for that. But what it led to is every is I'm under the sun and what it is leading to another copter is a large in a kind of this Freedom that leads to human autonomy being able to sell to find okay with that and I love being able to be able to talk about all those things and being not worried about

08:28 Cancel culture saying something's wrong saying you can't pick from but

08:35 Can I get arrested for doing it don't make sense. I think we're going through some of that today and our society the freedom of conscience the freedom to for example, the controversy that we're dealing with today not wear a mask. I have the freedom not to do that. Even if it's going to possibly bring harm to someone else, someone else to be ill

09:02 How do you feel about that? I think that I love the freedoms. I love living in a country that gives me the freedoms or they say I have the freedoms that everybody else has but I really don't I don't believe I do I feel that.

09:20 Everyone should wear masks that we should protect one another isn't that the Christian thing to do that? We take care of one another. So for that reason, I think that in order for if we all believe that there is indeed a Corona 19 virus and some people don't I believe that it is and I believe that the best way in other countries have shown that this is the case the best way to be safe and keep others safe is to wear a mask. So that's just one of the examples that I would give in like I agree with you that

09:57 We should have economics that are good for everyone.

10:04 But we don't I don't guess there is a perfect world but in a democracy, I think one of the things that we should strive for is to make sure that everybody has the same opportunity if we're democracy and everybody has equal rights than everybody should have equal rights. So thanks, I understand. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I Now understand Alex first. Would you mind a reading Laverne's by on asking a question, but I'm getting a little bit of feedback in your headphones. Could you try maybe unplugging your headphones? I think it's just like the microphone. So maybe if it's not in that house the Indian noise.

10:55 Okay.

10:57 That's fine. Can you say something now?

11:02 I can't hear you Alex. Can you hear him liquor? No, I can't I can't hear you Alex. Maybe the headphones back on was better now can't hear you yet.

11:21 No, I still can't if that's it's okay, if that if we can just put the headphones back in and maybe that'll be the best way to do it.

11:28 Don't don't apologize.

11:44 What's can't hear you Alex Berry now?

11:49 No, I don't know what you're saying.

11:56 Note can't hear you. Did you just plug my headphones back into to normal?

12:14 I wonder if Alex if you can we'll just say that this is a pause in the conversation.

12:27 Alex if you can try there should be you just plug your headphones back in like normal right in the same spot. Let me see if doing this.

12:42 You say something.

12:46 No still not yet. Maybe if you try leaving the room and coming back in that might help.

13:08 He physically left the room. Oh, no, not you leaving the room Alex just the the the the digital room.

13:16 Let me see if I I don't think I can take him out.

13:29 Alex can you hear me?

13:32 I'm not when I said leave the room. I think I meant I meant digitally like if you did really leave the room and then come back Inn.

13:44 Sorry, if you want to send things like you can type it in the message box, but I think if you click out and click back in. All right, let's try that.

13:53 Sorry Laverne.

13:57 Technical things are going to be using the audio for it. All right?

14:09 Hey there. Hello? Yes, we can hear perfectly. All right, great. Sorry about that Interruption, but we can just start Alex. If you can know you can get one of the funniest things. I can't wait to tell my kids how stupid I am. Well, I'm happy that there's at least once a day I get to tell him my stupidity. So yeah. Alright. Well if you want we can just start with you reading a Lowrance by asking a question specifically around it.

14:51 I am married with two adult children. My family moved to South Fayette Township from the Hill district. When I was 13 years old my husband two children and I left Pittsburgh in Orange County, California. And we lived in California for several years before moving back to South Fayette Township years ago.

15:10 Most of my career was spent in higher education and city government.

15:16 So for me when I read that so I was super intrigued because I when I think of California General in Pennsylvania, very different sides of the world and you know to have lived here and spent you know, 10 years or so there. How did that work with what got you where and was the tell me the story on Kayla. Actually, we went to California about 30 years and then moved actually move to Arizona before coming here. We went to California. My husband worked for Rockwell.

