Barbara Michelman and Matthew Hurtt

00:00 I am 54 years old. Today is Thursday, July 30th, 2020. My home city is Alexandria, Virginia. But today I'm in Bethany Beach Delaware and I'm speaking with Matthew OSS partner.

00:16 And my name is Matthew hurt. I'm 33 years old. Today is Thursday, July 30th 2020. I just moved to New Orleans Louisiana from Arlington, Virginia. And Barbara is my OSS partner.

00:34 Life the Bible Matthew. Would you like to start first or

00:41 I'm uncomfortable that I can do that. So I was born in outside Nashville, Tennessee in a suburban community called Murfreesboro. It is in one of the fastest growing counties in Tennessee. I grew up in a two-parent household with a younger sister. My sister didn't decide to go to college. I was the the the one who excelled in school primarily was in the gifted program all through K through 12 and went to the local University Middle Tennessee State University because I wanted to be a teacher I got involved in in a lot of campus activities at the time. I wrote for the school newspaper had a radio show on campus was involved in student government. My parents are both a political and not particularly religious. However, I grew up Southern Baptist and influence from a friend of mine's great-grandmother who would pick us up all the Nae.

01:41 Kids on Sunday and take us to church somewhere along the way in College of the small church, and there was a an internal disagreement and I said in a life is too stressful to add add this into the mix and stopped attending was involved in in politics on campus and then got involved in in conservative politics right about the time Tennessee was flipping from conservative Democrat to Conservative Republican in the legislature graduated in 2009 with a degree in history and political science and immediately moved to Arlington Virginia to work with conservative college students across the country for the last 11 or 12 years or so. I have been organizing groups on campus or in communities that was originally for conservative causes primarily, but increasingly it's for causes like Criminal Justice Reform.

02:41 Issues surrounding poverty issues of community strengthening and building. It's one of the reasons why in the middle of this coronavirus pandemic that I decided to move to New Orleans and in continue on that path to in two or three interesting political points, I ran for local office at the age of 19 at the urging of members of my church Community. I came within 92 votes of defeating a 16-year incumbent and I was a Ron Paul supporting delegate to the Republican National Convention in Tampa in 2012. And I jokingly said I was the one Ben Carson delegate to the Republican National Convention in 2016. However, the background on both of those is that I was part of the Insurgent Grassroots group that was trying to disrupt what appeared to be the status quo or what was going to happen. So in 2012, it was a rules fight against the Romney machine.

03:41 And in 2016, it was a Ted Cruz align fight against the Trump campaign and primarily involved in Republican politics, but I just registered to vote in Orleans Parish, Louisiana yesterday and I registered with no party affiliation. I am passionate at the at the local level about local Solutions and identifying identifying ways Community groups Civic institutions can solve the problems be on government and would consider myself a small L libertarian.

04:16 All right, I will go again. My name is Barbara. I think I see I've been taking lots of copious notes. That's what I do. I'm a writer. So I take notes as I go that'll keep me engaged in our conversation back and forth for small and thank you Matthew for agreeing to do this. I find these kind of conversations fascinating which is what made me become aligned and get involved with make America dinner again when I heard about it and did one of their dinners, so I'd love to talk to you more about that as a conversation goes along backstory on myself raise in rural, Pennsylvania about three and a half hours north of Washington DC and grew up in a labor Democratic political family. I thought it was really interesting. One of the questions said

05:16 When's the first time you ever heard about politics and I can't exactly remember the first time because it's something that was always discussed in my home. My family was Christian and my mom was Methodist. My dad actually grew up worshipping at home. So that was something he was on a small working Family Farm in Rural America World, Pennsylvania one of nine and my mom was one of five on a small farm bigger up about 15 minutes from each other and our house was on my paternal grandparents farm. So I always grew up in the country and I like to say it was a great place to be until we got to be in about middle school. And when you were a teenager you were bored out of your gourd and so there was absolutely nothing to do other than go in the back of the cornfield and drink on the weekends and hope that you didn't get caught by anybody. And so when I am I my dad

06:16 Somebody who really suffered the effects of globalization jobs moving off, you know, like he lost his job. We lived in Coal country. We lived near a plant that was a byproduct of the steel mills in Pittsburgh and some very Rust Belt affect coming out to the rural part of the state. So kind of South Central to Western Pennsylvania, and I can remember sitting in my grandmother's living room and back then kids were to be seen and not heard a different way. Then my husband and I are raising our daughter. She is me at the age of 14 and I must have been exhausting to my parents. So she has an opinion on everything and getting back to when I was that age. I remember sitting my grandmother's living room. She was a huge Clinton supporter. My dad was just I vote Democrat.

