Anna Seaver and Beth Gafur

00:01 Hi, I'm Jessica for I am 56 years old. Today is January 25th, 2020. We are in Portland, Oregon and I am with my coworker Anna.

00:13 Thank you, babe. And my name is Anna Seaver and I am 67 years old. Today is January 25th, and we are in Portland, Oregon and I am with my coworker Beth.

00:29 Santillana here. We are. Thank you very much for doing this and you too. I appreciate this. So we have worked together for a long time. I've been here for six and a half years give or take and I think I'm pretty darn sure you were here before me. I've been here for almost 20 years. That's a little bit before me. Okay. Yeah. So here we are in hospice. Right? So I've always been curious about what brought people into hospice. So what's your journey when I had a son who died when he was really young and I had originally had decided that I should go back to school and become a social worker that was before hospice was ever even thought of and so I thought there needed to be a lays on person between families with terminally ill children and doctors somebody

01:29 To help with communication and that couldn't think of solutely and so I was that's actually what I was planning on doing was going to school to become a social worker and then somewhere along the line to change to being a nurse and so that's what I've been doing for the last 20 some odd years of my life is being a nurse, but you haven't been a hospice nurse for 20 some years. I started out working at the hospital because I knew that I needed to get a good base before I went to hospice. And so I worked on the renal diabetic unit for a couple years and then I transferred into and did some extra training for hot for the Intensive Care Unit. So I did med-surg intensive care float for a couple years and then I a new hospice was always my goal. I was not going to be a hospital nurse, but I needed to get some background before I went to become a hospice nurse. So it was

02:29 Experience of losing your son that Drew you write hospice has he been involved in the hospice program because it was back in 1981. Okay, and so hospice wasn't it was barely even thought of it that time and certainly nothing for children. I mean hospice has always been for adults and that's why my feeling was that there needed to be some lays on person to help families transition into into, you know, a hospice typesetting. He died at home. We had nothing and we had no support and so but we opted to bring him home his last few days of his life and you know, we were there by herself and that's not the way it should be there. Really should. That's why hospice is such a great program because we do support families through that process.

03:31 I know that just what what your experience was. It just kind of takes my breath away because of the work that we do on hospice and just knowing all of the services that we provide the medication the nursing visits. The chaplains is social workers. I can't imagine going through the absolute.

03:54 Overwhelming grief of losing your own child and having none of those resources to help back you I can't imagine what that would have felt. Like I think the biggest thing was when he went to the hospital the last time which unfortunately was on my birthday, but he went to the hospital and they they they said at that time that there was nothing else they could do for him and fortunately we were very fortunate to have a nurse tell us you don't have to stay here.

04:28 And so even though it was very painful to move him cuz he had a brain tumor and that was before they could cross the blood-brain barrier into the brain. He was it was really uncomfortable to move him, but we were able I was able to cradle him enough to get him home and he wanted to go home. And so when we got him home, he just curled up in his bed. And that's exactly where he wanted to be. I had to convince my husband that that's what we needed to do because you know, this was a pretty scary thing when the doctors tell you you've he's got two days to live and so he have you know, but I don't know if this is what we're doing and we brought him home and and that's where that's where he wanted to be. How old was he he was a little over three three and a half such a baby.

05:20 Yep, my baby. Yeah, yeah, things like that. It's it takes you out of the knees. You know, how have you?

05:30 Con forward in life. What's giving you strength when I look back at that?

05:39 The thing that gave me the I mean, I really felt like if I hadn't had my daughter who was just a couple years older than him I could have run my car off of a bridge and I would have been just fine with that. But I had my daughter that I had to live for and I think the I did join a group called Compassionate Friends, which is a group of parents who have had children who've died. And there was a woman there one time that had her son had died a horrible death and he they he was missing and they found him at the bottom of a cesspool of holy smokes and I she was grieving so hard and I at that time I decided I had to make a decision. I have to either go forward or or or not, you know, and so really it was just a mess.

06:39 Decision saying this is this is way it is and you just got to keep going do you have is a faith-based that that helps you at all or spirituality or I think that has developed over the years obviously at 67, you know, when I grew up in North Dakota, we went to an eventual local church and I was you know, I loved it with a small community with a it was a warm church then when I was twelve we moved to Washington and then it was a big church and was a Methodist Church and I never really could get connected there and then my kids were raised in the Catholic church. So there was so then there was another experience but I think the biggest thing that has developed My Religion / spirituality is just the work that we do.

