Ben Allen and Sara Andrew

00:01 My name is Sarah Andrew. I live in Charlottesville, Virginia. I'm 66. And.

00:08 What was the last question?

00:11 And today is July 29, 2022.

00:17 My name is Ben Allen. I live in Charlottesville Virginia. I'm 35 years old, and today is July 29, 2022. The first question we want to ask is, what made you want to sign up for a conversation? And, yeah, why. So why did you want to come into the studio? I love people. I love their. I was a history teacher. I've always been fascinated by, like, where people's origin stories, where they come from, and then how all the, like, their experience sort of culminate into their views, and I. How they interact with. And so I thought this was a fascinating way to do that.

00:57 And I wanted to come because I watched the documentary raised and realized that I knew a number of the people that were in that documentary. And over the last couple years, I've just wanted to learn more about what life was like in Charlottesville, how racism is a lot more prominent than I thought it was or realized that it was. I've just been very naive, and so I wanted to be able to come here and learn from someone else. Great.

01:29 So before we dive into the meat of the conversation, we always take a minute to ask participants to read a little bit about their partner. So if you'll just take turns reading on that, she can pass it to each other.

01:41 Read out what your partner wrote about.

01:42 Themselves, and then give yourself a few minutes if you want to have follow up questions to know more, we'll give you some time to do that. Okay, so I'm reading Sarah's bio out loud. Okay. I have worked with low income preschoolers for most of my 42 years as an educator, both as a teacher and supervisor of teachers. I retired a year ago. The big turning event for me and how I am now was the August 12 events that took place. It really made me think about racism in the US in general and how deeply it has affected the black community in Charlottesville. It is a complex issue, but I don't know how anyone can possibly say it does not exist.

02:22 All right. Ben was born and raised in Charlottesville. I'm an educator, a teacher, and a principal and an officer in the army reserves. I have two children and a wife.

02:40 The floor is yours.

02:42 So I was curious about what it was like to grow up in Charlottesville.

02:47 Okay. It's interesting. Charlottesville has always been like this small university town. I grew up, actually, not too far from this recording studio on Old Ivy Road and the apartments there. And then my family kind of moved out to Keswick, moved around a lot, but it was always this dichotomy between the university and the city of Charlottesville. I was fortunate to go to uv as an undergrad, as a first generation student. But probably up until my senior year, I didn't even realize that UVa was like a place that you went to besides, like, sporting events at Scott Stadium and U-Hall But I would say it's like, you know, most people prior to even, you know, you mentioned August 12, had no idea what Charlottesville was or is, unless you were from Virginia, right? Like, it wasn't like, a nationally known place. And so even to the extent that most people, when you say you're from Charlottesville, they're like, oh, like Charlotte, North Carolina. I can't tell you how many times that's happened, but it was just, you know, I have, like, fond memories growing up in Charlottesville. You know, my, my father was a police officer. My grandmother was the librarian at the downtown library for her entire career. So, you know, I was fortunate enough to go to pretty good schools. And I think it's just been. It's been interesting, I guess, just like, you know, just the world is opened up with access to different places and being able to look at them and things go on the news. People have a very interesting perspective of what Charlottesville is that have, like, never been here. So. Yeah, yeah. How long, how long, you said in your career, mostly working with preschoolers. How long have you lived in Charlottesville?

