Barbara Brown-Johnson and Michelle Lane

[00:00] MICKEY LANE: Two.

[00:03] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: I'm Mickey Lane, age 51. Today's date is Monday, May 16 of 2022. And we're in the Ozarks region of Missouri. The name of my interview partner is Barbara Brown Johnson, and she is my former executive director and colleague.

[00:20] MICKEY LANE: My name is Barbara Brown Johnson. I'm 70 years old. Today's date is Monday, May 16, 2022. We are in the Ozarks and around the Springfield region. The name of my interview partner is Mickey Lane, and we have known each other as coworkers for 20 years.

[00:45] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: So, Barbara one of the things I wanted to ask you, you've been retired from the Child Advocacy center for a few years now. Just a few years. But I wanted to ask, during your time at the advocacy center, your career working to end child abuse, to respond to those who have been victims of child abuse, what most surprised you over the course of your career with the child Advocacy center?

[01:13] MICKEY LANE: You know, Mickey, one of the things that constantly surprised me was the number of children that needed service. When I first came to the CAC, we were seeing maybe 150 children. And it just seemed like overnight we were seeing hundreds and hundreds and hundreds more children. And we needed more buildings, we needed more money, we needed more staff, and we had to supply those just to keep up with the demand for all the children that we saw. And I don't think, I don't know if that demand has slowed any, but it certainly had not when I left. The other thing that really did surprise me a little bit was when I started working legislatively. And it shouldn't have surprised me because legislators are just people. But there are so many folks that really don't believe that child abuse is as prevalent as it is. And they have heard, you know, their nephew's story or their neighbor's story about how the child abuse investigator came to their house and stole their childhood. You know, when you got to know them, they would thankfully call you and ask you about those things, or, you know, when you were at the Capitol, they would call and ask, or they would ask you about those situations. And even though you gave a very, very cogent response to why, you know, here's how the system really works. There was always just this skepticism that I felt, sadly, that didn't go away all the time.

[03:24] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: So how do you think the. If it has, how do you think the community response changed at all from when you started to when you retired to even what you hear today when it comes to child abuse, children in general, and supporting and protecting them in our community?

[03:47] MICKEY LANE: I think that one of the things that our community's response changed is we. That's my phone. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Three, two.

[04:09] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: So along with that, talking about what you saw and working with the community in general and just speaking with legislators and things, how do you feel like the community's response to child abuse and neglect has changed, both at the maybe state level, but also just even here within our community, if any at all?

[04:31] MICKEY LANE: That's a great question. I think that the community's response really did change. I think locally, we made it our business to make sure it changed. Our fundraising team worked tirelessly to make sure that we were the go to place, unquote. If there was a story about child abuse, if there was something that someone needed to know, they made sure that the media came to us and that helped with what we were talking about before, that helped with fundraising and writing grants and those kinds of things. And it really gave us some awareness of what. What we should and could expect from the community.

[05:35] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: Okay, so what do you think needs to change to help even reach more people within our community? How can we do it better?

[05:44] MICKEY LANE: Well, I think that statewide there absolutely could be a more coordinated approach. I know that the Springfield CAC took a very broad view, not just of our region, but we were actively statewide in making sure that every area of the state had those kinds of services for children. And we were fortunate to have been at the table, if you will, when that first began. Nothing is perfect. But we can say that the vast majority of the places in Missouri that children and their families don't have to drive more than an hour to get to a child advocacy center for services, even that is too far for some families. But from the way it used to be, that is much, much better.

[06:58] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: Yeah, that's so true. So when we think about that, just improving access is what I hear you saying, because gas is expensive, but not even just gas, just time off from work, missed time from school, trying to change maybe community's impressions of understanding that it's difficult as a caregiver to support your child through the process.

[07:23] MICKEY LANE: And of course, we wrote lots and lots of excuses, if you will, for, you know, dads taking off work or moms taking off work. And we hoped that that helped.

[07:34] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: Right.

[07:35] MICKEY LANE: And investigators can sometimes help with that as well. You know, families are also somewhat hesitant to identify themselves as their child was a victim. So that's kind of a two edged sword.

[07:54] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: Right? The stigma that goes along with that. Yeah.

[07:57] MICKEY LANE: Right.

[07:57] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: So looking back over your two decades at the child advocacy center. What do you think is or was the hardest part of the work that the child advocacy center in general did? Like, what made it hard?