07:16 All the time his sisters were Ross Perot supporters. Whoever the other candidate was it was who is running against Clinton the first time trying to like it a loss right now, but just these political conversations were constantly taking place and I found it really fascinating and so, you know political advice from my dad was just about blew just when you go to smoke blue, and I I got interested in politics probably not. I mean, I always had opinions on things but wasn't really interested until after I got out of school. I went to journalism school have my undergraduate and my Master's Degree my parents were

08:06 People who had a high school diploma. So College was really important to my dad especially after seeing he didn't take the GI Bill benefits when he came out of Korea and he really can. I saw what a high school diploma did to limit him in later on in life. So the message from a really early age was education education education, and I said, I want to be a journalist and they were like, okay but not that so it's very funny that you know, my sister got a business degree. She went into business my other sister got a Nursing degree skin nurse my brother chose not to go to school. He's a self-employed business owner now, but he's really struggled with not having a college degree in living still back in rural, Pennsylvania, but I always describe myself as the kid that they didn't really know what to do with is very opinionated argued with my parents about politics all the time exactly. I have the child, but I just

09:06 I'm now and I got a journalist in my Master's in journalism from Temple University in Philadelphia. And I really thought that I wanted to move back home and live in a rural community. I just didn't realize what living in that big of a city had done to change me in the two short years. I was there. So I have this amazing opportunity to work for a small Head Start program in rural Pennsylvania and I saw very much health federal dollars in federal policy making influence local decision-making. I'm so you know Matthew getting back to your work at the local level what you're interested in doing. I'd love to talk to you more about that. My opportunities were really Limited in rural Pennsylvania is so I started looking for jobs in the Washington DC area and I made connections through a rural leadership program that I had been accepted into

10:06 Was funded by the state government of Pennsylvania to train and equip rural people to be leaders and their local communities and that program really just opened up a whole world for me and about a month after I started looking for jobs in DC. I was tired as a lobbyist for a rural family service organization called the National Grange. I am probably one of the worst lobbyists that ever existed because you know when I would go into somebody's office and I would advocate for real education real Economic Development and someone would say, yeah, we're not doing that. I was like, okay. Well, thanks have a good day and fortunately I went into that. They allowed me at that jobs use my medications PR background and so I became a director of communications and worked for a series of national nonprofit organizations for

11:05 My whole career until my daughter was in kindergarten and I quit and I open my own Communications PR shop and so I would say that I have been a lifelong Democrat as the party has evolved as evolved with it our tent just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and you know, that's kind of hard sometimes to get people to coalesce, but I would say I probably identify as center-left to Progressive but I'm someone who really feels committed to compromise. So I think that's it for me. I need to stay on target. So the next question is in there. If one of you could ask it to the other and then vice versa and I'll put in the next one as you get close to the end, okay?

12:05 Okay, so Matthew, I would love to learn about someone who's been kindness to you in your life.

12:12 You know, this is this is actually really challenging question to answer I grew up in a conservative community and one of my first-ever political mentors was a conservative state representative who near the end of her time in the in the general assembly the man with whom she was married came out of the closet and they were they were very close political and personal mentors of mine. I worked on her campaign in 2006 and an as their you know, as the realization that that he was living, you know life is a is a gay man was coming to light. She left him, you know rightfully, so I imagine and I'm insulted his entire or many people in in the political Community around him sort of abandoned him.

13:09 And it was right at the time is is is I was you know facing graduation from University and and I was one of those is my understanding. I was one of the few people who who stuck with him in in in maintain the friendship in I look back over the last fourteen years of our friendship and I've seen him, you know, find a partner with whom he can share his life. They are both hardcore Trump supporters and and and they have provided many many personal and professional and political opportunities for me. You know, my my parents have always been there for me and they aren't they are fantastic parents doing doing everything they could do to support my sister and I but in addition to that that infrastructure of a of a political mentor and someone that I could trust in in in this gentleman, you know, I look I look back and even in a couple of weeks I'll be

14:09 I'm back home and and I will ultimately go in and visit with them and and and stay with him rather than staying at my parents house just because it's it's hectic. So, you know that the opportunities and the kindness that that he has shown over the last fourteen years. It's it's really been a meaningful friendship and mentorship for me. And so I would ask I would ask you a barber, you know, tell me about someone in your life who has been kindness to you.