04:26 I've been here 35 years. When I was in college, my boyfriend's grandparents lived up near Afton so we used to come up. I went to school in Tennessee. We used to come up, come into Charlottesville to the burger King on the downtown mall, get dinner, and then go out to see his grandparents for the weekend. And after I got out of school, I lived in South Carolina and then went back to Florida for a while and hated it. So I thought, oh, it's like Charlottesville, I'll move up there. And I never had planned on staying anywhere. I never planned on really settling down in one place because I like to move. And after I got here, it was just home. I can remember as a little kid driving up 81 up to Pennsylvania to visit my grandparents and going through the Shenandoah Valley and thinking, this must be the most wondrous place to live. And it's so cool. I still get that feeling when I drive through the mountains. I just love it. But August 12 really revealed a different side of it for me, I live just less than a mile from the park. And it really was just a profound event in my life to see that anger and hatred and violence, and I just. It just sickened me. It still sickens me when I think about it. But it's interesting because I. I worked at C. Johnson, and then when the preschool center was at Jefferson, I was there, and then I ended up at Clark. And I loved those kids. I just loved working with those kids. You know, most of them were low income, and to get into their homes and look at some of the family dynamics that were going on. But then also after I saw rage, that was pretty impactful for me to see people that I've worked with since I moved here and that they have no home to go back to. Like, I live in Florida. My brother bought my mom's house after she passed away. And I can go home. I can go home, and they have no home to go to. Like, that. And that just. That made me so sad and so angry. It just. That's when I signed up for this, because it was just like, it's so wrong.

06:58 Yeah. Raised is. I haven't actually seen the full film yet. I've seen, like, snippets, and I know Lorenzo and Jordy pretty well and do some work with them even now. But it's also, for me, it's fascinating, the whole story. Cause it's so personal. As I was born and raised, I'm, like, multi generational from Charlottesville. My grandfather, my great great grandfather, actually owned one of the first black businesses in Vinegar Hill. It's now currently, like, chaps ice cream, which is kind of a cool connection. But, you know, so a lot of my family, when the urban renewal happened in the 1960s, moved to, like, the star Hill area. A lot of them moved to West Haven and that area. And so it's such, like, a personal story that I often say when people ask me about my story as, like, a first generation college student with multiple degrees, I say, like, you know, I was just born in 1986. My family's been here for hundreds of years, but I'm the first one to go to college. Like, there's been systems at play that have prevented that. Even my grandparents, as I talked to them, like, my grandparents went to a segregated high school here in Charlottesville. And it's just, like, so fascinating to always hear, like, you know, we're one, two generations removed from that, and we're still feeling the impacts of it across everything, you know?

08:17 I can only imagine. It's like I said before, like, I feel like I've been so naive. And I think that the course that our country has taken over the last four years, five years, has really made me think, my gosh, you know, my. My niece, who's, like, my daughter has two young children. They're biracial. Her husband is black. And I think, what kind of world are they growing up in? You know, what kind of world have we left for them? And it just. It makes me sick and angry and really, really sad because those children are so precious to me. And I think about, you know, her two year old already has been singled out for being aggressive in a preschool on his first day. My niece is extremely white, blonde hairdouse, real pale skin, and she works with the equity and diversity office in Prince George's county and is doing some wonderful things there. And I think, why couldn't Charlottesville be like that? You know? Why couldn't they really bring issues out to the forefront to people instead of sort of whitewashing everything or not being willing to talk about things?

09:38 Yeah. Do you think that I'm curious, like, in the conversations that you have with, like, your circle of folks that, you know, you said you were 65 years young.

09:48 66.

09:49 66 years young.

09:50 Thank you for saying that.

09:51 Yes, absolutely. Like, there's some, like, lived experience. If, you know, as a history teacher, I'd always, like, talk about, like, you know, things that happened in the seventies, sixties, you know, there's, like, lived experience there, even since August 12. Do you feel like folks are still naive, or do you have, like, what I'm curious of, like, what things sort of came to the forefront that maybe didn't come before? Cause everyone's just, like, busy living life and you don't take the time to look up.