15:59 At that time and he know he work for Westinghouse here in Pittsburgh. And then he took a job at Rockwell in Orange County, California. So we move there. It was a wonderful experience when I'm about a month before we moved from Pittsburgh. I was looking for a house to live in a rental and I looked in the newspaper and found one. I think it was in Brookline and I called I was working at the University of Pittsburgh at that time at the secretary. So I called them and I called the number and said I was interested in would like to come by after work to see it and the lady on the other end said great. How about 5:30?

16:50 Got there.

16:52 As my husband I got out of our car. There was a woman parked in front of the house and she got out right away very hurriedly to catch up to us before we got on the stairs going up to the front of the house. And she said are you Laverne and I suggest she said it's been rented.

17:14 So I filed a complaint with the I think it was a human resource of Human Service organization. And the the result of that was if she ever rented the house again, she would have to let me know that was shortly after that. We had an opportunity new job to move to California, which was wonderful and while there we were able to look every place for a house in Orange County. I must say I was a little nervous about moving there because everybody was telling me my friends and family that that's where the Birch Society was and I would probably not have a very good time there, but we had no problems at all in Orange County. We looked at homes that were million dollars not that we were going to buy them, but they were brand-new being built and we wanted to see them and the real estate people there were

18:13 Just as interested in selling ice one of those very very expensive homes. And it was a wonderful experience. We ended up buying a home in Orange County, California. My kids went to a really great school and that's because California is really even back then in 1973. I think it was when we left so much diversity there so much diversity and my children had a wonderful time at school when we left here. My children had a difficult time in school. So it was wonderful, but that's what took us there. And we stayed as long as we did because it was just a wonderful place to live until the freeways got so crowded and I got tired of being on the freeways for almost 2 hours. Sometimes just to go 30 or 35 miles. So and my family is here and there comes a time. I think in everyone's life when they are away from family as they get older they want to be

19:13 Post to family so that's what brought us back.

19:17 You know, you weren't video. I'm going to jump in Alex real quick. And then you can go live on. Can you explain you said your kids had a much easier time and Orange County going to school there then then here. I was wondering if you could expand a little bit us. Why are they were in grade school? And they had the typical kinds of things that kids do that can be hurtful. The teachers would step in and trying to bring a stop to it verse is when we were here we moved from we moved from near Mount Lebanon. That's where we that's what we eventually lived and we moved my kids went to school there. They had a terrible time. I had to go up to the school a lot. They were called terrible names they wanted kids wanted to fight in. This is Elementary School.

20:15 We didn't have that in elementary school in Orange County just a typical little things that kids will say that are not nice sometimes but if I went up to the school day, they would take care of it not I went up to the schools in Mount Lebanon and it was almost like it was my child's fault that they were being called names and followed home and it was very difficult. So but again, you know, my kids went to school where there were a lot of Spanish-speaking Hispanic people's a Vietnamese not a lot of those but a lot, you know different kind of the people and it made it easier for everybody in California, and I didn't experience is much going to South Fayette.

21:04 Elementary or middle school and high school sure, there were some kids that weren't very nice, but I have friends and you know, I was raised in a home where we were taught him six of us and we were taught that we were no better or no worse, but we were just as good so I had no feelings of inferiority and I made a few friends, but I didn't have a lot. I'm an introvert so it wasn't easy for me to make friends, but I did have some friends and I had it easier than I think my kids had when they were in elementary.

21:43 Did you move from Pittsburgh to South Fayette when you were Middle School junior high school to be doing anything? That's true. That's true. And it was very difficult to make the move and to not be around people who look like me. I spent the first year and and School here in South Fayette. I didn't speak. I did not speak in school, but when I got home if I was called upon if the teacher called upon me out of state, but I didn't speak to anybody for my first year.

22:19 Have a great segue to the question. We have before us who has been the most influential person in your life. And what did they teach you in? The reason to check way is because the person who's taught me the most is an introvert and I'll wait for that answer. So when you think of that and we had this question a little bit of in our intro what how do you answer the question who for you Levert has been the most influential person in your life. And what did they teach you? How did they influence you I would say my parents my dad work for the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette us up.