[08:18] MICKEY LANE: I would say all of it was hard, but I think the hardest part, and I didn't even have to hear it on the same level that frontline workers did. But I think that hearing the stories of the children, so many of them were very similar, but it just seemed like the longer I worked there, the worse the stories became. And we often talked about, well, was that because we're so much better at asking questions and that's why we're getting that more gruesome detail? And that certainly could have been it. The other thing that I think was really hard was to take care of your staff. And a few years before I left, a couple of years before I left, we started talking about compassion fatigue and how we could combat that in staff, and we all knew that it was an issue, particularly if you worked a really bad case, that you would have coworkers taking care of each other, which is great, but you still have to get it out. You can't keep it bottled up inside.

[09:53] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: Mm hmm.

[09:54] MICKEY LANE: A co worker is kind of the only person that you can talk to about that because you can't take it home and talk about it. Right.

[10:01] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: Do the confidential nature. Yeah. Yeah.

[10:04] MICKEY LANE: So I think those were some of the more difficult things that we dealt with.

[10:12] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: So when you, when you look back again, you've now that you've been away from the caca, from the child abuse world and seeing how, you know, how the impact that we have had, what are you really most proud of and be honest about what you're proud of?

[10:40] MICKEY LANE: Well, I'm proud of lots of things. I am very, very proud of the way we changed the system in responding to child abuse victims. I think we did a good job of that. We weren't always successful with that, and that's the hard part to swallow. But we can only do what we can only do. I'm also really proud that I think I hired really, really good, caring people. But the two edged sword, again with that is when you get sensitive people who love children, that can backfire. I mean, they can really take it to heart. And you've got to, I can remember us talking about this. You have got to have some kind of thick skin, not so thick that it can't get through because that's not good, but a thick enough skin that you can go home and sleep at night and not, hopefully keep you from sleeping and interacting with the children that you have and the family that you love. And there is that balance.

[12:21] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: So proud of the changes and the services and people that you placed in positions to be able to provide those things.

[12:31] MICKEY LANE: Yeah.

[12:33] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: So this is a random question that I added just because I think a lot of times when we talk from the nonprofit side and working child abuse and neglect, we do a great job focusing on our services that we provide for children and families at the child advocacy center. But what do you think from the perspective of child victims? What do you want people to know about the criminal justice system and its response to children and teens who have been victimized?

[13:07] MICKEY LANE: I think there is a good way to do it. The worst thing has happened to that child and family. And I think previously the system said, oh, gosh, we got a conviction. This person's going away. We all did a great job. Pat each other on the back, and they may totally forget that that person that is going to jail is the father or grandfather or cousin of the little girl who testified can't feel good. That will never feel good to that child. So we have to also make sure that the child has that trauma focused therapy as a follow up. If we don't provide that final step with the therapy, we may as well not do it.

[14:17] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: So ensuring that there's two paths, the path towards justice and the path towards.

[14:21] MICKEY LANE: Healing, it's got to be there. Both of them does. Otherwise, we know this statistic that if there's not appropriate intervention, then children who have been victimized once are more likely to be victimized again. And they've got to have that mental health intervention to make sure that they build those boundaries and the adults around them know how to protect them better if that was an issue. But that's one of the things that I think has to be there as well.

[15:07] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: So I've asked you a lot of questions. What kinds of questions do you have for me?

[15:18] MICKEY LANE: I want to know. What do you want the community to know and understand about child abuse? That's a big question, but you do a lot of education, so what is it that you think the community needs to know and understand?

[15:36] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: I think kind of like what I heard you say before about when you're working with legislature, you know, members and serving our constituents, that we shouldn't be surprised. But yet I still am constantly, consistently surprised with what people don't know and people that you would expect to know, those who work with children in their profession, or even just educated people or just educated people. And what I want people to know is that this has never been, will never be an issue that you can point to one sect of society and say, there's where the problem lies. One of my big aha moments was realizing that a lot of people think that it only happens in those families. And when, I mean, those families uneducated, those on the lower socioeconomic scale, those who look different than I do, their faith is different, their education is different, so on and so forth. And it shocks me that in this day and age, that people still want to insulate themselves with that false information, give themselves that false sense of security. I think one of the biggest injustices that we received, at least growing up, and still something you see still being said to kids and families is beware of strangers. And before it was the stranger on the street, now it's the stranger online. But as the World Wide Web has become such a part of every facet of our daily lives and our children's lives, who's a stranger? You know, you're signing up for something online. All your forms are online. You're contacting. You know, if you're trying to get a job as a teenager, everything is done online. And so you're reaching out and you're talking to strangers online, and parents do, too. Dating, online, college application. So it really doesn't make sense to say, don't talk to strangers anymore. Now, in today's time period, as it did as a protection of abuse, I really want people to know that it's everybody's responsibility. It's not just the school's responsibility or just the parents responsibility or just law enforcement or child advocates responsibility, that it is each individual, whether you have children, have had children, work with children, or don't. You were a child. And we all have this responsibility of being able to learn how to step outside of our comfort zone to protect a child. It's still something that amazes me that people are much more willing, and you know me, I love animals, but that people are much more willing to protect an animal than they are a child. And how we still have to have a child say what's happened to them to protect them, but we don't have to have an animal say what's happened. We can use our common sense to see that a child is in a bad situation, just like we can see when an animal. So I think, for me, I just want the community and society to know that children are still at highest risk for abuse and neglect. We have the highest infant mortality rate of any advanced country. And I just think that that's something that we can't stop focusing on because it sounds so cliche, but they really are our next future. They are. And if we're not dealing with the problems that impact them now, we definitely will be as we've seen in the future. So that's just what I want people to.

