Anna Wermuth and Amy Brooks

[00:04] ANNA WERMUTH: My name is Anna Wermouth. I'm 26 years old. Today is June 28, 2023. I'm in Colorado Springs, Colorado, and I'm here with Amy who is my mentor, former boss, former library boss, and adopted mom.

[00:26] AMY BROOKS: My name's Amy Brooks and I'm 62 years old. And today's date is June 28, 2023 in Colorado Springs, Colorado, in the beautiful Rocky Mountains. Anna Wermuth is my interview partner, my former student, assistant, friend, surrogate daughter, emphasis on friend, and also an inspiration to me.

[00:50] ANNA WERMUTH: Oh, that's very sweet. Yeah. I mean, I needed someone as a student at CC, which you were also a student at CC, and I spent so much time coming to you for help, because I just was looking for support, and it was right there in my workplace and my little student job at the library. And so I wanted to do this with you because I. I feel like you've spent so many hours listening to me, and there's so much I still don't know about your life, and this seemed like a fun way to do that. So can you please just tell me, tell me something ridiculous from when you were a student at Colorado College, please, because I want to know. Or just the type of student that you were, and maybe you surprised yourself and did something rebellious or.

[01:42] AMY BROOKS: Well, I'll just say I graduated class of 1982. I was a surprise cc student because I started out at CU Boulder and it wasn't for me. So I transferred and got in. You know, I guess I sealed my passion for languages. That's one of the things that I discovered, that I follow my heart in my studies. So those times when I was taking language classes were my happiest times. I was not a brilliant student, but I ended up getting Phi beta kappa for some godforsaken reason. So I'm grateful for that. So I look back on that with pride, but crazy. Did you say.

[02:21] ANNA WERMUTH: Well, you were in a sorority, you're telling me.

[02:22] AMY BROOKS: No, no, I wasn't in a sorority, no.

[02:24] ANNA WERMUTH: Okay.

[02:25] AMY BROOKS: No. Let's see. I did do theater there on the side, but I was a language major. Crazy. Let's see. Well, I went and studied in Italy for a semester. That was. And I worked in Paris for a summer between years of college.

[02:38] ANNA WERMUTH: Did you meet any hot european men? Like, that's what I want to know.

[02:42] AMY BROOKS: Not that time around, but, yeah, living in Italy was amazing, but it's a privilege. I see. It's a privilege. What else would you like to know, Anna

[02:53] ANNA WERMUTH: Oh, I don't know. Did you have any sort of romantic endeavors when you were at the college.

[02:58] AMY BROOKS: I had some adventures. Yeah, I had some adventures, I guess. You did?

[03:02] ANNA WERMUTH: Okay. You didn't fall in love with anyone?

[03:04] AMY BROOKS: I did. I did. But one of them was an alcoholic.

[03:08] ANNA WERMUTH: Oh, fun.

[03:09] AMY BROOKS: An active alcohol at the time, so I kind of got pulled into that, and that was not the most healthy situation. I'm kind of a late bloomer, so my lasting relationships came later, later in my life.

[03:23] ANNA WERMUTH: Well, that's been true for me, too, because all the times I thought I was in love as a student, it was all of these sad boys, these little broken, wounded birds that I, for some reason, was pulled to. Yeah. You know, that whole people pleaser thing that I have going on definitely caught up to me when I was at school as well.

[03:44] AMY BROOKS: And by the way, going back to what you said about that, I was your mentor. The thing maybe you don't realize is that I was learning from you all that time, in those four years that you worked for me, for us. I just have such admiration for you because at such a young age, you had such conviction of belief, talent coming out the ears. And it's interesting for a person, you know, of your mother's age and a little older, to see a young person as they're like, wow, this young woman's really got it together. And, you know, it's very humbling. Very humbling. Like, it's like my daughter. Like, I watch my daughter, and she. I have the same feeling about her.

[04:29] ANNA WERMUTH: Oh, that's sweet.

[04:30] AMY BROOKS: That, like, everything that you brought to Cc exceeded anything I could possibly have ever had going on at that age.

[04:36] ANNA WERMUTH: Sure.

[04:37] AMY BROOKS: I was just. I've considered myself kind of a dumb little girl when I went to college.

