Beth Zemsky and Kierra Johnson

Recorded January 26, 2013 Archived January 26, 2013 41:40 minutes
0:00 / 0:00
Id: atd000835


New friends and colleagues Beth Zemsky, 53, and Kierra Johnson, 36, discuss their advocacy work at the intersection of the LGBT, feminist, racial equality, and body liberation movements.

Subject Log / Time Code

Beth (B) started coming out in 1977 as an 18 year old in Ithica, NY. She saw many gay and lesbian couples holding hands not knowing it related to her. She became very involved in gender/sexuality studies at Cornell University. She moved to St. Lous, MO for graduate school and suddenly her ability to live openly as a lesbian was in question. The paper Gay Community News out of Boston kept her politically involved in LGBT issues (it also formed the basis of the new National Gay and Lesbian Task Force).
Kierra (K) attended the University of Colorado, Boulder. She was studying racial justice when her sister, Amber, became pregnant at 16. She witnessed her sister drop out of school and not receive support for her further education (Amber was sent to a "mommy school"). K realized that whatever women decide [about pregnancy/abortion] they are judged. This catapulted her into the feminist and choice/body liberation movements.
Having a gay twin brother got B more involved in the HIV/AIDS movement. Recently she found the first speech she delivered on the topic in St. Louis. "I knew somewhere in my body my brother would get HIV," she says. "Living his death with him is one of the most painful and transformative experiences I've had."
B and K discuss the queer movement, asking "how do we love our bodies?" They discuss the danger of desire that occurs because many LGBT people believe the myth that HIV/AIDS is over. The queer movement needs to teach how to live a life of love, passion, and desire out loud, not in silence or fear. At 26:40 they explain that not doing so and seeing yourself as diseased is where internalized homophobia comes from.
B is most proud of a memory from the 1987 March on Washington. Cops were patrolling the streets wearing latex gloves and beating their nightsticks in their hands. A very sick young man started singing "We Are a Gentle, Angry People," and the whole platform joined in. Everyone started signing "I love you" to each other and the cops who stopped tapping their clubs.
What is next? For K it is more intersectional advocacy, thinking about what comes next after marriage [equality].
"How do we construct a 'we'?" For B, LGBT is part of a broader, bigger social justice goal.


  • Beth Zemsky
  • Kierra Johnson

Recording Location

Hilton Atlanta

Venue / Recording Kit

Partnership Type

Fee for Service



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00:05 My name is Kiara Johnson. I'm 36 years old today's date is January 26th, 2013. We're in Atlanta Georgia and our relationship to my partner is a new friend and colleague and a mentor as a new board member.

00:24 My name is Beth zemsky. I am 53 years old. It is January 26th 2013. I'm in Atlanta Georgia the 25th creating change conference in the National gay and lesbian task force and I am proud to sit here with my new friend Kyra who is a new friend and colleague and hopefully we'll be a friend for a long time.

00:50 Beth how did you begin?

00:55 Working in the LGBT movement and how did you come to to find the the task force? That is a very long story and I'll try to make it started coming out in 1977 in Ithaca New York, which was just when I think about it now just a few years after Stonewall. I was 18 years old and had grown up in New York City and I actually remember walking around the village and seeing LGBT people will not then it was just gay men and lesbians holding hands and thinking wow and not quite understanding that was about me so my coming-out story was you do long and maybe we'll get into that later. But when I was in Ithaca in college at Cornell, I start being involved in women's shoes cuz it was really at the that wave of feminism.

01:49 Take Back Tonight a whole bunch of stuff like that and really and thinking about rape and sexual violence and issues 900 you care about about choice in the 70s and really thinking of an enhanced come out and really didn't quite understand yet that there was a movement that was not just at me as a woman but me else was a lesbian and when I move to st. Louis to go to graduate school, it was a whole different environment and it was a lot tougher to be a lesbian in that environment even in the you know, if it was a little bubble in the in the late 70s early 80s and in St. Louis, I began to really understand that there was significant issues about whether I ever could be out in love another woman. And in the meantime, my twin brother had come out.

