Clifford Chandler and Lucy Yates

00:08 My name is Lucy Yates. I'm 14 years old. Today is May 2nd 2014 and we are at the Decatur rec center in Decatur. I meant Mr. Chandler through of an organization that my school.

00:28 Took pardon to learn more about history in the community.

00:34 My name is Cliff Chandler. I am 75 years of age.

00:40 Today is May 2nd. 2014. We are at Decatur Recreation Center and it is my pleasure to be interviewed by a lovely young person from Renfro a former school by where I was principal and I'm very very pleased to do this.

01:04 When you were a teacher, how was Decatur High School different from Trinity High School according to your experiences?

01:17 When I first started teaching you the schools were still segregated, which means by my being black. I was teaching at the segregated black school, which was Trinity High School.

01:35 I at that time.

01:38 We had a superintendent by the name of Carl G renfroe.

01:44 Who is very instrumental in?

01:47 Determine the in the direction that Decatur schools would go

01:55 And as a result of being up being prompted and Kajol and whatever.

02:03 The decision was made to integrate the schools.

02:08 The by doing that Trinity the black school

02:15 Stop

02:17 Stop being used as a school and all the kids. Who were

02:24 Actually attending the school and at Trinity were moved to Decatur High School.

02:32 They actually preceded some of the teachers.

02:39 We had probably 35 to 40 teachers all together at Trinity.

02:47 All that number 443 teachers and a counselor

02:53 Was moved to Decatur High School. Now, how is it different? It was different in that.

03:03 In prior to that this time each school with separate and distinct.

03:10 And as a result of the integration all people regardless of their race were in the same building and of course.

03:21 The objective was basically the same so it was different but it was a good different Decatur I think was very very

03:34 It was very very good at trying to innovate and to bring forward things. That would be beneficial not only to the school system, but to the the city of Decatur and of course the state of Georgia really old country. So integration is good. It did allow for people of various Persuasions to come in contact and realize it has me really not very much difference between people regardless of whatever they are.

04:08 Do you think most people found that realization when they were at that school?

04:16 I'm not quite sure because the main reason why I say that is this.

04:23 As I indicated previously at Trinity that were probably around 35 to 40 teachers all total off that number only three teachers and a counselor went to Decatur High School the rest of the teachers wherever I don't know the three principal at the at Trinity. My understanding was not offered.

04:54 A the opportunity of moving wherever

05:00 So ultimately he ended up retiring it was his name was AJ Martin.

05:06 And he was actually my principal when I was in high school. He was my friends book one of my principles I should say because I did have another one by the name of Charles Clayton who was the principal when I was in elementary school up through the time that we actually entered the new school Trinity.

05:30 Why do you think that you were chosen? So I would hope that it was because

05:42 I might have been a good teacher. I would hope but nobody's ever telling me that but I that is what I would think.

05:55 When I went off to college from leaving Trinity, I had no idea that I would even remotely consider being a teacher I had that was a farthest Lane.

06:05 From my mind

06:08 Going back to AJ Martin who was a set my principal. He called me one day he knew I hadn't had finished College.

06:18 He called and said I need you to come to see me for a few minutes. I need to talk with you. I had no idea why it was called me because I said I had no idea about being a teacher or anything like that. She called me and said that his science teacher Robert Steele.

06:41 Had to resign abruptly to go to work for

06:45 I think it was Albany State College. It might have been in University, but it was a skill as a college in Georgia, and it was about 3 of 3 to 5 days before the beginning of the school year.

07:00 And

07:01 Cuz mr. Martin was without a science teacher at that point.

07:07 So he asked if I was coming again, I didn't know this until we talked about it that you know, I need somebody to help me out at this point. I was really trying to accumulate enough money to go off to medical school, which I and that's the main reason why I had going to Morehouse.

07:28 And I said well, do you know this give me a list of accumulate a little more money, which I did.

07:35 But then he grew from there and I worked at the ER and I said well, maybe I'll have a little bit more the next year and that's really on my career started as for teaching his concern. I have enjoyed immensely.

07:50 You know teaching by Farah was actually my calling I believe.

07:56 Cuz I enjoyed the the experience but going back to your original question. Why was I chosen? I can't tell you I can only speculate.

08:09 What were your own thoughts as well as your students and your colleagues at Trinity of integrating with Decatur?

08:18 What it was It was kind of an Abrupt thing.

08:24 I'm not a whole lot of time was not given to doing this in fact.

08:30 The decision was made to integrate the schools on a Friday.

08:38 And the superintendent apparently and was not involved in the decision-making but the superintendent apparently had decided by way of the border and whoever else was involved in that to close down Beacon or Trinity.

