Amy Richard and Alyse Nelson

Recorded June 10, 2021 Archived June 9, 2021 45:39 minutes
0:00 / 0:00
Id: ddv000862


Amy Richard (55) talks with her friend and colleague Alyse Nelson (47) about the evolution of her work in anti-trafficking. She recalls her work in the early 90s conducting interviews with human trafficking survivors through a fellowship, and explains how that led to her leading a task force on trafficking in persons and continuing the work to the present day.

Subject Log / Time Code

Amy traces back to the early '90s when her career in anti-trafficking began.
Amy talks about the term "trafficking in persons."
Amy discusses her initial research on human trafficking and the pushback she received from her colleagues. She recalls interviewing survivors through her fellowship.
Alyse explains how the framing of human trafficking as a security issue allowed it to gain traction and support.
Amy talks about the intelligence monograph (research) she finished towards the end of 1999 and how it led to her being in charge of developing a task force in 2001.
Amy talks about human trafficking as a bipartisan issue and how she sees that as an asset to its success in gaining support. She talks about the importance of including survivors in the work.
Amy talks about her quaker, anti-slavery, abolitionist ancestors and how it influences her work today.
Amy talks about how she derives inspiration from other survivors.
Amy talks about reasons she chooses to stay involved with anti-trafficking work.


  • Amy Richard
  • Alyse Nelson

Recording Location

Virtual Recording


Partnership Type

Fee for Service


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00:00 President CEO in a co-founder of vital voices, Global partnership. I'm 47 years old. And today is June 10th 2021. I am here recording with Amy O'Neill Richard. She has been a woman that I have looked up to and admired both professionally because she's an incredible leader and Pioneer but also personally because she really is such an incredibly committed sister daughter mother wife and friend.

00:38 Thank you, Elise.

00:41 My name is Amy, O'Neill, Richard. I am 55 years old. I am a senior advisor in the state Department's office to Monitor and combat trafficking. In persons. Today's date is Thursday, June 10th, 2021. My recording partner is Alyse Nelson. She is a long time. Dear friend. We have worked together in the mid-90s, at the president's interagency Council on women. She is one of the foremost leaders globally in elevating women's, political economic and social status and building Global Network of women. Today. I'm so honored to share my story and my journey of over two decades of combating human trafficking as part.

01:41 Department of Health and Human Services voices of Freedom initiative.

01:47 Amy. I am so honored to have be having this conversation with you because I feel as though I have had a front-row seat to all that you have done and this incredible journey that that you've been on and I just wondering is this really the first time that you had the opportunity to really reflect on these past twenty years that you've been on this journey.

02:12 You know, I think when you're in the thick of it, you're just constantly thinking about the urgency of the day and what you can be doing. And so this opportunity to step back and reflect on the last two decades. It has is really a gift. So, I'm so grateful that HHS asked me to be a part of it.

02:36 So let's get, let's get right into it because I know you have so much to share. Your story is so rich and obviously covers more than two decades. So the issue is human trafficking, modern day slavery. It's certainly been recognized. As both of us, know, is now one of the greatest challenges of our time, we have laws on the books. Now, we have Global treaty strong Advocates growing awareness, but you and I both know that wasn't always the case and back in the mid-1990s and our little office in the state department. This wasn't an issue. When you stumbled upon it and wrote the first-ever US government report on the issue. You have been an incredible leader and tinier and I think Amy what I admire about you so much, is it? You understand that, you know, will change real sustainable change can't be achieved overnight and you have stayed the course no matter. How difficult the path has been and we know it has been in.

03:36 Has a really building that strong Coalition of leaders who care about the issue. So take us back to the mid-1990s. We don't have social media. So it shows like this really are hidden. How did you first discover the issue of human trafficking?

