Andrew Walker and Jennifer Walker

[00:04] ANDREW WALKER: Hi, my name is Andrew Walker. I am, let's say, nearly 50. Today is April 29, 2023, and we are in Logan, Utah. My interview partner is Jennifer Day Walker, and she is my partner. I am my spouse.

[00:28] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: And my name is Jennifer Day Walker, and I am 50 years old. Today's date is April 29, 2013. Nope. 2023, and we are in Logan, Utah. I am interviewing with Andrew Walker, who is my partner and spouse.

[00:52] ANDREW WALKER: Okay, so, Jen, I would love to hear about the time that we met.

[01:01] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Yeah, it was a good time.

[01:05] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah. So, like, try to frame this experience for us. Where are we right now?

[01:11] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Well, it was. I keep trying to think of how many years ago it was, and I get tripped up because we've been married. We got married in 1995, but we met 94.

[01:24] ANDREW WALKER: No, 93. All of 93.

[01:27] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Yeah. So it's been 30 years, which I think is crazy.

[01:32] ANDREW WALKER: That is a little bananas.

[01:34] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: It just feels like it just happened. So we were at Washington State University in Pullman, Washington.

[01:39] ANDREW WALKER: Go, Cougs.

[01:40] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Yes. I was a senior in English.

[01:47] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah.

[01:48] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Literature.

[01:50] ANDREW WALKER: What did your academic journey look like at that point? Like, how many majors had you had?

[01:56] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: That was my 7th turn. But they all led back to English. I mean, I was constantly, you know, choosing these offshoots of English and just ended with English because I just needed to get done. And that last year, I had a lot of literature classes, which is why we had two classes together. So I had one with you in the fall and one in the spring. And I know we met in the fall. Like, I know that. And I know it was Professor Berbeck's class.

[02:30] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah, Joan Berbeck.

[02:32] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: And we had this kind of terrorist classroom where there were levels.

[02:40] ANDREW WALKER: Oh, yeah. It was like step farming for people.

[02:44] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Yes. And I always sat in the back because I often came in with some lunch. The class was right about one, probably. And I often would have just had lunch with my friends that were also orientation counselors. And especially on Thursdays, we always had lunch at the Coug. So I would take my lunch to go see my friends and then come to class and walk up that terrace thing to the very back where I could try to, like, eat without making a big scene. And I think I was always late.

[03:21] ANDREW WALKER: You were always late, but you always had a smile on your face, and you had this air of confidence about you. You said good things in class, like you're somebody who clearly did the readings. Yeah. You were just. And I think the two words that struck me first were natural beauty. Like, you just was, like, effortless. I'm just gonna breeze into this class. I'm, like, totally attracted to you. You have no idea who I am.

[03:57] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: I had no idea who you were. And here's why I know that. Because I don't remember you.

[04:03] ANDREW WALKER: That's right. For years, you would say we met the next spring.

[04:08] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: I know, and I feel like we have to mutually remember the meeting to call it our first meeting, but it's not true. So I remember that we were doing something like she said, get in a group, and you and your friend came.

[04:29] ANDREW WALKER: To the back, mostly me. Yeah.

[04:32] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: You were like, drug him back there. Which I didn't know at the time.

[04:34] ANDREW WALKER: Drug him back there? Yeah. Brian Capps.

[04:37] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: And I just remember him.

[04:39] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah.

[04:40] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: I don't even remember you.

[04:42] ANDREW WALKER: That is very true.

[04:43] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: And I honestly. I can't even picture him right now. And I don't remember thinking he was naturally attractive or anything. I just. I feel really badly saying this. I just do not have a recollection of you.

[04:56] ANDREW WALKER: It's all good. He's very attractive, I would say.

[04:59] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Really?

[05:00] ANDREW WALKER: Oh, yeah.

[05:00] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Do you have a crush on him?

[05:02] ANDREW WALKER: Oh, totally.

[05:04] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: You had a crush on prank caps?

[05:06] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah. Okay, so. But that's not what we're talking about today.

[05:11] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: We're not?