10:15 I think that I took August 12 very personally. I can remember turning on the news, and because I had told my boss, who I was working up at Madison at that point, had told my boss, I said, I'd kind of like to go down there just to see what it's like. And he said, I don't think that's a good idea, because I remember when the Ku Klux Klan came the month before, and I was terrified and my brother was visiting, and I said, we have to get out of town. And it ended up when I watched the news, like, they look like a bunch of clowns, really. And I sort of thought that's what that was going to be like. And then Friday, driving home, I heard there was trouble at Walmart. And then watching the news Friday night, I just cried and cried and cried. And so I thought, no, I'm not going down there. And I could hear the helicopters overhead, and I can remember my boss texting me late in the afternoon saying, are you okay? And I'm like, yeah, I'm fine. I just, you know, stayed home and heard the helicopters. And then when I turned on the news, I just remember falling on the floor and crying and just sobbing and sobbing and sobbing. And nobody else in my family paid that much attention to it because they're not around here. And so it's funny, because I have one brother who is on the other side, and yet he's a probably my favorite brother. But he, you know, I would talk, like, after black lives matter came up, and they were talking about, you know, how it is for black men being stopped. And, you know, I was talking to him about that one time. He goes, have you ever known anybody that that's actually happened to? And I'm like, yeah, I have. And he's like, oh, you know, so it's kind of like, where are you hiding? But then he lives in a very white county all down there. It's like, I guess all along I've had little clues that things are not good. I worked in a very rural county in Florida, teaching preschool. Special needs kids, actually, they were communication disordered. And one day, somebody. I was getting a new kid, and one of the other teachers came and said, are they putting bulletproof glass in your windows? And I said, what? She said, that kid you're getting is black, right? And I said, yeah. She goes, clan's gonna come shoot your windows out. I was like, what year? I just feel like I was. It was 1986. It was year before I moved up here. And they said, have you never noticed there's no black kids in this school? Have you ever gone to the cash and carry? And there's no black people there. They know not to come on this side of the county. And I was like, I gotta get out of here, because I feel like I'm in the twilight zone. And. But I think because of my job, I've had a lot more interaction and contact with people of color than anybody else in my family, except maybe my niece. And so to them, it's just like, oh, yeah, this is terrible. But to me, it's like, no, this is wrong. The reason I left the city schools was because I had a really severely autistic little boy who was black. He was getting a specialized Aba person to come in and work with him. And my supervisor came and said, you're going to have, have to go back and adjust his Iep because we're pulling her out. There's a kid at the jewish preschool that needs him. And I'm like, what? Well, they're going to sue if we don't provide the services.

13:56 And I'm like, because they had the resources to do that.

14:00 I refused to do it. I refused. I said, no, ethically and morally, I cannot go back and tell his mom, you can't have as much service because he's. And then after that, I just resigned because it was just like, this is just so wrong.

14:16 Yeah.

14:17 And then to see things just sort of build until August 12 rolled around, it still makes me sick. And I still get really scared on August 12.

14:24 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So actually, so I think I had the opposite approach and maybe a little bit more hard headed. But for the Klan rally, I went down there. I went down to the park just because I wanted to see it. And you also have a little bit of like, this is my town. This is my neighborhood. And when you get that news, and we knew about that well before, and so I wanted to see it. And so I was down there kind of front line with people I knew. And it was really fascinating to see the intersections of all my experiences in life in Charlottesville. People I had methadone high school. Heck, some of the city officers that were there were guys I went to high school with, folks I met at UVA, folks I met through work and stuff. And so was down there, same thing. Like, kind of the atmosphere, although tense, was just like, kind of laughable because of, you know, just, it was just like the antics of it. And it was, it was just like a, you know, I thought a powerful showing of, like, of what Charles will truly was as opposed to guys coming in and trying to sort of make a spectacle of it. For August 12, I was actually, my wife was a teacher, and I was painting her classroom before the kids came. And I was listening to, I was watching the live feed on, on twitter that was on CNN. And so I was, like, sitting there and I was like, don't go down there. Don't go down there. And I was just like, no, I'm gonna go down there again. Because again, have that sort of thing. So I went down there by myself and kind of, like, wasn't mixed into any crowd or anything like that. Kind of kept back. It's ironic. A lot of the work I did for the army, the army in DC was like, military police work. And, like, there's a lot of just ways that you go in and you survey an area and you understand, like, where not to go. And so I just kind of back and watch, kind of made my way down, kind of saw two the guys coming from the park, and then saw some, some protesters almost intersecting. I can sort of just watch it happen. I was at the water street park garage, just sort of walked down with them, and then that's when the car crash happened. I was, like, right around the corner from it. So it was one of those things that, like, you know, I have pictures on my phone. I was taking pictures. I was taking pictures of different guys with different weapons, fascinated at people who chose to bring their, like, five year old kids to this. So, like, took a couple pictures of that. And I, my aunt was actually in the van. That was in the car, the first car. If you ever look back at it, there's a van there. My aunt was in that van. And so even in the work I do now, even with education at that time, I was still a principal, and we had our staff coming back the next two days. And so you can imagine that's a pretty big thing to come into. I think I've always used the phrase of, like, that's a flashpoint. Like, August 12 is a flashpoint, but the systems that have been in place that have sort of propagate that and allowed that sort of even thought to occur has been in place since the founding of our country. I always find myself in an interesting position. Like, you know, I'm an officer in the army and took an oath to protect the constitution and, you know, all those good things, I would consider myself very patriotic. But it's almost like when you have, like, a family member, like you said, your brother, right? Like, you love them dearly, but it's like, really, like, you know, like, really. So I always take that approach, like, even with this country of, like, I believe in all the things, but it, I think you said in your bio, like, you would be, like, crazy to think that things are equal and things that have. Things haven't been historically his things haven't been historically wrong, and even moreover, like, things haven't been intentionally placed. That's what I always like. Stress to people is, like, none of this is by chance, like, this is intentional. We talk about the urban renewal that was intentional planning. And so I always, like now just, like, fascinated by folks who still choose to be naive and still choose to think that there's nothing that they can do personally to sort of fix this.