03:58 Can I see? You're right. It was the mid-90s. I was working as an intelligence analyst, for the state Department's Bureau of intelligence and research. I was the transnational organized crime analyst, I had created this account and as such I was covering international, criminal, syndicates and Corruption, narcotics trafficking and migrant smuggling, and it was his just unusual time because the walls of the former Soviet Union and come down in the early 90s. And so, everybody was talking about the Nexus and Russian organized crime and business conglomerates and politicians and no, I was the crime analyst. And I read this article by former US ambassador to Austria swine hunt either we both know in foreign affairs magazine. It was August 97 and it was the first time

04:58 I actually heard concerns expressed about women and children in Central Europe in the former Soviet Union and it was shocking to me. It was sort of like, are you kidding me? What is human trafficking? And what is the intelligence Community doing about it late? Obviously, we're looking at things, like all those that have been narcotics trafficking. But what about the buying and selling of women and children in treating them as Commodities? So I discovered it wasn't on the radar.

05:35 Sort of Saw to do a piece. I wrote a piece in November, 97 entitled, international trafficking in women from Central Europe and the newly independent states. And then was asked to actually prevent or present my findings at a US Government. European Union event in Luxembourg. You not November in 97. So I did that report even before the other one and I was, I was pretty hooked on the issue.

06:11 Yeah, I remember back in 1997. Of course, 18 Huntley mentioned, who wrote that great piece. That was a, it was pretty Seminole because it did bring to light so many of the issues that were, you know, behind the scenes underground. And she then went on to host the first item with his conference that later became a series of conferences, but of course, that's what I was working on it. So I was hearing stories of well at grandmother's, you know talking about how there were no there. No young women in their Villages and they didn't know what was happening to them and there is so much power in getting something a name, but I don't know about you. The first time I heard the word trafficking in women and children.

07:02 I thought it was a disease trafficking in. What does that mean? Like, can you do you remember the first time you read that as a reading? No, swanny's piece and then you begin to read more. Did you recognize this was a global issue? Did you just think it was a regional issue?

07:22 You know, I think the term trafficking in persons is, is really sort of a little bit, regrettable, because you're right, there tends to be a lot of confusion around. You know, what, exactly. We're talkin about at its heart is yours, you know, you're talkin about exploitation enslavement people being treated as commodities for profit and I think in the early days, you know, I really came out at more from sort of an analytical perspective where, you know, I was looking at, okay, we have these criminal syndicates. They're capitalizing on poverty and Rising unemployment in the disintegration of social networks, in the region to traffic these individuals. You know, what can I do to shine a greater light on this issue and to elevate it to the point that policymakers want to

08:22 To do something, but I don't, I don't know that I fully recognize that the time how far the issue, you know, would become 20 years later.

08:34 So you have the opportunity to, to get a fellowship to be able to write this report. Can you talk a little bit about that report? It was the first-ever government report on this issue. Talk about the experience abroad and business. I recall as we shared an office at that time. And that year that you're so that you were working on that, that incredible report you were traveling a lot. You are obviously writing and researching, but you were really going to these places to see what was going on. First hand, if I will call you actually when I first saw it out to try and do this fellowship and was pitching it. I got to be honest, you know, I had some male colleagues bosses that says, oh, come on, isn't this really just sort of a soft human rights women's issue? Like it isn't this an issue that you know,

09:34 Democracy human rights and labor can cover, you know, populations refugees and migration can cover. And I sent this issue is indeed a human rights issue, but it's also a political issue. An economic issue, a national security issue, you know, what migration health issue. It's so much more. And after some convincing and negotiating, I was allowed to apply and I was selected for the exceptional intelligence analyst program. I did have the gift of a year to research and travel and write traveled to South, Asia, and Southeast Asia, and Europe. And within the United States. I was able to conduct over a hundred and fifty interviews, including with traffickers and some trafficking victims and conducted some research at Interpol headquarters.