14:35 I would say probably my

14:40 My Sunday school teacher when I was in kind of the teenage young adults groups at our world United Methodist Church. I don't think I ever heard Alma Davis speak above a whisper. She always had kindness just all of her actions all of her actions and I and I really think about that in terms of I still choose to affiliate with the United Methodist Church, but it's a lot more liberal and Progressive than the one that I grew up in with this when it comes to the theology, but she just was kindness personified and I just felt every everything I was struggling through as a teenager in mine and family with you. No really trying to figure out who I was and not having

15:40 Really good relationship with my dad at the time. She was just the safe place to go that was always love and kindness and she has always personified for me when I think about people who I say embody the teachings of Jesus. That's who she was.

16:00 So Matthew next question is earliest memory of politics student council in 5th grade, but I don't think that I'm going to reframe the question. I think the the most meaningful early memory in politics was growing up in in the Southern Baptist Church gentleman, who is now Pastor by the name of Terry Frazier used to impress upon me the the wisdom and teachings of Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh. And and I knew that the fiscal policies were were right where I wanted to be but there was something something amiss about some of those and I discovered a gentleman by the name of Clarence who owned a small business right about that time gave me a copy of Frederic bastiat the law which illustrates sort of what I believe to be the proper role of government to protect citizens from Plunder either from government or from our neighbors and and it was

17:00 And there that I said, you know, this is really be the Cornerstone of my political philosophy. Is this notion that that individuals exist to work in concert and in in congregation with one another to work together to to solve problems in and we established government to prevent prevent us from harming one another but increasingly government uses its power to harm us. I am so that is that is probably the Cornerstone of my of my political philosophy and it's the most meaningful early political memory. So they asked you know, what is what is your earliest memory of politics growing up in a in a in a home where you know labor and in voting was so important Mother's house. My paternal grandfather died when I was about four years old. So I and my dad and his family decided they were very religious and I was very

18:00 Affirmative on the conservative side of Christianity, but my grandfather had chosen to start this kind of worship service at home, which is really weird to me as a kid because my mom and dad had an agreement that she would marry my dad if she didn't have to go to home first and throw it was if we have kids. I'm raising them in the Methodist Church and so on Sundays we split ways but in the afternoon, sometimes we would go to that grandmother's house and I just remember all the adults talking politics my aunts my uncle's my grandmother. She was the biggest Bill Clinton supporter. I think I've ever met. She lived to be 94 years old. She lives through his first term and I I miss her every day, but I'm glad she didn't live to see Bill Clinton second term. So because that would have broken her heart, but she was always watching C-SPAN. She was watching CNN

19:00 Horse with antiquing and so it just was it was just politics was always part of of that kind of extended family Circle and I'm curious Matthew. Why did you want to do this interview today?

19:17 That's a great question and it actually goes back to your comments about make America dinner again, you know, like like you I'm I'm really over sort of the the hyper partisan rhetoric primarily in a pushed out through through cable news. And in the headlines in what I found living in primarily liberal communities, you know, I just moved from Arlington where 83% of people voted for Hillary Clinton. I did not end. So when trying to craft a policy majority, I knew that there had to be compromised and that I had to listen to different viewpoints in a way that where we could find commonality. One of the things that you mentioned is is above your father's service in Korea. My my paternal grandfather actually served and died in Korea and he was listed classified as missing in action in my grandmother in her letters. I've seen her letters to the Department of the army, you know where she's asking about the whereabouts.

20:17 What's a PFC Albert hurt and I can't imagine what it was like for her to to be to be you know, unknowing about where her husband wasn't and she never remarried to my dad grew up as to the the only child to a single mother of a widow of war and and I think about the early days of the Iraq War and my grandmother would just cry and cry and cry because she knew what was you know, many of those men and women will not return home to their spouses. And so it's in the humanity in the humanization of of public policy putting a face to the to the the arms and they helpfulness that we can experience on on both side and and figuring out those Solutions based on based on our commonality and working through difference is I just don't think that that that at the national level we can have a discussion that leads to you know, reasonable Solutions in compromises. And so that's why