[05:14] ANDREW WALKER: So, yeah, we met, although it was a unidirectional meet that fall semester. And the next spring we had. Was it 17th century literature?

[05:30] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: I think it was 16th century.

[05:32] ANDREW WALKER: 16Th century.

[05:33] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: It was written in the 17 hundreds, right?

[05:35] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah.

[05:37] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Either way, it was boring.

[05:39] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah. What kind of literature is covered in that class?

[05:42] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Well, it would be like Swift.

[05:46] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah. Johnson Gulliver's travels.

[05:49] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Yes.

[05:50] ANDREW WALKER: So the literature was like travelogues.

[05:55] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: A lot of rhyming love. Sonnet, not sonnets. I don't know what they were.

[06:00] ANDREW WALKER: Deep cut political commentary that you had to know. Like, very topical.

[06:06] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: I thought it was boring. So it was January, and again, a terrorist seating class. You walk in and there's steps up.

[06:16] ANDREW WALKER: Is that true? I don't remember that.

[06:18] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Totally true, because it was constant. They were linoleum. And these tack strips went over those steps.

[06:25] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah.

[06:25] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: I was always thinking, I'm gonna trip.

[06:27] ANDREW WALKER: I remember these rigid chair desk combos.

[06:31] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Yeah. They were wooden.

[06:32] ANDREW WALKER: You couldn't tell if it was, like, dining room furniture or classroom furniture.

[06:37] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: So you and I sat there with this woman on the first day. I came into class first, and then you came in and sat next to me. And then this woman came in late and sat next to you.

[06:46] ANDREW WALKER: Right.

[06:46] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: The teacher has to fill out this seating chart, which is important for.

[06:52] ANDREW WALKER: So embarrassing.

[06:54] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: It'll be good in a second. So I.

[06:59] ANDREW WALKER: Well, when did he. So she sat next to us on.

[07:02] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: The very first day, and we filled out the seating chart. Like, this is where you're gonna sit.

[07:06] ANDREW WALKER: No, we did not fill out the seating chart that day. We filled out the seating chart, like, the next class period.

[07:13] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Sure. And put in a different.

[07:15] ANDREW WALKER: Because our friend was not there.

[07:17] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: You filled it in for her?

[07:19] ANDREW WALKER: I did.

[07:20] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: And what name did you use?

[07:22] ANDREW WALKER: I used Winona Ryder.

[07:24] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Yeah. And so he would randomly call on people according to the seating chart.

[07:30] ANDREW WALKER: And the very first name he called Winona Ryder.

[07:34] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Winona Ryder is Winona Ryder known a writer.

[07:38] ANDREW WALKER: So she happened to be there. So this is, like, three class periods in, right? So first she's there, then she's not. We fill out the seating chart. And third try, she happens to be there with a made up name. And, oh, my gosh, I remember when he called on her. I had this feeling, actually, like, when he pulled up the seating chart, I'm like, he's gonna call Winona. He's gonna go on our turn.

[08:05] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Well, he sure did.

[08:06] ANDREW WALKER: He sure did.

[08:10] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: We're all like, pee hee. And after class, this woman who I'd had in other classes was behind us. She's like, I cannot believe you guys did that.

[08:25] ANDREW WALKER: Well, it was extremely immature.

[08:27] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: It was so immature and funny.

[08:30] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah. At the same time and out of character. We are so mature.

[08:36] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: I think one of the things that I liked about you right away is that you just felt like home. Like, you were so comfortable and so easy to talk to and also not my type. Like, I just was like, oh, he's so nice. And I think it was that first week you asked me out, or you asked for my number or something.

[08:58] ANDREW WALKER: Maybe I'd been thinking about asking you out for over a semester.

[09:03] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: You had?

[09:04] ANDREW WALKER: Oh, yeah.

[09:06] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: I didn't know that. Yeah, we lived in dorms that were like, mine kind of overlooked. Yours?

[09:13] ANDREW WALKER: Yes.

[09:14] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Mine was up the hill a bit from yours. Yeah, I was in Rogers. You were in Stevenson North.

[09:19] ANDREW WALKER: Stevenson east.

