Suzanne Greif and Daniel Enger

00:01 Good afternoon. My name is Daniel enger. I'm 55 years old.

00:08 Today is October 15th 2017.

00:12 And I am in rural Athens County in Appalachian, Ohio, and I'm here with my new friend Suzanne. Good afternoon.

00:23 My name is Suzanne greif. I'm 54. It's October 15th 2017. I'm here and Athens County, Ohio.

00:40 Suzanne a thank you. I'm really grateful to have this chance to talk with you.

00:44 You live in a beautiful place surrounded by beautiful countryside. I see rabbits here in the living room and dogs understand that you had a big rabbit Festival very recently. I look forward to hearing more about that. But I please like to start with a really big question namely so then can you please tell me the story of your life from the time you were a little girl up to the present day.

01:10 Let me see. Well 1963. I was born in Evanston Hospital in Evanston, Illinois. We first lived in Evanston McKenna moved around the North Shore. I essentially grew up in and Kenilworth the most of my life which is where my father grew up with his brother for a good portion of their lives as well. I went to a large High School, which is a public high school Nutrisse when I was at that school, my my major Focus was Art. That's what I like to do. I was not a good student. I did not get good grades studying in school was something that was always hard for me. I had a home situation that was probably considered more distracting something they understand more these days.

02:10 Then they did back then back. Then kids like me were just me. No bad kids bad students, but we need I had divorced parents. My mother had mental illness and it did things to get kind of volatile and it was it was just a stressful situation. I was just more focused on what was going on in my family than School most of the time or I had very severe anxiety and it made me hard just made it hard to sit down and do projects because before I even started I was always already terrified and I still get some of that today.

02:50 I see it when I was 16 I ran away from home was largely because home life was just a little.

02:59 It was really it was just hard for me to come and have a hard time pinpointing that she fixing to buy about I ended up living in Florida with my aunt and uncle for a year and I went to the University School of Nova University which was an experimental school that time it had open classrooms and it was much more informal than what I was used to but suddenly I was getting good grades. I was interested in English class. I I read I took a lot of time to do my artwork my aunt and uncle and everybody they were very supportive of that under the circumstances. I know it was hard for them to have a kid like me just start of fall into their household for a year because I wasn't family-oriented. I didn't know what it was like to live in a family where you had a mom and dad kids.

03:59 And things were relatively normal. I mean it was a family with with all the things that they have going on. But for the most part it was very different from what I had at home and I thought I know it was hard for everyone. So I really I really appreciate what they were able to do over that year, but I returned back to school and make my grade cell again at the school. I was at but I did manage to design the logo for the school which was and I feel like an old football player whose reliving their there used but it was the one big thing. I did in high school and it's it's the logo for the high school and it still is to this day and I think it's one of those things that kind of got me started in the direction of looking at graphic design.

04:47 And when I went on I went to the Coe College a small private college in Iowa Cedar Rapids, Iowa, and I was there for two years and I largely majored in art as well. But I I didn't do really well in school because my priorities were to party I was cutting one of those kids suddenly is sprung free from certain situations and I really like to drink my senior year in high school. I kind of started to feel like getting into it. I'm sure some of my classmates remember I've heard comments from a few. Anyways, I tried to get through those two years there, but I I stopped out I thought I was just going to be out for a year and and go back and return it was hard being away cuz I knew my friends were there doing all the stuff that they were doing in school and I was back just working. I got a job in a vitamin store in Evanston.

05:47 And I had an apartment but my boyfriend at that time he graduated and he was in the Marine Corps and we still try to see each other and I would go out into the birthday ball and things like that out out of you and I ended up getting pregnant and we decided the best thing to do was to get married, you know didn't believe in abortion then and I wanted wanted this child very much and and September that year. My daughter was born. She's 33 now Elizabeth and I'm very proud of everything. She's done with her life, of course, but we were we were set on it a difficult course at that point.

