Mark Kimmell and Andy Ritan

00:03 My name is Mark Hamill. I'm 61 years old today is July 9th 2013. I'm here at the Atlanta History Center in Atlanta, Georgia. And I'm here with my friend Andy right? We met the way we both joined Diamond approach spiritual and meditation group that we both belong to about 6 years ago.

00:25 My name is Andi writing. I am 52 years old. Today is July 9th 2013. I'm here at the Atlanta History Center in Buckhead and I'm here with my friend Mark Kimmel whom I met through the diamond approach meditation and other spiritual teaching group.

00:54 Well Mark, you told me that you were about to undergo some medical treatment that will affect your speech. Can you describe the context in which this treatment is occurring and the kind of treatment that you will have I will.

01:10 About 16 months ago. I was diagnosed with cancer in my throat. I had some surgery underwent radiation therapy chemotherapy and several procedures to enlarge my esophagus and I've been progressing through my recovery doing very well gaining strength and energy and thought it was about to go back to work until about a couple of weeks ago when I had a pet scan that revealed some unwanted activity a biopsy indicated the cancer has record. Now, I'm going to have some more surgery to remove the cancer hopefully once and for all

01:52 And as a result of that surgery some tissues going to be removed from my tongue specifically the base of my tongue and my throat and possibly more so that my speech will be affected. And so I thought it would be a good idea to come to storycorps and have a conversation about this and record my voice as it sounds now and maybe talk a little bit about these upcoming changes.

02:21 Very good. What what kinds of changes do you see happening as a result of your treatment while I understand that after my surgery. I will need to relearn to speak to eat and to swallow that because of the tissue that'll be removed from my tongue in my throat and my voice box may be affected as well that I will sound differently than I do now and then I'll have to relearn to speak with the changes of the change configuration in my throat. I understand based on talking to a speech pathologist at my speech will likely be somewhat slurred and if my voice box is removed that it will sound kind of synthetic and I'll kind of like a robot that I'll be able to speak under any of the surgical scenarios that have been mapped out so far, but that my speech will be different than it is now.

03:17 If your voice box is removed, would you then need to speak with one of those external devices or would use now? I understand that I would be able to speak without it. They'll be a essentially valve put in the wall between my esophagus in my trachea. And when I cover the tracheostomy opening in my neck, the air will be forced through my esophagus and I will produce what's termed esophageal speech. So other tissues in my esophagus in my throat will vibrate that will take the place of the vibrations normally produced by the voice box and I'll be able to form the sounds with my mouth the way I do now, although my ability to perform those sounds will be changed because of the surgery.

04:06 How do you think these changes that will happen in your surgery will impact your life? Well, you know a fairly extensive and probably difficult recovery has been described for me. So that's the the first thing that's going to happen is I'll need to work again to get strong to regain my strength and to learn to talk with the changes that will be in my mouth in my throat and want to eat and drink.

04:34 I am hoping and I really expect there won't be lots of physical limitations beyond that. I think I'll still be able to do lots of the things that I like to do. Now, you know hiking enjoying the outdoors bird watching with my wife traveling because of the changes to my speech. I think social interactions for me will be will be changed certainly with people. I don't know because I may sound odd to them. They may find it difficult to understand me. So I anticipate those kinds of changes.

05:12 How will this affect your ability to eat regular food? Well if my

05:19 If my voice box is not removed and I continue to have a trachea like I do now, I'll have to learn how to use how to channel food and water so it goes down my esophagus instead of being aspirated down my trachea into my lungs and that's I think one of the main things that I'll have to focus on in my recovery is learning how to do that effectively. So, you know, I think that's one of the one of the big tasks that I'll have to perform during my recovery is is learning how to do that hand running out of speaker as well.

05:53 Do you have fears about the changes that will occur?

05:58 You know, I do a little bit. I've been stood with another friend recently and

06:05 We talked about this and she had a very valuable insight for me. I describe some of the fears I have about people responding in a different way to me that people wouldn't want to talk with me as much because my voice is going to be changed and it may be a little bit different a little bit difficult for them to understand me and our conversation might not be as fluid as it is now and she said Walmart if the shoe were on the other foot If This Were happening to me, how would you feel about talking to me? And that really gave me a wonderful perspective because I just felt my heart opening up and I knew that if she were having to go through this that I would be very patient with her that I would I said, I will sit it. I would sit and smile at you for as long as it took for you to say whatever you needed to say and I don't think it would change our ability to have the same kind of interaction that we have now.