10:33 But it wasn't so much the interviews. I think that, you know, that stand out my mind. It really was. This is where I think I can get a little emotional at times when I think back to being in South Asia and you know, seeing young girls are being trafficked and you know, they had pictures of movie stars just like young girls would on their walls or stuffed animals on their beds. And now as a mother with that having children myself, it just, you know, it was so horrible to realize that this is going on in the world and it wasn't trust, it wasn't just girls, you know, they're getting in commercial sex, you know, there was also instances of of just

11:28 Labor trafficking. And I remember the image of a young boy with a deformed back because he been tearing enormous ice packs on his back for long periods of time as part of his his daily work. And it was really those traveling experiences and and seen the harms up close and personal. But also I would say meeting with just the extraordinary non-governmental organisation, NGO leaders in the field and in some of those survivors that were doing everything in their capacity to to make an impact in, in to work on this issue. And I think it's those types of experiences where I just thought. Oh my God, this is it. This is the issue for me. Like I want this to be my, my life's work.

12:26 You know what? I think as, as you say Amy.

12:33 I have always felt the reason that this issue has gone so much traction and move so quickly quicker than other issues, that that I work on with her a child, marriage, or network women's economic empowerment. In this issue, has gotten so much traction because exactly what you say, you framed it, as a security issue, you know, it was not just so it's, you know, it's a, it's a migration issue or a woman's issue, obviously, be larger. As you say, then when you know, it is a human rights issue, used to know, this is a national security issue. And as we know, these things are so interconnected in terms of the trafficking of people in the trafficking of a lot of drugs and arms, and now, and other organized crime, so, I I commend you for that because, you know, when I think about where

13:33 We would be today that didn't happen. I just wonder when would we be as far along if you haven't trained it in that way? Right from the beginning and obviously knowing you, well. I know you're very humble. And, of course, I know there are many leaders and Pioneers been part of this movement, but I, you know, I just I feel like the way in which you frame it right from the beginning, the way in which you you set it up as, you know, as this this incredibly Seminole report within that is huge. So I would love for you to talk about the report comes out. What happened a year of work travel all over.

14:19 Yes, so I'm finishing up the, the fellowship and as, you know, I was, I was working out of the offices at the president's interagency Council on a woman sharing, an office with you and social media. I had to call women around the world while I was working till this day. I don't know how you wrote that report in the same all the way you networked and work so hard and your amazing work ethic. And at the time, I was also planning my wedding. So our days were really long days, but it was nice, you know, when you're working on some, such a heart-felt heart-wrenching issue to like have that camaraderie and fellowship. I'm in your work, environment was really important.

15:18 So at the end of my, my journey, I had written, this intelligence monograph international trafficking in women and children to the United States. The Contemporary manifestation of slavery. In organized crime. I had finished in late 1999 and I just had a little bit of hood, but I was worried that my report might just, I don't know, it was a hard copy gather, some dust on somebody's you know, bookshelf. And so I actually went to Kinko's close when you actually go to Lake, you know, a copy shop and I bound copies of my research report and then pass them out at an interagency meeting the president and Regents Council. And when they were having some interagency meetings on the topic and looking at what each government agency could do. But I I just wanted to pass out that way.

16:18 Work because I wanted to maximize readership, the monks policymakers that I hoped you could make a difference and it was edible least yet. I'm sorry. I hadn't been released. So I had turned it in but it wasn't totally completely like, you know, finalized if you will. It would almost be as if you took your first very best draft and I had several, you know. Viewers read it. And but I knew time was important. And so there was a lot of it was a lot of NGO and faith-based groups and stakeholders that were lobbying for the passage of a law, the trafficking victims protection act in the US and so I just wanted to maximize leadership. So one of those copies that I passed out was pass.

17:18 To the New York Times to a New York Times Reporter and he ran a story in the New York Times. In April 2012, the sudden got a lot of attention and it was timely because as all of these just extraordinary sort of, you know, people that were trying to push for the passage of the trafficking victims protection act was just time late to have that report because, you know, it was sort of more support that indeed Trucking in persons was was occurring, and it was an issue and the law passed in October 2000. The law called for the establishment of the office to Monitor and combat trafficking in persons, as well as a cabinet-level task force on trafficking in persons. So early, 2001, our under secretary for Global Affairs at the time. It was Paula dobryansky.