09:00 And by that Monday

09:04 Cuz it's being a Friday by that Monday having all of the school all the students in their new schools over the weekend. They knew nothing about it. The teachers didn't know anything about it, but it was done very quickly and it properly

09:23 This was at the beginning of this school year.

09:33 But but it was done very effectively in.

09:39 I think the caterer is better as a result of it. Do you think that Decatur integrated before other schools in the area? I am I in fact, I always gloat about this side.

09:55 When I became principal of renfroe Middle School

10:00 I was the first black principal of an integrated school in the state of Georgia.

10:07 Now that works Sandro assistant principals at various schools, but it's for is the actual principal chip. I was the first in the state of Georgia and I've been to perhaps even in this in the Southeast but definitely in the in the in the state of, Georgia.

10:28 And I felt a little padding onto my back.

10:39 Okay.

10:43 Okay.

10:45 I started teaching in 1962.

10:55 Be as I said, you know the story I told you about how I that that happened but the integration itself start occurred in 1967 1967. So during that 62 to 65, I'm 67. Of time. I was at Trinity.

11:18 My teaching

11:29 Yes.

11:32 Well

11:35 I am told that several that most of the books that we had at Trinity.

11:43 Some of them were bought new but a large number of I was told we're really I transferred from Decatur High School to Trinity.

11:55 I can't really prove this but this is what I was told but you know.

12:01 I just didn't know any any anymore or any better so

12:07 I thought I got a fairly decent education because you know, I did get a full scholarship to Morehouse and when I did go to school Decatur so and that the black school the trinity.

12:25 Do you think that the black schools in other communities were different then Trinity?

12:36 Was very reluctant to integrate.

12:43 As I indicated earlier

12:46 Decatur had some Visionaries and I say again that a large amount of this in my opinion was not necessarily voluntary. It was kind of.

12:59 This is Elizabeth Wilson who was an active person in our community was very very instrumental.

13:09 In pushing and causing integration to take place as quickly as it did in Decatur. She did try several times to get the superintendent to

13:25 Even had a great the summer schools where you know the kids from Decatur High School and kids from Trinity could go to school during the summer at Decatur High School cuz they said there was a summer program indicated at Decatur High School, but not a trinity.

13:44 And for several years the superintendent was very very reluctant to do this and would not allow this to take place. So going back to your question.

13:56 Decatur being small

14:00 In size and population

14:04 I think a lot for a lot of things to take place that might not have happened had it not been had it been a larger school system or largest city. Sure. I think Decatur was Innovative and determined to do some things once they realize that integration was going to be inevitable.

14:27 That they felt this was something that maybe we can take the leadership there and move out front regarding it. That's again. I can't support this with anything except my in an internal feelings.

14:42 Did Renfro I mean that run for the Decatur schools integrate before it became forceful?

14:54 As I said in 1967 was when it real when when

15:01 I moved to Decatur High School.

15:05 Proud of that time we had no real contact.

15:10 With people of any other racial identity the thing that I do remember you as a little boy

15:19 At one time I lived along all the street which of these Street.

15:25 That's on the westside of Decatur High School.

15:32 I would see the Decatur High School football team play but during that time. We could not go to their games and we could we could go along and collect ourselves alone Oliver Street at the fence and watch the game, but we would watch the game and say, you know, this is it man. That sounds good.

16:01 We were good glad to be there now Trinity did play their games.

16:07 On the same field

16:10 But we couldn't play on Fridays are usually reserved for Decatur High School. I'll games have to be played on days outside from Friday's usually and usually Thursday and

16:26 Evan said we played on the same field, but we can didn't play at the same time.

16:32 Can you describe to me your first day or your first year at Decatur High School? I didn't know what to expect.

16:46 But one of the things that was always

16:50 Just pretty much.

16:54 Something that this was in still and I especially at Morehouse was to be prepared and who knows what's going to happen Benjamin e Mays was my president of the Moore house when I was saying cuz you have no idea what that is, but I'm glad he would always we were that we would have a Chapel Services on Tuesdays. And of course you had to go through didn't matter what you had planned. Otherwise, you have to be went to Chapel every Tuesday at 9 and during that time this was a time when

17:40 Every week the president of the college Benjamin Mays with stress the importance of getting a decent education and being prepared for the future. So

17:56 Again going back

18:00 It's hard to to do a lot of

18:05 Make it very many statements regarding and discuss it so much of it as speculative. You you I would begin think that the cater was what was the term of the innovate and be out front. But again, I don't think it was necessarily by choice. I think the circumstances pretty much required this are dictators in

18:34 What was a memorable experience with a white student or colleague treating you fairly or unfairly?