02:42 Wow, and so even though I was very situated to clean then men and women's communities in terms of the game has become a very very separate for me because I had a twin brother the place I Look to in terms of thinking about the complexity of my identity was really a gay and lesbian Community from the very beginning. So I started doing that activism in St. Louis. I was at one of the founders of I worked on a hotline. I was one of the founders of a community education project to try to start doing work in schools and colleges and with the police force about educating about our lives in in in 1981 1982. And at that point the that there was a gay newspaper in town, but the newspaper that really brought Community News was a thing called gay community news out of Austin.

03:33 And actually on staff at that point was to hide Cindy patents. I think we should burn to who later became the director of the LGBT Center in New York. She was on staff at gay community news. So there I was in St Louis with this new National newspaper and it was Progressive in left. And these were the people who were informing my political Consciousness and felt like I was tied to something National and they later became the leaders in the task force and the leaders of our movement. They were the first folks reported that aids so that was my first interaction with a task force. I think I have to check this but I think I became a member like an 83 or 84

04:27 So that was my initial interaction. Wow, It it's interesting to me because I'm thinking about

04:35 How feminism and LGBT Liberation kind of had these parallel tracks and people from each movement. I feel like kind of find the other movement. I mean, it's it's like either the lgbtq movement was the gateway drug or the feminist movement was the gateway drug and for me, it was interesting. I I didn't come up. I was 21. I at that point we've had already identified as a feminist. What year was it? Oh, wow, that was in.

05:10 How old am I thirsty night 1999 came out in 1999 and I the first person I came out to with my mother. Wow, and before that I was like the Uber Ally that's my trajectory was like I'll volunteer for the LGBT Resource Center. Of course, I'll do office hours. Of course, I'll pass out flyers and then you know

05:40 Uber crash in told my mom and was freaked out and about one minute until she kind of you don't have to Define this. Well, you got plenty of time to figure out who you are and what you need and what you want. What a great response. It was a great response and she was just still act like you have to put a label on this but neutralize my anxiety, but I think at that point to I was I was eager to find a place where I could live my whole self. So my feminist values my commitments racial Justice my new, you know by sexual identity. I was looking for you no movement or movements where I could bring all of those things together and was surprised that there weren't a lot of places that were doing intersection of work even at that time in 99, which

06:34 I know.

06:36 Maybe that's surprising or not. I I just I remember finding it difficult to find a place where all of that work was happening. And I found the task force which to this day does the intersection of work like it and I'm I've always been so thankful that I can I didn't have to check any of my identity that the door like I could be all of Ciara as a black satin or I could be all of Ciara as a feminist Reproductive Rights abortion rights activist. I could be Kiara who you know, love two women and then

07:13 Well, it is Ray said last night or yesterday. We won't leave any any of you behind and I feel like that's what that's what attracted me to the movement into the organization, but it's also has kept me here.

07:28 Yeah, there's a former Executive Drive to carry LaBelle who is the lady when I came on and she used to have it at Twist on that a little bit and I only we not believe any of you behind we're not going to leave any of ourselves behind right? Right, and it's but how do you sort of take all that in? Because when I was in my day job when I first started doing LGBT activism was I was working a rape and sexual abuse center as a psychotherapist just out of graduate school and then words with battered women and to not too hot to be in a place it understood that my female body had you know that in some ways. I was so much more in common with women in general than I time that I was with came in and have a place with that was able not to subsume lesbian undergae which was a struggle in the 70s and to really be able to show up and folks who understood Notions about complications of class and what it really meant to be, you know, first generation to post Holocaust and have all of that be present.

08:29 I agree with you that that's part of what's really special about the task force. It's I work with students on college campuses. And and and my I'm not a professional. Okay. I'm a professional feminist Reproductive Rights activists, but I'm amazed and it continuously amazes people that we work with and we talked about the demographics of who are constituents are in anywhere from 30 to 40% of them identify as lesbian gay bisexual or trans and or transgender and

09:01 I don't know if our Reproductive Rights Movement knows quite what to do with that. And I mean, what does it mean that there's this new point of entry into our work did the people coming in who want to be activist and want to Champion this issue are not necessarily coming in riding the you know, abortion-rights train, even if they support abortion rights are not necessarily personally worried about their own access to abortion or potential need for abortion, but they're coming at it from a values frame from a commitment of to self-determination a commitment to bodily autonomy a commitment to freedom and in creating family the way you want how you want when you want right there. They're coming to to the movement.

