Gary Kapp and Cole Thaler

00:05 My name is Cole Taylor. I am 35 years old. Today's date is October 27th, 2012. We're in Atlanta Georgia in the storycorps booth and I am the domestic partner and fiance of my storytelling partner Gary cap. My name is Gary cap. I am 49 years old and today is October 27th 2012 and we are in Atlanta Georgia, and I'm here with my partner and fiance.

00:47 So you were born and raised in Ohio in a little town called?

00:57 And when did you become interested in performing in in singing and dance was what was your first gig?

01:13 First gay guy Within

01:16 The sound of music that you wanted the little children. Do you remember which one? No, no, I don't think imma go and what do you remember from being in that that roll when you were five to remember liking it? Oh, yeah. I remember that. That's what I want to do. I wanted to say

01:43 I wanted to be an actor. That's actually what I went to college for originally until I hurt my knee and then

01:55 Switch the nursing which is a huge job, but it was the only thing I could get out of college the fastest with the credits that I already had.

02:06 And you performed through school through high school and middle school or you to a performing arts high school part-time and I did.

02:19 Theater all through High School through college

02:24 I sang in the choir at School chorus all the time. It's so love your family encouraged that yes, I think my dad was too keen on it, but they always encouraged me to do what I wanted to do.

02:44 And they encourage me to go to college for whatever I wanted to go to college for.

02:52 I was first cap to go to college so

02:58 Play I don't think they cared what I got to do Brianna song with that goes degree.

03:03 And you were the oldest of three boys foreign very close together. And yes, we're all year apart. Actually. My brothers are 11 months apart.

03:16 Send when you got to college. Did you know that you wanted to be a wizard a drama major or what was your first major and then while I was in college, I started taking dance classes and really

03:35 Like that a lot more and I didn't dance.

03:40 But then I

03:42 Tore up my knee so that kind of ended that career for a while the dance part of it. And where did you go to college at Wright State University in Ohio? And how far was that from the town you grew up in?

03:57 About 4 hours away.

04:01 So when did you come out to your parents as gay?

04:11 Officially officially I was

04:18 My last

04:21 Two years of college and two years after college was living with partner and my parents really liked him. He was really kind of part of the family. And so when we broke up and I was moving out I felt like they needed more of a

04:46 Explanation other than I'm just moving out. So I told them the truth.

04:53 And how did you say it?

04:56 I told them that Tim and I were actually more than roommates just roommate and my mother said did you think we didn't already know that?

05:09 Did she know when you were five in The Sound of Music?

05:19 I never even heard the word gay before I went to college so it wasn't a big button issue like it is now.

05:29 Back when I was growing up. How did your father react?

05:36 I don't know. She my mother told me that she would tell my father they had already discussed it. And so I don't know how he reacted to the confirmation of the news, but

05:57 She

06:00 Treats me actually better now are well they better but I think we're closer now than we used to be.

06:10 So when did you move to Atlanta?

06:12 1991

06:16 I moved down here with another partner who got a job.

06:22 Down here. We were transferred. He was transferred down here and I moved with them.

06:29 And when you got here, did you seek out a theater community?

06:34 We did for the first year. We didn't really do anything and it was rough cuz we were the only two that we

06:43 New in the city. So the only two what of any fun, we didn't know anybody else other than the people we worked with.

06:54 And then we did a show.

06:57 Han

07:01 I'm mad at people that I'm still close to and really good friends with today click speak up but group up

07:17 People that we did multiple shows with and went to parties with went out and hung out with

07:27 What was the first show you did in Atlanta

07:30 On the first show. I actually was a benefit for AIDS called I'm straight from the heart, but then the show that I met.

07:43 Everybody that I was just talking about was called Merrily We Roll Along with actually a very bad show, but we had so much fun on stage. Just acting like a total goof off. We all bonded.

08:01 And how often would you be in shows in Atlanta? Did you do one after the other after the other did you take time off in between

08:16 Sometimes we do them one right after another and sometimes it would be a year in between just depending on the show if it was something I really wanted to do or

08:29 I knew people that were auditioning for and we would go out Titian together.