07:04 And once she open that door for me and I saw that it made me feel a lot better about the kinds of interactions. I'll be able to have with my friends and family going forward strangers, maybe a little bit different but you know, they don't count as much if someone in a restaurant and I'll looks at me funny and if I can get over that pretty easily so a lot of those fears were a little bit neutralize my friend gave me this perspective.

07:34 Since your surgeons don't know exactly how much tissue they're going to need to remove until they're actually in there doing the surgery. How do you feel about the uncertainty of the, can you describe the range of things that that it? Might that might take place depending on what they find? Yeah, what what's been described is that until they do the pathology during the surgery? They won't know exactly how much tissue will need to be removed. So even with the sophisticated tests that are available they can't see exactly how deep the cancer goes or what how much should you don't have to remove in order to help get a clear margin of tissue around a cancerous tumor so they actually send tissue samples off to the pathologist in real time during the surgery. He touched them since back the results and they keep removing tissue until they have a clear margin so

08:29 That's the source of the uncertainty knowing exactly how much tissue they'll need to remove and uncertainty has been a bigger part of my life in the last 16 months than it ever was before just because of the treatment that I've undergone and the uncertainty of the recovery that I've affected to this point because I thought I was going to be recovered long before now but it thinks played out differently. So I've had to deal with the uncertainty of not knowing what affects the original treatment had or we're going to have and then the uncertainty of the recovery after those treatments stopped and I've become a little more comfortable with uncertainty as a result, I believe and I'm probably because of some of the work that we do and Diamond approach that that puts uncertainty in a different perspective.

09:25 So, you know, I don't get as anxious as I might have gotten previously because I've come to the realization that uncertainty is a part of life a bigger part than maybe we normally recognize that there are a lot of things that are outside our control that we believe are within our control until work now faced with the realities of how things play out. And so I'm a little more comfortable with that uncertainty than I might have been previously. I'm thinking about the the Diamond approach teaching about the cultivation of curiosity about what the future might hold what might unfold as opposed to a kind of entrenched door fearfulness and which were pushing back. Yeah, one of the things that that was really hard for me was accepting the idea of allowing and letting go

10:25 And I find that the more that I can Embrace that the easier my path is and the better things turn out when I'm not trying so hard to control things and and produce a specific outcome that I have in mind when I'm more open to embracing the outcome that seems to be presenting itself certainly working because I'll have and I will take a lot of effort for me to get from my surgery to the place that I want to be. So it's not as if I'm a passive in a leaf floating in the Stream and not trying to In-N-Out shake my life, but being open to eventualities that I hadn't predicted or maybe not wouldn't have embraced previously seems to seem still for a kind of Freedom that I didn't really recognize with possum for

11:27 You for standing Mark has requested I go first. Okay, it's very hard to describe but the way I usually approach it is to say that I think the diamond approach is equal parts Buddhist Meditation Western psychology and Sufi mysticism reflecting in part. I think the background of its founder Hameed I will meet Allie who was trained in Western psychology and is from the Middle East so that would be his familiarity with with Sufi mysticism. And I don't know how he got interested in Buddhist Meditation, but that really is a big component of the teachings. So one of his insights, I don't see how much do I want to go into this one of his insights is that the just patiently sitting in Buddhist Meditation which I did for many years is frustrating for most students. But when you add the insights of Western psychology to that there can be kind of huge transformation that

12:27 Comes out of that and I just found it hugely helpful and I signed up for that when I really almost as soon as I found out about it and found Mark, they're the first session I attended. Yeah, that's that's a really good description of what it is. Probably better one than I had to provide. And the reason the main reason I joined was I had a sense that this might connect me with a group of like-minded people in Atlanta. I didn't know a whole lot about the message that was going to be delivered but I had an inkling that these might be people that I would find a lot in common with and that certainly been the case.