[19:49] MICKEY LANE: Mickey do you still hear people saying, and I know I heard this a lot when I was younger, just tell the child not to let, quote, unquote, let anyone touch them on their bathing suit area. Do you still hear that? And if so, what's your response?

[20:13] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: So, yes, I still do hear people things. I still hear people say, educated people say that children lie about abuse all the time. False. They do not. We know that both in practice, but also research that when the allegation comes from a child, it's about 90% to 98% likelihood that it's true. About 48% of the time, a child will deny real abuse happening. Right. So I still hear people that don't believe that and commonly spread that, that you have to protect yourself from the false allegations of a child. And yes, that real abuse a child would tell immediately that a child could have just said no and not let an adult or older, more powerful or manipulative youth do those types of things. And it's just in such, just the opposite of how most children and teens are raised, to be able to tell somebody no in that fashion is just ridiculous, especially when you're not thinking about the grooming, manipulative techniques. And now, again, with the Internet, things that you haven't had to see, that we are seeing more now is there's this, like, VR type of abuse. So it's not actual physical touching where the perpetrator's asking the child to touch them, but through this virtual world. But it's just as real because these kids and teens have grown up in this virtual type world. So the emotional impact and the harm is just as significant as those that are in the same room when that's happening.

[22:04] MICKEY LANE: So what do you. How do you know that you've made an impact through your work?

[22:13] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: Some days it's still hard. I mean, now, I've been there 22 years in October, and, you know, it's like a pendulum swing sometimes where you feel like we take two steps forward and we take two and a half steps back, and I really feel like that there is some of that that's going on. So today may not be the best day to ask me about how I know I've made an impact, but we have started a new program that we always wanted to do more of whenever you were there as executive director, and that is our prevention initiative within the schools. And we did. We did see disclosures come out of kids being told, hey, you know, if somebody makes you uncomfortable or if this is what abuse is, and if that happens, it's not okay. And you can tell someone. And we did see kids who are talking about things that had happened, like we would expect, typically months or years ago, and they're just now realizing that that's what happened. But giving them the freedom and permission to tell is really what it can come down to. So we know we've made an impact in that way. And just like you were saying, we talked about how the numbers kept increasing, and definitely until Covid, our numbers were still on that same trajectory. Whether the reports did not go down in our region, and I think that has a lot to do with the mandated reporting initiatives that our agency, as well as others have been a part of for years. But reports to us went down, and I think that has to do with staffing, adequate staffing, and pressures from different agencies on cases and caseload and case timeframes. And this isn't going to make your Monday happy, but the cases, the severity of the cases has definitely increased. Why do you say that again? Is it because we ask better questions? Theory could be that some cases are not getting, are getting reported, but maybe not identified at the level that they should be as early as they should be. So maybe we're not hearing about them until things are, they're not being referred until things are at such a level? Or are we, as a multi disciplinary team, getting better at collecting the information, doing better in the forensic interview and the medical exams? I don't know the answer, I think.

[25:02] MICKEY LANE: Do you see a relationship between things that are happening outside of the family that impact the family, like unemployment and illness or stock market issues? Or do cases go up during those kinds of occurrences?

[25:21] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: Mental health has been definitely impact on mental health of the youth. We're seeing a lot more of the suicidal ideation. So those normal coping mechanisms, in part, I think, have been overwhelmed. And so maybe kids and teens are telling or it's coming out more in that fashion, but adults are overwhelmed, too. And so I worry about the amount of trauma that we've all gone through during the pandemic and how that tailors how people perceive the weightiness of the abuse or not, if that makes sense. You know, from an education perspective, you basically always wanted to share with educators that probably 30% to 40% of your students have had some sort of traumatic event happen in their life. And probably four of those out of, like, a class of 30 are significant different types. If you think about the adverse childhood experiences, the ACES scale. So probably four of those had five or more experiences, which obviously is significantly impactful. Well, everyone in the class has been impacted by Covid. And how many of those have been impacted by a death in the family, which is another type of, you know, trauma? And then add on to that if a caregiver is experiencing their own mental health issues and are using drugs or alcohol to cope through that. I mean, I can definitely see that, but we don't have any definitive research on any of that yet because we're still in the pandemic as we are now, and kids are still experiencing that. So I think it'll still be some time before we know how that's impacted. I think the chaos in the world in general, even outside of the pandemic, has been pretty significant on kids and teens in this generation.