18:18 Instead. I understand you authored this report. And would you please come over and help us establish the office to Monitor and combat trafficking in persons. Will you go ahead and head up the reports for this new office? And I did you did you? I didn't you said certainly sitting in those discussions with survivors and advocates in South Asia and around the world even said, you know, you really struck and you felt that I have to do something about this.

19:00 Was that surprising though to you, that they were now saying, we want you to come and help put this new office together. When did you expect that? That was going to happen?

19:13 I mean I stink in the in the mid to the late 90s. It seems like a bit of an uphill battle just because people weren't really focused on it, but I think I see issue began to get more attention.

19:33 And with the strong vocal voices of civil society, it's really I think when people began to fully grasp what it was, I think there was an excitement to to work on this issue. Like once we had the law. That was really I saying, just now, this is not to say there weren't there, weren't bumps in the road in the early days as we were standing up, you know, the office. I mean, when we opened our doors, at least we were six or seven individuals were probably 80, or 90, or present day. We didn't have fully functioning computers, or fax machines. We didn't even have. You know. There was a certain energy and excitement about

20:31 Creating something and building an office. It was a little tough though because you know, if you can consider here you are your crafting new office. Protocols, you're trying to increase the state Department's, bilateral, and multilateral engagement on the issue. You're trying to establish a cabinet-level taskforce and it's not always easy when you're pressing foreign governments as a state department to take action, you know, on various bilateral, strategic political economic goals, always easy to do. Now you have the, the trafficking in persons office saying,

21:15 You know, being very critical of some of these very same foreign governments on their efforts on human trafficking. So and you're in you're assessing ranking and placing foreign governments in tears in the annual trafficking in persons report, based on minimum standards as set forth in our law. So sometimes there was some stops and starts because you were creating an issue and an issue that, you know, how to huge transnational crime and human rights Dimension to it, that sometimes made some of the other policy work challenging if you will.

21:56 When that office not report, the first report was going to be coming out, and, of course, some people didn't like the idea of it would be sticks rather than just carrots. I could. Potentially, I believe that if it fell below, Kerr three, tier 3 walkthrough, I guess it was two or three right where it is.

22:28 Yeah, so I think it has, you know, I think it it has been incredibly successful because I think it also offers some great carrots of warding highlighting spotlighting smaller countries that maybe don't get a lot of attention from the United States government. But if they're really making progress on this issue, you know, there is that opportunity.

22:53 Yeah, it's it's so true. We were, you know, on the one hand, doing our very best to objectively and critically analyze what foreign governments we're doing on human trafficking, and in placing them in these in these two years. In the early days. The United States was not right itself. That wasn't until 2010, but we also did have international program and dollars. So the report was able to highlight some of the shortcomings and anti-trafficking efforts in respective countries, make some recommendations as to where we thought those shortcomings could be addressed and then offer some programming funds to assist those foreign governments, particularly those foreign governments where they might not have had the resources to address it.

23:52 I think for us part of what we were trying to do, as a young staff was also build the issue into other states into other bureaus. Resource plans and strategies, you know, we were reaching out to our embassies to say, you know, it's really important that you have a key of C on the human trafficking issue that you incorporated into your country team meetings. We were still at the intelligence community and said, he's not cover this. And we were also working with other US government agencies because we really wanted to have a sort of a whole-of-government effort. So when I look back, you know, I'm really proud of the chip office. I feel like we were a small But Mighty office and it was a lot of heart and drive and an overtime. We built the team, we improved Communications within the state department and externally

24:50 You know and I think our our understanding of the issue Brew, you know in the early days, we really were very focused. I think not that this wasn't a bad thing at all. But we were you looking more at and women and girls and traffic's for commercial sex. And then over the years, we understood that there's many forms of traffic and you know, sex trafficking forced labor debt bondage domestic servitude the unlawful recruitment or use of child soldiers. And I think we also broadened our understanding to realize that victims can be any race ethnicity, you know, gender identity, nationality or socioeconomic status and that no country was, was immune. It was happening here in the United States as well. You have about the challenges certainly do to start up and then stand up a new, a new office within the state department, obviously being taken seriously.