08:35 So used to be a club in midtown Atlanta called the red chair Club. So tell me how you ended up as a participant in the competition at the red chair in 2000-2005. How did you how did you end up on that stage?

09:04 What they called red chair Idol they were

09:11 Having weekly competitions and then the winner of each competition for 10 weeks then came together for the finals to

09:24 Compete for the red chair idle and I went.

09:31 Every week but one and sang and kept getting first second or third place in not quite winning. So I kept going back and it was audience participation, but it was on a Thursday night. So it was hard to get people that you know to come so I started bragging all my friends to come and cheer for me and finally the 10th week I want.

10:03 So

10:05 And I was in the finals the following we actually was two weeks later set temp tell me about the finals tell me about that performance. Well, I was sick as a dog that day.

10:21 Just wanted to stay in bed.

10:26 But I had been trying so hard to get in that I was going to go unless I was dead so

10:38 I got there and a lot of my friends were already there to cheer me on because it was on its participation to chase the winner. Remember what date what the date was April 14th 2005.

10:57 I won't forget that day.

11:03 And I

11:05 Was feverish and just felt really bad. So I hugged all my friends and told them I was going to go to the green room and

11:16 Sit down before the performance and the last thing I remember is.

11:22 Going there were no seats in the green room. They were all taken by the other nine contestants. So I sat on the floor and was so tired. I decided to lay down and that's the last thing I remember.

11:37 Apparently I

11:41 Went and performed my tooth cuz we got to sing to songs then performed. Both of them. I am.

11:51 Then we went out for the announcement of who won.

11:57 And

12:00 But I don't remember any of that. That's just from what I've been told by friends that were there. And when what happened during the announcement I had what they think was a seizure and fell out on stage.

12:15 Luckily, there were some cardiac nurses in the audience who stabilized me in.

12:24 Got me.

12:30 Stabilize before the ambulance got there, and I was taken to the hospital.

12:37 Was

12:40 About a week before they figured out what was really wrong. And apparently I had

12:48 Chicken pox well varicella when you're an adult most people get shingles, but 2% of the population and goes Inward and attacks the spinal column and it's usually fatal.

13:05 So if it weren't for the fact that I was standing on stage in an audience full of people and two cardiac nurses happen to be there. I probably would have died if I had stayed home that night not gone. I definitely would have died.

13:25 But as fate would have it I was in a room full of people in so

13:34 Ended up

13:37 In a wheelchair for two years at what don't don't skip ahead. Tell me how long how long were you in the hospital while I was at?

13:47 What was then Crawford long for a week in the ICU and then a week?

13:56 On the regular floor

13:59 Do you remember any of it? I know I've Heard lots of interesting stories seeing killer bunnies on the wall and thinking that people kidnap me and took me to the basement and

14:17 The basement of a restaurant that I used to go to but I don't remember anything which

14:26 From what I understand is probably a good thing. I wasn't.

14:31 Very nice. And then where'd you go after the hospital from Crawford Long? I went to Shepherd spinal center for a couple of months to learn.

14:45 How to get around in a wheelchair and

14:51 Take care of myself.

14:54 And where did you go? Did you stay in Atlanta after that? No, because I lived by myself at the time and

15:05 I was not going to be able to care for myself. I was really not in a good place because

15:14 When I went into Shepherd Bay.

15:18 Really thought that it was by the time I left there. I was going to be back on my feet again, and it wasn't until

15:28 Halfway through my stay at Shepherd that

15:32 I came to the realization that I was going to be in a wheelchair and that might be my new normal and I wouldn't be dancing anymore and

15:45 I would not be.

15:48 The same person that or the

15:51 Be able to do the same things that I had done before so I was not.

15:58 Really in a state of mind to be living by myself. So I had to move back home to Ohio with my parents and what were some of the other effects of the spinal cord infection. Did it did it affect your vision I had

16:15 It affected the cranial nerves. So I had double vision I couldn't if if I was looking out of both eyes. I couldn't really see I saw double of everything so I had to wear an eye patch over one eye so that I was even able to see so that cut down on my peripheral. I wasn't able to use computer or watched movies or TV which has you know, it's a big part of my life.