13:07 One of the things I noticed changed after your illness. So let's see. I known you for I guess for and a half years before your cancer is diagnosed. So during that time you had this this kind of iconic career going. I think you told me that in your tire working. Like you've never had a single day out of work. That was involuntary. That's right. That's right. Okay, and the last and you've worked for these truly iconic companies like pricewaterhousecooper you work for a most recently for IBM. I mean, I I just say that because there's such a conventional traditional big companies like that in your role was as a as a consultant and you'd get on an airplane and be gone for the whole week and be home for weekends. And this was like just the way you did it year after year and you seem to have I mean

14:01 Then when your illness occurred you are in just observing you my observation of you is that you're like, okay, I'm having this little detour and as soon as I've dealt with the treatment, I'm going to get back on the plane and keep doing keep working as a as a consultant for IBM and that hasn't happened and when it first went when when you first realized that this little detour was going to be a lot bigger than you thought. Well, maybe I'll just ask you to describe how you experience. It was it was a big change in perspective. That's for sure. So I I realize that one point that you know, this that the detour might be a permanent one and I might not be able to go back to work and that gave me pause to think about how I felt about that. You know, that that my life would be entering a new fenu stage and I was stage of retirement or a state.

15:01 Or I wasn't and I working for, you know, a company serving Fortune 500 companies helping them, you know manage their manage their finances Etc. So it made me.

15:18 It helped me see myself apart from that career, which had it has always been a big part of my Persona and seeing that distinction was a valuable one and seeing what I have to offer outside of that.

15:36 And how much?

15:38 Have a role that had played in my life going to what I depend that I depended upon that in some ways to help other people know who I am or you know league on it as a crutch because I will people will be you know impressed or have a certain idea about me because of these companies. I've worked at or work for moving that out of the picture.

16:04 Kind of boiled things down and helped me.

16:08 See more of what is Mark from the inside not just the mark the trappings that Mark puts on to go out into the business world. Yeah. I always knew you if I never knew you in the context of an IBM consultant. I only knew you in the context of a diamond approach student, but one of the foundational questions in the diamond approach, who do you take yourself to be for for for you? I am an IBM consultant was yeah. That was the answer. That's the default answer certainly wouldn't stop being so there was a big change for you and I think at first I experienced to you as being angry and maybe even bitter and frustrated about that, but then it turned into something else. Yeah, it was frustrating at first because it was so important in my life and I was proud of it and still am proud of the work that I've done in the people that I work with and for but it changed

17:08 I recognized well, I may be in a fight here. That's going to take me down a path that in other doesn't let me rejoin that world it may or may not but but that realization was a big one that things might change permanently that I might not be able to include that as part of my who I am when I meet somebody new the first time.

17:33 If you know, how did you reach that realization like where they're certain moments with their experiences. Was it a sudden aha or was it just a gradual awareness? I think for me. It was a realization that the recovery was going to take much much longer than I anticipated mean. I thought a month or two after my last treatment that I was going to be back raring to go again, and that was not the case at all that the recovery was much more protracted took a lot more work than I had anticipated and there were lots more, you know, lots more obstacles to overcome just getting back getting my physical strength and stamina and energy back during that recovery. I didn't anticipate that and so once that dawned on me, I knew that it was going to be a protracted struggle to get back to the point where I could go back to work and then you know, and then the question comes

18:33 Well, do I want to go back to work and in what will that mean? If I don't want, you know when I don't but if I'm unable to or if I choose not to for some reason then I have a new life to build and it's not quite the same life that I envisioned in a retiring on my predetermined time schedule that I've had in my mind for a few years now. So yeah the yeah the recognition that the recovery was going to be longer and more arduous and have more run.

19:03 More fire Rings Hoops to jump through was kind of wet that led me to that recognition.