18:42 Well again, you know by me being a teacher I didn't have

18:46 Overt

18:49 Problems

18:51 If there were then of course, I would probably be the last to know cuz nobody ever said anything to me that they are out of the ordinary. In fact, the thing that I remember the first year that I taught at Decatur High School is that

19:11 Pretty much all of the kids and except for one class all the kids that I taught at Decatur High School were basically the same kids. I had to order Trinity except for one class and other

19:24 It was integrated but not truly integrated because again, you know, I basically had all the black kids that I was teaching at Decatur High School, except that one year.

19:39 I'm a Fix-A-Flat one class now the second year and I can't really say why that happened but

19:47 I had

19:49 More than one class.

19:53 Havana grade a kiss

19:55 And

19:57 I am not sure except that perhaps this had to do with maybe I prove myself.

20:05 And being a fairly decent teacher.

20:09 That first year

20:11 Because the 30-year I had even more integrated classes and

20:19 The fourth year was when I became teacher of the year.

20:24 Add Decatur High School and my android into Statewide, is competent capitation and and was really they second.

20:35 Was that your place second is for a teacher of the year is concerned at Statewide level so I can

20:43 Decatur boy doing well, hopefully.

20:55 The teacher award that you received.

20:59 I was told that that were quite a few people that were some people I shouldn't say quite a few that words when people that work a little resentful of anybody that would like to be considered the best of whatever you doing, you know the best marble shooter or whatever, you know, if you're the best you're the best and teacher of the year honors in my opinion.

21:24 Make me think that perhaps I was one if not leave as

21:29 Teacher at that time

21:38 I think didn't the initial innominate singer who came from the department head which was Butch Lee. He was the department head of Science of the Sun and then it had to go be approved by.

21:54 The principal of the school

21:59 And of course the ultimately the superintendent and the Board of Education

22:10 How it will hide happen is it it just happened. I didn't had nothing to do with it happening. But I was just glad it did happen.

22:25 Yeah, I did. I did do that. But I think ultimately that might have been one of the reasons why the superintendent this time Carl wintrow call me in and said I want to go out and get become certified in administration. So perhaps that has something to do with it and as it was after

22:50 Becoming certified as an administrator. I then was appointed to be to become principal of a school that was located in the Oakhurst Presbyterian Church.

23:03 It was a makeshift kind of thing, but they had an educational Wing in the Oakhurst Presbyterian church and

23:14 During that time that Oakhurst Fifth Avenue area was exploding in population. Just such a large number of youngsters.

23:27 And

23:29 The 4th and 5th graders that were in that area.

23:34 Ended up going coming to it being assigned to the Oakhurst Presbyterian Wing, which was called 2nd Avenue Elementary School. That's what it was called. And again going back to what I was saying a few minutes ago, perhaps, you know doctor info at that time. We was not doctor. It was was determined. We had found what he thought I guess was leadership qualities or something that might be beneficial as far as becoming a principal and I talk I was principal there one year.

24:15 And that was in 1971.

24:18 In 1972 as a first-year by the way in 71, he also called me and said, you know, I got something else I want you to do it. I want you to become principal of the new school, which has not been completed at that point. They were they were in the process of completing renfroe middle school, but it had not been so that first year. I was the principal at 2nd Avenue School. I also had to serve as the incoming principal of the middle of the new middle school and

24:55 That was an interesting Theory its friends are being a whiner first-year principal and trying to be principal of two different structures was interesting. Anybody. We have managed. It was another gentleman that ended up coming along with it with me after I assistant principal Mike Mears Mike Mears. Was it later a mere and the fact he was the mayor of Decatur prior to mrs. Wilson becoming mayor and I think he was probably instrumental and you know working that through but he was the assistant principal where I was as principal of the school, but we spent that summer between 71 and 72 getting ready to open the new school and that means hiring teachers that mean getting

25:47 Furniture you can get me the MIT.

25:52 You know being prepared and we did open on time and you're now a part of it. So apparently Lucy it is still working over there. I did drive by as an indicated to you earlier and I saw a large number of wings and structures on that campus. Now that was not there when I was principal in. I know I think one of the young ladies asked about the gym, but when I was there, there was no Jen.

26:22 We had a whatever meeting two that took place would take place in the cafeteria. I think the cafeteria still there, hopefully.

26:35 Would you say that by the time you were principal of Renfro that it was fully integrated?

26:50 When you are a trinity student, how is Decatur High School different from Trinity according to what you observed really knowing that accept just looking at it. I just knew that, you know a guy should just it was just so many more things.

27:12 That I saw

27:15 That we didn't have at Trinity Trinity was in fact, there is a structure that we had a gym which we call the matchbox.

27:30 Because it was so small you when you play when you play basketball.

27:37 If you ran

27:40 Too far too much further beyond the goal. You would end up on the stage because the game that was such a small structure. So going back to the question you're asking.

27:54 There were just so many more opportunities in so many more things at the cater.

28:02 As compared to Renfro and I'm sorry as compared to Trinity and

28:10 Yeah.