16:55 So tell me tell me about the kind of person that you were before April 14th, 2005 and the kind of person that you became after that date through your recovery.

17:10 Well before

17:17 I was

17:23 I wouldn't say I was a very happy person. I was very

17:31 Concerned with

17:34 Perceptions and the way things looked in the way people thought about me and

17:47 What?

17:50 People that I hung around with how

17:57 Other people would perceive me because of who I was hanging around with and

18:04 I guess superficial I was

18:07 A lot more superficial

18:10 And then after

18:15 The infection and going through

18:19 Being in a wheelchair for 2 years and learning to walk again and having to move back home with my parents at 43 and giving up my Independence in my adulthood. Really.

18:38 Just being able to

18:40 Get up in the morning and stand up get out of bed made all those things. I used to worry about so much seem really insignificant.

18:54 Not important

18:59 Just being able to stand up in the morning.

19:04 Anything else with just icing on the cake?

19:09 So about 10 days after you passed out on the stage at the red chair. I moved to Atlanta.

19:22 From Massachusetts where I had been living for 10 years where I had gone to undergraduate school at Williams college and then law school at Northeastern and then lived in practice law for a couple of years.

19:35 And I moved out here obviously not having met you or heard of you or knowing anything about you at the time and I move down here for a job with Lambda legal as their National transgender rights attorney with a job that I didn't think I was going to guess. I didn't think I was qualified for and apply for it in January of that year was offered in February and dropped everything and moved a thousand miles away in April.

20:08 So I was in the middle of a

20:10 Dramatic change in my life and

20:15 It was in law school between 1999 and 2002 that I really sort of officially came out as a transgender man and started transition from female to male.

20:35 Medical transition started hormone therapy started Living as male started working as male chose. My male name Cole and started figuring out what what life as a man would look like and

20:55 For me my path up to that point in terms of relationships and sexual orientation had been very all over the map and confusing and I I like to say that I have been LG BNT lnb in the past currently GMT it took a long time to figure out.

21:21 That's way that I can be a man that I was allowed. There was room for me and be that I could be a gay man. And you know, I think my serve perception of gender gender expression and transgender expression with that female to transition to males wear these serves super Butch women who are so so so much that they were too much to be women and they became men and I knew that I was not but you know, I didn't know how to change a tire. I still don't.

22:01 You know, I was into things like show tunes and decorating and all these kinds of things and pink and you know unicorns and fun stuff like that and always loves kittens and you know, it really kind of took a long time to wait a second all I'm a gay man. Oh and all those traits that would just be sort of weird kind of feminine traits are these actually kind of almost stereotypical gay male traits and and it was like things clicked for me like there is a place for me and I can be a man because there's a million different kinds of men and there's Butch man in there's sissy man and there's is a middle-of-the-road man. And and it's you don't have to be a particular kind you can just be yourself. And if you're a man, that's the kind of man that you are.

22:53 So but I didn't know you know, I had dated women mostly lesbian identified very masculine women because I was attracted to the masculinity.

23:06 And you know came out to my mother as bisexual and then never really came out as lesbian and didn't do a very good job of coming out as trans kind of let her go clean that but I didn't know what my relationship life was going to look like after transition. I mean I read for me that part of my transition was a real leap of faith and figuring out as I went along and figuring at hoping that if I was true to myself then the other pieces would fall into place and then I would find, you know, someone or or people or a community that would accept me in and and be attracted to me and want to date me.

23:54 So so you were you were unconscious and Delirious in the hospital like I moved to Atlanta and then you move to Ohio to recover and you came back to Atlanta when 2007 what do you remember what month?

24:15 Mets

24:19 Yeah, man. I came down in March and

24:27 Try to find a place to live but then I came back in May and stayed with a friend of mine while I found a house to rent and a job.