18:33 I can't believe you were down there.

18:35 Yeah.

18:35 I think now looking at it, I'm so angry about it. Still scared. But I think if something like that came around again, I would just go down there and just want to bless them all out.

18:46 Yeah.

18:47 I mean, I walk my dog downtown a lot. And there's the jewish synagogue that's there. And to this day, they still have an armed guard, a guy with an assault rifle that stands outside the synagogue when they're having a gathering. And I just think how sad. You know, it's just sadhesthe, um, and. And hard to believe it's the United States. Like when I was watching it on tv and I saw these guys in the camouflage that, you know, like, their militia. Yeah. And I'm like, I just couldn't believe it was Charlottesville. I'm like, that's not Charlottesville.

19:23 Yeah. And it's, like, wild. It's wild to think that it started with a symbol of a statue. You know, I did a lot of my training at, you know, Lee, Fort Lee, outside of Richmond and stuff, and I've always been someone as part of these trainings. Like in the army, you study all these confederate generals, you study their tactics and stuff. I told you, my grandma was, like, the librarian. Jefferson Madison library downtown. I distinctly remember, like, playing in that park, like, statue looming. And honestly, growing up in Charlottesville, you never thought twice of it. And to find people that care about it so deeply that they would go to the levels that they did, I think that is the thing that shocked me, because none of the racism, the systems, none of that stuff is. I've lived it, known it. That was the thing that you would care so much about. Inanimate object that you would go to those links to protect. It is always the fascinating people. Still today, it's like. It's like, who cares? You know? It's like, why is that such an important thing to you? That's more important to you than, like, the well being of, like, your fellow human, what they look like or not, you know? Yeah, I want to jump in for a second. Ben, you've mentioned your grandmother a couple of times, and one question we like to ask people is kind of going back thinking retrospectively about your childhood or. Yeah. Growing up, if there was someone who had a kind of profound impact on.

20:53 Your life or your belief system, I'm.

20:57 Curious if you could both share if there was someone like that in your lives. Yeah, I was talking a lot. You can go first if you'd like.

21:04 Well, I think a person in my life that really taught me just to care about people was my grandfather. He was just very special to me, and I think I was very special to him. I was. He was. I always felt special with him. And he just taught me that, you know, people are people. You just accept them as they are. It's not. It's not their color, it's not their religion, it's not their race. It's not. They're just people. And you accept them for who they are. And I think that's where I got my desire to want to work with low income families, because everybody was like, oh, no, you don't. You know, was because, you know, I worked with preschool special needs in Charlottesville for 20 years, and then I ended up my career working with head start, supervising the teachers. But I loved those kids. And I thought as I grew older, I learned about, you know, trauma with kids, and the one biggest factor in their resilience is having someone who believed in them. And I felt that way about my grandfather. And I wanted to be that person for the kids that I worked with. I want them to always know I believe in them. And so it's really hard when I hear people talk about kids, especially kids of color and the homes that they come from and their parents don't care about them and they're not educated, and it's like, why do you think that is? You know? And, you know, I just. I feel like I trace all of that back to him and his. Just acceptance.