09:53 Coming from a very different place. And what does it look like to feel the movement that then welcomes accepts and it involves to meet the needs of this this constituency coming in who sees the issue unless the issue differently and I think that's a really important point because I think for some of us who have come out like you haven't I haven't and had to go through a struggle around who guess it to find my body who gets to find my desire. It's not just about who I have sex with but how do I position my body in the world who gets to decide that and how do I get to have autonomy and Liberation about that? And if I get to have Liberation about my body, how do I really understand? What does it mean if everybody to have body Liberation sexual Liberation and how I make that choice, right? So what brought you to work around choices it was at that kind of value around knowing about sexual and body Liberation or is there some other things that did that for you? You know, I was working on

10:52 Racial justice issues and in college, you know, I was at University of Colorado at Boulder, you know, we were really focused on Recruitment and Retention of students of color first generation students low-income students. And that's another part of the black student Alliance.

11:09 I never really consider myself a feminist at that point. I didn't identify is pro-choice at that point but my sister got pregnant at sixteen and decided to parent and that I mean it rocked my family's world and it was at that point. I watched her get tracked into a mommy school in Florida south Florida. I saw her I saw the education system divest in her she dropped out of school struggled to finish her education to get her GED, but at that point, you know, it was an aha moment that no matter what the choice women and girls make it always is judged and always judged wrong and negatively whether it's you using contraception and someone finds a condom in your purse if you choose to have a baby in your 17 or you choose an abortion and you're 25 future.

12:09 To have a baby and you're not in a heterosexual relationship. I mean, there's so much judgment and that really catapulted me into the movement was that personal family experience and remember being in student government and someone the sky was he was a horrible abortion was and how it should be illegal and I just lit into him. I mean, I just I was just imagine you pissed off all my gosh. I went crazy and it startled me a little I was like,

12:42 So I care about this maybe I should research with this because I mean the passion came from deep down inside and at that point. I knew I wanted to do the working. And again, it was from a broad framework in my point of entry wasn't writing again the I'm a feminist truck in where you know, what organization can I do this work? It was more like

13:09 These issues of racial Justice and education access and the right to parent all these things are connected somehow and they're connected through my family and I'm finding it connecting and tons of who goes to college and who doesn't and

13:27 It matters this liberation of body is at the core of so many of our movements and end in Yan and now I'm addicted and I can't stop eating. So interesting about that story. You just told us like you've been in the movement out long time, right? You've been at your organization, which 14 15 years is a long time to kill you be a leader of a social change organisation, you know, and you know, I think about those of us who her to some degree all lifers cuz I feel like I'm a lifer in the LGBT movement and particularly as part of the creating change family, right? And I think we've talked enough about acts as activists are those really deep personal stories, you know, where you were used to talking about the philosophy of body Liberation and right get what it really means to do racial Justice and we get all intellectual about it. But I think if we just scratch just a little bit of the surface and have these conversations those of us are in it for the long haul there's a deeply

14:27 Personal connection whether it's about ourselves our family and I think we need to step father's I love the storycorps thing idea to share those stories because it's like the life of your sister can't get lost shouldn't get lost in the history of the movement in which were talking about policy or organizing strategies. Can we have to hold those places of like seeing her face, you know being assigned to the mommy school, right? And I know that's part of the motivation for me is that kind of story their personal story the complexity of it mean if the complexities and nuances of our histories can get lost when we don't

15:10 Do more than that, you know talk about The Superficial or the philosophical, you know?