[09:20] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: You were in Stevenson east. That makes sense.

[09:22] ANDREW WALKER: Mm hmm.

[09:23] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Okay. So all I know is that the day you asked me out, I already honestly legit had plans with my friends.

[09:33] ANDREW WALKER: Oh, yeah.

[09:34] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: And I said, oh, I actually have plans for this for Friday, but I'd love to do something another time. And you took that as I'm, like, turning you down.

[09:47] ANDREW WALKER: Oh, sure. Like, I thought you were like, I am planning on having a flat tire tonight.

[09:52] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: I. No, no. What you didn't know about me is that I don't like. Well, no, I've told lies like that. Thought I wasn't gonna just. If I was gonna blow you off, I would have just said, no, thanks, flat out.

[10:08] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah.

[10:09] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: And I was thinking, honestly, I would love to do something another time and please call me. And then you didn't call me.

[10:16] ANDREW WALKER: Really?

[10:17] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Yeah.

[10:17] ANDREW WALKER: I don't remember nothing.

[10:18] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: So I get to class, I'm like, you never called me. And you were like, oh, I said you were turning me down. Yeah. What I thought was really curious about you was that you were. It was freeze. It was January, and you were wearing soccer shorts.

[10:39] ANDREW WALKER: Oh, yeah.

[10:40] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Samba shoes. And, like, cycled through a couple of sweatshirts. You had, like, two or three colors of the same shirt.

[10:46] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah.

[10:48] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Sometimes you wear a green jacket.

[10:51] ANDREW WALKER: A green jacket.

[10:53] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Oh, was it like a winter coat?

[10:54] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah, it was, like, longer.

[10:56] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Yeah.

[10:57] ANDREW WALKER: With lots of pockets, but only if shortsight. Like.

[11:05] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: What I didn't understand is the shorts and the coat. I was like, if you are wearing shorts and, like, a parka.

[11:13] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah.

[11:14] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: What are you. What's going on down there? Like, are you.

[11:17] ANDREW WALKER: I would always get to class and be hot. I had a super fast metabolism. Like, if I dressed appropriately for the outside, I would just be steaming in the classroom.

[11:29] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: I found out later you had. That was your whole wardrobe.

[11:31] ANDREW WALKER: Oh, yeah.

[11:32] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: It wasn't even like you were saving the jeans. You had a pair of jeans you wore on our first date, and then I don't think you had anything else.

[11:39] ANDREW WALKER: A white button shirt and then, like, khaki shorts. Yeah.

[11:45] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: That were kind of like linen, but I was like, what is that? But mostly soccer shorts and always the soccer shoes. I found out later it's because you played ultimate Frisbee.

[11:54] ANDREW WALKER: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[11:57] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Yeah. When we were. I remember one of those first days leaving class and walking down the hill, and I was asking you about your family, and, like, halfway down the hill, you said, yeah, my dad died in a plane crash when I was four. And I actually stopped. It stopped me in my tracks. Like, what? It just sounded so I was like, this guy has been through some stuff, and you were being really vulnerable, and I had just barely met you. I don't think we'd even had our first date yet. It's like, so where are you from? Tell me about your. You know. We were just talking about ourselves, basically, in the, like, phase. Two questions when you get to know somebody, and it was like, wow, that is a big thing to share, really, right off. And I actually was really attracted to that because it was just safe to tell you a lot of things really early and I felt like you were telling me things really early, like you weren't hiding stuff.

[13:10] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah.

[13:10] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Does that make sense?

[13:11] ANDREW WALKER: It does make sense, and it just.

[13:14] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: I don't know. So, like, physically, I thought you weren't my type. And then you were super my type in every other way. And you were adorable. And I just remember thinking how scary that was that you were so likable, like, how much I liked you so quickly scared the shit out of me.

[13:40] ANDREW WALKER: Why? Was that scary for you?

[13:42] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Yes. I had dated some real assholes. Like, I had really dated some people who I. So my first boyfriend was gay and what wasn't out to me in high school. And so we went through a couple of years together of, you know, going to dances and hanging out all the time, but he literally never touched me.

[14:05] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah.