22:45 Yeah. No, I mean, if we're saying on the grandfather vein, because this isn't a therapy session, I won't go into, like, my screwed up childhood, but I would say my. So my mom died when I was six, so my dad remarried, and my stepmom's dad, who was a white man from southwest Virginia, grew up during the depression, like, taught me how to hunt, fish, and all that stuff. And it's always funny because it's like, I don't know. It's weird. I feel like a southern draw is coming out of me as I talk about him. But I spent a lot of time with him during my childhood just because he was retired then. But basically, we would go out, we would go get. He had horses and chickens and stuff to take care of, and so we just spent the day doing that. Or he'd, like, go over the mountain and help his friends. Friend do some random, like, fence work. But really, what he instilled with me is, like, I think the value of, like, hard work, the value of being humble, the values of. He was only the military for three years. He was a marine during the korean war. Never deployed or anything. But I think part of my interest in being in the military is, like, always instilled for Pam. Like, I saw sort of, like, how it made him with, like, being on time to things. Of course, I was late today, so that doesn't matter. That wasn't my fault, though. But it was, you know, I think just, like, he's the one who always taught me that. And just, like, it was weird that he was the person. Not weird, but it was. The irony was great that he was the person that sort of helped me through, like, a very difficult time with my family, because you kind of find that solace, like, when you're out in the woods, like, hunting, like, it's just the two of you. And so he passed away in 2005, but, you know, you still. Still hear his voice for, like, the things that you, like, do, right? But then, like, when you're about to do something, you're like, okay, he would, like, beat my butt for that. So him. And then I think my older sister, she's three years older than I am. She just retired from the air force, and she's always, again, been this, like, I'm definitely the, like, type a outgoing, like, loud, big friend group, social person. She was always this quiet and reserved. She actually started. She what? She was supposed to leave her basic training for the air force on August 11. September 11, 2001. Oh, my gosh. And so we have an knack for these big events in our family, but, yeah, she's just always been someone that's been humble. Like, I was the one who chose, like, the college path and, like, even at Uva, like, she would. She was, like, deployed in Iraq and would, like, send money for my phone bill and stuff. So she kind of was, like, this older mom sibling to me. That's always been, like, very special. And so, yeah, I think those are the two that I would go with. And on the retrospective note, the other question that we like to ask is, growing up, you know, obviously, we bring people together to talk a bit, you know, about ideology and politics and things like that. Was there an event or a moment when you were younger or even when you were, you know, an adult that was really formative where you were like, oh, this is what's happening in the world around me? Yeah, I think for me, it would probably be the. Was it the 2000 president presidential election? I was either in, like, an 8th grade or 9th grade, but it was probably the first time, like, any other. I was. I was like, thinking about this on the way over with these questions, like, any other interaction with, like, either local politicians or even, like, you know, I grew up in the nineties during the Clinton age. And so I remember, like, you always got, like, the presidential award for physical fitness in elementary school, and it was signed by Bill Clinton. I was like, oh, that's cool that the president signed this. And, like, little did you know, it was just, like, a stamp. And same thing with, like, local politicians. Like, you know, they would come to your school, shake hands, kiss babies, that kind of stuff. But 2000, with that election, that was, like, the first time. Like, it was like, wait. Wait a minute. What happened here? Like, there's, you know, the. There's a miscount, and then we're gonna redo this. And so I think that was, like, the first time where politics, like, everyone was talking about it, like, teach. I remember teachers, like, whispering, talking about it. And so I think that was, like, the first memory as, like, a kid, like, realizing, like, how polarizing politics could be.

