John Juricek and Catherine Bradshaw

00:10 My name is Kathy Bradshaw. I'm 62 today's date is July 8th, 2010. We're in Atlanta Georgia. And my relationship to John is a friend and former Bart board member of caution.

00:29 My name is John jurasek. I'm 72. I can hardly believe it. Today's date is July 8th 2010. I'm in Atlanta.

00:41 And the Kathy and I were co-workers with caution fellow board members and officers.

00:49 And I'm interviewing you today John because of those years of us being involved with caution, which was the group that was organized to prevent the Georgia Department of Transportation for building a freeway through the middle of several Intown neighborhoods. You are very active on the board before I got involved and you also have a relationship through your profession with Emory University and I'd like for you to talk to us today about your involvement in the road fight what your background is and some of the major players that were involved while you were in you were in the road fight.

01:34 All right, let's go.

01:38 Well, if you would tell us first how you got involved.

01:43 Well, I think it was.

01:47 Early 1981

01:53 And I guess it was early 1982 right after the election of Andrew Young as mayor of Atlanta.

02:02 Andrew Young had been President Carter's ambassador to the United Nations and when President Carter Was Defeated for re-election, no presidents had his own man at the United Nations and Andrew Young liked his employer President Carter was out of a job.

02:25 So both came back to Georgia and Andre young ran for mayor of Atlanta and during the campaign the issue of this road came up.

02:39 And is campaigning for office Andrew Young indicated opposition to this road or anything like it that would have

02:49 Need a bench like a freeway through Intown neighborhoods and certain Park areas.

02:56 But once Andrew Young was elected. He very suddenly changed his position. I do nothing about that than fact. I'm not sure. He had announced it before he announced it at a neighborhood gathering at Maryland school.

03:14 And I was there in the audience and was shocked to hear about it because I thought that that road had been.

03:26 Killed once and for all by then Governor Jimmy Carter in 1972, when a commission he appointed declared that the road was unnecessary and shouldn't be built even though a great deal of land that already been cleared for the Road by federal funding and how is his head, you know been torn down and it had been a great political fight in the 1970s. And as Carter is Governor Jimmy Carter brought it to an end and that at that time it was called The Stone Mountain Stone Mountain toll road.

04:04 Which you know began in downtown area and went all the way out to the Stone Mountain.

04:15 Anyway

04:18 I was shocked and a lot of my neighbors were shocked at the mayor's change of position which came right about the same time that they the president's the former president indicated that he was had changed his mind about this road and now with suitable modifications he was willing to promote it. So it seemed to me at the time that a great betrayal was underway that

04:55 Not only had the president's to changed his opinion now that the road might serve his interests.

05:04 And the road might service interest because it would turn out to be very helpful for him and getting his Presidential Library built.

05:14 And Andrew Young had you know publicly condemned this revised version of essentially the same road and now once he was in office, he flip-flopped and came out as one of his main promoters and he would be one of the main promoters of the road there in the next few years while he was still mayor.

05:39 And let you know when the one of the one of our most formidable opponents.

05:45 Anyway, I wasn't the only one that was shocked and appalled and energized by Andrew Young's appearance at this neighborhood meeting and I soon heard about caution and you know volunteered my services just say for the record that the caution means citizens against unnecessary their Affairs in older neighborhoods and caution was formed as a coalition between all of the historic neighborhoods. That would have been bisected by this this road. And I think when you say that you became involved you you are on the board of caution for a number of years both of us as a neighbor and

06:35 I don't know is as a result of your being a professor at Emory or how did that how did that come in?

06:43 Well, I am reconnection had nothing to do with this man for my personal point of view nor did my you know personal interests, you know, I live considerably south of where this road would have gone. It would have affected me for sure though. The whole area would have been affected. But I remember just being and raised by the parents betrayal of public trust and you know throwing myself into this fight.

07:16 Even though it looked like a losing struggle very early because

07:24 It wasn't just ex President Carter in the mayor of Atlanta that we're behind this road the original version Yellowstone Mountain freeway had been devised by the head of the Georgia Department of Transportation Thomas Moreland. And I think he had developed the earliest version of the plan while he was still a graduate student at Georgia Tech.

07:49 Anyway, I wanted became head of Georgia. I'm not sure when that was sometime around 1960.