19:10 What I think of people that have a cancer diagnosis that prove to be life-changing for them one way it can turn out and I think I have a negative way I can turn out as is it is not the person who has the cancer man has done, you know the light Direction changes what they thought they wanted to do what they first wanted to do. They can't do anymore. They can become bitter or negative and angry hostile defeated. It becomes this big tragedy for them that their they've been detoured from what they identified as their life who you take yourself to the I take myself is to be who I was before I have cancer and I can't go back and get it's just big disaster and for you my my experience and I think I can speak for some of the other Diamond approach to instead that know you through our our shared practice there is that so you were you were the IBM are you know growing in the in the practice and then you had cancer and you dealt with that and then

20:10 You realize it and then you are angry and frustrated and Federer for a while because you realized it wasn't going to you weren't going to be able to get back on that track. The way you thought you could and then from our experiences like this like good to switch just got thrown and you just kind of lit up and there was a big change in you and that you became more available to us and more available to yourself. And it was like there's this kind of like that opened up that. None of us a previously seen. I don't think I'm overstating this dude is that in any way your experience and the others that they're definitely been changes in one of the things that I recognized is that as difficult as this experience has been over the last 16 months there have been some incredibly valuable lessons that I've drawn from it and I'm not sure I'd recommend this as a strategy to learn those lessons, but the lessons have been precious and chief among them and and this lesson has come in a variety of ways is

21:10 Value of what is right here right now over what's in the past or what might be in the future because when I was going through a very difficult times during the treatment was very uncomfortable because of the various treatments. I was undergoing I found that I could get myself into a quiet place within my body and I could always find a way to be okay in that moment, even if you know, the skin was really burned on my neck, and I couldn't be because the tissue in my mouth was very sore and couldn't sleep because you know, I couldn't lie down comfortably and there were times where things were really uncomfortable physically, but there was always a way that I could find a way to be comfortable in a chair and quiet my mind and focus on that moment and that moment was okay. It didn't matter that. I couldn't be what I was

22:10 Prior to treatment and it was of no use to fantasize about how I was going to be once. I got through this recovery that I projected for myself. Those things did not matter. They were not valuable. What was valuable was being right here right now in that moment and my ability to focus on that and recognition of how much value that had really changed. Thanks a lot for me and that's certainly part of the the message that we here in Diamond approach and lots of other and a lot of other spiritual paths, but I think embracing that idea of the value of what's right here right now instead of the past the future and trying to

22:58 Trying to control some in a predetermined outcome that you think might need to happen for some reason is that has been a big change for me and my life and has allowed me to approach these These Times very differently then then I would have

23:19 What are the things that strikes me in your dealing with that with the cancer treatment and the uncertainty of it the first time it came around and now that you've had a recurrence where the losses potential even Graver to you in terms of the the change in your ability to speak your ability to process food and you know, and then the possibility that this recurrence might take your wife in the next few years as it as as a possible outcome. These are high stakes. This is a big deal and previously in Buddhist practice for me it a bit and you know, I'm angry because my girlfriend isn't cooperating or I'm angry because you know, my car battery died today or whatever. It might be but the kinds of oh, yeah that you'll be spiritual practices are great for dealing with my frustration at my girlfriend on my prescription with my car. But frustration with cancer is really the

24:19 The highest level of of the game so to speak. I mean, it's not a game. It's like it's a whole different different camp and one of the one of the questions for me, sometimes it's been do these tools that work for the minor irritations of life also work for that for the largest irritations and 1/2. Well, I mean, I guess my experience has been that they do because I was I was surprised when the one of the surgeons that I met with recent lady on describe the extent of the surgery that she believed was necessary to remove the cancer. I wasn't really anticipating that and I was stunned a little bit but I didn't, you know completely flip out and it's been it hasn't been that hard to

25:14 Focus on the next steps that need to happen for me to get the right medical treatment without panicking and you know

25:24 Flying to Pieces because the prospect of huge changes in my life that I would not invite and a not recurrence could you know could proceed I mean it could handle a bad scenario would be that they can't you know that carved out this time and it comes back again or shows up someplace else. There's no evidence of that at this point, but that's certainly not to be ruled out. I mean, I thought I had it first time around and turned out not to be but I haven't experienced a huge level of anxiety. I mean, it's sort of well, this is what's on my plate now.

26:01 May as well dig in because what other option is there, you know panicking doesn't get me anywhere and the things that I got the tools that I've acquired going through the first round of treatment I think will serve me very well in the second chapter. So as I go around this next Bend in the road, I think those tools will help me navigate.