[04:41] ANNA WERMUTH: Well, that's silly. I mean, I was too, in a lot of ways, but I guess I had to be mature, right? And so, you know, I was figuring a lot of things out for myself. But to be completely clear, you're only two years older than my mom.

[04:56] AMY BROOKS: Oh, okay.

[04:57] ANNA WERMUTH: So don't feel old at all.

[04:59] AMY BROOKS: Okay, good. Thank you. I appreciate that.

[05:01] ANNA WERMUTH: Ageism.

[05:02] AMY BROOKS: Ageism is a thing. I'll let you know that.

[05:03] ANNA WERMUTH: Oh, gosh. Yeah.

[05:04] AMY BROOKS: I'll let you know that.

[05:05] ANNA WERMUTH: Have you been dealing with that at work at all?

[05:08] AMY BROOKS: Not at work, no, thankfully. I don't know if we're talking just about the workplace, but I will tell you, since we're. I guess we can just go with the flow here, that I did online dating for a long time. When I turned 60, it was silence. Crickets, absolute crickets. Because men are looking for a 25 year old girlfriend. So that was tough.

[05:27] ANNA WERMUTH: Or even the notion that if you're still in your fifties, you're dateable, and if you're suddenly 60, you're not.

[05:33] AMY BROOKS: Like, something changes overnight when you go from 59 to 60. So I'm just saying that there are real ways in which ageism, of course, is a thing, especially when we become invisible.

[05:44] ANNA WERMUTH: Especially among the men of your generation. No offense.

[05:47] AMY BROOKS: Well, there are a lot of them out there. There's some good ones, though.

[05:49] ANNA WERMUTH: Yeah.

[05:53] AMY BROOKS: I did that for a while.

[05:54] ANNA WERMUTH: Mike is also. He's not older than you, is he?

[05:58] AMY BROOKS: He's two years younger than I am.

[05:59] ANNA WERMUTH: There you go.

[06:00] AMY BROOKS: But I did meet a guy who was 17 years younger at one point, and I got a lot of grief. I got called a cougar. I got so much grief, I'm like, excuse me, if the tables were turned, right, and you were 17 years older.

[06:10] ANNA WERMUTH: Than me, wouldn't say anything about it.

[06:11] AMY BROOKS: Nobody would care.

[06:12] ANNA WERMUTH: Right.

[06:12] AMY BROOKS: So I learned a lot also about ageism and how there's a double standard for women, of course, you know, in most things. But anyway. But I digress.

[06:21] ANNA WERMUTH: Well, you met your mic, and I met my mic. He's very sweet.

[06:25] AMY BROOKS: Worth the wait, for sure.

[06:26] ANNA WERMUTH: Well, now I just kind of want to talk about that more.

[06:30] AMY BROOKS: Okay. Well, I mean, I guess I would just say the best things in life are worth waiting for. And the thing about love for me is I needed to go through all these ridiculous, failed relationships before I can become the fully realized person that I am. I didn't know it at the time, but every single one of those experiences helped shape who I am today, you know? And it's worth it.

[06:54] ANNA WERMUTH: Yeah, I agree. I mean, I'm only 26, and I've already had to come to terms with that because it's the only way I can make sense of everything extremely difficult that's happened in my life. And especially. Well, I mean, I don't know. I guess while we're on the note of romantic relationships, like, I can totally see how that's manifesting for me currently. And, you know, to know that some of those younger pursuits that I had were an experiment and figuring out what I needed and what I did. Yeah. A lot of practice. And obviously, I was, you know, in my early twenties. It's like I was still a kid in so many ways, but figuring out what I was looking for and then noticing it when I find it. Right. Like, when I met Alex, I was like, oh, okay, you gotta kiss a few frogs. Yeah. Right.

[07:43] AMY BROOKS: So it really is true.

[07:44] ANNA WERMUTH: You have to you know, I don't know if you've ever felt this, but being in a relationship with someone and knowing that nothing lasts forever and that it's okay to be with someone and learn from them and not feel totally sure about what the future holds and.

[08:01] AMY BROOKS: Yeah.