07:57 All right, he was behind the original fight for the Stone Mountain freeway and it was a bitter lot a personal loss to him because this was sort of his baby. He had designed it and genuinely believe that you know, what landed needed this give him give him his due.

08:28 But

08:30 For many reasons people in the in the affected area had a different view anyway, so the head of the Georgia Department of Transportation is one of the people behind this and that must explain that the Georgia Department of Transportation almost always got its way.

08:48 Due to some earlier scandals involving Road building in the 1930s. The state constitution had been changed in order to change the funding for the road department.

09:04 And instead of the general assembly appropriating funds for road building and maintenance and so on and so on and so in order to avoid political involvement in the Constitution was changed in order to dedicate the gasoline check tax directly to the Department of Transportation. So they never had to go to the to the legislature and ask for money. The money came to them without lifting a finger and it also meant they had no oversight no oversight, you know, what a way to operate mean with money guaranteed and nobody able to stand in your way.

09:44 Well, of course the Georgia Department of Transportation became one of the most powerful and feared agencies in the state of Georgia. Nobody got in their way because you got crushed and you know, they usually got their way inside issues that didn't involve Road up and you know, like land acquisition all politicians in in the states had to take them. Seriously. Anyway, it would usually wasn't difficult for the Department of Transportation the lineup important figures on their side The Winning Side,

10:22 And the Indus Road fight we face not only Georgia that. But we Face the governor of the state Joe Frank Harris preface the the Attorney General of the state Michael Bowers. We Face the head of the Atlanta City Council Marvin Arrington. We've faced the top law firm in the city King & Spalding.

10:52 One of the people who was crucially involved in developing the plan for the

11:01 New revised version of the parkway was Charles curbow vice-president that King & Spalding. Another King & Spalding lawyer was also deeply involved Frank Jones.

11:15 The Atlanta Journal and Constitution fire to steady barrage of editorials promoting the road. It looks like an impossible situation plus the business community and satin plus chairs and head deep pocket and the only politician I can remember that took our side was John Lewis. He wasn't yet. The famous poet was famous, but not yet as a politician. He was running for office the first time and I don't remember exactly when it was but maybe 84

12:02 And I met him at one of our fundraisers and we know talked to him at length that he came to our fundraiser cuz he was already interested. But anyway, he promoted us and gave us assistance later on.

12:18 All the other politicians even if they might have agreed with us that this road was unnecessary and maybe even you know, damaging even if they agreed with red star we should mention Maynard Jackson. He was our friend first time because he served as mayor of Atlanta on either side of Andrew Young and he was our friend and we did get support from 2 to politicians and that help turn the city council around this road under mayor Andrew Young came to a post it under mayor Maynard Jackson, right and that was helpful to us eventually.

13:04 We'll talk to us a little bit about how Amber University was involved in this because I know that there is there was a great interest in Emory. I'm having the ex-president Jimmy Carter be a member of their staff and a distinguished Professor role and that had some impact on Emory's position weather announced or behind the scenes of their position on the road. Could you talk to us a little bit about that and as a faculty member what your involvement was?

13:40 Yes, this was important than you know among the other important figures supporting me, you know, the resuscitation of this one skilled Road was James T Laney who is president of Emory from 1977 to 93. I think.

14:02 And Laney is an important figure in the history of Emory University. Just this past year The Graduate School, which used to be The Graduate School of Emory University was renamed the James T Laney graduate school University Laney Mathers a great deal to Emory University for the same reason that very successful University presidents matter to their institutions. That is he was able to raise a great deal of money.

14:36 And he succeeded in finalizing a great bequest from Robert Woodruff.

14:49 The former is chairman of the board of Coca-Cola.

14:53 Who made in 1978 or 79 or thereabouts the largest private donation ever made to an American University or College of higher education and it was a hundred and five million dollars. I remember it made all the headlines in the news a lot of money big money and all of a sudden Emory University. You know, I'm with all this money was able to start playing a much bigger role and attract a lot more attention. Not only nationwide's but even internationally.

15:30 Money, I'll do that. And so when Jimmy Carter lost the presidency in the fall of 1980 Delaney recognized it as an opportunity for Emory University because Jimmy Carter would most likely be coming back to his home state.

15:51 And Laney devised plan various plans to associate Carter with Emory University. I mean Carter was in a bad fix. He had started out with great toe but expectation.