26:28 Do you use the phrase dig in Marco? And if you could say a little more specifically what you mean by that either with an example from the last go-around or a type of approach to be in action in a real-time challenge that you had a bad moment. You were going through. Well, it certainly seems like there's no there's nothing to be gained by ignoring ignoring the situation. I mean the reality of it is really fun center. So pretending like it's not there or pretending that is something that it isn't is of no value at all. In fact, it's it I think it's clearly counterproductive. So embracing what's what's there in a figuring out what what you can do that's productive as far as you know, the medical side of things is you know, is it is an obvious as an obvious path, but, you know preparing your mind so that

27:28 You're not completely derail if things don't go exactly like you would like them to because there seems to be always an option or always a potential for a good outcome even within the worst of circumstances. So if for some reason my life is short and then I and I don't believe it will be I still don't believe it will be at this point, but that's certainly a possibility if my life is shortened by many many years. Then there's the possibility that these years that I have may be incredibly sweet beyond any expectation that I would have had before so I can't get too upset about that because of what I've been able to glean from this experience that I wouldn't wish on anyone.

28:19 Thus far so it's just kind of been an unfolding of richness even in a Uno Bramble patch and that's certainly what I mean. When I say that I can and some of the other Diamond approach students just experienced You is kind of lit up from within during this. Of dealing with your cancer. And what are the what are the things that

28:45 You and I choose to do in the diamond approach is meet weekly for an inquiry session, which means basically we do something that's not too different word from what we're doing right now, which is inquire into the present moment or inquire into the spirit spiritual question at hand. And we do that in my place in a little tiny screened in porch. I have in my backyard that is surrounded by huge oak trees and wild birds and chipmunks and just as we sit there week after week There's this sense of this very ordinary environment just becoming a kind of luminous. You know, it becomes not just a chipmunk but here's the holy chipmunk, you know this character that lives in the in the the holy Grotto, you know, where we are. We supposed to do our our our enquiries then I remember actually giving voice to this over with within the last few weeks at that chipmunk that I let you know, just enjoy the heck out at watching them living out there at

29:45 On my porch May wind up in the belly of a hawk tomorrow and

29:52 It doesn't I assume he knows it but it doesn't really affect his and you know, if that were to happen if the if tomorrow my favorite chipmunk is in the belly of the hawk. It doesn't affect his enjoyment of sitting in his his real son today and that's that's well said in and I guess that's you know a little bit of what I'm but I've been able to experience and then bring to the Forefront is that the that ability to focus on what's right here right now as a source of joy and push the past and the and the future kind of out of the way so so the joy of Life as we can experience it in the moment can really come through.

30:33 Where I've been really struggling with it, especially since some since I learned that you had a recurrence and that the nature of your of the treatment might deprive you of your voices. I've known it is how much I have come to depend on your voice and it was weekly sessions and your articulateness with your voice and just that just your voice is a part of my life and that's going to change and I'm feeling more allowing of that more acceptance of that as I sit here now, but it's something I've been really suffering with in the last few weeks. Just cuz I've been pushing back on their real hard. I have not been wanting to like, yeah. Yeah. I've recognized for myself the amount of of enjoyment and pride that I've had and the way I'm able to speak and I've been up I've had that for a long time and I recognize that that's part of my Persona part of the Persona. I like to project out into the world and that that's going to be changed.

31:33 Your verbally articulate man.

31:37 Thank you at end. And I enjoy the ability to not to employ the occasional verbal flourish, but that's probably going to be a thing of the past. So that's been an opportunity for me to think. Well, what does that really mean? What is that? What part has that really played in my life? And what will that be such a big thing to give up in a while. I wouldn't choose to give it up. It looks like I'm going to so, you know, I've been joking that will maybe thinking a little more and talking a little less could you know could work out for the better? We'll we'll see about that. But but again, that's probably an important lesson that this thing that I've been so proud of probably be no been annoying to you know, some of my friends with over the over the years is that is going to change and there's going to be a different life and a different way of

32:37 Me expressing myself as we go on into the future. So maybe that will be something that I'll Pine for and maybe it won't maybe it'll be a burden that's lifted. Maybe I'll be able to save more important things and even if the words come out a little slurred they'll be just as valuable for me to say and for others to hear. Yeah. I just think you're being incredibly Brave about this and wish I could have as much courage as you do.