[08:01] ANNA WERMUTH: And not try to, you know, confine yourself to what the relationship is supposed to look like or how long it's supposed to last. I feel strange about that because I don't want to sit there and say, like, you're just going to be forever. Yeah. And I don't feel that way. Right. Because I don't know what will happen. But I guess I'm curious, like, how did you know when you wanted to have a kid with someone? Because that's where I'm, you know, trying to navigate, like, the next few years.

[08:27] AMY BROOKS: Motherhood was a surprise for me.

[08:29] ANNA WERMUTH: Okay.

[08:30] AMY BROOKS: It's the best surprise I've ever had. Best thing I've ever done in my life. If it had been, if I left to my own devices, I might not have had a kid. Quite honestly, when I got pregnant, I was like, yeah, cool, let's do this. And thank God. If you believe in God or the deity. I mean, I couldn't have planned it better myself. I mean, I could not have planned it.

[08:53] ANNA WERMUTH: Wow.

[08:53] AMY BROOKS: And out came Tess, my daughter. And she's the best.

[08:57] ANNA WERMUTH: She's wonderful. Yeah. She's so good.

[09:00] AMY BROOKS: Yeah. So I don't know if a person can ever be ready for motherhood, but I will say, for your benefit that it's good to live your life as much as possible before having kids, because then you get do stuff. You get out there and travel and work and discover yourself. And then when you have your baby, it's like, okay, I'm ready to stay home and take care of my baby now. And you don't have these. These unrealized dreams that you're harboring in your heart, you know? So I had tests when I was 37, and I'm just so thankful because I had already done a bunch of stuff before I had her, and then I was ready.

[09:36] ANNA WERMUTH: Yeah.

[09:37] AMY BROOKS: Just ready. So I think if you plan it, that's great. If you don't, that's great.

[09:41] ANNA WERMUTH: Well, I think I'm gonna plan it for when I'm 35 so that I can feel prepared and go off birth.

[09:47] AMY BROOKS: Control at 35 and see what happens.

[09:49] ANNA WERMUTH: Oh, it's funny. I've already done that, actually. I'm doing. I haven't told you, but I'm doing the natural cycles method, where you take your temperature every morning. And it can tell you when you're ovulated. Yeah, well, there's an app with an algorithm now, of course, so it gives you a visual of, like, here's how long your cycle average is. And there's an app for you. Exactly. Literally. It's actually quite nice because the hormonal birth control wasn't working for me anymore in the sense that I felt disconnected from my body and my cycle. So now I get to have regular periods, and they've actually been pretty moderate, like, they haven't been as bad as they have in the past. And I get to know when I'm fertile and when I'm not. And so it works in that sense that it gives you an idea of, like, when you could get pregnant and when you.

[10:33] AMY BROOKS: It's like a circling back to old school.

[10:36] ANNA WERMUTH: It's pretty old school.

[10:37] AMY BROOKS: Like, old school is a thing that actually, that's another thing I would say about ageism, I guess, is that old school isn't worth throwing away.

[10:44] ANNA WERMUTH: Oh, my gosh. There are so many cool practices and ways of living that come from older generation.

[10:50] AMY BROOKS: I mean, the difference being, of course, women have a lot more independence and rights than I used to back in the old days.

[10:56] ANNA WERMUTH: Totally.

[10:56] AMY BROOKS: And now we can actually go back to old school and own also our independence and strength.

[11:02] ANNA WERMUTH: And it totally depends on the situation, because I, you know, in college, I never would have done this right, because you can't keep up with it. And now I'm at a point in my life where I feel safe enough to use a method that's, like, 95% effective if you do it right, you know, and then there's that 5% that's like, oh, I could get pregnant and then have to deal with that.

[11:19] AMY BROOKS: How do you feel about that 5%?

[11:20] ANNA WERMUTH: I feel okay. I feel well, here in Colorado, I can get what I need. It a sort of morning after or even if a couple weeks go by.

[11:27] AMY BROOKS: What about having the baby?

[11:29] ANNA WERMUTH: Oh, gosh. I don't think I would just spontaneously have a baby. It feels like such a big decision for me because I'm. Hey, it's old school. Well, yeah, I know, but here's the thing. Here's the thing. It's expensive, right? Like, the practical things come to mind, I guess, first and foremost, like, I really want to have home and a stable co parent. And I wanted to ask you about Tess's dad. Like, did you have enough support from him? And you just.