23:02 He worked in the he was a mechanic. He kept the presses running and my mom did domestic work for a while and Faith hot me the view of artwork the value of Education. My parents moved here to South Fayette so that we could get a good education. It was shortly after the legislation passed board versus

23:27 Brown Brown versus Board of Education that was the impetus that brought my parents way out here away from what they're six kids were used to sew education was very important to my family. My mom probably had a ninth grade education. My dad may have had a 11th grade education. They were they were raised and working during the Depression. So they understood the value of a dollar and they taught me that as well. If you don't have the cash to buy something you don't buy it. So so baek. They told me the value of Education. They taught me the importance of treating others the way I would want to be treated. I was raised in a Christian home.

24:19 I was raised in the very strict Pentecostal religion and we learn Bible verses and let me some of them to this day, you know come to mine situation occurs in that battle. Come to me. So those values help me to have the successes that I believe I've had in my life. So my parents are the ones that had a great influence on me as an adult. Did it did it change more? I mean did you know moving an energy World expanded you were their authors or other people in a political control or whatever that that influence you like? You read every one of their books or you had to you know, you followed them.

25:13 I can't think of another person that had the influence on me that my parents did. I mean after I live with my parents that I was there for many many years and even after I was an adult moved away and before they passed they took being influence in my life and the lives of my children. I read a lot and there are a lot of authors that I like but I wouldn't say there's an author for example that influence me or anything that I've read and I read a lot I went to school a long time. But nothing that I read influenced me as much as my parents because they struggled

25:52 They did not have it easy when we moved out here. It was wonderful when we moved to South Fayette Township, but they still work very hard.

26:04 And so the value of hard work. There's nothing wrong with hard work and I learned that from them and I find today that that's not important to a lot of the young people today. They don't want to work.

26:16 Laverne yes, I am asking is Laverne to ask a question to see you Alex just so we can move on cuz I'm Alex who has been the most influential person in your life. And what did they teach you? So when I read the question quickly three names popped into my mind. And in this order my Lord Jesus Christ John Piper who is a pastor teacher author and then my wife Eva and Eva is the introvert and I would not have answered it that way last year or five years ago. My wife and I have been married for 31 years and one of the things has been delightful is to is is experiencing my appreciation of my wife more now than ever. I only I wish you could have a clue of how much potential is that it's going to get way better. No matter how much they think they're in love.

27:16 And how wonderful the world seems to be in its fairy tales and rainbows and unicorns dancing up in yet. And so my wife who is an introvert infected one of the books she read this year. And then she had me read was you know, I don't know if it's how to live with an injured bird or what it is to be an introvert so I can I better understand. What's that like she but she is so profoundly influenced me I think throughout our lives together if she would have reacted a different way. We're not been positive about a certain thing or been willing to take on something we would not have been would not have done it and I would be so different for it and a year or two ago. I would have answered that way. I might not have had ever as my wife a person whose influence me that is you mention parents, you know, there's no way to escape, you know apple. Don't fall far from the tree and

28:16 I seen my dad my mom passed a few years ago, but my dad and many of the things he does he and I are kind of wire many ways the same way and my mom and and this and so forth it. Yeah, it's a I think we're such a blessed time to be able to have what you had on me. I want to hear you talk about your your father and your mother. I recently read a book by Booker T Washington that he was

28:45 An amazing human about hard work and he said that exactly what your parents had said no better no worse that that saying was something at the Tuskegee Institute. He drilled into everyone but there is no human almost cannot work the guy who's crazy here at he worked hard and nothing came easy and nnn that is universal and goes on forever.

29:17 So our next question is could you briefly describe in your own words Laverne your personal political values?

29:27 Well, I'm a registered Democrat. I should say a proud registered Democrats.

29:34 My mic litical values are I am a Democrat because in my view that is the party truly for the people for the masses not just for the 1% That is the party that make sure that people who are elderly and don't have much can be taken care of. That is the party that brought Social Security. That is the party that takes care of not just the elderly but the poor and the sad thing about that whenever I say that I think about the

30:09 Number large number of poor people in Los Angeles California living on the streets. It's awful. But the the Republicans I don't believe that their policies allow for that kind of taking care of the masses. I think that's all that's in my mind the difference between the Democratic party and the Republican party. I mean as a Christian I have to be reminded that

30:43 We're supposed to do this to the least of these the least of those are supposed to be those that we take care of not the 1% and I often wonder how much is enough money. How much does it take before somebody some of the very very rich people in the 1%

31:05 Say I have enough now. I have I have Bloomberg. He's going to give 100 million dollars to a political cons yet. There are people sleeping on the streets and nearly all of our city. So that's where I am politically the party that and of course my parents were so

31:32 You're not listening to their discussions wasn't so much. What can the Democratic party do for me today?