26:55 Yeah. So I think I can remember, and this is way before any of you having an argument with my father, who just generally did not argue with because they wanted to lower the voting age to 18, and this was during the Vietnam war, and he was completely against it, you know, that 18 year olds can't make good decisions, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I said, how can you send 18 year olds to be cannon fodder but not allow them to have a say on who's sending them? And that was when I first realized, like, wow, politics is power. You know, one way or another, it's power. And I've never missed an election, ever. Maybe a few city elections, but I just don't think the city elections make much difference. But it's, you know, I wish that people could understand what a privilege it is for us to be able to vote. And when I hear people complaining about having to stand in line, I want to say, there's no one shooting at you. You know, you not have to be afraid of repercussions because you went to vote. Like there are in other countries that we go over to try to free. And it just makes me really mad. It's like we have no idea, you know, how powerful a vote can your vote can be and what a privilege it is to have that right to vote.

28:25 Yeah, absolutely. If you have anything, I jump in if there's quiet question. Well, one thing I wanted to discuss as well is, you know, on the note of ideology, kind of. How would you describe your own belief system, whether it's just political or just kind of a lifestyle. But also on. On that note, has it always been that way, or have you had. Have you noticed, like, an evolution in.

29:03 Your own way of thinking?

29:05 And what has that trajectory looked like for you?

29:12 I think my values have always been to value people just where they are and who they are. I kind of have a little problem with the white supremacists like that. And it was interesting because I can remember that weekend of August 12, a young black man being interviewed and said, do you hate the white supremacist? And he said, no, I hate white supremacy, but I don't hate the person. And I was like, I still, to this day, would like to ask him how he does that. To me, people have value. No matter who they are, they have some value. I think it's become a more intense belief as I've gotten older that if we could just all see each other as people, not this side or that side or this color or that color religion, but if we could just all agree to disagree respectfully, we don't have to all believe the same thing, but just to see that we're just all people. And I know that's kind of naive.

30:22 Still at my late age, but I would say the. I would definitely agree with the things that shape my ideology is I definitely believe in people. I think that even people I disagree with or have values that even propagate hate for some reason. Maybe it's like the forgiveness went to enough church when I was little, three days a week, to have some forgiveness instilled in me. But I think I've gotten to the point that politics have become so polarized, I often wonder if either side is able to address the systems that are at play that allow the sort of creation of even white supremacy. I think if you go back through history, both of our main parties have intentionally propagated those for their own benefit. And so given my job, my current role, like, I mean, heck, I get asked to run for public office a lot, and I just never subscribe to it. Not because I don't believe and I think it's necessary and people do it. I just don't know if it's the best leverage point to make this change in systems that we do. I like to be more on the ground and not so much, like, debating the different things, because I've gotten to the point where I just, like, I could hit you with it. Like, not you like, but, like, general folks. Like, I could hit you with all types of data and research about different issues that are prominent at a local and national level. But people's ideologies are so ingrained. Like, they don't care. Like, they're still going to, like, just believe what they want. And so I've just gotten to the point of, like, you know, I think I always tell, like, one of the best things about me, an adult is, like, fine, we just won't interact. Like, you know, I've especially withd over, like, especially in the military. The military is a pretty conservative organization, which that's not the issue I have a problem with. But, like, the sort of idolization that has come with, like, trump and some of his. Some of the folks that are in that camp, like, I've, like, cut long friendships over it because I'm just like, we just. We can just go live our separate lives. Like, there's no point in pretending over this. And so I think I've become. I don't know if it's jaded, but it's just like, I'm not gonna waste my time trying to convince you otherwise when, like you said, it's, like, right in front of you. And you can choose to not live it or you can choose to not see it. You can go live in your very segregated community or state or county and just live your life. But I'm gonna stay here and try to, like, like, fight for this.

32:52 Yeah. It's funny because I have a nephew, my niece's brother, who was so precious to me little when his parents divorced, he called me up and said, can I just come live with you? Can I come be your boy? And it just broke my heart to say no. But he's 40 now and apparently has gotten some very bizarre ideas. It was funny because when I was talking to my niece about him, she said, you know, when I was watching the January 6 insurrection, she said, oh, God, I hope Nick's not there. And I said, do you really think he would be? She goes, he's just so far gone. And I'm like, how did that happen to him? You know? Like, he wouldn't get the vaccines. Cause he said, they're not tracking me. And I thought, you're not a stupid. You're not an uneducated person. You're not a stupid person. But what happened to you that made you change so much? I don't talk with him very often just because it hurts me to hear the way.