16:13 In his presidency and wound up having suffered some considerable failures, maybe not his fault. But a lot of people blame them even his best friends were disappointed in the presidency of Jimmy Carter was looking for a way to restore his reputation and he needed a large for him for that. He needed a Presidential Library and Associated institution. That would give him a way of reaching a larger public and restoring his information because he had

16:52 It was a great wounded ego in Atlanta after 1918 at the long to Jimmy Carter. He was looking for Renewal and

17:04 James Delaney was looking to make use of this for benefit of Emory University.

17:12 Tm2 somehow or other recruit Carter into the university as a distinguished professor.

17:21 Which would help help him get that for him to reach a large International audience and Jimmy Carter on the other hand. So the Laney connection as a way of helping him legitimize the resuscitation of this Old Road.

17:41 No, Carter Carter needed a lot of support to do this because he knew there'd be a lot of opposition after all he had killed the road once himself. He'd have to do something to explain that.

17:57 And he knew there be a lot of neighborhood resistance and so he had to have help and they connection with Emory University was very important to him in the beginning and Laney went along with it and made various concessions to help get the Carter Center built. I'm not sure what those concessions were but some funding to help get the thing started maybe some of the maintenance. I'm not sure about that, but there was some help and Carter needed lots of help.

18:33 Know the Presidential Library itself

18:39 What's the stands on one of the most coveted pieces of real estate in the city of Atlanta this was?

18:48 Copenhill a a rise in the in the Midtown that had a wonderful view of downtown and it was part of the area that had been cleared for this earlier version of the road. So it was ready for development.

19:07 And legally The Carter Library

19:13 If it was built according to the new proposal would be inside of the lanes of the so-called Presidential Parkway.

19:25 And

19:28 It would be on.

19:31 State lands

19:33 That formerly in legal terms was a roadside Park.

19:40 And with that sort of legal understanding it was possible to get a very nice Presidential Library built and not have to worry too much about the maintenance because as a roads outside Park the state would take care of all that without having to pay anything for the land. And so this is a very complicated scheme to get the Presidential Parkway through and Carter needed all kinds of help and obviously all the high rollers in the city of Atlanta are nearly all of them signed up.

20:19 And they expected to steamroll this thing through and

20:26 Despite the certain opposition.

20:30 Well, they got a lot more opposition than they counted on and it came from the neighborhoods which joined together in this Coalition of neighborhood groups called caution.

20:43 And your son

20:47 As a member of the Emory faculty welcome to Carter become coming to the university is a distinguished professor.

20:58 Which is mostly an honorary thing, he's still a distinguished professor at Emory. But what that means is basically shows up a couple times a year and gives a talk and that's about it.

21:13 And it took a while to to figure out that you know, the Emory University was part of this combination to bring about a new version of an old road.

21:28 An old unneeded and terribly damaging Road.

21:33 The big the big damage was to the park system.

21:39 The the Olmstead parks along Ponce de Leon Boulevard, you know, the the great scenic drive through the Druid Hills neighborhood. The parkway would have demolished that they would have created the freeway a limited-access freeway. It would have divided the neighborhoods one side.

22:07 To the other would have been separated by this speeding thoroughfare.

22:15 Neighborhoods course mobilized against its Druid Hills civic association Inman Park Association East Lake Association of neighborhoods in the old Fourth Ward part of the first because of an alliance with Andy on and set the fourth ward was not a active part of caution.

22:47 Didn't they join us in that in later much later, not at the beginning some of the details elude me anyway, so a lot of people including Emery people were largely motivated by saving the parks because this roadway while I would have affected the whole Emery neighborhood was

23:13 Maybe three-quarters of a mile south of the Emory campus or so, so it wouldn't have had that terribly immediate effect.

23:23 However, it would have affected all kinds of professors and staff who lived in the Druid Hills neighborhood at that time. Most of us did living the Druid Hills neighborhood.

23:37 So the the fight

23:43 Was it first kind of a recapitulation of the fights in the 70s about the Stone Mountain freeway, but increasingly it became a legal fight as as bad as those in in the Georgia. I had to come forward with concrete plans and environmental impact statements and so on and so on these plans always in all ways invariably involved in Gross exaggerations designed to show why we desperately needed this road.