31:40 But what are they doing for the people who really have need, you know the soup lines. I'm sure my parents saw that thank God they didn't have to stand in any during the Depression but the Democrats will likely be serving the soup.

31:55 Not not to be publican's. So that's that's my answer. I'll try not to be so long with my ancestors. I mean, I think you did a good job of articulating, you know, the the values that that you cherish within the Democratic party, I guess what I struggle with and you know, I mentioned in my biography that the whole Republican Democrat be a lot of on both sides latitudes, but but very little in the way of of action and in change the you know, I got a chuckle couple things, you know, the the Democratic vice president candidate Joe Biden says he wants to do in the first week and I'm thinking you've been there for fifty years. Can you get some of those done and you know before you were the vice president for eight years if you were going to get this done in the first week or executive order?

32:52 How come you know so I kind of feel like I hear a lot what I want to hear you say I love and is Meaningful and is passionate important. I feel like at the end of the day. It's almost like

33:04 Is a needle moving, you know what we vote for these people because they say those things did they deliver or does it just wear like recycle at the next 4 years? So for me, you're absolutely right, you know the issues of the least of these are Howard to be and as individuals the Lord will hold us accountable for those things. You know, did you need the second boat? Did you need the third house? You going to be really and we're going to be very uncomfortable is as we realized before almighty God that all is being exposed and made the air and every word even the idle ones will give an account for so there's no doubt. That's where we are to be as individuals motivated the challenges. You know, how how can governments to do that is in that is that the role of government, you know, when in the Constitution they talk about the general welfare, you know in my mind the government was to do all it could to make sure things were Fair.

34:04 Just the way it came to the distribution of wealth.

34:09 Sinful, man is never going to do a good job of figuring out how to do that. Well, whether to take the visuals or is government still struggle with I love your heart because it's heartbreaking to think of people even tonight in Pittsburgh and around Community who don't have a bed and and people not having a meal that's absurd. We're well see that shouldn't be but it's me in the mirror than a struggle with what am I doing to move the needle if I vote for someone who said they'll do something and they haven't for 40 years. Am I really doing much and that's why I struggle with

34:50 Can I put okay just go ahead and so no matter how hard I I like to use the example of the Obamacare the health center program. We have a system. So one person may be passionate and really want to do the right thing, but can't get it through the system. So I understand what you're saying and it makes sense.

35:26 And I wanted to ask you both now that you kind of brought up this interesting point Alex of the role of government. I suppose and how you both as

35:38 Individuals who have worked in local government and you know, very Municipal level Hands-On with people around you what your experience or a personal approach has been to that kind of work how you've interpreted the role of government while considering your own personal political beliefs liver and maybe if you want to go first and then Michael and I think government has a big role to play in terms of making sure that the citizens and their area are taking care of that. The roads are free of potholes to the extent possible that the water is not poison to all of the other responsibilities that government has I've worked for large cities city of San Jose. I was the assistant city manager for the city of Norfolk.

36:31 And in South Fayette Township learning about Township government. I'm still learning but I think government has the responsibility to make sure that those who are paying taxes for services should have those services that those dollars should not be spent in places that don't necessarily benefit the citizens.

36:56 I think the citizens have a role to play as well. They need to show up at the meetings. That was the most frustrating thing for me. They would make an appointment with me to complain about what the mayor is doing though. I can't go slap the mayor's hands. That's my job the mirror reports to them, but they did not want to come so I think I think government has a big role and when I was working in government, I did everything that I could to connect with the citizens to find out what their immediate needs are. What kind of things were we not doing.

37:31 That would make the citizens life a little better in our community. What did they think we were doing that we really didn't need to be doing and I didn't have to agree with everything I said, but like we're having this conversation here. It's nice to have a conversation with a regular system a regular opportunity for citizens to come and meet with the I'd say the administrative staff city manager or town manager and just have a conversation and I don't think that's at least it didn't happen in any of the cities were out of work. I hope I've answered your question the referees in a basketball game, you know where we're kind of their two to make sure that the rules are adhered to and the participants get to do.