25:50 Across the state department. I think one of the things that you certainly had in your favor, is that it was an issue that was very prominent because you had so much bipartisan support. The fact that an office could be called HorrorLand ministrations setup. And another, you do at a law created, at the end of the Clinton Administration implemented, you know purrocious Liam rigorously within another having Advocates across all those lines that typically divided us namely politics, right? And and the fact that the Coalition of people who care about this issue for different reasons, of course, but you know, the people who care about this issue is so broad. It is done helped to propel an issue forward.

26:44 Wouldn't you agree?

26:46 100% And you know, currently I'm the acting senior coordinator for the public engagement team and I honestly feel like that is is one of the best parts of my job. The ability to reach out to stakeholders, whether they're and Gio or face base leaders or private sector, you know, company leaders or survivors of human trafficking or foreign government officials or you know, individuals working in multilateral organizations and for us all to sort of look to see what do we bring to the table? What is our comparative advantage? How can we advance the movement and you are so, right? How lucky, how lucky are we that this has been a bipartisan issue over two decades? I mean our

27:46 Anti trafficking law has been reauthorized five times. That's a lot different. You know, our, our United Nations are international instruments. Are, you know, the protocol to prevent surprise him. Punished trafficking in persons. It has a hundred and seventy eight parties to wow, when we started in 2000 on this issue and we, I mean, the collectively, you know, all of those that care United States have no state had a modern human trafficking law today. All 50 states have criminalized human trafficking, we have anti trafficking coordination teams across the United States. Every Regional and multilateral organization has a focus on human trafficking. There's 20 different, US government agencies or departments that

28:46 Part of our cabinet level task force on human trafficking, you know, it's just pretty, it's pretty extraordinary. I think. And this is not our selves on the back is just more of an observation of how this issue has come pretty far over the last two decades and a lot of that is due to the tremendous efforts among civil society. And the other thing I'll say is we really involved in our thinking in terms of seeking the wisdom, in the input of survivors and those with lived experiences. So critically important and you think about it that may not necessarily have been an approach of the US government, right? And it is so much working with the ngos working directly with their survivors hearing from them, that I think has made a huge difference. And certainly we can't ever expect to

29:46 Combat the issue without their voices at the table, speaking of which and I want to take a step back to an end. Then. I want to, I really want to come back to the partnership and the outrage, it's so fascinating, but

30:03 As I understand it, you actually have ancestral ties to abolitionist.

30:10 Which I just I mean when I found that out I was like what? And you know, I'm a big believer, Amy Andy, and his you know, I work with so many women leaders around the world countries in generations and cultures, but there are things that unite women.

30:27 In their leadership in particular and I shouldn't just say women. I think really great leaders. This is something that unites them is that they experienced something. They see something the way you did it and we all those early travels. I thought you were just riding in a year report and it becomes a lifelong Mission and we all know that life on missions. Are not easy, right? There are ups and downs and it takes a lifetime to, to really make a huge impact. And you, you really committed yourself to that. And I'm just a big believer that, you know, person's past the leadership has never really planned out perfectly. It begins with that conviction rate at like a motivation deep in your bones to do something. And so when I find out about your ancestral ties, I mean to me it's like, okay. We did you grow up with the story that you came from abolitionists. And so that was always in your head as your pass. Did you, did you find that out later?

31:25 Explain to me a little bit more about that connection cuz it is so powerful. It's like this is what you've been called to do in so many ways. Well, thank you for bringing that up. I I do, I have a Quaker ancestors who were anti-slavery Advocates and abolitionists my third great-grandfather Henry Willis. On my mom's side was a strong abolitionist. He lived in Battle Creek, Michigan and invited Sojourner Truth just meet there. I guess she ended up moving there permanently afterwards also had hidden rooms under the front long as a stop on the Underground Railroad and the abolitionists and suffragette Lucretia coffin. Mott, was married to my second cousin five times removed. So this is not by Blood but this is my relative had the the good sense to marry such a strong woman.