06:37 When I went during that time. I did have some postpartum depression issues. I did not drink while I was pregnant and I didn't really drink when I was nursing. But as soon as I I could all the above I went I went back to my drinking and I hit it harder than than how it was before that life was kind of hard because we were away from family and friends and we were getting moved around so you didn't really have time to form a good support system. I really admire people trying and trying to live a military life cuz it was hard and it wasn't something I was ever exposed to growing up. So it was with new territory, but I

07:27 Had never seen people recover from from drinking. I really didn't know what alcoholism was. I never seen anybody recover from illness and I just assumed I'm an artist. This is just my lot in life to be you know, a heavy drinker and a little a little crazy. That's you know, I'm just eccentric. I'm a creative person that's my life. But I grew up around that to a degree and it it it was hard and you know, my parents are divorced and some of the stuff wasn't what I wanted for my daughter. I mean besides you know that it's sort of a 50-50 Story part of it, you know being the alcohol like I wanted to pursue my career of drinking the other part is that I didn't want my daughter having the same life that I had. I really wanted her to grow up in a normal family would I thought was a norm

08:27 Family with the mom and dad and not being mean a torn between two parents, you know having to spend weekends down at one parent's house while your friends back home are doing a major part of their socializing with each other you're missing out on that. I'm the other thing is holidays and other things like that and whatever parent you're not with you feel guilty you miss them and there's always that he had the pairing of you get a little older and certain weekends. You want to stay home with your friends and you you decide to but you leave that other parent, you know, and the other location and you feel guilty. So it's a lot of hard decisions that children really shouldn't have to deal with but you know more and more kids do these days and very hard it really really tears that your your fiber but I wouldn't Elizabeth was 18 month old I left.

09:24 I remember that day very clearly, you know, I dropped her off at her her daycare. I went home and loaded up my car and we had an electric garage door and I put the key on the kitchen counter.

09:41 Open the garage door and back my car out and reached under and hit that button to close the garage door, and that was it.

09:48 I was on the road with about $100 in my pocket and I was thinking I would head out to California and catch up with some of my other friends that I hung out with and we lived in Jacksonville North Carolina to stop at 2nd and go back to that. It was more Camp Lejeune is paste and Military town like that only has a few things there and that's bar strip joints 1-mile fast food used car dealers and car dealers. I worked in that mall in it in a record store and that suited my life really really good. I could pursue my career of drinking but you know, I'd go into work midday get off at 8:09 or something at night and then go out and party with my friend sleep while and go back to school and I mean back to work and that was my cycle. So that that tore me further away from my my

10:48 What's the name of my daughter to I just I just fell deeper and deeper into this world. I was kind of kind of a punk rocker of my friends were there were things going on and in the circles that part I'm necessarily up enough. We partied hard there were drugs things like that. So that that was kind of part of what led up to my leaving simply put. So anyways, I took off in that car headed to California. I only made it as far as Columbus, Ohio, and that that was kind of the end of the road and some some friends of my friend that I was traveling with offered to let us stay in their trailer down in Grove City, and we started we started crash there for a while and start to look for jobs and things and eventually got an apartment up in South Campus of Ohio State University up in Columbus.

11:47 And just I just started working with the temp agency. I told them that I wanted to work like a marketing public relations areas cuz I just thought I'll start as a secretary. I'll work my way up. I want to be a graphic designer someday. I ended up getting my first job at a public relations firm downtown that that worked with the government and the city travel and tourism in the city of Athens. I got a chance to be exposed to a lot of people and what was what was going on in the business there and they were doing some really exciting thing. I was the receptionist and I sat out in the lobby and some days that I think it was a leopard walked up to the desk one time or another day of robot came off the elevator. I came up. I mean it was exciting. You never knew what was going to happen and eventually I the human resources person.

12:47 Me to a friend of hers who had a a video Multi Image house in the short North and I I got that job there and I was going to be a girl Friday receptionist all the above. It's a small small business. So everybody wears multiple hats there now the short North back in those days was still pretty rough part of town. There were still dancers in the window Windows of one of the places down there and there wasn't what there is now it was maybe the early days that they Gallery hop, which is when all sorts of art art studios and places like that started opening up and now it's the big Arts area but

13:33 Back, then it wasn't so I started working at this video production house. Then I got a chance to be closer to people that were actually doing the photography and the design work and the writing and it was it was pretty intimate. It was a small office and I got to got to do a little more than just be a receptionist in a girl Friday there a lot more responsibility is it was interesting and I really enjoyed doing that work but I met someone who was to become my best friend. She still is and she was she was in industrial design and she was doing Visual Communications work. There is a designer. I'm working on the computers in this is the early age of design being a done on computer. At first we didn't like each other and the person who tastes people down the creatives and tried to get their hours from them and other things. I don't know. We just we just did

14:33 Hit it off, but we ran into each other one day and it's mine and a grocery store. I don't remember what we said to each other or whatever. But after that we became very good friends and she became sort of my mentor and I are going through industrial design. I got myself into accepted to OSU and into the industrial design program and it's a it's a very difficult major very time-consuming very expensive and very demanding, but it with her mentorship she, you know gave me a lot of directions and what to do and what not to do.