[11:59] AMY BROOKS: It wasn't support for me. It was support on behalf of Tess. So. So that is to say we co parented, but not together. I mean, we. It was not. It was not a cordial relationship. Yeah, but we managed to co parent somehow, but it was. Yeah, it was hard and was hard.

[12:16] ANNA WERMUTH: For her, too, probably.

[12:17] AMY BROOKS: Yeah.

[12:18] ANNA WERMUTH: Yeah, I. So I. You know, as a child of divorce, let's say, no, you have every right to control, and I, you know, it's like, I have to. I'm just realizing in the last two years that I have to remother myself first. Like, I have such deep mother wounds that I do not want to pass.

[12:34] AMY BROOKS: You have such a good point. Like, the whole thing about passing along the. The pain of the generations. You gotta break the chain, you know?

[12:43] ANNA WERMUTH: Yeah, you're so right.

[12:44] AMY BROOKS: I mean, I. I was just playing devil's advocate over here about, oh, of course, spontaneously having a baby, but it's just, of course I want you to have a baby because I want to be Auntie Amy that wants a baby.

[12:54] ANNA WERMUTH: But I would need that, actually. It's so funny to think about, you know, looking at my friends who just had their baby, and they've got their parents around and their immediate family all live in Colorado and everyone's, you know, supportive and loving and all that. I wouldn't have that. I mean, I would have it from my chosen family, you and all my friends, but I don't think I could have my own mom in my baby's life. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. You know, it's sad, but I think it's the right decision and it could change. But she would have to, you know, start getting professional help, and I don't think she's going to. So we'll see. I think some of my siblings could be involved, potentially, but obviously, right. There's a part of me that really wants to give that child a very, um, tender and free flowing life that's not obstructed by, like, family dysfunction and trauma.

[13:48] AMY BROOKS: You know, I think that's really smart.

[13:49] ANNA WERMUTH: And to know that, like, trauma does happen, it happens to everyone in some degree. Like, even if you get in a car accident and you're five and it freaks you out or, you know, you have an encounter with a peer that's really upsetting and you internalize something about yourself, a belief that's negative. It's like, it happens to all humans. It's just, I want to develop more skills to know how to address that in my own child. Like, the thing that we're all, you know, not told, unfortunately, is that, like, we all are moving through the world with a nervous system that basically calls the shots. Right. So, like, if your nervous system is on high alert, you're gonna navigate your life from that fight or flight. Yeah. From that place of stress. Or freeze, actually, is another one of those responses. And I was in freeze for a long time, so I'm coming out of freeze and I'm like, okay, well, how can I be in a place that's calm and regulated? Because that's what your child experiences. Right. Like, when you're holding a child and breastfeeding and teaching a child about the world, they're noticing your nervous system. And it's true for the co parent, too, of course, right? So, like, I'm really keen on finding a co parent who, like, has knowledge about the nervous system tools to come into self regulation. Co regulation doing with another person. Right. And then the baby gets the chance to feel safe in the world and in their own body. And I can see that with my friends and their baby. And it's so magical. Like, Demi's just taking Zoe on these little walks. Right. You know, there's a lot of rest happening, a lot of one on one time with mom and dad, and, like, a lot of really good social interaction that doesn't feel scary. And I'm like, oh, okay. You know, I mean, obviously I have, like, infant trauma with my hand accident. So it's like, what would it be like to have a baby in my life, in my world, that I grew in my own body and then give them a chance to just feel safe and held by the world?

[15:47] AMY BROOKS: It's like, can you tell me about your hand accident? I think you told me once.

[15:50] ANNA WERMUTH: But I. Yeah, I mean, I was. I was ten months old. Ten months?

[15:55] AMY BROOKS: Wow.

[15:56] ANNA WERMUTH: Yeah. And it was thanksgiving.

[15:57] AMY BROOKS: I didn't realize you were that young.