32:25 And she, she spoke at the anti-slavery convention in London in 1840. And then helped plan the first Women's Rights Convention in. Seneca Falls, New York. Also harbored runaway slaves in her home in Philadelphia. And what is pretty. I think, fascinating is, I didn't grow up with these stories. My husband is a big genealogy. He just loves it and he started doing the research and he sort of, slacked and brought it to my attention. And I just feel that, you know, and even though there are differences between Antebellum slavery and in human trafficking, you know, the former was solely based on the color of one's skin. And as I mentioned earlier, and trafficking victims can be any age or race or ethnicity or nationality. I do feel that somewhere somewhere in my heart and soul.

33:25 There was something that just was motivating me to be drawn to social justice work and wanting in, in whatever way possible to be. Sort of an ally and in contribute to the solution, do one little part. And so it was pretty extraordinary to learn that. I had these ties. It's so powerful.

33:52 I would imagine also that in hearing, that understanding that, I don't know how long ago that was that you learn this. Obviously, in the time since you've been married, but you're getting married around the same time, that that I receive wrote that report and your husband is, of course, incredibly supportive of you doing this work. That quite frankly, people can't see you right now, but you are a small woman. A very petite woman doing this, very dangerous work and I would imagine you in a meeting with no traffic. So thinking, oh my gosh, I hope Dan is okay. A little bit about some of the things that some of the most, you know, rewarding times that you've had working on these issues. Yeah. I love that question because

34:52 You know at the end of the day, it's such a heart issue. And I remember, just when I was doing my research or when I was working on their porch. Sometimes closing my door and just trying to let you know, just crying so much because it was incredulous to me that human beings could do this to one another. But really, when I think of the work that I got to do with all these incredible partners and allies and anti trafficking Heroes and survivors. I mean, every year in our annual tracking persons report, we feature Brave individuals who are at Great risk to themselves are out there combating human trafficking and raising awareness and

35:50 You know, providing services for victims and preventing the crime and Prosecuting, the traffickers. And we also work so closely with survivors and those with lived experiences and they're so motivational. And now I'm really proud that there's an advisory Council on human trafficking, where we actually have Survivor leaders who are appointed by the president for two-year terms and they make recommendations on federal anti-trafficking policies, including to our cabin. And we have a human trafficking expert, consultant Network, and they provide input on the state Department's policies and strategies and, and products that we put forward on the issues. So, you know, oh my goodness between the anti-trafficking heroes and the survivors, persuade, talk about inspiration. It just really makes me want to keep going. And and you can just continue with this were

36:49 So powerful.

36:52 So powerful and I would imagine, you know, in all the difficult times, that is certainly, what keeps you going? Because it is hard. You know, there is, there is that, if I can. If I can use that word of hearing these stories over and over and over again about the worst of humanity, but I think as you just described the same, that's really beautiful about the work that you do in and working with survivors is to eat. Also, get to see the best of humanity. Best of people who they were trafficked themselves and were able to escape, but then they come back and they, they are able to help not only rescue, but rehabilitate reintegrate into society.

37:40 As we look ahead.

37:42 What do you think is critical that happened to make progress? And do you think we're making progress? Cuz what we what we certainly know is that the traffickers are highly motivated highly skilled highly resource highly Network, you know, they adapt, you know, we come up with something they exact right?

38:03 What do you what do you think is the answer to get ahead if you will but I do believe strongly in building coalitions for the inside. And outside the government. You leverage resources, you leverage expertise like we're stronger. When we're building bridges with other stakeholders and somebody stakeholders, you know, might be working on related issues, you know, dancing the rule of law or racial Equity, or further and human rights or you know, combating crime. I think it's critical to keep the issue front-and-center but also integrated and institutionalized and two other policies and programs. So it's not sort of a a one-off issue. I think it's critical to to share promising practices and Lessons Learned. Not only across the government and within the public for a butt with other foreign governments.