24:22 And sometimes outright lies which we were able we had people studying these things able to identify, you know, the weaknesses and Miss representation. So we had grounds for lawsuits and there were a lot of lawsuits so half a dozen Lofts lawsuits

24:43 It at all levels of the court of Fulton County chords and

24:50 US Federal District Court to Circuit Court of Appeals we even even appealed one losing case to the United States Supreme Court decided not to hear it. Anyway. So there was a lot of legal action and that meant legal expense you deal with lawyers. You have to deal with legal expense. Fortunately. We had some neighborhood lawyers who did a lot of work for us pro bono a lot a lot of pro bono work, especially in the early last night and were you had mentioned to me one of the fundraisers that

25:33 That you enjoyed tell us specifically about that one. That was a liar. Probably our largest fundraiser. I think it was it certainly was the most fun.

25:45 Our president at the time

25:49 The Leighton the much lamented Jack Bowser prison in the ocean.

25:56 Through his daughter and personal friend.

26:02 New Marvin Hamlisch the musician great pianist composer

26:10 And told him our story from you know, the neighborhoods point of view and we had been betrayed and we're going to be run over by all the United forces in the state of Georgia. And what could we possibly do about it? You know it anyway he agreed to come up come down and do a fundraiser for us and I think he did it for free.

26:34 Anyway, I remember when he had his personal bosendorfer piano moved downtown to the

26:48 The Medical Arts Building in downtown Atlanta beautiful old building where we had this special event. And I think the tickets were $100 and that may be the lowest price ticket of $100, but the place was packed and we raised lots of money and he was wonderful. It was a great show. You almost forgot you it's been $100 a night and

27:25 But we have fundraisers all the time in the in the later years the last three years. I was I was treasurer of caution. So I handle the money.

27:35 And one point I tried to figure out how how much we'd actually raised in the nine years of the struggle from 1982 to 1991. And it was well over 400,000. You don't close to a half a million dollars and that was just in and cash donations and information about volunteer hours is it was an amazing amount of money?

28:03 But and you're not just donations but mostly 25 and $50 donations almost all of them were, you know, 50 or less?

28:12 And

28:15 What did we figure at one time there were maybe 3,000 members of caution. It was a very broad-based Group, which is a phenomenal amount amount of people to be involved in that kind of a Grassroots effort.

28:35 I think that's right. I don't remember the exact number but it's something like that. I don't know that we ever actually added it up, but it was somewhere around that number many small and I have

28:49 A few very skilled people who helped us out at Key moments, but speaking of those keep people you mentioned briefly Jack Boozer and I wanted you to go back and talk about a Jack he was in the theology department at Emory and religion religion and I wanted you to also talk about some of the other key players at Emory on the faculty. You may mention dr. Laney but he was in the administration. And so if you could talk about some of the faculty members that worked alongside you and I'm jacked loser. Sure. Well, Jack Boozer above all he took the helm and you know more or less singly single-handedly guided us through a. Do, you know if I'll most certainly lost and despair

29:44 2 position by 1985 where we were starting to win some of those legal cases and people in downtown to downtown Atlanta began to rethink their position and I thought it was I think it was 1985 that the Atlanta City Council reversed itself and came out against the road.

30:06 And they are Jax mayor Jackson also against the road. So we started having success you're looking like we actually had a chance in 1985.

30:21 Anyway other important players were

30:29 I think Bill Carney was certainly one. He was a distinguished professor in the law school Neil Moran and they Medical School Spencer King in the medical school Dan Carter my colleague in the history departments. I have to tell one little story here somewhere in the somewhere. I think around 85 Dan Carter on his own called a meeting of the University faculty and he was no relation to Jimmy Carter no relation to me, certainly not and I think this is one of the things that began to turn Jim Lainey around because

31:14 It's laying its president lady who are the authority to call a meeting of the Emory faculty. And here is some some Professor, you know doing his job at course. Dan Carter wasn't just any Professor. He was a very distinguished professor and you know, one of the most honored and highly paid in Atlanta department. Anyway, the place was packed everyone came and we had this Great Rally against the road and if not before James lining knew that he had big trouble with his faculty if he continued to support hit the road and from then on Laney slowly gradually began to withdraw his support.