[14:06] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: And I thought, well, I must not be attractive. So I got to college, and, like, the first day I was there, I met this jerk who lived in the same dorm, and he was a total womanizing creeper and turned out to be really abusive. And that was a very difficult time for me. And then when I broke up with him, I started dating a guy who I thought was my type. And the way we broke up is that he said, I can't date you anymore. I'm a bigot because I can't date a Mormon. I was like, oh, so you can be, like, a total jerk, Christian, whatever you say you are. After that, I decided I have to date a Mormon because I can't keep dating these guys that don't hold, like, the same kind of core beliefs that I do. It was really important to me that I started dating people that I could actually marry, and I knew I wanted to get married in a Mormon temple. And it was really ironic having these words come out of my mouth right now. Yeah, because we don't do that.

[15:34] ANDREW WALKER: No.

[15:35] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Like, the whole reason you and I struggled for that first part of our relationship was religious differences, and now neither of us are participating or practice mormon things.

[15:52] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah.

[15:53] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: It's such a really, really interesting turn of events.

[15:57] ANDREW WALKER: It is an interesting space to be.

[15:59] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: In when I think about that time. So for you was the. So I super liked you right away, and it scared me. And you apparently liked me before I knew who you were. Yeah, that was from a distance. Like, your attraction to me, I think, was physical first, and my attraction to you was emotional first. And so for you, when did it become emotional or intellectual or.

[16:31] ANDREW WALKER: Oh, I think pretty quickly after getting to know you, spending all those nights watching, let's see, the Thursday tv was must see tv. Seinfeld. Yes. So we were indoorsy from the beginning.

[16:47] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: I know we would watch everything on NBC that started with. I don't think Seinfeld was first.

[16:55] ANDREW WALKER: No. Mad about you was in there somewhere. Seinfeld was in there somewhere.

[16:59] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: It ended with er.

[17:01] ANDREW WALKER: Oh, er, yeah, it was an ER nut. Yeah.

[17:07] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: I can't remember what was first. It doesn't matter. I think it was like Caroline in the city or something.

[17:12] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah.

[17:13] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Something unimportant.

[17:15] ANDREW WALKER: I remember being really attracted to you because your faith was important to you. And it's something that I hadn't been practicing one way or another since I was going to the Methodist church as a, as a kid. And I remember being super impressed with how bright you were and had really good insights. And I liked that you wanted to go to grad school. So back then, you were thinking about, like, maybe what, student affairs in higher education.

[17:52] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: I think one of the reasons I thought this is the worst timing possible is that I had already applied to grad schools back east, and I was interviewing for them right when we met. In fact, I had to make a decision about which one to go to. Probably two months into our meeting.

[18:11] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah.

[18:11] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: And I had this terrible, like, it just felt like tragedy because I knew how much I liked you, and I knew that because of our religious differences, it may not work out. And I had to make decisions about my future for myself, just like you needed to for yourself. You're a year younger than me, and you had another year at WSU And I was like, how is this gonna work on paper? It just didn't make any sense. And so I tried to not love you, and I tried. I tried to break up with you once, and I think it lasted, like, a day.

[18:54] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah, that was like, two weeks into our relationship.

[18:57] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: You broke up with me for these reasons.

[18:59] ANDREW WALKER: I don't know if you could even call it a relationship.

[19:00] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: No, I was like, I can't do this. Like, I'm going away. You have it. You're here. And I like you so much that if we get deeper into this, this is like trouble. You just were trouble. So I tried to call it off, but then I think I called you, like, a day later.

[19:25] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah, it was like a day and a half later.

[19:27] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: I'm like, hey, you want to come over and watch musty tv or whatever it was? Do you remember our first date?

[19:36] ANDREW WALKER: Yes. So I asked you out to see a free movie at the coug.

[19:42] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Yeah.

[19:43] ANDREW WALKER: It was gas, food, lodging, which is a really terrible movie.