21:17 I'm engaged in in make America dinner again and storycorps and braver angels. And in any of these these outfits any of these efforts to bring people to the table. Why why did you want to do? What did you want to participate in this interview today reasons? I think that I can remember because I'm old enough when I came to Washington DC. There were moderate Democrats conservative Democrats the blue dogs and there were moderate and Liberal Republicans and I remember how policy was debated legislated bills and there were no compromises that were put together and I just feel that we have a system right now that we have the extremes of both sides. We have the far left. We have the far right we have so

22:17 Polarisation and I just it's toxic, right? I mean I think about my immediate family they argued and fought the Sybaris lie for their own beliefs. I mean, you know my aunt she said she was going to support Ross Perot and I thought my grandmother was going to you know excommunicated from the family for doing that but they didn't, you know, I mean they were family and they loved each other their differences of opinion and they could argue respectfully and when I first came to Washington DC and work for the agriculture committee, so I went from the nation smallest which was the National Grange to the largest American Farm Bureau Federation and I was editor of their weekly newspaper, which was widely read it on Capitol Hill because agriculture is a huge policy and I just remember you not going to the house committee hearings and I just over the years just saw those middle.

23:18 Disappearing and so the center doesn't see it that we don't seem to have a political Center anymore. And so I just really believe in compromise. I mean I have believed that people should fight very vociferous link for what they believe and the causes that are important to them. But I think when it comes time to actually get something done for the American people we should have a representative democracy where we actually compromised and I think that's become that's become like a four-letter word. Right? It's just because nobody wants to compromise anymore. Everybody just wants what they want. And so did you do this interview is really for me. I don't like how I think my friends group. It's overwhelmingly liberal progressives feminist. I think everybody should be a feminist but that's a whole other conversation. But you know, I just I really struggled over the last 4 years to watch what happens in conversations online.

24:18 And that's why I really like to make America dinner again because I feel in such a short time. We've lost the ability to have debate respectfully to listening to each other to see each other as human beings first versus political enemies. It's scary to me. I don't like that. I just I really think it's a dangerous thing to have happen and I think gerrymandering contributes to it. And so I want to be part of a solution versus a problem I guess.

24:55 You're on your own unless you need me to put in a question. Okay, so Matthew, I will ask you for me. I mean, I've seen this happening. It's not just the last four years right? It's it's not just since the November election. I've seen this happening over the course of my time in DC that the conversations and gotten more toxic mentioned cable news. I don't watch cable news at all. I refuse I just think it's it's just it's every everybody as a commentator not a journalist anymore. So what do you feel? What do you feel contributes to all this toxicity in our political life? And what do you think is going to turn around can it be turned around isn't an easy or hard thing? So, I'm the I'm the kid in the room full of horse.

25:55 You are saying there's got to be a pony in here somewhere and and in so I'm the eternal optimist. I I think that a major contributing factor and it's a double-edged sword is the proliferation social media. I think that dehumanizes us Lord allows us to easily dehumanize one another because we are behind computer screens and the other person is an avatar borrower or somebody that we don't have to face in in person. That's why I think you know events like make America dinner again like this one and others are so important because it is it is incredibly hard to say something a survey corps nasty to someone that you are sitting in front of especially someone who, you know something about them on a personal level before you dig into the political and so I I I largely refrain from engaging in political discourse online. And in fact most of my if I wait into something it is usually lighthearted.

26:55 Rolling where I'm where I poke fun at all sides just because I don't think there are productive conversations online. For example, I used to write for a local news site in Arlington that is very well read read widely in the community. And one of my first columns was about a County Board member who'd engaged in some unethical activity and one of his former campaign staffers took to Twitter and just started attacking me and and tweeting at at the the outlet and saying what a terrible author I was even know what I would say why Britain was was solid and I said, you know what? I'm not going to engage in this let's meet this was before coronavirus last November last December. Let's meet at a at a watering hole and let's get to know one another and we we met at a place in Clarendon of a bar where the owner is an Irish immigrant who you know, it's it is been easier for him to become a restaurant owner than in them.

27:55 Citizen so that is about our immigration policy and and me and this young man sat and and at the end we didn't agree on everything but he actually tweeted out a selfie of us over drink saying, you know, I don't agree with this guy but he makes some good points and he's and he's a genuine person. And so I think that's something that I want to turn those that you know, those online conversations into in-person conversations because I think that's where we had the greatest opportunity to one understand where the other person is coming from and to figure out our views based on nuanced information, you know, it's it is not it's not wrong to change your mind if you if you get new information about something and in so I think we see that more frequently in person. I'm I'm happy to toss that question back to you. I'm I'm excited about

28:55 It was it was three parts what contributes to to the sort of height and polarization? I said social media is a big contributor in do you see a way to sort of work through that and solve it?