15:12 And she helped me a lot and you know, one of the professors I got very close to it was very influential and he kind of paved the way for me to get one of the four internships that they had in our class which was in turning over in Zurich Switzerland at a design agency over there and coming from the background. I did a kid who you know, probably ran a 1.85 grade point average, if you know my opinion of myself as far as being a student was not very high and and achieving something like getting this internship with something that just was never even never even part of my my story when I would think things out that I went over whenever to Zurich never thought I would travel overseas but it was you know that they paid the expenses to go over there. I'm so it was something I was

16:12 Able to do and I'm

16:16 It was an amazing experience definitely all life-altering. I didn't I didn't have German when I went over there. So I was kind of I showed up on a Friday and saw everybody in the office the place where we stayed was near by there and everybody went home for the weekend.

16:35 And there I wasn't there so I just wandered around cuz eventually I was hungry and wanted to have dinner and there wasn't anything and and Department I was staying in so I remember trying to wander into different places that didn't speak English and I don't speak German had some fun. Eventually. I wandered down town. Of course. I found the bar at the center center of town and everybody so a lot of English there and they wanted to speak English. So that would that was great. There was alcohol in English-speaking people and I was happy but I worked really really hard at my internship. I really didn't want the ones that started I really didn't go out or do any stuff like that. Everything was kind of put to the side during during that time.

17:27 But I came back and you know graduation was over and I had to work my friend Linda. She help me get into some jobs. I worked in several places as a freelancer and she kind of paved the way for some of the the work that I did eventually still a really big influence on my life and that area but one day a friend came up to me and rode on the back of our check on some information that I should call down in Athens, Ohio. They were looking for a designer at the University.

18:00 And if I do that's out in the country, you know, I always wanted to be able to get a farm and I think it's like that I guess that's that's cool. I still have that bar check on floating around here somewhere with that information, but about three months later after a lot of interviews in a lot of back and forth between Columbus and Athens, I was offered the job and I I came down here and I took September 1995.

18:28 And I live in an apartment in Athens, and I I work there at the University and it was it was really really interesting very different. I thought it was much more worthwhile than allow the retailer work I was doing and I felt I felt really good about doing this work. So the friend who directed me there was quite right about what they said shortly after that. I did buy a farm down in Meigs County 23 Acres almost immediately got 17 Angora goats. And when I moved out there, I've never lived on a farm before I did go to summer camps that were like that and that's kind of what got me interested starting in second grade. I said, that's what I would do and now I was there but I basically is to feel like I moved out there with a knife a spoon and a fork and a timer for medcenter knowledge of really how to do any of this but I had wonderful neighbors down there and somewhere between pulling my leg half the time and and teaching me what to do.

19:28 Hadn't had good relationships about down there and they just felt like extended family to me. They were wonderful but a few years into my job. I I I just noticed some situations that I wasn't happy with and someone who's kind of stuck on the rules and right and wrong and stuff like that with another activist in another newspaper person decided to blow the whistle on the situation. And is that kind of started to take off and heat up that was that was very intense and it was very scary. But I met some people someone at work and some other people I got me to go to church and when I was talking to them I said, well, you know, I kind of feel like something, you know alcohol becomes between me and God and so an early on in my my early church days I decided to

20:28 The last the alcohol down the drain and start on it with my sobriety there. But then one of my friends said about you know, if that's your situation and it's that hard maybe you need to go to another group and I I did go on to another group that I spent a lot of time with and we're done my sobriety. I I say it started in Earnest at that time. But at this point in time I after 20 some years 20 years. I only have six years of continuous variety. I had a number of relapse has I just had a hard time staying on the beam.

21:05 Can't really say why that was you know, I do I do have bipolar depression. And when I was younger, it was really much more. There's a lot more Mania and and things like that. So sometimes still cycling through those mood swings and I think didn't always help me.

21:27 I can think of a lot of things I would have done differently.

21:32 In dealing with those situations, but it takes years to figure that out in for a lot of people who and going to recovery there from drugs alcohol. Whatever relapse is part of their story. It's it's part of more people story than not though. I had a lot of experience in that and I would say that my relapse says our baby more important to my life. And then the time I stayed sober I learned a lot more about my sober life during as a result of those relapse this because every time afterward she become much more interest active and you really

22:13 I really look at things.

22:17 Everything surrounding that and you get a little further each time, but for some of us, it just takes a lot of tries that hopefully hopefully this is this is one of those times we do we'll just take continuous for a good while God willing and the creek don't rise.