15:18 How we come out and how we parent and you know, the context of of the decisions that we make an the families that we build and it just it paints such a a more complex picture it illustrate so much more about not just who we are and in the end and where we come from but it also helps us think about what the solutions are moving forward, you know, it's not as easy as

15:51 Winning marriage, it's not as easy as winning the legal right to abortion. It's so much more complex than that, but the barriers that we faced, you know in it and it's about family isn't about housing. It's about economic Justice. It's about you know, everyday life are jobs and then reaching, you know attaining

16:15 Are education quality education in and so what was your sister? What's your sister's name? Amber? Amber Johnson Dallas, Texas just for children. Now my amazing niece and nephews was in high school. I can't believe it and and you know, she's she's struggled honestly since then and it's hard it's hard to

16:46 I think it's hard.

16:48 Because even at you know is someone who works with in sexual and reproductive health and rights.

16:54 But we don't quite know how to.

16:58 How the help and how to create a context that supports what comes after the choice. Yeah, what comes after the choice, you know, she struggled with getting her education since then, I mean she's struggled with you know, in Medicaid, you know, getting the financial support to support our children, you know, she's struggled with trying to keep a job, you know, and where the supports you know after that what does that look like?

17:29 So yeah, it's from living at living and doing the work.

17:35 Yeah, they're set that when we're deeply in this work. It's like we're talking about the movement and stuff and then we got home and there we are with our lives and you know, it's funny because we're spending so much time. Do we have time to remember to have that life that were fighting so hard to get so I mentioned that my twin brother earlier and having a gay twin brother really moved me into a gay and lesbian context in the early eighties and part of what that also did for me was in terms of my own life in the age. I am really have the impact of HIV in terms of my movement experience in my personal experience. It's not like that would have happened for you in the late 90s, but it was different but it was different. Yes. It was by that point. I was recently going through some of my notes to Archive them at the University of Minnesota where I worked for a number of years and I found the very first speech I done about HIV and I think it was dated 83 or 84 was in St. Louis in

18:35 First line of the speeches there. Now it confirmed deaths in Missouri from this disease. It seems to be attacking our community. And for the moment that HIV came on the scene and I still have the first gay community news clipping in my file that we talked about. This mystery is gay cancer in the moment came on the scene. I just knew somewhere in my body that my brother was going to get it cuz he was in that age cohort of young gay men in New York City that turned out to be like 75% 0 positive and he did he did contracted HIV God knows when I think it was probably in the late 70s and living his death with him.

19:23 Was one of the most painful and transformative experiences that I had and I was very, you know, the Snippets of memory, right? He was supposed I was at the 87 March on Washington and he was supposed to join me and I remember standing on a phone booth on the mall.

19:42 Calling him cuz he's supposed to supposed to go meet his train and calling him and to see what time the train was coming in and him saying, you know, I woke up. I've got a fever I think it's the flu. I'm not going to be able to come and I turned around to my partner at the time and I just looked at her and I said this isn't the flu and that was the beginning it was that weekend. And so the next morning was the unveiling of the news project the first time and Misty cold 7 in the morning standing there watching the names project and you know those moments when you just has heard of a vision, you know, that is it is it a fear is it a premonition but I just thought there's going to be peace here for him someday and the names project and so he actually recovered from that but a few months later came down with pneumocystis and when I got the call, I wasn't surprised it was idle that I was way.

20:42 For it in a way and that you know radically changed my life.

20:50 Not only did it change my life because now I'm half a twin which is a challenging identity that I had to figure out how to live with in the survivor's guilt of you know, am I living my life? I'm living our life, you know, all that kind of stuff. He died when we were 31, but there was there was that moment those moments in the very late 80s when the gay movement gay and lesbian movement had not figured out the intersectionality pieces yet. It was still largely a white movement. I mean not that's not now, but at least the task force, you know, but there was that those personal moments when the complexity of AIDS brought together the way homophobia.

21:38 Misogyny racism classism and the absolute denial of our existence by the government came together in a way from me personally that had been intellectual before.

21:53 Is intellectually, you know, it's doing anti-racism or intellectually, you know, I was you know talking about I experienced mail coming out experience and trust a body Liberation but then watching these young gay men Steven then who are more men of color their bodies being decimated by assistant who didn't give a shit at all and watching the young doctors and nurses many of whom are LGBT identify dark. We're trying desperately to say folks but not having his to smell ability to do it it really I've been working as a psychotherapist at the mall at that point and mostly in a game in a game has been canceled program. So I was like doing one-on-one healing kind of stuff and what it did for me and I activism on the side but it did for me is a no wait a minute. I need to shift this. You know, I said think I was even a pretty good therapist, but I was just sending folks out there. It was so their bodies back into the sort of trenches of a battle.