[19:47] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: It's really dumb, very low budget. Here's one thing I loved about you. Like, on that date, you did not pretend to be something you weren't. We went to Selah's, and we walked there because you didn't have a car, and it was really close to our dorms, but you were. You knew exactly how much money you had to pay for the semester. And, you know, it didn't involve a lot of extra playing around money. And so you chose the free movie and, like, sellas, which was.

[20:24] ANDREW WALKER: It's like a five dollar dinner, paper.

[20:26] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Plate, spaghetti and calzones. Delicious. But you never, like, you didn't have any pretense. There wasn't any pretending or trying to be something you weren't. And you were really frugal and not embarrassed by it. And I just. I mean, it was so different from anyone that I had dated, whether they had money or not. The way they talked about it, the way they presented themselves was so genuine. Like, you were so genuine. And I'd never seen that before.

[21:05] ANDREW WALKER: Well, I think most of my life, like, a consistent theme has been not occurring to me. How people would see me. Like, I'm just gonna be who I am.

[21:17] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Like, what could. There's only good things that can come out of that, right? Especially when you're dating. I mean, I knew exactly what I was getting in for. What I was getting into, I was in for. You do not have the channel that cheats or lies or is, like, deceptive. I knew that. Like, I could have guessed that in our first month together because you were so genuine, I knew I could trust you immediately. And coming out of the relationships that I had been in, the abusive ones that were so bad to be able to trust and not have a lot of history. I mean, I know people that need years and years of proof that you're not gonna cheat on me. I didn't need that with you. You didn't. You didn't ask for, like. I don't know. I don't know what I'm trying to say. You did nothing.

[22:30] ANDREW WALKER: Like, I didn't make demands.

[22:33] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Yeah, you didn't. You just never pushed me into a really uncomfortable space with needing to trust you. There hasn't been a day since I've known you that I don't trust you.

[22:49] ANDREW WALKER: That means a lot to me.

[22:53] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: I know how rare it is in my line of work as a therapist.

[22:58] ANDREW WALKER: You absolutely would know about that.

[23:00] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: I can't believe how difficult people have it just trying to trust each other. And I know we've had our challenges, and there were times when I didn't know if I would find you in all of our struggle and pain. Like, we've really had some challenges that I never anticipated.

[23:22] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah.

[23:24] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: And the whole time you've been a solid rock. You've always been home. And that you can't. It's so unusual. And what we have, I think, is so rare.

[23:42] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah, I think that's true. I feel so lucky to be married to you. So lucky.

[23:52] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: I feel the same way. I think about those two kids that didn't know if they were going to make it and if it was going to be this tragedy where he's not a Mormon and I can't marry him. And it turned out that the irony of it, I guess, is that because we found each other, because we're together, we've been able to get through things. Like not being Mormon. Yeah, I don't think I could do that without you.

[24:22] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah.

[24:23] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: And back then I thought I could only do it if you were a Mormon. It's just ironic and just. I don't know. It's hard to put in words often how special you are to me and how I feel about you. I know that people can see it. I think there have been times when we actually made people sick and mad. Cause we have each other and we're strong and I wouldn't trade it for anything. No amount of anything. I would go anywhere with you. I would do anything with you.

[25:03] ANDREW WALKER: I feel like you've already gone everywhere with me. I feel like I'm the one dragging us around all the time because of your dumb job. My dumb job?

[25:11] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Your dumb job.

[25:14] ANDREW WALKER: So my dumb job as a university.

[25:16] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Professor, your dumb job has provided us with a ton of stability and has been a source of how we've been. Okay. And I can't imagine you doing anything else when you figured this field out. Instructional technology and learning science is so unusual. And when I first met you, you wanted to be an english professor. We actually both did, which is a funny tangent to the story. Neither of us ended up doing that. But when you found this field and it was like this click. There was no question that this is your jam. And I knew it would require us to move to some places, like Logan, Utah, because there aren't very many of these programs.

[26:08] ANDREW WALKER: That's true.

[26:08] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: The United States or in the world.

[26:12] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah.

[26:13] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: But as hard as it's been to move and to change, I have no regrets. I just. I really. I've never thought. I'm just not gonna go with him any more places. I'm not doing it.