[15:58] ANNA WERMUTH: Yeah. It truly, like pre memory. Right? Like, the brain has hardly formed at that point, but it's. But it's forming quickly at the same time. Right. Like, those first three years. Like, I think there's some statistic where the research shows that, like, 75% of your brain development happens in the first three years of your life. So, anyway, it was thanksgiving. My parents lived in this house by the airport. We moved shortly after, so I don't remember this house, but I guess they were in the kitchen upstairs with adults, and I guess they had friends at the time, which also kind of baffles me. But the neighbor kids were over. You know, it's like me and my four older siblings and some other kids are in the finished basement doing kids stuff. But I'm a ten month old infant just crawling around. And they had a stationary, my parents had, I guess, a stationary bike with the metal spokes back in. This is in 97. So this twelve year old neighbor kid is just, you know, pedaling away on the stationary bike, and I see a shiny wheel in motion. And I just stuck my hand right in there. And then my sisters had to go pick up my little finger pieces, and I was in surgery for hours. And. Yeah.

[17:11] AMY BROOKS: You know what's interesting, though, Anna is that I've noticed the time I've known you that you celebrate your missing finger.

[17:17] ANNA WERMUTH: I started doing that as a student, actually. I started making art because I was like, wait a second.

[17:22] AMY BROOKS: And photos, I was like, I'm trying to be unique.

[17:24] ANNA WERMUTH: I'm an aquarius. I want to make art, and I want it to be original. And it's like, well, what's the most original, unique thing about me? And it's my little hand with my one and a half missing finger.

[17:35] AMY BROOKS: You know what's interesting, too? I don't know if I've told you this observation about you because you're a mycologist, so you're passionate about mushrooms.

[17:43] ANNA WERMUTH: Yeah.

[17:44] AMY BROOKS: Your hand looks kind of like a mushroom, like a beautiful fungi.

[17:47] ANNA WERMUTH: I have to show you how. Thank you. I have to show you my new drawings because I've been taking photos. Like, I'll find a really beautiful specimen in the woods and I'll take a photo with it or something. I grew up.

[17:59] AMY BROOKS: Does it remind, does your hand make it?

[18:00] ANNA WERMUTH: Well, yeah. I mean, it's weird, right? And mushrooms with fungi are weird, and people, like, don't understand them, so there's a lot of connection there. And they're super beautiful. I've been taking photos with just holding them right in this hand, and I'm going back and I'm like, wait, I can draw that? You know, I like to draw. So I've been drawing the photos, but adding, you know, bright colors and making it, you know, different than the original image. And it's gonna be a whole series. I just haven't shown you them yet. So. Yeah. And I kind of want to draw one where my hand is, like, becoming a mushroom, too. Right. Because that's like, the transformative power that they have is to reconstitute organic matter from other beings. Oh, yeah.

[18:42] AMY BROOKS: Oh, yeah.

[18:43] ANNA WERMUTH: That's what they do. That's what mycelium does.

[18:46] AMY BROOKS: Well, you know, the. So just to kind of think about the themes we were talking about earlier, like celebrating something that began as a tragedy and then, you know, and making it into something beautiful and something to be celebrated and something to love, and, like, we could apply that to all the pain we've had in our life, too. That because we're talking about, you know, kissing a few frogs or whatever it is that we've been through that's been hard. There's no, like, I like to think of that as scar tissue. That that is beautiful. You know, that's part of us. Those layers of scar tissue become part of, oh, here comes the kleenex. That those. That's to be celebrated too. Like, every frog that you've ever kissed or every painful experience you've had with your parents or your family, your siblings, your many siblings, like, maybe someday that will all feel like something to celebrate, because it makes you who you are. Like, it makes you the strong woman that you are.

[19:49] ANNA WERMUTH: Yeah, I agree with you. There's, I think, someone. I can't remember who. Probably roomie. I mean, if we're honest, the roomie said it all, but something about there being alchemy in that. Right. And then I think there's this style of japanese or chinese pottery where there's intentional cracks in the piece, and then they fill it with, like, gold. Gold leaf or, you know, I love it.

[20:16] AMY BROOKS: Yeah. Gold glaze.

[20:17] ANNA WERMUTH: Because that's where the beauty and the piece is, is in those cracks.