22:50 That I couldn't

22:52 You no guarantee. They were going to get abused again that they thought they weren't going to get a hate crime that the system was not going to just run roughshod over I'll eyes so it really not only did it change my personal identity, but it really change the nature of how I did my work. It's in some ways.

23:12 Because you're Talkin at it I found myself saying I wish.

23:19 HIV and AIDS, I wish we were at hyper-aware of HIV/AIDS now as we were in the 80s and some you know in some ways.

23:32 People people are afraid.

23:38 Of

23:40 HIV and AIDS is interesting like theirs.

23:45 There really is this myth that is under control that that it's that we're so close to eradicating it that there's actually I think of less concern and you know, I live in a city where you know, the HIV/AIDS raids new cases.

24:05 Look a lot like some countries in Africa, you know in addition to 50% of black boys dropping out of school in addition to you know, a failing education system overall, and these young people don't have access to good sex ahead which is where the issues you're working on and Chris Duffin. Do you know it's about how do we learn about our bodies? How do we learn about choices? How do we learn about our bodies? How do we love our bodies? How do we love our ability to?

24:44 Decide when and where we enter and how do we not have desire be deadly weather that's about right of illegal abortions or the threat of HIV or the threat of domestic violence. Whatever desire be deadly and how do we celebrate them? I think that's part of the reason it's hard to hang on to the fear of HIV because if you want to have a movement that celebrates passion and desire not just about sex right but that passion and desire to be a life-giving life-enhancing forced to make transformational change cuz you know what? I think I think about our lives as queer people that we have is a gift to give the bridal Society is we know what it's like to make a choice to have passion desire in our life until have we literally transformed our lives and risk losing everything in order to have authentic relationships founded in love passionate desire. And you know, you think about all the things in our in our society that people hold onto and then block them from having authentic relationship.

25:44 And I think that's something the queer movement has to teach it's like what if you just let go of everything that's important and shoes to live a life. That's based on love passion desire. What would the world look like and live it out loud now, I mean, I think that's the piece where it's there's this culture of Silence that still exist.

26:03 You know that you know young people in particular there aren't as many spaces is out. I would like to see where they can live out loud and not fear not live from a place of fear, but they're talking about love and passion and in their bodies and and their challenges in there, you know.

26:25 Desires

26:29 I think that's where a lot of the the internalized.

26:36 B&T how the internalized hurt happens, you know where you know, you're not loving yourself. You're not loving your body. You're not talking about just seeing yourself as disease. Just seeing yourself as disease and it eats you up from the inside out. I think that's what I want let you know in the next 40 years. Like, how do we how do we bust out if you know this culture silence let you know, you know as a movement. We don't talk internalized homophobia that much anymore don't talk that internalizes races. Don't talk about the cost for us growing up in the culture you're talking about and so then we wind up with things like denying the risk of a because it's like, you know, it's like part of the reason I said, it's like the danger of desire, right? We have to blockades out a little bit cuz we want to have the space for

27:36 I think if we allowed ourselves to heal from the wounds of internalized racism or classes are more or homophobia. We'd actually be able to deal better with the external threats that are out there. Right right is a used to teach of this is the second there is a step. I helped found it LGBT studies program at the University of Minnesota and I taught in there that for about seven years and I do the unit on a right we get to talk about social movements in a cage cuz all the social movement Siri blah blah blah. I was in class and for about five years to students it to me. I feel like we missed something. I wish I wish I wish I was living during then during that. It is every time because I feel like we met that was like his energy around act up and then anger and the moment where you can sort of exam and institutional oppression and I just like, you know, I said to take it out in my own way. Oh, honey.