38:31 The funny part of playing the game and at the end of the game. Nobody talks about our role. Like they believe their ass when that is the start of a conversation about a game at usually didn't end. Well, either the controversy or call or the rest interjected themselves into the play. But when all they can talk about is wow. Did you see those shots? Did you see that block? Did you see that play? And so I think the role of government is to fill out for people to pursue their happiness and do what we can to make sure things are safe while Ron Munroe look like Jeffersonian in that thought. I know Jefferson as president did some pretty big things like Louisiana Purchase that it's hard. It was sort of like a local government is the best government because of what it does when I talk to Mary about this I go as far as when I look at the roles of government, you know, certainly the common defense the judicial system the courts the roads those things that are the boundaries if you will of how Society can run in the rails that it

39:31 Brakes on but when it starts getting into systems like education I think government is over extended its role in his off ground, you know, its function it's gone beyond, you know that the Constitutional in this state spear God has given us authority to family to the church if you will take the government and he's given power and for influences in the private sector in education in in media, you know, there's Spears Ben Folds, but I feel like the government is overwhelming and overcoming all of them and it needs to be greatly limited. It doesn't I believe have a role in a lot of things like education or Healthcare. It's a rule maker, you know to the degree that you know has courts, whereby if people are poisoned and died or malpractice occurs, you know, they can

40:28 Take those issues to that but it's not to be the provider of services in that level, you know, and then so I'm that's why I love about local government because local government the scope is so tight all we got is forever and water and sewer and that's kind of what we do.

40:46 If we didn't have government and are involved in state universities, there are a lot of people that would not be able to pursue their dream through education.

40:58 Not everyone comes from families that are of great means. So I I disagree. I worked at the California State University system for 25 years before I retired and

41:15 There would be a lot of young people who are bright. Very smart capable would not be able to fulfill their dreams if the government wasn't involved in some way and agitation. So I

41:31 And I think that the that the government at the local level could do better we should not have inner cities where the trash is not picked up like it's picked up in the suburbs.

41:45 That should not happen government should be fair at the local level as well as at the federal level and I don't think that is the case. So I think about when I worked on a campus, I meant a lot of very smart chips that were on scholarship would not have been able to be in those Schools and Government does have a role I believe. I mean that's what the taxes are for. We're paying for those things.

42:14 This observation make obviously is is very true in the way. Our system is involved and developed and when you look at the land grant colleges in 1863, the law was passed in the Constitution or the Congress Congress. It was fractured because of the Civil War and a lot of people understood the value of that land grant and what it could be for educating people in and I've worked at Penn State which was a land grant College Cornell. Let me know so many of them were and I understand that the value of those things but you know, it's because all we know is government kind of running those there are parts of the world and other places that education is highly valued and then it in in the masses to get access to popular Education Without government involvement. What concern is if you look at the cost of Education

43:08 Big universities with gigantic buildings and sports Arenas and all kinds of crazy Taj Mahal dormitories in the buildings that they have that's not what Educators young people but that's why they cost so much, you know, it's because their shoes and and and and the cost of going into the bricks-and-mortar education the kids the student-faculty the book that they buy the things that they learn you like my children were able to get college degrees basically from home online without is it expensive over and of dormitories in cafeteria Francis, but it is very complicated at all, but I would argue that people value education and like your parents you joke. You said it heard the day 9th, June eleventh grade education and probably were smarter than me and they probably knew more, you know the idea of an eighth grade education when you look at one another eighth grade education.

44:08 In 1890 was super high compared to what it is Graeter's getting today. And that's the tragedy that so much has been on education yet. Our results are just horrendous and and unfortunately many people solution is more government involvement in education and I don't see the evidence that it's successful at the end has First Volunteer. Well, I'm very blessed that I went all the way through school without

44:40 Student loans are very blessed. Remember I said my dad said if you can't afford it you shouldn't have it. So I think that if we didn't have government involvement in education, you know, I just go back to what I said there would be so many people who today have contributed so much to this country because they were able to have government loans or whatever else. It may have been that got them through school. I I can only reiterate that if we don't have that our classrooms would not look the same, you know, when a lot of people had problem with affirmative action.