[27:25] MICKEY LANE: I have another question for you.

[27:29] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: Okay.

[27:32] MICKEY LANE: And I've asked myself this question because you and I both worked there for so long. Are you glad that you came to work at a CAC and learned so much about child abuse and trauma, and are you glad that you have worked there and still work there? Or would you have rather had a nice nine to five way less traumatic position where you didn't hear kids sad, sad stories?

[28:10] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: Yeah. You know, it's hard to know because I say this quite a bit, especially when we're onboarding new staff or, you know, trying to explain people different perceptions. I say, I've long ago forgotten what I once didn't know. So. So many things that are just so, like, commonplace for me, or of course, this or what have you. I can't imagine my life any different. You know, as you know, my middle child was eight weeks old when I started at the center, and then my youngest was born while I worked there. My kids are so. My children were four, infant and non existent when I started. And they're 26, 21 and 20 now. So they really don't remember a time when mom didn't work in the child abuse and neglect field. And I can definitely, as a mother, look back and see how that impacted my parenting. I spoke very differently to my children about sex and sexuality and child abuse and those who intend to do harm, both adults, but also people their own age or older, more powerful youth and relationship violence than what was ever shared with me. And my parents did what they knew how to do. You know, they were in high school, in the fifties. It was a different time period when they started raising children than what we saw. And so, yeah, I mean, many times I've thought sometimes my daughter actually just said, maybe you just need to change fields, mom. And I said, what would I do? Because once you know, just how significant of numbers there actually are of children that experience child abuse and neglect, how do you walk away from it? It's not something that I ever found the ability to do. Even when I looked for other jobs, Barbara it was still somewhere in the field of working, you know, working with children. And I thought I knew about child abuse and neglect when I came to work at the child advocacy center. I mean, I was a teacher. I can say I did not learn anything in my programming about child abuse and neglect back in the nineties, early nineties, in my educational programming. But I worked another nonprofit prior, and I'd read books of, you know, survivors and things like that. But it's different sitting in a room.

[30:55] MICKEY LANE: It's totally different. You're right.

[30:57] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: With a child, a teen, somebody who's trusted other adults to hear their experience. And then because the system's response isn't perfect, they're back in that home and they're looking at you like, why should I tell you? I've told others before you. It's just. It's a different feeling. And even those who have ever seen a forensic interview, a recorded one, or watched one, it's not the same. It's not the same impact. There's all these nameless faces and experiences, I think, that flash in your mind, like you were talking about that trauma that's there, that always kind of directs your. Your path and your passion. I've been accused of being too passionate before.

[31:51] MICKEY LANE: There are worse things to be in this field.

[31:55] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: But, I mean, it's. I know it changed me. It changed who I. It changed who I was. But I don't know if it changed who I was meant to be.

[32:05] MICKEY LANE: That's a good way to say it.

[32:06] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: I think it's what I was meant to do.

[32:09] MICKEY LANE: Remember, I always used to say, um, once you know what we know, you can never unknow it.

[32:19] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: Right.

[32:19] MICKEY LANE: No matter how hard you try, you can never wipe that off your brain.

[32:25] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: Yeah.

[32:26] MICKEY LANE: And that's not. I'm not trying to be melodramatic with that. That's just the facts. Those are just the facts.

[32:34] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: Yeah.

[32:37] MICKEY LANE: So you would take this with you no matter where you went, correct?

[32:41] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: Yeah. Yeah. And that really did change when I did look at the possibility of going into other professions, you know, there were some that I was like, I don't know if Mickey Lane hotlining every other day is going to how that's going to work, how they're going to love that if I go somewhere else, you know? But there's just some things that. About this job that I just still find purpose in. Not maybe every day, not every aspect of it, but, yeah. So people keep asking me when I'm gonna retire, and I just laugh.

[33:24] MICKEY LANE: You've got a long time if you're trying to stay.

[33:27] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: I know you kind of set the bar of staying high, so what's one to do, right?

[33:36] MICKEY LANE: Stay.

[33:38] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: That's what I hear. Yeah. So do you have any other questions for me?