28:29 Yeah, that was a heady powerful time. But no you do not want to live through a time when everybody you knew were dying, but there's just like moments of glorification of that history because I think folks are hungry for a container to do what you're talking about what I think

28:49 There's at least within you know, there's in the sexual Reproductive Rights abortion rights contacts. There's there's almost this.

29:01 You don't understand because you didn't live it. Yeah, you didn't see the back alley abortion. And so in some ways, I think there's an invalidation or judgment. Yeah, that's not what I mean. But yeah, I know, you know validate the new Catalyst for young people who want to do this work, right? It doesn't have to be from this fear base Anchor Bay East place. It can be from a forward-thinking proactive what I want for the future of firming frame and and how do we how do we have highlighted? How do we Spotlight it? And how do we do, you know provide a platform validate that knew that new catalyzing forced. It's bringing new activists into the work. So what has been your proudest and most inspiring moment in doing your work. I

30:01 I think any time at There's an opportunity to do the intersection of work.

30:07 For me when we when we got a group of young white gay men who run a Reproductive Rights chapter in Alabama working on gender-neutral bathrooms and getting lgbt-friendly sex ed if you know in their state for me, I'm like, this is where I belong

30:31 This is cool.

30:34 You know, it's that that when that kind of work happens it makes me.

30:44 I know, you know that I'm reminded why I do the work. I'm reinvigorated. I know and like this is the right path. This is when this is exactly what I want to be doing. I want to be bringing this work together and I want to work with activist who organically see where the connections are. That's where I want to be. I want to be at that intersection and you know anytime I can do that and any time I can elevate it. That's that's when I'm the that's what I'm that's what I'm most proud and that's when I'm most clearly I'm a lifer.

31:21 So for me, that's a great. I mean, I actually have a moment, you know, it's a memory and it's an old memory now, but like when I get really discouraged it's the one I go back to cuz it had elements in it so is back at the 87 March on Washington has a really old man right now, but I really do hold this and it was a really as the day went on it was a really really and it was so self-empowering. You know, I knew my brother was sick. There was all this stuff that March was led by people with AIDS and Whoopi Goldberg pushing wheelchairs. I mean, it was just incredible moment when we really did talk about the intersection in a way even now it's hard to and at the very end of the MARTA temperature was falling and it was really really cold and people there are a ton of people who are very very sick wrapped in blankets and we were all crowded into the metro station by the mall.

32:12 And there were cops standing on the catwalk above the Metro above the train and they were going to legs spread batons in hands. They were wearing gloves. They're wearing yellow Playtex gloves and they would go, you know, they were beating their clubs like this in their hands like being an end there with thousands of people crowded on the subway and there was this young gay man who is real thin you could tell he probably did not have long to live KS all over his body, you know, it wrapped in a blanket with a friend kind of hugging him to keep him warm and I'm going to cry just thinking about this and he just started singing There's a sold Holly Near song that we are a gentle angry people.

32:56 And you know, we were gentle loving people we are singing for our lives and he just started singing and people just became quiet and then everybody in the platform started singing that we are gentle angry people were a gentle loving people were singing for life and we're in the Metro station and it is just echoing and the cops just stop banging there were times. I didn't know what to do with this and now there's thousands of people singing and this is no game and who is about to die tears streaming down his face and then a train comes One Direction and people get on it and you can see they're still singing and they're doing for the deaf sign language for I Love You Through the Windows and we're doing this to the police, you know, we're holding our fingers up in the sign for I love you in in in sign language and everybody's singing and people kept singing on the train and we all of course that off at Dupont Circle.

33:52 And we still singing going up that long escalator in Dupont Circle and then somebody starts, you know, banging the side of the escalator saying gay Subway and so it just like when I'm at most. You know despairing I think about that moment about what it's like to confront power, you know, and to be a community who loves each other and hold each other up when we are most desperate and dying, you know, and the dying wish of the game and to say no we're not about hate we're about love and we're going to do this together those moments most inspiring to me is to go back to my mom and say no and in the reclaim the space with gay Subway KS collateral where there's space for us and space for that kind of pain and we can transform it into something we can do together magical, isn't it?