07:35 Because we we find that our patients come from all backgrounds and we have had a wealth of experiences and we learn from every single one of those experiences. And so that's really where I feel like and I don't think that God really cares to put a label on what our religion is as long as we live a good life and I feel sad for people who think that people need to be of a certain religion. And if you not then it's not, you know valuable. It doesn't count. It doesn't count. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we're all here. We're all connected and it's just

08:20 Yeah, and it keeps evolving, you know with all new experiences. It just keeps evolving what kinds of when you when you visualize an afterlife or you know, what comes after right now. What do you see will you know lately what I've been feeling is that you knows is the afterlife to me is going to be being out there in the universe and all of our Spirits are going to be connected and sure my parents are going to be there and my son is going to be there and we're going to feel them there but it's not we're not going to have our physical body anymore. It's just going to be an entity out there in the universe somewhere in where it's comfortable. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it is as time goes on for me.

09:15 I I kind of evolved I think to a very similar place where you are where it's it's it's the energy that's out there and you know, we're all made up of energy and matter and I think we just go from this form of energy and matter to

09:31 Something else something else. We just go out to the universe and then we'll maybe I don't know maybe come back as a different thing. I don't know. I don't know. I just I kind of like the idea of especially with my ALS patients, you know and just folks who are really really struggling with confinement within their own bodies their minds are still so vibrant, but I love the idea of seeing their energy just being rushed released out into the energy, you know, and just their free again and they can move and they can be anything. I just I love that idea. Yes. Yeah. I totally agree totally agree. Have you had any kind of

10:15 I don't know moments of of knowing that you're in the presence of the Divine or you know, just a spiritual kind of experience. It's this kind of overtaking you well, I think probably the the most recent time was my parents were both had moved into my house and my dad went on hospice the next day and he always wanted my mom and him to die together. That's what he wanted. My mom had had a brain injury from a fall a few years while back in 06 and so she was kind of like a dementia patient. We had to learn to speak her language. He's sure she's in my uncle was my brother and you know things like that that we needed to learn to speak her language me my dad really struggled with the fact that he was dying.

11:15 And he struggled so hard that he there was a couple of times that he wanted to commit suicide. He asked me to bring him a knife and I asked him why and he said well because he wanted to kill himself and one time he was headed to the kitchen and I said, where are you going and I'm going to the kitchen while he was going to go get a knife.

11:38 So he had he really did struggle with that whole idea of dying my mom on the other hand.

11:46 I really believe that when she had her brain injury because it was pretty bad and we almost lost her then but I'm sure that she had a near-death experience and she was very comfortable with the fact that she was going to die, but she would always say to me first him and then me first him and then me and she went on hospice a week or so before he died. And so they were both on hospice together at the same time and but one I would I would sleep in my dad's recliner in their chair so I could keep an eye on him at night, you know one night my dad woke up in the middle of the night stand up on the side of the bed and he says Randy was the best. That was my son.

12:41 And so I went over and I sat down beside him.

12:45 I said

12:47 Give him a hug for me and he just reaches around just like Randy was in front of him and gave him a big hug.

12:57 So that was pretty special.

13:00 So I think that was in there was one time that I had a dream of Randy after he died where I could was holding him.

13:12 Was dark

13:14 And I I knew it was time to wake up. But I knew that that would be the last time that I'd ever hold him.

13:24 Hope it's just they're always there. They are always there always there.

13:38 I'm just trying to gather myself against a big cry, baby.

13:45 I've seen.

13:50 I haven't dealt with too much death in my own life my own personal life. I had my stepmother who died a little over a year ago.

13:59 But I've seen

14:02 What you've talked about experiencing with your own family and I seen that in my patience when that happened and

14:12 There is something so incredibly profound and awesome and

14:23 I don't even know the word that I'm even trying to come up with but it's just it's it's a sacredness and it's something that is so incredibly.

14:33 Unique and special and a gift in those moments. That's the key really. I always tell my family's that this is a gift. They're given the gift to be there with their loved one to help them through this journey. And then also it's and it's a gift to them that the patient is off allowing them to be there. Absolutely. So it goes both ways to gift your right exactly. Right? Yeah, one of my most recently one of my patients had said that their mother it was a son who had been taking care of his mother for 11 years dementia. He had lived with her and all the other siblings several many other siblings, but all of them had children of their own and he was unmarried no kids. So he lived with his mother for 11 years and for about the last week or so. There was no communication they were

15:33 Nothing other than just her laying in the bed and and him providing personal care, you know and just trying to keep her clean and comfortable and all that and then within like an hour or two of of her passing all of a sudden he said that he had laid down next to her as he had done several times leading up to that and her eyes open and and just her head turned and they just locked eyes and he just it it's he he was just beside himself as he was telling me that I see no just wrapped with sobs and of gratitude and here's a man who devoted 11 years of his life caring for his mother who had dementia and really wasn't all there for a very long time and he was so full of gratitude for having been able to have cared for her for so long and that

16:33 She allowed him to provide that care for all that time. Exactly and I was so humbled by this humble man. It was it was incredible. And but again, it's just that. Presence of spirit to each other in that moment. And you know, your dad had that with your son right right prior to his passing and she was able to be there and give her own son. Just one left out a boy. You know, you did this for me. I love you. Thank you and you could tell that she was there when they absolutely he said it was a clear as she had been in years. So that was that was pretty profound. So in and he was a very spiritual man, not particularly, you know quote on quote religion.