33:11 Well, thank you and Ian if the shoe were on the other foot, I think you might find your yourself into this in the same in the same situation night. I really do. I mean I got these lessons have been very valuable. They've been difficult but they have been very valuable and it's hard to say that I don't regret having gotten cancer, but I can say that I'm I'm glad that I've been able to glean from it what I have that part has been worthwhile. Yeah, you could have been spending the last 18 months as you sometimes said helping insurance companies count their money in living in hotels around the United States.

33:56 I would have been you would have been no would have been and this whole experience of that. I've had of watching you.

34:06 Deal with with your cancer. I wish we wouldn't have had the end of a sea that we've enjoyed and I wouldn't know you in the way that I do not true. That's true.

34:17 And I do you know, I do miss the interaction with my colleagues and I do miss the you know, being part of a dynamic business environment solving helping clients solve interesting challenging business problems. I do miss that but that's not what I had right now. I have something else and and I'm enjoying I'm enjoying what I have and so there doesn't seem to be a place on the plate for regret there just seems to be a recognition that what's here is here and and we make the best of it and and we move forward in and there are there good things to be drawn from pretty much any situation is sort of out playing out.

35:04 Mark how did you first know that you had an effective voice?

35:08 I don't know.

35:10 I don't know. I mean, I've always always like to sing when I was a child. I was saying at church and in this school. Choruses and stuff.

35:19 I just I don't know how I did.

35:28 I've always liked to sing. I don't think my wife thinks I'm a very very good singer. So I mostly stick to myself but I like to speak. You know, I'm not too terribly shy about speaking in front of other people and I I sort of like the hold forth. My wife says I you know, I adopt a consultant mode from time to time and try to persuade people that to that maybe I have answers that I maybe don't have or some sort of groping my way toward but in a very authoritative fashion, I don't experience you as being a big gas pack though. I mean there's a maybe it's that have a kind of gas bag switch that can can get thrown. I've I've never really thought of you is being in that camp the the Diamond approach work that we do tend to be pretty humbling for me. So there's not a lot of that not a lot of opportunities for me to come off as knowledgeable or or no.

36:24 I have anything to tell anybody else when we're right when we're doing our Diamond approach work.

36:35 Hot know I I I think I like I'll pass on that one, but that's that's an idea. Maybe I'll come back and sing a little bit later. I was just thinking of our our friend the Chipmunk there in my little backyard meditation space and he doesn't well it's not good that he doesn't have a voice. He hasn't he would still enjoy his Sunbeam. He was still hiding his little hole and the leaving scene of the Seas that fall out of your rear upper cheaters, which is probably why it's as bad as he is.

37:31 So if you wish it occurred to me that you might want to State now before this procedure should have been a simple couple of sentences. What do you think your voice as it is has meant you up to nap because later you'll know whether you agree or disagree. Well, I think it's it's been a really effective tool. It's been an effective tool for me to express myself. It has been a source of Pride and it's certainly been a source of enjoyment. I enjoy being able to speak way I can and I enjoy being able to have the interactions with my friends that

38:14 The guy has afforded me and I love the way that I can hear parts of my voice and remind me of what my father's voice sounded like or my mother's voice sounded like another antecedents in my family certainly that I can that I can identify and even the different accents that I've sort of adopted living in different parts of the country are part of that as well. So it's it's so I guess in some ways it it's part of my history and a vessel for some of the history that I have left and the way that in other words that I've learned the phrases that I've learned the the the things that I say that I say because my father said they're more my uncle said they're more my grandfather said them or my mother or my grandmother. Those are those are things that that that bring a smile to my face when I think about him.

39:16 Yeah, one thing we have in common is that we both grew up in Oklahoma and you know, I've often wondered if I don't know when we were 15 or 17 what we would have sounded like back down cuz we both lived in plenty of other places where some of the raw edges about Oklahoma speech has been smoothed out. Shall we say, that's true. That's true.

39:42 Well, thanks Andy. I really appreciate you carving out some time for your busy day to you to come talk with me about this is why I appreciate it a lot. Thank well. I appreciate Mark you're inviting me to take part in this with you. It's been an honor.