[20:21] AMY BROOKS: Wow. I saw a piece. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

[20:24] ANNA WERMUTH: Whoa. I just. I do. I do feel that way. I mean, it's incredibly harrowing and overwhelming at times to try to convince myself that I can just be a witch and alchemize all of the suffering into something beautiful. It's kind of exhausting.

[20:41] AMY BROOKS: It's a lot of work, but it.

[20:43] ANNA WERMUTH: Is really fulfilling too. And, yeah, I think that is why I love mycelium so much, is because it just transforms everything around it.

[20:53] AMY BROOKS: Yeah, I love it. I love it. Can I ask how you have both.

[20:57] ANNA WERMUTH: Re parented yourself in also? How Amy has helped you to do that? That's a great question.

[21:02] AMY BROOKS: So we have about ten minutes.

[21:03] ANNA WERMUTH: Thank you.

[21:04] AMY BROOKS: Thank you.

[21:08] ANNA WERMUTH: Yes.

[21:08] AMY BROOKS: Okay. Thank you.

[21:11] ANNA WERMUTH: While you go, how have we parented ourselves?

[21:17] AMY BROOKS: I mean, I think. I think I'm still just a little girl inside, really, the hurt little girl. But if anything, I would say finding safety with chosen family, like my chosen friends and our boss, Jessie, at the library. She's an amazing friend and source of safety. And I guess it's also permission. Permission to rest, permission to not beat up on myself. I mean, a lot of my themes are everything has to be perfect. And, you know, I did something wrong? You know, I must. I must be responsible for this, but then allowing myself to say no. No, actually, no, this isn't on me.

[22:05] ANNA WERMUTH: Yeah.

[22:06] AMY BROOKS: And so things like that, I guess it's more like just philosophical, like ways of thinking and, like, physical things. Maybe gardening is a way to, like, be in touch with nature and kind of be live strictly in the moment.

[22:22] ANNA WERMUTH: Yeah.

[22:22] AMY BROOKS: Just be out there with the weeds and, you know, that that brings me some peace.

[22:26] ANNA WERMUTH: Well, I would argue. I would argue that saying no and telling yourself kind things to reverse some of that negativity or self criticism and perfectionism that you have, those have, like, very real physical consequences for your life because it changes who you spend your time around and it changes, you know.

[22:47] AMY BROOKS: The decisions, you setting boundaries.

[22:48] ANNA WERMUTH: Well, yeah, period.

[22:49] AMY BROOKS: I think, actually I should have put it that way. Setting boundaries. I've tried to teach my daughter that, too. You're allowed to set boundaries. You don't have to say yes to everybody. You don't have to be friends with everybody.

[22:57] ANNA WERMUTH: Exactly.

[22:58] AMY BROOKS: You don't have to be a yes man, yes woman. So how about you? How have you reparented yourself?

[23:02] ANNA WERMUTH: Oh, wow. I mean, very similar themes of safety, of chosen family. That one is huge. Right. Because, you know, I was stuck at home in a lot of ways, but then I came here for school and all of a sudden I sensed it before I got here. I was like, I'm going to be surrounded by good people and friends that truly care about me and are going to help me out with my life. And that's exactly what's happened. And it just keeps growing. Right. Like, I'm just surrounded by this community. So that's pretty crucial. But in terms of sort of my one on one more intimate relationship with myself. Yeah. A lot of permission. Permission to rest and permission to be joyful, I think, you know, finishing school and realizing, like, doesn't have to be life doesn't have to be a stressful, you know, experience of pursuing ambition. It's like, what if I just enjoy myself and I do what makes me happy and focus on creativity? Because little Anna is just trying to draw and sing and write all the time.

[24:17] AMY BROOKS: I love it.

[24:18] ANNA WERMUTH: So I'm still figuring that out, too, because I just want to give myself all of the space to feel like a little kid if that's what I need to do.

[24:29] AMY BROOKS: I think giggling is a big part of that.