34:01 What.

34:01 The way he's become. And it's just, you know, I always want to know what happened to make you the way you are. What happened to you as a white supremacist to make you be so violent and angry and without knowing anybody, really, do you, have you ever sat down and talked to a person of color?

34:20 Yeah. I think it's super easy today to unplug from the reality that's in your world. And it's almost like you can find any type of group that you want online, and you can go travel to see them so easily. And I think it's really easy to, like, unplug from, like, your current reality and go to that. And if you look at how individuals become radicalized, that's. That's literally what it is. They just unplug from the reality. They find these people that just keep affirming their beliefs. And it gets to the point of what we saw on January 6, what we saw on August 12. But even just on, like, an everyday basis, like, you see, I mean, like, a lot of folks don't even realize that. Like, you know, you have people that came out of town for August 12, but there's folks who live in Charleston, the surrounding counties that subscribe to different white supremacy groups. You know, we have the three percenters. We have, I forgot. I forget their names, but, like, they're there and they're like, you know, people you go to restaurants with and they're sitting there. The thing that people don't realize, and this is, again, why I've cut off ties for people because I don't care. I'm about, like, there's conservative values and there's actually some conservative values that I subscribe to and, like, okay, I agree with that. But the idolization that we've had of, like, political figures on both sides, and it's only come become this celebrity has been so damning to being able to sit down and talk to someone like, that's your neighbor, and you, like, will subscribe to something, a talking head on a news station before you actually sit down and talk to the person next door to see how it's actually impacting them. And folks, I think, like to take things that are happening nationally and try to apply it to their context. And it doesn't all always work like that. I think the other, I think you had asked the question about political, big political moments. I mean, I. 2012, Obama's second inauguration, I had the privilege of being a part of the security team to help that go. And so I was a part of that, actually marched in the parade. And so one of the cool, there's, like, a picture that I have that is there's a thing in the military called, like, you basically salute with your eyes. You're marching and you salute. And there's, like, a picture of me looking at Michelle and Barack Obama behind this, like, glass thing. And it's like, it was super cool and inspiring for me. Fast forward to 2017. January 2017. We were running operations out of FedEx field for all the inauguration, all the security stuff. And I'll never forget standing in the FedEx field press box watching Michelle Obama and Barack Obama on a helicopter on marine one flying out and the trumps waving to him. And I remember everyone in there started cheering because they were so happy. And it made me question every single valuable belief I had. Like, almost to the point, I was like, I'm about to take this uniform off. Like, I can't serve here. But, you know, you commit to something, so you stick with it. And so it's been so fascinating to see the past four to five years, like you said, of people just becoming so obsessive and so radicalized that they lose touch with reality and humanity. And I think that's the hardest thing of, like, I don't have an answer of how to fix it besides just, you know, people just, we just pick a side of the country. And if you believe this, you move to this side. If you believe that you can move this side, everyone can build a wall there. But it's just been fascinating to see it in every facet of our society.

37:38 Well, it's been interesting to me when I see things on tv about where, like, call them reformed, but former white supremacists who have changed because they actually sat down and talked to people and admit I'd never talked to a person of color before. And when I sat and talked to them, I saw how wrong I, you know, my thoughts were. And I guess there's a huge part of me that still naively wants to believe. If we could just talk to each other about how you would go about doing that, I have no idea, but. And stop giving so much power to people who don't deserve our trust with that power that it could be really different. And I hope maybe in my lifetime things will turn that way, but it certainly doesn't feel that way at the moment.

38:38 Ben, you kind of alluded to this earlier about having some conservative values but still having a hard time kind of understanding people who are further on that side. And I'm curious for both of you, not everyone who comes into the studio that we pair together is super politically different but have approached it from you. Know, different experiences and backgrounds. Are there any issues or topics where you do find that you can understand or agree with people who typically are not folks who would align with on other issues? Like, are there other pieces of common ground that you have identified in terms of, like, an individual politician or individual like issue?