24:36 And you had you had been a member of the Atlanta gay men's chorus before you got sick. Is that right?

24:43 Yes a couple times. I've been in and gone back out to do a show and come back in.

24:54 And

24:57 When I came down to visit in my wheelchair, like went to one of their shows and they told me if I came back that I should come back. Come on Titian. And so

25:13 I I didn't.

25:15 Know how theater was going to work anymore since my walking was so unsteady and and I certainly wasn't going to be able to dance in any shows. So I decided to go back to the chorus because they told me I could do the shows sitting down so just can't stand for long periods of time.

25:39 So you join the chorus when you got back to Atlanta in 07, I think it was.

25:47 Play-Doh 7er first of all, I hate you rejoined. Yeah.

25:53 And it was May of 2009 that I auditioned.

26:00 I had done a talent show with Lambda legal on a retreat and I have done asked it where I had Rewritten the lyrics to you got to have heart from Damn Yankees to apply to our job and then listed five co-workers to sing with me and I had so much fun. And I remembered how much I like singing when I was in high school in a little bit in college. So I said well what the hell I'm just going to audition and

26:31 See if I get in and I got in and I remember Kevin the artistic director says what what voice part of you song in the past?

26:45 Tanner and I attend her it's a question. I had to having Never song as a man in any group before it. That's one of the men's parts, right? That's the high one. Right? Okay has Tanner and he said well first tenor or second Center. What's the difference? I kind of gave him a blank look and I said I've never been in a course for that distinction was made so he rolled his eyes and said okay 10 or 1 for your first tenor. Okay. Okay. So I show up at the first rehearsal and we're all the other one. So they point me to the Tanner one in tiny little Tanner once and they are in the front is I see this this handsome man, who is is not making eye contact with me. He's sitting pretty much with his back turned very handsome salt-and-pepper hair.

27:43 And

27:46 What I noticed about him besides the fact that he's totally unfriendly.

27:52 Is that he doesn't stand up a lot. You know, you you when we did the warm-up seeing everyone else was standing you would stay sitting and Kevin would have us stand for for a certain pieces and you would have me stay sitting so, you know, I just observe that but but I didn't really know and certainly wasn't going to walk up to this on Friendly Stranger who clearly knew exactly how handsome he was and that's why he was so stuck-up and ask personal questions. So I figured you know other people were family to me and that was that was good enough and you were just going to be the you know, that the handsome handsome guy that I was never going to speak to.

28:32 Until suddenly you started speaking to me.

28:37 What do you what do you remember about about me from those those early days remember where you were having a sectional and

28:47 Harry was leaving our sectional on.

28:52 We weren't real fond of his Direction and he asked if there were any other songs that we wanted to sing and you told him you wanted to go over.

29:08 Take the A Train. Train and he said which one and you said the one called Take the A Train because we were doing two different versions, but the second one was called something else.

29:26 That's when I first noticed he can be a star keep bitching.

29:35 So I started talking to you.

29:40 And I didn't talk to people not cuz I

29:46 Thought I was better than anyone but just cuz I'm

29:54 Well, not really shy, but I'm not.

29:58 Outgoing in introduce myself to new people

30:05 And you didn't know at that point that I was transgender. Oh, no, no cuz then a couple weeks later we had a

30:17 Concert at

30:22 Do University

30:25 A preview concert and you were wearing flip-flops and I look down and

30:33 I noticed that all your toes were shiny and

30:41 Told you you had cute feet and

30:46 Told me that you had pedicures that would sure.

30:52 Guilty pleasure

30:57 It wasn't long after that but I asked you if you wanted to go to dinner, but you you are actually the section manager and which meant that you were in charge of taking attendance, then yeah and forcing all the policies and we had to let you know if we were going to be out or we were supposed to let you know ahead of time if you were going to be out. So I remember I told you I texted you sent you a text message telling you I wasn't going to be at a rehearsal.

31:26 This was added in September of of 2009 because I had to go out of town. So you text it back. Okay, and then I came back from my trip and you sent me a text saying how was the trip or know? You know what it was you you texted me the day before the trip and said have a good trip.