22:36 So anyways, I I ended up leaving that job, but the whole episode was over in 98 and I left that job in 99.

22:50 And I decide to go back to school to graduate school and counselor education at OU.

22:57 And that's the led me to more interesting places in my life things. I hadn't expected. I thought I was going to do mental health counseling and mental health centers around here, but I met a friend who lived in California who worked at Patton State Hospital in San Bernardino, and they they offered to get me an internship out there. I had to do my practicum actually first and give me a place to live while I was doing it and that all fell together and I went out there and spent several months of working at at Patton State Hospital Downstate Hospital to maximum security facility for the criminally insane.

23:43 And that was something I never experienced before but that was pivotal and where it where I went with my counseling work in those early days.

23:57 It was very humbling going into that facility. I definitely walked out of there every single day going there for by the grace of God go I cuz I could see I could see the face of a lot of people I knew in the people that were in there in that.

24:12 It could happen to anybody these these people their stories when I would read the charts on them. Now that wasn't stuff that was premeditated. It was some of it was just like dumb luck.

24:30 I just you know, it could have been any of us. It could have been me just one one decision one thing one second later in a day. Just anything like that. And there you are, you know, someone's dead in front of you. This is people were not criminals per say this, you know, it's dealing with mental illnesses and life can go sideways very quickly when you're dealing with all those things.

25:01 It was a great experience. So I loved working there. I love working with the people there. They were really committed to what they do. I worked in the adap program which is alcohol and drug education program. And that was the people who were getting ready to get out of there. Some of them they're 18 years some, you know, no family left anymore.

25:25 That long not being out in in society outside of the end of the prison or the hospital actually, you know you this you got a lot of catching up to do and you don't have any support most of them would end up in halfway homes and some days. It's all rather sad because you knew that they'd they'd probably be back if they are lucky enough to live on cuz it's halfway homes have an awful lot of drugs and stuff and I'm probably more than you easier than you can get on the streets.

25:58 But I would say we do we do our job. We do what we can to help people, you know figure out how they can how they can stay healthy and well and succeed out there and that's the best we can do is plant some seeds and Hope.

26:13 Hope that that's enough.

26:15 You know somebody did that that for me and somewhere down the line eventually so he'd started growing in my head it took a while but I just have to trust everybody's got their own story and their own path. I don't know what it is. They probably don't know what it is, but they're going to meet multiple people would have multiple situations that are going to affect where they do with their lives. That's out of my hands. So I just now learning to have that kind of acceptance with things. It's probably one of the hardest things because sometimes you just want to grab onto people in you know, Watson safely through there the rest of their life and make sure that they're going to be okay and you don't get to do that when I came back from there is ready for me to do my internship and I was put up to a facility here in Nelsonville where they had

27:14 Young boys who have been charged with felonies. Apparently a lot of people were afraid to go work there, but they thought that it would be suited for me since I had already had this experience. So I went up there and then did my time and I loved it and I love the kids. I was working with they were so special the stories that they had a very compelling and often heartbreaking.

27:45 But you just desperately wanted to just love these kids and and do whatever you could take and plant seeds that that would hopefully help them down the line but some of them, you know, we're from generational.

28:00 Situations that that led them to be where they were

28:07 It was going to be hard as going to be a hard Road for these kids, but you just do what you can you love them while you can.

28:16 And maybe you'll you'll hear back from them someday or hear of them some day and hopefully it will be a good story. Although it wasn't always I did get some some news about one kid that I really really love that and that wasn't a good story.

28:34 And one thing I have to say about me being a recovering person. I I don't have this the right kind of personality to have longevity doing that kind of work. I think I have a hard time shaking some of those things are leaving leaving certain things at work. I really take a lot into myself with those things and and both times I had head injuries or illnesses that I was prescribed pain medication and it didn't just happen once it happened twice and you would think somebody who's even you know beginning to work in that field and getting education and having been in recovery. They'd have more self-awareness about these things, but that doesn't count for anything really when it comes to drugs and alcohol.

29:29 You put a note from even in the same room with some of these things. I'm already on a roll and you're not going to take talk me out of it, and I'm not going to talk myself out of it and everything I learned about for new or got that are accomplished is out the window. That's suddenly becomes my focus and

29:50 You know.

29:52 Protecting that from anybody finding out so I can continue to do it lying whatever it took with the doctors to to continue to get it longer.

30:04 I was really fortunate that I didn't know people who had street drugs and stuff at that time. So luckily it it it stopped at that but I did experience overdoses the second one that happened.