[24:31] ANNA WERMUTH: Yeah. And my therapist, I mean, I've had so many silly, silly jokes. I've had yourself before. Yes. And I need funny people in my life. Totally. My therapists. I've had a handful over the last five years, and going consistently is a huge part of reparenting. But my current one is really good at doing sort of like, inner child visualization, connecting with, hey, how old is this part of you that feels like she's too much for the world, overwhelmed by, you know, everything all at once, and feels like she has to carry other people's stuff all day and forever and eternity, and then, you know, bring her, you know, my therapist is like, bring her to the present. She doesn't have to go back there. Like, I have a little sticky note right now that's like, just bring little Ann to the present, because she can come hang out in the living room and draw, and she doesn't have to, you know, be the messenger between her divorced parents who can't even talk to each other or, you know, fix all of the financial woes of the household. You know, she just needed a chance to be a kid. So I'm just trying to do that in real time. Yeah. Letting some of this adult, all these adult lies that we're told that we're supposed to be a certain way. You know, I sometimes hear my mom's voice in my head, like, well, what are you doing with your degree, and how are you going to have a career, and how are you going to save money? You know, she had just a lot of fear around that stuff, and I just don't want to be afraid. I just want to, like, trust my own inner knowing, you know?

[26:06] AMY BROOKS: I'll just tell you about a moment I had the other day with my mom, who's 92, about to be 92. She was criticizing me when she actually should have been thanking me for something I did, which was very difficult for me to do. And she was super cranky and super critical. And I talked to back to her. She said, well, I don't mean to be critical. I said, but you are being critical, mom. And then I went away, and I thought, I'm at peace with myself. I'm good. I'm good here. I didn't do anything wrong. I actually provided a service that's on her, and that's actually very new for me and very strengthening for me to say. I don't think so. Yeah, I don't think you're gonna put.

[26:47] ANNA WERMUTH: Your not just the self talk, but saying to the other person how they're affecting you.

[26:53] AMY BROOKS: Yeah. But mainly, I didn't feel like I had to call her and say, oh, mom, I'm so sorry I spoke up to you. It's like, no, actually, no, I'm good. So occasionally that happens where you just feel like, you know, I don't actually have to worry about this. Cause I didn't do anything wrong.

[27:08] ANNA WERMUTH: Exactly. Yeah.

[27:09] AMY BROOKS: So.

[27:10] ANNA WERMUTH: Takes practice.

[27:11] AMY BROOKS: Yeah.

[27:12] ANNA WERMUTH: Well, you. Okay. So the other part of the question is how you've helped me with the reparenting. Because truly, I mean, I had to come to terms with, my mom is extremely abusive, and I can't have her in my life. Right. Like, that was a whole process as a student. And then finally I went, no contact three years ago. But that's been really healing for me. And then to know that I can come to you and that you are modeling all of these really incredible behaviors and values in your life and that you are going to support me unconditionally. And you trust me. I mean, you tell me, like, Anna you're right where you need to be. I mean, you're in touch with, like, your own spiritual world that. That has taught you how to just surrender to the flow of life and let things be as they are and just have that love that can't really be touched by anything.

[28:06] AMY BROOKS: Maybe I'm saying that to myself at the same time, like, that perhaps I see some of myself in you and that I know for different reasons what it feels like.

[28:18] ANNA WERMUTH: Yeah.

[28:19] AMY BROOKS: But it's easy because you. You know, you're. You've got so much going on that's.

[28:23] ANNA WERMUTH: I make it so easy for you.

[28:24] AMY BROOKS: You just do.

[28:25] ANNA WERMUTH: You're welcome.

[28:25] AMY BROOKS: You're easy to love.

[28:26] ANNA WERMUTH: Yes.

[28:27] AMY BROOKS: Thank you. And you're welcome.

[28:29] ANNA WERMUTH: And I'm also not your daughter, so we don't have all that history just.

[28:33] AMY BROOKS: Slightly removed there, but, yeah, it's an easy. It's easy to love you, Hannah.

[28:36] ANNA WERMUTH: No, that's very sweet. Yeah. Ugh. Thank you, Amy Easy peasy. That feels like a good place to end.

[28:47] AMY BROOKS: Yeah, maybe so. And here's to taking the ingredients of pain like a fungi, making them into something else.

[29:02] ANNA WERMUTH: Something else.

[29:02] AMY BROOKS: Something that can grow, and something beautiful.

[29:05] ANNA WERMUTH: Cheers to that. Cheers. One.