45:25 If affirmative action didn't happen on an equal basis, which is really what it is is taking an affirmative action not to say give somebody something who isn't deserving but take a take an action that will make it possible. For more people to get Under the Tent when I taught at Arizona State University. I was thrilled when the indigenous people it would be someone from the indigenous population in my comments.

45:54 Because that are Hispanic I was thrilled to have a diverse classroom without the government involvement it would be

46:05 It would be an all white classroom and they wouldn't get a chance to learn your students learn from one another as much as they learned from the professor and when they come with different ideas different values different experiences. That's an education in itself for the rest of the students the other students that are in the class. So I think it would be tragic if the government took the position that they would not be involved at all and education in this country. It was I think I would say go ahead with what you're going to say a few things where we're at private contributions.

46:55 You know, it wasn't a government start identity. It was people who felt that free blacks needed education and he was tireless and traveling all over the country and even into your to raise money for that people like Andrew Carnegie begrudgingly begrudgingly gave money, but they did and we have about we got overtime. So I'm going to name you like about 8 minutes left. We can have a few more exchanges on this and then I'm going to wrap it up with a few questions that you can choose from so Too Close Alex. I was going to say if you wanted to speak wondrous you had mentioned your children's education earlier and how they were what how maybe one of them. I'm not sure if they balk off your college Butt-head obtain degrees online and if maybe you could speak to your personal experience with your children and how you've chosen.

47:55 I like structure their education and how that's kind of been a manifestation of your beliefs beautiful education is wonderful and ultimately at the heart of education is is the theological construct one way or the other, you know, when we pursue geometry my wife and I believe were astronomy or whatever, you know, we're seeing or thinking the thoughts after God and it's a theological contract been than most most important education gives the world. It gives the students and it shapes the students and how they view the world. So for my wife and I we we just were convicted that we threw the love of our children wanted them to have the view that God was in everything and he was to be glorified and everything in that we would have the most Joy when we enjoyed him and seeing him and everything and we

48:55 Realize that that wasn't going to happen at the public schools that at its heart education is theology the education theological and even a theological position that God doesn't exist is theological, you know, a few of them is biological. So the government schools trying not to be establishing religion is that was his religion of godlessness in the education system. So for us we just couldn't do that. We felt convicted that the best way to win the hearts of our children and shapes our hearts was too and we were blessed to be able to do it to invest our time in them. You don't educate them at home and my wife I mentioned her before my goodness, meaning of five kids. They all learn differently some summer after eating and some are good readers call and some got nothin some couldn't in my wife change curriculums and change methods and changed everything and she managed to keep all her hair.

49:55 Quit because she just poured herself out for them and a couple of them have been able in their attending one is finished his degree, but it took a lot longer than 4 years because you didn't take out loans. He worked almost full-time the whole time. He went to school full-time as much as he could. So what normally took four years for him to get a degree. He finished and 7 p.m. Habitat, and and unfortunately, Co good is common crushed some of those job opportunities and he's struggling it's tough mentally but bad for him. It was beautiful to see him have the discipline to do that because obviously at that point and I weren't doing anything with the school but his love of learning we saw his pursuit of learning and his passion to get through classes when you didn't have to innocence Friday could quit anytime and then he wasn't stuck at school kind of having to get through this semester. So yeah, that's that's why I talked about the role of government.

50:55 Education is such an important thing and I love your career in your dedication to education knowing that.

51:02 An uneducated mind is sad and heart going to be almost impossible to achieve things, you know within our culture in it. And so I value it greatly. It's just kind of the way we went about a little different.

51:16 So, is there anything that you think your children might be lacking by?

51:24 Being homeschooled. I think it's wonderful. I I I know that children who are home-schooled do well in your careers. They're very bright people. Do you feel that? There's anything that your children might whack because this sounds like and I don't know this to be the case in every situation but it sounds like homeschool children are kind of in a bubble and when they have to get out of that bubble sometimes in life, it's difficult for them. Sure. That's a wonderful question that we think a lot about that everyone tried as best. I can to parents of a Child near they don't let him play in the street or certainly don't encourage him to go hang out at the local bar. You know, we're always setting boundaries and putting protective me a picture of her children, but that's what the ology gets back in at once things. That's great about our our our house our Christian worldview help us understand that humans are falling in there for us included mom and dad.