29:09 Absolutely. I think I would say looking at what's happened to journalism. I Look to how how the people who create the news and how content is pushed out. I think social media absolutely the algorithms that if you like something on Facebook, for example, then you're just going to get so much more content that aligns with that and and I do think being behind the screen is kind of be it's the it's on like version of aggressive driving, you know, you can be obnoxious behind your car where you wouldn't do that necessarily to somebody, you know, you wouldn't stalk somebody and walk right up behind them. But you do that with your car, right? If you don't think they're doing what they should be doing and I think online it is really it's it's just so easy.

30:09 Reduce each other to a sound bite but I do look at you know, I don't like what's happened with journalism. And I and I think it goes to when the internet came along newspapers were not prepared to have a financially-sound model to transition into and so now it's clickbait headlines and it's a rush to get a story out because it's more important to be first, then it is necessarily to have the facts. I've really tried to force myself to read a variety of media instead of just have my one lens but I would probably say public radio and public broadcasting or my to go to sources for news consumption, but I've been consuming something every weekend and every day. It's an online newsletter called the dispatch. I don't know if you're familiar with that and that's

31:09 Moore Center right people at David French. I don't know if you know who that is, and he's been involved in that and so I just really try and force myself. I get really frustrated when I see people on the far left of my friend Circle as well as those in the far left put some stuff up and it's like come on, you know, we can't blow up every single second of every single day. I'm not I don't know if I feel that you're an optimist and a pessimist. So I anticipate any and all worst case scenario if things don't go as bad as I think they will then I'm always pleasantly surprised. So my husband is The Optimist and so we balance each other out. So I was like talking about the mess like because I'm much more pessimistic about things. But yeah, I have you heard about Ezra Klein's book. Why were polarized he's the guy who helped start.

32:09 I really want to read that book because really looking into all the social media platforms and the algorithms and kind of like

32:20 They're part of why we're supposed to rise. There's also a until six or seven categories across the political Spectrum in our level of Engagement in in in public discourse in in the how we how we grouped ourselves into the into the tribes and it's you know, it's the same reason we like the football teams that we like or or we we like the authors that we like. It's it's belonging to a community but particularly in this in the in this place where many people in politics believe it's a zero-sum game that if I win you lose then didn't there's no room for compromise and especially if if you think that your political opponent is your enemy then it's much harder to say. Well I can work together with my enemy on something.

33:16 So I guess I should unless you want and I guess I should ask maybe the next question to be to be fair is is there an issue that you've you've evolved on or you've you gain more information in that changed your mind, but you've sharpened your your position on an issue?

33:34 I mean, I think my political beliefs are proud Mike or political beliefs are probably the same as they've always been but I think what I've come to understand is how something may work for me living in Suburban Urban Northern Virginia is not necessarily something that's going to work for Rural remote areas. And so I think about zip code politics a lot and about Taxation and fiscal policy. Probably the biggest issue for me is I I built the bulk of my professional career serving as a national communications director for National. Advocacy. Nonprofit organizations was in public education. And so, you know, I am somebody to I'm

34:33 I'm not a proponent of school choice and vouchers. I am a proponent of charter schools. So I think that's really been something that's been interesting within my party. You know who it's kind of like your your purity test is you have to say you're a hundred percent for public education and I say will charter schools are part of public education and I find that a really difficult conversation to have with a lot of democratic Brian's. I see what happened in education as an evolution of what happened in our society. We are country a nation of people who like choices right? So now we're going to tell everybody in this everybody gets to pick whatever they want for dinner. Everybody gets to you. No pick what they want to do.

35:33 Game on TV where they want to go. Now, you have to just pick the local public school. I do worry about siphoning dollars away from our schools at are in Desperate, you know, like like the kids who can't go to a charter school or can't go to a private or parochial school, for example, cuz they have a single mom who works in One Direction and their school is another so I think about equity in education.