30:20 I was found in an in a cardiac arrest when they arrived and

30:27 They they my breastbone was cracked from them doing CPR. So I had had a concert reminder every time I took a breath.

30:35 Of what happened, but it when I get when I came out of that situation in the hospital, I was on breathing tubes and all that.

30:45 The stuff that was unfortunately too familiar to someone like me. I was angry. I was resentful a lot of people. I was angry to be still be alive after that because

30:58 The life of being caught up in addictions and alcohol is not not something addicts and alcoholics want nobody wants that nobody. Nobody sits. There is a little kid saying when I grow up. This is what I'm going to be I never sat there in college and said, you know when I graduate darn it, I'm going back. I'm going to go back and start drinking hard and heavy and really make a career that

31:25 It wasn't something I wanted so I have for some people, you know, leaving that life almost seems like a welcome and to putting up with that that nightmare that constant constant drawing at you that constant need paddling to to keep up with having things available to you having double lies hiding things from people.

31:50 Is no good on the outside of mail to people that are not not in the situation like you're having fun. Like you're partying like you're irresponsible and you don't care.

32:02 2 degrees somewhere. That's true when the dog is here in New Year doing that but

32:07 The other side that people don't see is that really really hard side of being there and

32:13 You know whenever I whenever I look at people sometimes I see them like other people see them and I get a little angry too. But then I remember I remember the hell that's going on. Just just under the surface all the time. I mean, even when you're sober that you know, that stuff is pulling at you you go into the doctor's office with certain issues and they prescribed you the pain medication. Do I tell them no for big voice is saying just shut up and take that stuff home. Take it home. Don't say anything you you really need. This is how many times you run into it's hard. But after after I came out of it eventually eventually got, you know back on track at my feet back under me. I didn't finish graduate school. I was so close. But so many things happened including stuff like that that I just didn't make it to the end.

33:07 I went on and got registered as a phlebotomist in two classes in medical office management. I tried a lot of things cuz where I live around here, they're there just aren't a lot of job opportunities. So some of us do a lot of different jobs and tile a different things to try to get an income to just simply survive here. It's not easy if you live here you're here because you love living here and not because you're kind of get rich or have an easy life. That's just not how it is. I've been much more fortunate than than a lot of people but if in time for this kind of hard here, but I tried a lot of different things and I messed up a lot of different things. I went on disability in 2002 this day. I'm still on at the system long as this now.

34:01 1 * 17 years later. I've never been able to get off of it and I've gone to the Bureau of Vocational Rehabilitation going back to college try to over and over again. Sometimes it was you know, it was the substance abuse having a collision with that again that derailed me other times severe depression, which the depression has Tangles with that has gotten worse since I've gotten a little older the media doesn't really happen anymore when that depression happens. It's it's extremely disabling. I had a couple years ago a depression that I guess I'm going to guess it was depression. I don't know if it's chronic fatigue. We never really figured out what was wrong and we tried everything but it it took me out for a year. I couldn't take showers. I couldn't cook getting dressed with terrifying. I think I had three items of clothes that I just kind of circulated from day today.

35:01 Cuz if I went into my closet I had panic attacks getting in the shower. I couldn't remember what order to do things so I didn't take showers every week.

35:14 The dogs, you know cooking was too much. So I just ate out of package things. I hate really bad flu. It's just didn't help it didn't help that situation at all. But doctors tried all sorts of medications blood test and we're on the verge of thinking of electric shock therapy because that just wasn't me and it was awful in every day. I just thought God, how long is this going to go on and yeah, I did think about suicide very seriously at times but then I thought you know what?

35:47 Thistle past we've been down these roads before we've been through hellish the to Haitians before some terrifying and yet

35:56 In short time relatively things were fantastic and got better again. They always did. So just hang in one of these days. We're going to come around the corner. We are not have the saying this too shall pass and don't quit before the miracle. It will happen so that you know, there's always that little seed to hold on and then get through that situation. I think it's probably one of the harder things. I've been through in my life because I'm usually pretty and pretty energetic very creative always getting into projects always have a Nano 7 balls in the air not afraid to jump into things if it's something I believe in something. I'm really interested in I just go do it.