[26:33] ANDREW WALKER: I've had questions, if not regrets. I mean, you were the first one of us to finish a master's degree, and I know you were wondering about staying home or being a mom. And, yeah, I've often wondered, what if Jen went on to get a PhD or do other things first?

[26:57] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: I thought about that, too. I mean, I got my.

[27:00] ANDREW WALKER: Or you wanted to be a therapist, like, right away. I remember you finished your master's degree and did your thesis. You're like, I want to train to be a therapist. Which did not happen for another almost 20 years.

[27:11] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: I know. I have thought about that, and I really. When I remember why, I chose to stay home with our two kids, they're intense kids that needed stuff that neither of us could have anticipated. Yeah, they brought unique challenges. And I knew when Rachel was born and I was in the middle of my first masters, I could not. Like, when I was at school, I was thinking about her, and when I was with her, I was thinking about school, and I thought I could be the kind of person that just did it all at the same time. And I know now that I am the kind of person that really can't do it all at the same time. I don't regret that. Like, I feel like I got it all. I just didn't do it all at once. And that is okay. I think there are people that can do that, and that's great. I don't regret that. My full time job was those kids, especially knowing that Sam has autism and Rachel has that much anxiety.

[28:22] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah. No, they needed that.

[28:25] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Yeah. It was hard. It was hard on all of us. I think at different times, it was hard on our relationship.

[28:32] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah.

[28:33] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: A lot of our conversations in those early years were pretty intellectual. We connected on lots of things. Our friends would tease us because we couldn't stop talking.

[28:43] ANDREW WALKER: Oh, yeah. Well, and when we. You first went off to grad school in Pennsylvania, we wrote binders full of letters to each other.

[28:53] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: We did pre the Internet.

[28:56] ANDREW WALKER: Yep.

[28:57] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: And then we emailed, but then also, we talked so much, we had to take out a loan to pay off the phone bill. Do you remember? Ten cents a minute.

[29:05] ANDREW WALKER: I do remember that.

[29:07] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: I was not calling.

[29:09] ANDREW WALKER: I remember me calling you on the 1800 line. Oh. For my job at your grad assistant.

[29:15] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Oh, my gosh. I got in so much trouble. Actually, when I left there, he sent me the bill. Do you remember that?

[29:20] ANDREW WALKER: I do remember that.

[29:22] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: I was like, you fucker. Yeah, he was whatever. And honestly, I should have paid the bill, and I did. That was not, like, out of the question.

[29:42] ANDREW WALKER: So, as a therapist, you have a thing called a doorknob confession, where people bring up big topics at the end. Yeah, I'm gonna do something really unfair. So you have touched on leaving the worm in faith a couple times, and I would love to hear more about that. What that's been like, why it started.

[30:02] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Man, that is. Talk about doorknob confession. I feel like this could have been its own thing. In a couple minutes, I will just say I've always been super liberal, and I was raised by liberal parents.

[30:19] ANDREW WALKER: That is true.

[30:20] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: And one of the things that I think you liked about my family was that we had this interesting combo of religious practice and social liberalism, and social justice issues were always really championed. So my parents were converts to the Mormon church, and I was raised with my four siblings in this really interesting combo that I have spoken of and really wanted to do the same with my own kids. And that was important to me, that I honor my parents that way and teach my kids to be super open minded and have a partner in that. And when we went through that kind of. Well, I think we have to say, too, that you joined the Mormon church about a year after we met.

[31:32] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah.

[31:33] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: And then we got married a year after that.

[31:35] ANDREW WALKER: Just like you wanted. In the temple.

[31:37] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: In the temple. The thing I said was so important.

[31:39] ANDREW WALKER: And I should say, just like we wanted. It was important to me, too.

[31:43] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Yeah. I think what I never would have anticipated is that both of my parents have died in the past six years, and my dad died in Romania, and they were serving a mission for the church. And it was devastating for our whole family. And things started to feel heavy and difficult at that time. And then the year after that, our son Sam came out to us as gay. And I had to face for myself the reality that I was living a religion and, like, adhering to and practicing a religion that diametrically opposes who my son is. And I felt like I had to choose between my religion and my kid. And it has been a five year undoing.