17:33 He just he said the Divine was there.

17:36 I had when I was a pretty new hospice nurse and I was on call one night and about 5 in the morning. I had gotten a call from a facility a patient who has Alzheimer's has been on tube feeding for 10 years. So my the husband would come in every morning at 6 and leave every night at 6 like he did that for 10 years was she was having seizures and vomiting and so got some orders to you know, turn the machine off and give her some medication and I got to the facility and and her husband was there.

18:15 And he was an elderly man in somebody else could come with him and he was adamant totally adamant that she have her last rights because that's what you do when you're Catholic and somebody's dying and she hadn't had that yet. Well, this was a Saturday morning at 6, and you don't get priests on the phone at 6 in the morning on a Saturday and there was one of two parishes that he was really hoping that somebody could come from will fortunately our neighbor worked at one of them. And so I called her up and I said merry we need a priest and she's well, you're not going to get anybody cuz they're all downtown at a big convention. I was in and out of the room several times and I've walked into the room and her breathing has changed and I thought oh, no, this is not good. So I listen to her heart and there was no heartbeat.

19:11 And so I told him that you know her heart it stopped and that soon her breathing would would would stop and that she would be she would be gone. The doctor had called me while I was there. And I said, well she's gone went back out to the nurse's station and came back in she started breathing again. And I know this is really strange here. I am a brand-new hospice nurse. I knew nothing about these kinds of things and I listen to her heart and it had started beating and then somehow all of a sudden and walked three priests one was the elderly priest that he was really hoping for and a younger person who drove him there and another priest from a totally different Parish. We don't know how they got there.

19:58 But they got there and the elderly priest was looking in his book trying to find the right page in the younger one says father. Do you need some help and it has no and I said hurry up. We don't we need to ask, you know, and he Around the Clock here now, so she doesn't have you know, she's going he anointed her last palm and she took her last breath awesome, but nobody's going to ever believe the stories guess it was just it was just it was a miracle. Lee was a miracle because he would not her husband would not be able to live with himself if she had not had her last rites. And so she was able to hold on long enough.

20:41 To make that happen for him. That's incredible. That is incredible.

20:52 What did you feel when that was going on? Well, I like I said, I've been sheer Panic. Is that how are we going to make this happen? Right? Well, I was calling the chaplain at the hospital. I like I said, I called my neighbor did everything that I could to think of to to get a hold of a priest and then but I ain't like I said, I'm a I'm a brand-new hospice nurse. I didn't know that these kinds of Miracles would even exist. So it was just one of those big lessons that I learned at the very beginning of of things that the human human body can do. They really do decide when they're going to die how they're going to die and who's going to be with them when they die, they can wait for a holiday. They can wait for her birthday somebody to get there a family member that hasn't been there. It's really up to them or a family member to leave or

21:52 Family member to leave. Yeah, that's another one. Yeah. Yeah, they can do 24-hour Visual and then walk out the door and and that's finally their time that they can go exactly exactly I was in the home of a patient when that happened there had to have been 15 family members all gathered around the bed and just watching and waiting and watching and waiting and that there was like you could hear a pin drop and the only thing you could hear was this person breathing and then the grandson you could hear him coming up on the motorcycle from outside. It's like Danny's here and everybody got up out of the room. And then as soon as they ushered Danny back into the room Grandma was gone, you know, she didn't want to have an audience. I know it's like leave me alone so I can die in peace. I don't want you to see me go. You just never know. Yeah, you just never know.

22:49 So what some of the biggest life lessons that you've learned from just life in general or maybe even specifically from from hospice cuz oh my gosh, don't we learn every day on this job every day every every patient every situation is a new lesson so different and

23:09 I think probably the biggest thing that I've learned would just be to be present. That's all they that's all we need to do is be present. We don't need to say a lot. We don't need to learn up do a lot. It's just our presents that that that is needed.

23:32 I never thought that you could do so much by doing so little exactly it took me a long time to figure that out, but it's nice to finally get that lesson. Well and really when you if you can settle into that and just be kind of like an outsider looking in instead of feeling like you need to be

24:00 Doing something all the time and that's why I like to use for families. I've said this multiple times of having our patients being in the middle of this bubble because they have this huge job that they're working on to get ready to leave this this world. And every time we have to go into their space, which we do we have to give him medication that we have to clean them up or repositioned him. All these kinds of things that we have to do to them. They have to stop and pay attention to the outside world. So if we can just be present because you know how hard it is for families because they want to take care of their loved one. And one of the hardest things for them to realize is I mean is the hovering thing, you know constantly asking him questions. Are you? Okay? Do you need some medicine are you in pain if you need something to eat drink read or whatever?