36:08 I grew up in a rural area. There was only a local school. There was nothing else there was no choice and now there's so many options and that works for people who really know how to use the system and have resources but doesn't really work for the people who are stuck with you get what you get. So I really wish there was a way to reform education in a more Equitable way. It's always that really sad and frustrated when I think about Highly Educated families, even if they don't have the economic resources, they find a way, you know, you were in a gifted and talented program are. Our daughter was identified for that as well. So it was like even in our local public schools doors have been opened for her then aren't open for the jenat kids. So

37:05 I think it comes down to for me is I'm willing to listen to Solutions, but I'm kind of the person who says like for this democracy to work. It has to work for the people who don't have connections. You don't have money. You don't have the resources and that's where I just feel like it's that is frustrating to me. I don't know if it's an answer your question. No necessarily sharpens, you know you found a place where you've explored elements of what wouldn't be the Orthodoxy for your info for your political persuasion side with you made the move to New Orleans, and so you grew up in Murfreesboro, and then you move to Arlington and now you're back in New Orleans you miss a earlier but

38:05 What what made you make that move? I would say one of those 45% of the reason I moved to New Orleans is probably coronavirus. I think I always previously in a position for a nonprofit Educational Foundation where I was public facing the director of external relations. Well in the last 4 months, we haven't had external relations. We haven't had conferences. We haven't, you know, my my travel schedule was 80% travel across the country, you know every week I was in a different city and that all came to a halt in mid-march and so it allowed me to really consider, you know, consider where I was in my life and end and where I am in this organization. I'm at the same organization. I was at before the pandemic started but but understanding our management philosophy and our our corporate velocity such as it is, I knew that I had to take a leadership role somewhere.

39:04 And I told myself if I moved out of the DC area. I would move to one of two places, Portland, Oregon or New Orleans Louisiana. I have always I feel like I'm always thrived in in Progressive communities even even that with holding the philosophy that I have him being involved. I think one of the challenges here is is I live in a a predominantly Deep South African American Community which is which is different than than any other place even even different than most. You know, Arlington is not a majority African-American Community most of Northern Virginia. And so what are the so to speak what are the cultural or tribal politics of New Orleans that may help me or may inhibit me from getting involved in in local politics you I'm very interested in in figuring that out and it was about time for a challenge. You know, I'd sort of for the last year or so been on autopilot.

40:04 In the last job it it came so easy that I didn't it wasn't fulfilling to the extent that it could have been any more and I am so I immediately jumped into this about a month ago and I have been it's been a challenge every day and it's been it's been awesome and I've had to adjust obviously to the to the tropical temperature we have here steps. So I'm sorry go ahead. And so I would say that's about half of the other elements are just looking for a challenging and looking to move up. I think that I'm able to articulate a philosophy that I have through my employer and and you know, people ask where you see yourself in 5 years and I say solving these problems in a different place and so I'm very happy to and I I made the conscious decision to move to Orleans Parish in the city to be a voter and a taxpayer in a decision maker in the city.

41:04 Other than living in the suburbs where most of my you know, traditional white conservative or libertarian counterparts call home choosing to be in a progressive area and that was really interesting to me because I think if the reverse were true for me, I don't know how I would feel being

41:32 I don't know how I feel right now with the state of things being a progressive Democrat in a a really Conservative Republican area like where I grew up. I think you know what the vote in Arlington in 2016 for Clinton was the vote for Trump where I grew up and so I have a lot of my friends or Democrats that I grew up with who are really struggling there. They feel like they've lost friends. They don't feel like they have anybody that can talk to anymore. So even like they're really struggling right now. So I commend you that I mean, I think that's really interesting that you chose to move somewhere where you knew that you would you would find people with very different political beliefs than you and the

42:28 The decision to move to Portland, Oregon, aren't you glad right now that you're in New Orleans or would you rather be in Portland given what's going on there? So I actually love small D Democratic protest movements my last my last before sewing Arlington. I have participated in the black lives matter protest, but my most recent past protest before that was I was tear gas in Barcelona on the Friday after the Spanish government in imprisoned or sentenced Catalan politician and the cops in Spain if you think if you think tops in New York or in Portland OR Federal authorities are bad the cops in Spain don't care at all. So I was actually in prison is a little bit hyperbolic but I was locked into a bar two nights in a row in Barcelona. I took part in or I at least visited Occupy Wall Street in both zuccotti Park.

43:28 Freedom Plaza in New York and DC in 2010. I was involved in the Tea Party protests, you know before that. I've always been fascinated with with Grassroots movements and end up on the left or right and and have always participated in them at least as a as an observer. And so that's something that that do. You know, I have I'm the guy with spare poster board in my apartment in case there was a protest it breaks out. So I've lost count the number of I'm sure you're like to hear that but the number process I've been to In the last 4 years so and I was at the women's March in January and my big my big thing is is so how do you turn on rest or frustration into political action? And that's always my you know, the way I process these movements is okay. What what action will items? Can you turn these?