[32:40] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah.

[32:41] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Where I firmly now am happy to say out loud, I'm standing with my kid. I won't pick. No, I will not pick.

[32:54] ANDREW WALKER: There's an interesting conflict in it because I feel like we're taught in this faith to love everybody for who they are and that God made everybody who they are and made them just the way they need it to be. And we've had important, deeply personal revelations that Sam is supposed to be autistic, and Sam is supposed to be gay, and he's not gonna change. It's who and the way he is supposed to be.

[33:22] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Yeah. I have never felt like Sam was a mistake or, like a printing error or something. Some, you know, anomaly where he needs to change who he is in order to be with God. Yeah, that absolutely has not ever sat with me. How about for you? Like, tell me how, in your opinion, that realization changed you.

[33:53] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah, I think for me, there was an early awareness. Like, this is there are some things I'm not in love with. And it actually harkens back to when we first met. I remember converting to this faith and saying, this is so patriarchal. Like, it does not feel right. But I had some answers to prayer at the time that just wait. There's some things that you'll find out. And I actually did. There's some interesting. Maybe we don't have time to get into it, but some interesting nuances where I'm like, okay, the long term plan is clearly different than the version of the faith that we're living now, but when it comes to the LGBTQ community, it's just not there. And I feel like every step forward comes with two steps backward, and that part is hard. I think there was a period of time, and I think I wanted to hold on longer than you did of like, let's be in this space. Let's be the person in Sunday school who raises their hand and says, you know, I appreciate you quoting those scriptures, but you need to know these are real human beings who have real experiences, and there's some things you should know.

[35:21] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: I always appreciated that you were that guy. Like, you're so great about being inclusive and not being afraid to say, you in the back, shut up. In a really nice way. I get so emotionally charged that I'd be like, I would just leave crying and unable to be rational in that moment. And your ration would come out in this really beautiful way almost all the weekly. And I just got to where I couldn't hold space like that and take care of what I needed. At the same time, like, going to make it a better place for others is good on one level. When you're talking about your deep faith and why you show up personally and the relationship you have with Jesus, calling people out on their discriminatory remarks, they just didn't cut it for me anymore.

[36:23] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah. I think the pivot for me was we had a picture of all four of us around the temple that was so critical, right?

[36:37] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Yeah.

[36:38] ANDREW WALKER: And it was the Logan temple that was close to us, not the Portland temple that we got married at. But, like, deeply impactful in our lives. We were engaged for a year so that we could be married in the temple. And the whole idea of framing those photos in the temple is, this is our eternal family, and this is where we're going to be. And I still believe that's going to be true. The hard part was, here's a faith saying, like, no. Like, this is not where your son belongs. He does not belong in this space. And I remember you saying, like, for several weeks, like, this has got to be hard on Sam to come downstairs and see this every day. And then you said, actually, it's hard on me to come downstairs and see this. And I think that's when I really wanted to think deeply about how we're spending our time and our energy, and whether it's a space where we're growing or a space that's tearing us down.

[37:54] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: One of the most poignant moments during that time, for me, is when you got out your drill and you took the temple down and moved this pictures so that we're all literally closer together. I never thought that removing the temple would actually be what brought us together and signified in this really clear, symbolic way that this isn't negotiable. We're a family. Nothing's getting in the way of that. And you're loved no matter who you are. And you're loved because of who you are. And I just am grateful for the journey we've been on. Who knew that 30 years ago, these two kids that met in english class would be able to have built this foundation with each other, to create this life together? That's been really beautiful.

[38:55] ANDREW WALKER: It has been beautiful.

[38:56] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: I'm so grateful.

[38:58] ANDREW WALKER: I am very grateful.

[38:59] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: I love you.

[39:00] ANDREW WALKER: I love you, too. Love everything about you.

[39:06] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: Same. I love everything about you. Except your farts. They're still not great.

[39:14] ANDREW WALKER: Yeah, they're not fantastic. Not nearly as bad as Juno's.

[39:24] JENNIFER DAY WALKER: She can't help it. It's what we feed her. You can help it. It's your fault.