36:44 Alex I don't mind jumping off cliffs without a parachute something will catch me sooner or later before I hit the ground and I hit the ground to though I do but eventually I was able to work my way out of that. It's been a couple years now since things were at its worse and I seem to be doing okay energy levels stayed pretty well. My my thinking is getting a little clearer and you don't use your mind and you don't use your body. I mean I sat on the sofa everyday and started a couple cracks in the ceiling in that he know I didn't talk much. I didn't move around and when you stop doing that you kind of have some rehab to go through getting your coordination back getting your words back remembering how to do things that mean simple things you kind of forget after a year of stopping even driving and other things like that or I would drive 35

37:43 Miles never everywhere. I went if that if I could just feel comfortable getting in a car. So there was a lot of stuff too kind of the slowly get comfortable with and eventually enough energy came back and my friend who was who bred rabbits got me interested in and I'm having some rabbits and I was feeling a little more confident about my ability to do things that I took on some rabbits as pets. I knew nothing about them, but part way through that one of my rabbit's broke his back and was paralyzed and I didn't know anything right to do I treated the rabbit as I would have had to talk her one of my goats and I just try to apply that knowledge to the rabbit. I finally met some people online and rabbit groups who recommended a vet to me in Columbus and I made it up there. Unfortunately the rabbit with crashing

38:43 We just we had to put him to sleep when he was up there. But these people really opened my eyes to the world have rabbits. And I know this sounds really crazy. It would sound crazy to me a couple years ago too. But I hate I just I realized that we didn't have enough services for these animals down here really wish you know, as far as thing I find appropriate things in the grocery store when you guys shopping for your pet, you know whole range of it, even though I wearing this of of rabbits as house pets. This was new to me and as I started to walk around it. I met a lot of people who had rabbits for house pets, but for the most part their livestock down here and I'm not saying that in any kind of judgment because life is what it is out here and you know meat is a is a fact and I'm not going to go Pita on people about things I do hope that pee

39:43 Do you think he mainly when it comes to that but on the rest of it?

39:48 We just Live and Let Live that some people show some people raised for livestock. I raise for house rabbits. Then I work with rescue rabbits here and we get them litter trained. We get them spayed neutered and we socialize them and and work with them and try to find them homes, but that's not all we do wedding that I have the background that I do.

40:15 And Recovery in and sort of in counseling. I have an interest in working with people as well. And I very much believe in and the power of animals to to heal and help people and all sorts of situations and one of my friends who I I go to the church as I go to we start talking then they work in a facility have which has his for adults with developmental disabilities. And you know, I mentioned I would love to get some rabbits in some of those places, you know to be fostered for people to work with to develop relationships with but it also expanded our our resources for having more places. We can foster rabbits. Atkins means we can save more rabbit. So it's it's to fold in

41:08 They they like that idea and eventually we were able to implement that idea and we got our first rabbits set up there in Nelsonville at such car. And right now they currently have three rabbits we've had several adopted from them up there.

41:29 We after that we managed to get some rabbits also and echoing connections and Athens, which is the similar they have facility for adults with developmental disabilities and they they Foster needs for rabbits now and so the consumers that both these places help participate in caring for the rabbits, but also they get a chance to go out in the community like wine to the library or going to PetSmart different situations like that to tell people about their rabbits. So it gives them a chance to to go out in the community and interacting and feel good about the work cuz they do with these animals when they're when they're back at that said car echoing connections. They have this relationship with with the animals that can be very therapeutic and we have one person up at sidecar one of the

42:28 I'm consumers up there who is fantastic with rabbits and he is about finished. If not finished doing his registered therapy rabbit Handler course work, which is is really difficult course. We're getting our covers everything from Health to you know, a personal protection when you go into medical facilities behavior of rabbits a wide wide range of stuff. It's not it's not easy and it's a lot of material to cover so it's fantastic. So anyways, we moved on we also have a diversion people doing their Community hours here and diversion program are kids who've gotten in trouble with drinking. I believe it's the first offenders and they come in and do their community service hours working here at the rescue. We work with a wide variety of people here. We do have all you

43:28 Tunes pre-vet different sororities come here. And in the summertime, we have a lot of parents with their kids come in to learn how to the DMV with rabbits. Would it take to have a rabbit as a pet to see if maybe that's what they want to do or just for the kids to have a good thing to volunteer doing for the summer time. So we're realizing the program starting to grow a little by little and we're getting more and more active. We were up it Fun Fest this weekend up in Columbus, which is an amazing event with hundreds of rabbit people rescues on shelters businesses that support rabbits and while at the same time on the same day we were able to have a group of volunteers at Namese walk the walk with Center board member for NAMI. So it was amazing that we've come this far that we could attend two events in one taste. So

44:25 I don't know how the story goes on continuing this directions.