52:22 Are are capable of all kinds of evil and craziness and it's a broken world with a lot of pain a lot of suffering and a lot of harm because of the pain so we have conversations the dinner table and we talked about history or we talked about subjects. We talked a lot about the pain and hurt and harm that goes on. So, you know, what our kids were certainly spared some peer pressure things that they may have experience in public school settings, but they weren't shielded from the reality of how hard humans can be to one another and the the the craziness that comes with humans to Planet like Earth. I mean just turned on the news and it's hard even to watch the session of it because of the Heartbreak and the hurt that goes on Humanity humanity and try not to buy anything with our kids when we talked and we try to talk about the realness of mom and dad struggles. You have struggles to be married in and have Fidelity within marriage.

53:22 And have a commitment this place long and how do you do that? Will you do with protecting your heart in your mind, you know be careful little mind what you read be careful little heart with you. Thank you to this kind of thing and that why because we're susceptible to just doing wrong. And so that is not good Laverne. Do you fix something that you you ask that question about homeschooling that I think after this we can just transition to some of those clothes and questions. But is there something that you think public education provides that you that you really values that you think is different in your own life experience, like whether it's mentoring young students as a as a employee in that field.

54:15 I think that homeschooling on one hand is great because I think it's good for the parents. I think it protects the parents helps them to feel very safe about their children. I think what's missing and again, this is just for my experience teaching kids in school.

54:37 Graduate students

54:39 I'm sad when I come across a young person who knows nothing about other cultures. I mean they know from the book book learning but they haven't experienced other cultures and that makes me very sad because they usually my experience they pull away from those who are different. They gravitate to those who are like them and though so they never get to chance to have in my opinion a full education. I learned so much from the indigenous students that I taught and learned that they're they're quiet. They're very polite. They're not loud or not boisterous and they're very smart.

55:24 I love that has stopped teaching.

55:29 And that's something that my children learned in in Arizona and then California should say primarily in California. They embraced they were able to embrace differences.

55:41 From all the different kinds of people that was wonderful to watch them have friends who were not like them who they argued with infant with and got mad at friends again because they learned that they were all the same. We may look different. We may have an accent but we are all the same and that's what my children learned and I'm sad when I have a student in my class and I can spot some very easily who have been protected. So in one way or another maybe not homeschooling but in some other fashion and they're they're lost. It's sad but on the other hand homeschooling is good for the parents. You're so right the fear that we've always struggled with and it's it's really Western Pennsylvania thing. You contrasted the diversity of the other places you've lived with Western Pennsylvania, despite having National, whatever numbers of normal.

56:41 Whatever that is, we have adversity here. We experienced very little about her in anywhere in the end. When I look at the school district's weather in Penn Trafford out in our area or Franklin Regional and their monocultures for the most part, you know, the greens. I live in Westmoreland County Westmoreland County and local color white Moreland County. It's just isn't diverse. So we we we struggle with that. I almost regret that in Western Pennsylvania and it's kind of hard. Sometimes we think about that. So when we go away and when we talk about things again today, and I'm not saying it's perfectly me talk about and we try to be able to go different places. So we stayed at a B&B and one of the most diverse places in an Airbnb in Toronto is a very mixed neighborhood. It was a house similar artists are we don't do a very fancy house. It was we wanted to be immersed in something different so when we went

57:41 Supposed to get coffee. We are in a very different spot. We try to intentionally do this, but I know at the end of the day, it's really hard in Pennsylvania to have what you've experienced in California. The richest I remember once going to a place in California. I feel like I'm stepping on her if I saw so many colors and beauty and differences God Delights in the mercy could have one flower One Planet him a hundred thousands of them because it's beautiful but I don't experience here and that's the weather in school or not school. It's a struggle. You're right on on Madden. My my wife when are public school products and I'm thankful for that amazing people who work in my life because of that. So I am worried about his parents to do better. I'm going to stop right there. You are a manager in a community.