34:48 That's what I feel like reading change. I feel like you know, there is that moment that was spontaneous at the 87 March on Washington and that we create that a creating change and then in those moments we could actually do the intersection of work that you're talking about. It said same thing. It says same thing that we can really embody.

35:08 So that's my moment.

35:14 So what do you want next? What's your vision not you know for it for the movement for Reproductive Justice for LGBT queer stuff for for care. What do you want next?

35:31 For me it is that forward. It's that forward proactive thinking I I am interested in what after what's after marriage, you know, we're at an interesting time and again coming from a Reproductive Rights background. I'm struck by how similar

35:56 The movement looks when we were about to get abortion rights legal in this country. I can imagine this is the kind of fervor this kind of the excitement the kinds of conversations the kind of you know that the movement was grappling with we're about to win this we are really going to win this and end the end.

36:17 A segment of the movement being sure that they are that our work was done and then another segment of our movement that was like no way this is just the beginning and end in hindsight seeing that we won and 72 and have been fighting for the last 40 years just to hold the status quo. And so when I when I when I apply that to the LGBT movement, it makes me think, you know, will the trajectory be different. We're going to win going to win marriage. I believe it at with the you know time culture is in our favor.

36:57 The Arc of justice and bending and then what right there are segments of people in our movement that are like and then are weird we got it we're good but then there's another segment of our of our Movement Like Us who are so sure it's not that this is just the beginning and so I want for us to already be thinking about what what are the proactive LGBT focused strategies towards non-discrimination for transgender rights for housing equality for you. No job stability. I want it I want

37:36 You know, I want to I want to see us not just be defensive after the win. I want us to catapult after the our marriage when and push, you know 150% for the next proactive strategy.

37:52 And that you know, I I I think they're I think I think what we have is an LGBT movement that we didn't have necessarily as a as an abortion rights movement is that we have another movement to look at and say

38:06 We want to do that. We don't want to do it like that. So I think that I think that could work in our favor. So what I'm thinking about and I love what you're saying and for me at I don't have that much patience, but I don't want to wait till marriage and in part for me I think is that that we've only one four times and I want us to change the question but it's as I really want to think about what are we winning for whom right and I've been started yakking about this year's but I think people are listening to different way. So I'm happy about that involve that me something like the Arc of justice is bending but towards what right and so, you know, we have this goal is same-sex marriage and when I've been asking activist for the last 10 years as I've been doing my stick like, okay. What is it? We want when we say we want marriage and would people even yesterday. They said well we want to access to a bucket of benefits.

39:06 Rights and N we want our families validated and recognizing legitimizing and then you know, I stay to them great and we haven't created a policy objectives that is same-sex marriage. If we stop before we do that and not just think that the intersection of identities but how we cut the in our issues. We just stop and say who else might benefit from those things. How do we construct a we how do we really think intersection lease? If we say we want access to benefits we want our families validated which families is it only people who are same sex oriented who possibly could have sex with each other that we actually are, you know, who else would benefit and then you know, you ask people that and they say well Court immigrant family right older people. That's right, you know grandparents raising children and I say, okay then what would it look like for us to have a social policy to put forth a policy agenda that recognizes the things we want as LGBT people that recognize that the Wii is bigger.

40:06 Talk about intersectionality and Reese Center LGBT identity, but we know LGBT folks are part of a progressive Community where all of us could benefits as not to whitewash and leave literally why I watch and read out queerness, of course, but how do we stay centered in our needs are and there's such energy in the queer movement right now and what would it mean to really queer the issue and say families matter All Families matter and how do we construct a movement that gets access for that gay social justice. There's a progressivism and what does it mean if she said this a couple years ago in the future or we going to be the the LGBT Progressive Movement? Are we going to be the LGBT wing of the Progressive Movement? Where are we going? You know, where do we situate ourselves? And I want to be the LGBT part of a broad Progressive.

41:06 Not just an LGBT Progressive Movement the ass which means not losing who we are but being in a really big contacts, so I think we can do that together. Oh, yeah. We're on our way. And I mean you and me not just all of us. I just have a feeling you and I are going to we're going to do some good stuff together. I think so, too.

41:28 Foreshadowing about a time. I know I wish I could talk to her.