25:00 Yes, yes. Yes and there's so many things in all they've all the patient needs is to be left alone. Just be left alone and do the minimum let them, you know, let them tell you if they can what they need or just by their body language love times reading their body language.

25:25 But they need.

25:28 Has his experience working in hospice for so long? Has it changed the way that you

25:36 Look on things you prioritize things. Well, I think in some ways it has and I

25:46 Certainly has in some ways and I kind of think of it as

25:53 I have a nephew who is in the military and he's been he's been on multiple tours.

26:01 And one time when we were visiting him, it was it was interesting watching him.

26:10 And other people talking about menial things that don't matter or nitpicking on things that really don't matter. So there's things that matter and there's things that don't and so there's a really why do we need to focus our energy on the things that don't really matter and judge things judge people, you know, there's nothing we can do about it. Just let it be you know, and for I think being an you know, working with hospices is just helping guide people through the Journey.

26:54 It's a hard journey. It is it's a hard journey and everybody everybody experiences at a different way, you know and even within the unfailing there within that their own family, they experience it differently exactly. Yeah, and that's why it's you know meeting everybody's needs trying to trying to trying to yeah, which isn't always successful exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So how does that make you feel when sometimes we can't necessarily meet I need I know I struggle with that it is it really is a challenge and we had a recent patient. That was a big Challenge and we all basically

27:41 You know.

27:44 What it what's the word I want process that in a different way and everybody kind of had their own it own ideas. But basically it's it's coming to the realization that there's only so much that we can do and we have to let the person experience it the way that they need to it's a constant reminder for me. This is not my journey. This is their journey and they're going to do things that I wouldn't necessarily.

28:20 But it's their journey and I need to bless that and let it go. Right. Yeah, it is best you can but it's their Journey how many times have we had patients that live in very?

28:33 Harsh situations where there is living environment is deplorable and we just want to take them and put them somewhere that would be nicer and that's what they want right. Now. You know what that? Yeah, that's been one of the biggest hurdles for me, you know, that that is spiritual angst emotional angst of

29:00 We know things could be better and learning how to let that go when it's not their choice if that's if they're great where they are and that's what they've known and they don't want to make those changes. That's been the hardest thing for me to let go but we can do better for you. I can make this so much easier if you know realize yeah. Yeah, but for whatever reason there's something from that experience that they need to get out of it or learn, you know, and who are we to come by and say no no, no, you can't do that. You have to do this instead exactly. You know what exactly? Yeah. Somebody said something to me when I very first started its

29:46 Get out of there way, except that's exactly right. Yeah, you might be there to guide him. But still it's their Journey that's been one if that I think the most helpful lessons that I've learned in being able to negotiate this very difficult job.

30:08 Yeah, it is. It's not easy. No, it's not.

30:12 So we talked about lots of different things, you know related to in our hospice folks and and the experience with you and your son and and then losing your parents to life comes at you fast and has your life turned out exactly as you wanted or have there been as her our foremost have there been little dog leg left so long the way well I think about I think about this a lot actually when I grew up I grew up in a small town comparatively in North Dakota as a little girl and I remember one time having to write a letter to Disneyland to get information and you know, there was a computer's information about what about Disneyland Disney Disneyland, OK and I did write a paper whatever it was you. Okay, so and I thought well, I'll never be able to go there and now that I when I turn sixty my

31:12 How old was to travel to a different country every year and I've been able to meet that goal have been to Disneyland multiple times and countries all over the world with your favorite. Well so far India in Peru and well in Africa has to be in there too. So yeah, I I just I had that's just one of them one of the things that I look forward to all the time. Is it where am I going to go next? That's a long way from Minot North Dakota. Is it true? They say it's not the end of the world that you can see it from there. I suppose. Yeah, I suppose you have you been there. I have not I've heard of that in him in a previous life. I knew someone that not like like like real life. But when I was younger not like an obvious place like, you know Shirley MacLaine previously, but I knew somebody who was stationed in Minot North Dakota Air Force Base the Air Force Base for you military or no, I wasn't military then.

32:11 Okay, so it's just family wasn't yeah. Yeah. I love Demi North Dakota. So I turned into a big thing from you. I will always wanted to travel when I was in high school. I wanted to be a flight attendant but then you couldn't be a flight attendant if you were classes, or if you would this weight or whatever, you know, she told to ya ya know anybody can be applied to a lot of people can be flight attendants know.

32:40 Oh, how fun. Was there anything else that you wanted to talk about today? No, I just think I just love the opportunity to be able to share our stories. I mean we both have had a wealth of stories that we could be sharing with people in and if this is another way that we can help people through their journey. I just think it's a wonderful program that were able to do this. Thank you for coming and thank you for doing this with me. I really appreciate it. I appreciate your time.