58:41 I believe you can make a difference. Thank you. I hope you have that. You have the power to do that. Thank you. You're welcome. Yeah, it's hard. It's really hard to stay on time also know that if you feel strongly you can also have another conversation at some point LaVergne. Could you ask pick one of those three questions to ask Alex and Alex? Could you ask one of Laverne, please?

59:12 Okay. Is there anything you learned about me today that surprised you?

59:18 I'm very much more curious about all of this the connections, you know again, I'm so excited about you know, I'm what did you teach and and you know, you're tired. I guess it's one of the Arizona universities and all that. I was surprised though be specific kind of question your your experience in school.

59:42 Cuz I thought I would have thought that you would maybe have more challenges the young girl you you you protected yourself and you didn't speak and maybe that was a safe thing to do, but I was a surprise. I thought you may have would have said that it was harder and it was negative her but it didn't sound to be as bad as I would have expected it to be such a culture shock.

01:00:09 I was fortunate that when I came home from school. I didn't have a lot of complaints the students really weren't awful. The teachers were very very good in South Fayette Township. They really kind of protected the only other people of color in that school when I moved out when we moved out here in my Bissell Brothers. I had a I had two younger brothers that were in the school with me and we had each other we were and I was at two grades ahead of my one brother and three grades ahead of the other but my mom would always say if I complained, you know, I can't do this problem. It's too hard. Oh, you'll figure it out. Just what she would say eighth grade education. She couldn't help me with my algebra, but I didn't take it that way. She said and it's the best advice. She ever could have given me your cigarettes and ideas.

01:01:07 So for me the question is how can we come together after device election year and good luck with that answer, man. I think that everyone on social media should not be on it. And I think that's the first step. In fact that made the statement today to my husband. I'm soon going to give up my phone and my computer. I don't want anybody popping in on me when I'm trying to send a voicemail or an email these ads that pop in too much control over what I want to do what I want to read. So that made me somewhat facetiously but I think I think discussions like this people are listening to both sides of the aisle. So to speak and those those people on each other side of the aisle. It's so much divisiveness how many opposites you know where the Republicans are saying?

01:02:07 Thinking about the Democrats and the Democrats are saying another ugly thing about the Republicans. I think we need to have these kind of conversations so that I get to know you as I'm guessing an Evangelical Christian, is that a good guess so I need to have more conversations like this and I think you and your family children. Why should have more conversations? We in this country. We don't talk to one another we listen to the news Fox News and MSNBC different signs of things and then we choose a side and you know, a lot of people don't know. I'm here in South Fayette Township majority-white and I'm doing everything that I can to get to know them. I started visiting.

01:02:55 Before this thing started I started going to United Methodist Church. They were shocked when I walked in but we love one another now. I'm the only one there, but they know me and I know them so only one what level I'm the only African-American

01:03:14 In there and they really really open their arms to me and when they have their potlucks I get to meet them. I don't sit with the same people all the time. I I want to know them and I want them to know me and we as a people we need to take that risk. I took the risk to go into a place that was all white and they accepted me and until like I said until the cove at started I was going there every Sunday and I'm fact today. I sent a car to appoint their elderly. All of them makes me feel very young. So they they send out information. They have my email and they send out information when someone's in the hospital or someone has a loved one. That's that's past and I can send a car to them. That's wonderful. I don't think I'm not saying I'm doing anything so great, but it's an easy thing to do. It's an easy thing to do.

01:04:14 I'm going to stop us there. And is there anything next final closing comment? You'd like to short comment? Like say to each other at all? Just grateful. I'm so thankful that you you set this up and I agree with Laverne and wholeheartedly the more we forgot how to do this the better off we would be you know an end view earlier.

01:04:42 I was when I didn't hear back from you yesterday or whether we are going to do this or not a little bit relieved cuz my schedule is kind of busy. It's hard to find time to do stuff. I'm so thankful that we got to do this and got to meet. Thank you very much. I feel like I'm more informed. I don't have any preconceived notions as I once did about Evangelical Christians. So I'm glad to have met you Alex and I have learned a lot from you and I'm sure you have a wonderful family. Thank you. You're welcome. And thank you my dear Marie. Thank you for making this a good pair. You did a great job with this and I appreciate it.