31:50 But this in a week or so had passed since I had even told you I was going so I remember thinking wow, he's taking his section manager job very seriously that he's even remembering that I'm going on this trip and he's going out of his way. It took me awhile for it to dawn on me that you were flirting with me. Even though the cute toes thing is I didn't have a I didn't understand where that may be said that to everyone. I don't know.

32:16 So finally finally you asked me out and you asked me to the all you can eat shrimp shrimp dinner at Red Lobster, which I thought was the dorkiest thing I had ever heard until you saw me a trip I could eat. Well, it was kind of refreshing you instead of booty locally-grown, you know Farmers Market restaurant with the $40 entrees, you know, you asked me to this chain and I was thinking of this guy is either, you know, the biggest loser or he just doesn't give a crap what other people think and you know, he does what he likes and

33:02 Luckily, it turned out turned out to be the latter. So we we met at the Red Lobster and

33:10 Finally over dinner. I felt like okay now I could ask you about the sitting down thing.

33:19 And I remember you know the saying if you if you don't mind me asking cuz you know, I've noticed that you sit a lots. Could you tell me more about why that is and you told me the story that you just called. Your spinal cord injury and I just remember really being blown away at what you had survived. And you know, I think you told me that they weren't sure when you got to Crawford Long whether you were going to live or die and I told my friends to call my family because I probably wasn't going to

33:55 Survive

33:57 So and and you know, not only did you survive but you learned how to walk again and your vision came back slowly and you know, you can can drive and can walk and you had come so far and I just remember.

34:16 Being really struck by that. So after we left a Red Lobster and went over to the Starbucks another chain for our your correct. I didn't want the night to end.

34:32 And we sat and had our I think I had a hot chocolate and a brownie and I remember thinking I should I should I come out to him, you know, he's just he just said these personal things to me. I really don't want to scare this guy off. But you know, I kind of feel like he opened up to me about these things. I like I would like to return the favor in the in the honor and the honesty so I told you that I was transgender that I had transitioned. What what do you remember thinking when I said that

35:13 Actually, I think you told me you were FTM and I was like, what the hell is that?

35:21 I didn't I didn't say female-to-male transsexual and transgender I said after you.

35:32 New World from babe

35:38 Wasn't really important cuz I liked you as a person so that didn't really

35:50 Strikes me as something that mattered. Do you think it would have struck you as something that mattered before you got sick?

35:57 Probably

36:00 Because I wouldn't worry too much about someone finding out or

36:08 What would other people think or?

36:13 Yeah.

36:15 Well, I remember that you're your first question to me was.

36:20 What is your family? Think about that and I was really impressed that your first reaction wasn't, you know, something along the lines of how does this affect me? What body parts do you have? You know, it was this question about me and about my family and in the reaction that they had in about my sort of experience.

36:49 And when I found out when the date that you had had that seizure at the red chair and that I was in the moment, the instant that had happened to you. I was packing my suitcase is up in Greenfield, Massachusetts, you know getting ready to get in a car and start a whole new life in at the state. I've been to once before and and there we were on our two trajectories.

37:16 Not knowing that we were heading towards each other. But but heading toward each other being changed in the ways that we were changing. I just it felt it felt like fate to me.

37:32 And when you told me that it was someone who told you that you survived and you must have survived for a reason.

37:44 You know, it's hard not to think that that I was part of that reason.

37:50 Definitely

37:57 So, thank you.

38:00 You for asking me out for 3 and 4.

38:08 Changing in the ways that you changed. I know that obviously you didn't want to get sick and it was an awful experience for you in a lot of ways, but I think

38:23 For all the ways that it changed you physically, you know that were bad the ways that it changed you emotionally and personality-wise and mentally were good and wonderful and and brought us together forever.

38:46 I love you.

38:48 I love you, too.

38:51 And thank you for

38:54 Coming to storycorps with me and

38:57 Telling telling the story so we can capture it in and remember it.