32:00 And this was probably crucial to our eventual mostly satisfactory Victory a meeting with Laney with other faculty members before or after the damn Carter meeting Neil Moran Bill Carney and I met with Laney in his office and showed him some plant at the time. Laney was beginning to to pull out and looking for a way to compromise to sort of

32:42 Keep his promises that he had made to you know, Charles kirbo and Jimmy Carter and so on and so on at but the scale it back and so he was looking to compromise by stopping the road about halfway terminating it into Moreland and we showed him some plans indicating the horrible results of doing that it is what you shouldn't have doubted because they were drawn up by Georgia. Architects are we that unsettled in but interchange at Ponce de Leon and Moreland Moreland might have had an impact on the Druid Hills Methodist Church where he was affiliated.

33:28 That could have been part of it. Anyway from there on he's he's gradually withdrawing and at the very end.

33:37 I remember seeing.

33:42 I'm not sure if I actually saw the newspaper article or whether I'm remembering someone telling me about it. But Tom Moreland Z director of Georgia. Being interviewed about the defeat that is planned, you know uncharacteristically, you know was more or less honest and he said, you know that they were more formidable opponents than we thought and he added that he thought that they could have came when James Laney withdrew his support from the road and

34:19 Were it not for that? They would have gotten his way. So the Emory connection turned out to be a very important eventually.

34:28 But it was slow in coming and a great deal of it without the Jack Bowser.

34:37 Someone that was respected.

34:41 By the administration as well as the community-at-large and he had a presence that could not be ignored. It was an ordained Methodist Minister jackboots singer inquires and you know, they Emory collegia music and became friends with him before the road fight.

35:08 So he could he could speak with.

35:15 I mean he was from

35:18 The cool guy Alabama. He had a still had an at something of an Alabama accent so he could reach a large southern white audience very easily.

35:31 And his you know what his religious background his connection with Emory.

35:40 His ability to speak off-the-cuff, you know, very cogently and persuasively made him a good interview. I think I should say that although the Atlanta. JJC was against us from the start almost all the way at the very end. They turned after they saw they're going to lose.

36:06 And began to notice that there that there was some good things to say about our side. I think the TV stations were a lot fair to us and the newspaper the TV stations always recognize you could get in a good interview with Jack Boozer and

36:26 And that there was some good copy, you know where the road Buster's chaining themselves to trees in the park and we were good for the for the TV stations in the newspaper didn't like us at all.

36:41 But anyway, after after they. One one of these cases we lost a couple think we won more than we lost. We won the important cases. Anyway after they had won one of the cases in order to put facts on the ground. They actually started building the bridges that would have run this road above Moreland Avenue. They built the bridge abutment abutment and then another mile down the road over Goldstone Park Goldsboro Park, they build bridge abutments. And you know, we were going to have the infamous tennis courts under the bridge. Anyway, they did their very best to to put us down.

37:32 And we didn't go down we didn't go down. I think basically for two reasons. We felt wounded we felt betrayed and we had a great deal of patience.

37:44 We raised a lot of money, but it wasn't the money. It was the fact that we kept coming back. Even if we lost a big one.

37:53 And made life very uncomfortable for those people trying to hold together this Coalition built on exaggeration and misrepresentation.

38:08 And well, I don't think they're very proud of their their Road and I don't think you're going to find Jimmy Carter saying very much about it ever again. I don't think you're going to find very much about it in the archives of the Carter Center. I think they probably got rid of a lot of paper that no longer suited them.

38:31 And I'm I'm happy to report that alright archives on the other hand to caution archives are available for study and review in the Emory University Library where sooner or later somebody's going to write a very interesting book about all this well, and we do I get phone calls from time to time from students doing research papers who are using the archives so it is being actively used and is available for research and

39:03 It's a Wonderful resource, I think there's a lot of irony in the fact that they archives is at Emory University which was one of our opponents at the time the faculty was not in a position to Jim's lanius do when he saw the writing on the wall and started finally started looking at our side of the story. He did withdrawal.

39:29 Destrehan came full circle and feel about that. And how do you feel after all of these years? I feel great. This was experience showing what you could accomplish if you just dig in

39:58 Get what is the right thing? Well and you develop friendships with faculty members outside of the history department and as well as in the surrounding neighborhoods and that has been an important part of this road fight last president of caution that mean you're a good friend. Then never would have gotten together if it hadn't been for this nap so lightly that was a good thing. You should thank you John. This is been very interesting.