44:28 Tutto to create policy Solutions. So what do you think? What do you think about that moving forward right now? I mean, I feel there's a protest a day in DC in the last 4 years. So in every major city right now there been protests a day or how many weeks do you feel I guess it's just I'm curious you are an optimist. So looking at everything that's happening. Do you get feel hopeful about all of this all of the protest in what's happening? Do you feel hopeful about where we can take our democracy. Moving forward? I think the solutions right now. It's it's it's around black lives matter and what are the policy Solutions around overcriminalization policing due process sentencing and re-entry. Those are the five sort of themes of the criminal justice system and I think more and more increasingly Republicans and Democrats are working together. You know, we've we've seen it at the federal level with the

45:28 First Step act with which which passed overwhelmingly in both Chambers and the president signed a we've seen it in in in red States and blue States, you know, Texas started a trend in the mid-2000s where they started closing prisons and reforming the criminal justice system and I'm in a place where Louisiana has one of the most Antiquated criminal justice systems with one of the most harsh prisons in in the country. Where at where most of the those incarcerated or African-Americans, you know, where can we find Solutions win in an estate where there is such dark racial contrast, you know on the I-10 corridor from from New Orleans to Baton Rouge and then the more white communities in the suburbs in north. Where is there a Weather policy Solutions and I think for the most part politicians on both sides of the aisle are willing to work together. However, you know, what are the one of the problems with with the red team not giving

46:27 Lutema win and vice versa. So we have to be mindful of that it in in Louisiana to Republican legislature in a Democratic governor, you know, there is bipartisanship. But but not if they're going to allow the other team to get a win before election day. So, you know working through that is is challenging.

46:47 I don't have another question. So so angry if you've got one ready to go that I could I could ask that'll probably put us right at right at time.

47:02 So basically there's one that's what our transformative moments in your life that inform your politics. That's a possibility or you can

47:12 See if there's something that you just talked about that you differ on could because you seem to be agreeing on a lot of things. Is there anything that you do for on that you want to talk about? I bet there's a lot we differ on one of the things that I do is is I try to find commonality first then it makes it easier to disagree but I'm I'm interested in in in your friend group and how are our other of your friends who consider themselves a liberal or Progressive are they actively in its Hardin Northern Virginia? Are they actively seeking opportunities to either entertain other viewpoints or engage with people with whom they don't agree I shouldn't speak for them. But I know when it comes to social media, I have a lot of people who have court on quote sanitize their their friends. So, you know, I can do that. I mean I think in the whole history of having Facebook, I've maybe unfriended 2 people just cuz I was just like he can't close.

48:12 Set stuff and I don't like to like the stuff that you post is really awful. And so I don't want to see that and so now we have to unfollow so it's much more polite, right but I don't know. I mean, I'm I am the person who I sometimes feel like I'm swimming Upstream when I talk about compromise mean it's been with two we're going to get out of the Slate of candidates for the Democratic nominee. And if you were Buddha judge you no supporter or a Biden supporter. You were called a corporate Democrat by the progressives and and the Democratic socialists in the far left, you know, it was it was Bernie or nothing. So I

49:02 I'm trying I mean, I'm really struggling right now and I just I wish that maybe if I didn't live in an area which was overwhelmingly Progressive I would be able to have these conversations.

49:19 I think that we're we're weird because we opted into this and so we're not like most of our friends and info. It's so for people who aren't thinking about or who aren't open to this kind of experience. It's much more difficult to say it to articulate the value of what it means to sit down with somebody that you disagree with that. You can go through life seeing people as just a political party or a political ideology. I think one of the transformative moments for me without having a friend who's part of a group of feminists for life and I was like wait that's a saying like I didn't hear that you're pro-life but that it's a it's an organization and having that conversation with her on why she believes what she believes it was that was really like, I never thought about it that way before, you know, so I

50:15 I just feel we've made so many steps backward and I feel like it's going to take us a lot to move forward but it's like the People Like Us that are kind of in this vocal minority who want to do this. I just wish more people wanted to do this.

50:36 Say thank you, whatever. However you want to say. I really appreciate you wanting to sit down and have a conversation. Thank you so much. It means alot opportunity and I I appreciate appreciate the conversation.

50:52 Thank you, Amy.