[33:46] MICKEY LANE: I don't.

[33:49] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: I don't think you can. I've got a couple for you. I still have. Because I just like to jot things down, you know? So what lessons for you as a person? Not our topic. But how do you think it impacted.

[34:05] MICKEY LANE: You.

[34:08] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: Coming from Sparta?

[34:15] MICKEY LANE: I was that small town, hometown girl that didn't really know much at all. I knew it happened because of some incidents that had happened in our church, but it was very much scraped under the carpet because, you know, the preacher would never, ever do that. So I knew that that was a very typical response. Good, bad, or indifferent. That was something that stuck in my mind. And when the first director of the CAC, she and I had been working together on a. On a committee, because I was in early childhood, she called and told me she was leaving the center and that they would be doing a search and that I should apply. And I didn't say this to her, but I thought, she must be crazy. There is nothing about that that I want to know. I just don't think I could handle it. I just don't think I could. Plus, I had two little people at home. And the more I thought about it, the more I thought, okay, I have a steady job now that I really like. Maybe I should just apply and see. And after I got the position, like a month in, I was shell shocked. I mean, I thought, what in the world have I done? I was, you know, I just washing way in over my head. And the topic was not something that I had ever, ever. The breadth of it, I just did not. Was not prepared for that. So, yeah, it changed me. I knew that it was happening, and it was. It was. I remember one of my first word meanings, and we were in a little bitty house.

[37:11] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah, I remember that. With my green folder.

[37:17] MICKEY LANE: Yes, that was your desk. We were in a little teeny tiny house, trying to serve children day and night. And I remember having to take staff, having to take one of the parents out on the front porch to talk privately. And I thought, this does not feel right. It just does not feel right. So the next board meeting, I went to the board and I said, we are out of room. I don't know what we need to do, but we're just out of room. And much to my surprise, they said, barbara, we need to do a capital campaign. And I thought, what in the heck is a capital campaign? Well, I learned very quickly what it was, and we did at least two more, maybe three more during my tenure. But, yeah, it changed me. And I always told folks I grew into that position. I did not have the skills starting out to do what I needed to do. But as the center grew, I grew and developed more leadership abilities, not as many as I probably needed to have. But, yeah, I'm kind of like you. I learned so many things because of this position being put in my way, so to speak, that I can't imagine that I could have worked anywhere else for 20 years.

[39:09] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: Yeah.

[39:10] MICKEY LANE: And felt as good about it.

[39:15] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: Yeah. So just thinking, like, kind of in closing, what do you hope for the child advocacy center for the next 20 years? What are your hopes for it?

[39:33] MICKEY LANE: Well, I hope it continues to grow and I hope that the, the current director knows how to do fundraising, and I hope that the evidence based practices will keep, keep the CAC on the straight and narrow. And I know it will. I know we built a good foundation, a really good foundation, and I feel proud of that. And I think that it's something that the next leader or the current leader can really use as a springboard to keep serving kids in a way that they deserve to be served and their families.

[40:29] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: Yeah. Yeah. Kids and teens really do deserve the best services that we can provide to lift them up out of the environments that they've been in, if not physically, then just with that emotional support and mental health support as well. I agree.

[40:46] MICKEY LANE: Yeah.

[40:47] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: Yeah. Okay. Well, anything else you wanted me to know since we haven't seen each other in such a long time?

[40:55] MICKEY LANE: I know. You look good.

[41:01] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: That's too good. It's the mask. It's what makes me look good. Well, this has been great. It's been so long. I quote you a lot. So apparently I'm the historian at the child advocacy center. So people ask me, and when, I don't know, I go to Brenda. But I'll say, well, Barbara used to say all the time, I think one of my favorite ones is, and I'll leave the person's name out, but you'll probably figure out who it. Who I'm talking about. But there was someone, and we were all just kind of hoping that they would come along eventually, a team member. They wanted to go to training again, and I did not want them to go to training. And you say, I'm going to misquote you now. Of course I'm on the spot, but I just remember you saying, you know, all we can do is allow it to happen and hope for the best, because then at least we know they got the right information. What they choose to do with it is on them. And that's something that, especially with doing so much education and prevention, that's just, you know, I wish everyone got it the first time, but that's something that's kept me kind of motivated, of we still need to provide it and just hope that they get the right information.

[42:22] MICKEY LANE: Absolutely.

[42:23] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: And choose to do the right thing, so. But this has been great.

[42:26] MICKEY LANE: It has.

[42:27] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: Yeah.

[42:27] MICKEY LANE: Thank you. It's been fun.

[42:29] BARBARA BROWN JOHNSON: Yeah.