39:03 I think that we have to better leverage technology and Innovation and technological technological advancements. There's some really cool things going on right now with the use of artificial intelligence to detect miners being sold for sex online, where the use of blockchain to put worker contracts on a secure system. So they can't be changed. We're working with the financial Community to shore up the financial system. So they're not used to launder the proceeds from Human Trafficking. We're working with companies so that they can better prevent forced labor in their Global Supply Chains. It's really not only I talked about a whole-of-government effort but it also takes heard of a whole of society. After fundamentally. I think make an impact on a great job of engaging the sort of you know,

40:03 Soft power of culture and art even just 10 years ago. There were documentaries about the horrors of human trafficking but there weren't mainstream films the way there are today, you know, there was certainly like kidnapping and things like that. But I mean getting it out to a much larger population of people so that they can understand him. And people who are not part of the government's civil society and you don't read the New York Times cover to cover every day, but are horrified and they want to do something about it. It's so true. And I really think as awareness is raised. Like, I'm always so touched at those that reach out to us and say, like, okay. I rinsed my hand choose me. What can I do? How can I help out and that and that sort of gives me a lot of a lot of help with

41:03 The future, particularly also with this Young Generation too late there. So creative and they know how to use social media to affect change and dancing issue. And so true. What it is going to take a minute, isn't the things we've tried to date. Although, you know, maybe the things that are working with you shipping away that it is the sort of how the Box innovative ideas that, you know, people aren't sitting around the decision-making tables. Today are going to bring to us right with her, be young people or those communities that haven't yet, been engaged, but I know you've done a phenomenal job in reaching out to the private sector, reaching out to Silicon Valley, excetera reaching out, to artist communities face base communities. Need you really talk about that. I have one last question for you. And I think it it touches on what you just said, about young people.

42:03 And, you know, I I look at your career and not dissimilar to my career. We found an issue, we cared about at Young ages and we have followed that thread because we have wanted to see real sustainable change, but that is not the norm. And I am sure you get the same question all the time that I get. Gosh. You've been doing this for more than two decades, isn't it time to do something else? And yeah, my answer is always, hey, if I'm still challenged passionate and curious on a daily basis. I'm going to keep doing it. And if I'm still the right leader for the organization, I'm going to keep doing it. And I do have a vision of what I want to achieve right eye. I feel like there is that

42:51 You know, that. That's where the true north that I believe, I am trying to get the organization to do. You feel the same way and that's the first part of the question. Do you feel the same way as like, okay once I get here I can, you know, I can retire once I get get the issue to hear and then the other piece, Amy is advice for you because I think that's so often there, right? Of like 2 years in this job, one year at you and move on to the next Road and sticking with an issue. The way you have.

43:28 I would say as long as I feel like I'm still able to make a contribution and I'm still learning and growing. I want to stay with this issue because

43:42 Human trafficking has not been eradicated. And so I want to continue to chip away at it and work with stakeholders. And I am so excited about the Next Generation and, and their willingness to be Innovative and creative and make an impact. And and just think outside of the box, and I will sort of end on. Cuz I know our time, I use pretty sure. You know, I love what you always say, at least, you know, I've heard you say to the young people out there. Starts small from wherever you are wherever you sit or stand, like, don't wait for your invitation to lead or consider this. Your invitation, to lead you to find an issue or cause that moves you and just, you know, absorb as much information as you can become an expert. Make yourself indispensable. You do cultivate partners and allies, and you're going to at the end of the day be successful in.

44:42 Making an impact and it doesn't have to be the human trafficking issue. I hope it is. But if it's not just pick another, another call is that you care deeply about

44:53 Amy. This is been an incredible pleasure, really. An honor to have this opportunity to just about

45:07 The beginnings, the journey and and I think the big thing for me that has come through in this conversation is that you're on the path that you were supposed to be on and the world is better for it. So, thank you. I love you, and I love all that you're doing to make the logs better for winning and in girls around the world. So, thank you.