28:20 Talked about hot young people about society and the reason for the second when you grew up under segregation woman.

28:40 Well being black you were taught, you know, you did certain things and you did not do certain things. I can remember.

28:50 Lucy I think I told you that

28:53 Oh the Martyr is in existence. Now when I was a little boy murder was not in existence and I'll talk about a little bit more about that in a minute or two, but in order to go to downtown, Atlanta.

29:07 If you would going to use public transit if you had to go walk past my house, which I had moved from the projects to Atlanta Avenue in Atlanta Avenue wood would if you walked 12th and Northwest part usually end up on Howard Street and Howard Street is the street. That's next to Decatur High School in front of your school is Howard Street on the other side. Do I put the buses would run along there and we would you would end up with walking through the white community.

29:52 But you had to be sure that you know, you had a purpose there if you were not.

30:00 Going somewhere at specific or going to work for someone in the white area. You just didn't do it. You did it you suffered a possibility of being arrested or whatever else.

30:23 Yeah, yeah.

30:34 Survive how to survive at UC during that and you were taught from day one when you started learning that you didn't do certain things when I was a little boy. There is no way that I could have been able to sit in at a table next to you Lucy. There is no way.

31:01 If I had who knows what might have happened to me nothing to you, but who knows what would have happened?

31:11 What were the social parameters between you and your fellow Trinity students student pairs with Decatur High student?

31:21 Well again, as a said Decatur was so small when I lived on Atlantic Avenue.

31:29 One of my closest Little Friends when I was young growing up was a white family that lived across the street diagonally across the street that we lived at the the last house where black people could live on Atlantic Avenue and from my house going towards the bus at a bus. Stop that I was telling about that wasn't quite area but diagonal across that was a white family who had children about the same age as me.

32:03 And we knew we were very very young. You know, I said maybe seven eight nine 10 years of age we play together.

32:14 Their parents and had no problems with it.

32:18 At that time my parents apparently had no problem with it. If they did they didn't tell me anything about it, but after we got closer to middle school age.

32:29 And high school age

32:33 It was obvious that that playing together was going but had come to a complete stop.

32:44 The the family. I was talking about one of the father was a educator police the police officer.

32:54 And

32:56 You just knew not to do certain things. I can remember in church.

33:05 We were just in steel then, you know, you don't rock the boat this kind of thing cuz if you do you might end up dead.

33:16 And of course nobody wants to be.

33:26 Influential and outstanding in your years in Decatur schools

33:33 Probably the most influential person that I can recall.

33:39 Was a lady named Alba Austin, who is the lady that was saying you were much are either with three?

33:47 Teachers that moved to Decatur High School and a counselor Alba Austin was my cancel also at Trinity.

33:56 And go see you then then ended up moving.

34:00 You know once I finish High School and came back, she was still there and served as cancel out of Trinity.

34:09 And she then was moved along with the other three of us by Blakeney Julian Ralph. And I those were the three teachers an hour or a l v a awesome is the counselor. But as a said she was probably the most instrumental in helping.

34:31 Meme with directions in my life. So this week so she did and that's probably the reason why she ended up being

34:46 Lucy hasn't asked you yet that you want to be sure to talk about or that you want.

34:54 About your time

35:00 Well

35:02 And the thing I guess that I might want to make sure that

35:07 I think that the one of the main reasons why Decatur was able to do the things they were able to do was again as I said earlier the fact that it's a small City in close proximity to the city of Atlanta, but still separate enough that you could pretty much.

35:29 Decide what you wanted to do within your expense confines of the small area that we're talkin about.

35:40 It's in my opinion the main one of the main reasons why I feel that Decatur is Sochi a

35:48 Ideal setting even now Decatur it at least I don't know that you know of but there are so many people that are trying right now to move in to Decatur because of the Innovative Miss of Decatur and Decatur has always as far as I can see been in the Forefront as far as trying to educate their young people and getting them prepare. So perhaps to a degree one of the reason why I was whatever success I had was as a result of the kind of help that I was able to get into Canada catering schools and

36:31 Of course. I am very very pleased. That was my career indicator. I

36:39 When was principal and school and I was like staff development director. I had several positions once I left the principal and I went to the soup and in the staff, but again, I think all of those had to do with the basic preparedness that started way back when I was a little boy at Haring Street school then Beacon school and I think I told you about those Lucy and Trinity Harry Street was an interesting.

37:15 Structure but as I said, you know that was torn down so that the new that Trinity could be built.

37:25 And

37:27 My descending is almost all of that is now has now been 200 200 way for the new city government area was there for dance class? Okay. Okay. Okay. I seen some of the inside is great. Great. Great. You are in another example as to why Decatur is good. You know, you're very very good at what you doing this morning, and I do want to congratulate you.

38:01 Thank you.