39:27 Either.

39:27 Okay. Do you have one? I kind of have one. I would say. I have spent some time at the southwest border, and the lack of. So you have one party that I feel just has a lack of humanity, but neither party is willing to have a process to have a pretty reasonable way of getting people to come into the country. And so you have just, like, draconian forces, like what the United States funds to sort of protect its other border. I'm using air quotes, and you can't see that, but it's, like, outrageous of how it's armed. But then I don't think folks on the left realize some of the dangers and issues that are coming through because they don't see it, because all they do is see the talking heads, and they make it like it's a mother and a child. A lot of cases that is, but that's not always the issue. And so I think it's like this perfect ground that both sides have these talking points that are so polarizing, and they try to make it, like, this emotional thing, and then the other side's like, oh, it's this safety thing. They're going to be in your backyard. I mean, the same thing happened with black Americans, especially black men We're just repeating it with Hispanic Americans. Right? And there's no conversation about, like, okay, let's just figure out the process. Like, there's some on the right that will be like, no, no one's coming in. And I was like, really? Like, who? Like, I know you. I know who you are employing to work your vineyards around here or to clean your houses, but you're not. You're gonna pick and choose who you want to come in. And then there's no sort of process of, like, you know, the safety piece of, you know, really just cartels and stuff like that coming in. And so I just wish that it's an issue that people just pick their side and dig in, and they're so polarizing that they will never be able to actually figure out a solution. And it's, like, wild to me how much money we just throw down the drain on either side trying to do. To try to, like, piecemeal it together as opposed to just getting a process. And again, like, the thing that. Why I always vote Democrat. Why I always lean left is because the thing I was a side in is just like, there's one side that just has a lack of humanity about it. Like, both sides, you can point fingers about who's at fault with the policy, but I'm always gonna go with the side that chooses humanity and chooses people.

41:57 Right?

41:57 So I don't know if that was a good enough answer, but I just.

42:02 I agree with you a lot that I think there's good ideas on both sides, and I tend to be more moderate. I think. I think what frustrates you most about our government is the unwillingness to negotiate anything. It's either I have to have everything I want, or nobody's getting anything. And having worked with preschoolers all my life, sometimes I want to go up there and say, let's do a little less. And on. No, it's like sharing, you know, that you don't always get everything that you want, but both. Giving a little would move us forward so much smoother and do away with a lot of the. Just like, you have to pick one side or the other. You can't be both. You can't be in the middle now. You have to be on one side or the other. And I don't think there are that many people that really are totally one side or the other. I think it's just the people that are on the middle don't always go out to vote.

43:10 Yeah. Well, one thing, just to kind of push this line a little bit more, because we've done a number of interviews where this kind of topic has come up about middle ground. And I think one issue in particular, especially in Charlottesville, that has become hard to wrap around is what with white supremacy, for example, it's. It's not a fringe issue, as we know. Right. But it's not really one where you can find a middle ground. And so I'm curious how you grapple with that in your personal life and also in the work that you do. You do. You know, if you're thinking about negotiating or finding compromise, how do you.

44:02 Yeah.

44:03 With. With white supremacy or when that's thrown in the mix, you know, how do you. Oh, yeah. There's. There's. Like I said, immigration. There's things that I could. That's a policy thing that I could work on. White supremacy. That's not something. Like I said, I don't negotiate for it. And I think one of the things I always point out, too, about August 12, is that that kind of racism is actually easier to deal with than implicit and what's being said behind closed doors and individuals in power who often espouse values that are towards social justice, but then their decision making points another way, and I think that's harder to combat, even here in Charlottesville. And so, like, there's no negotiating. It's more of, like, positioning and strategy on how to fight it and how to mitigate it.

44:58 I agree. And I think that, you know, the more covert racism that goes on, you're not even. I mean, as a white person, you're not even really aware of it all the time. And I just lost all hope when, as the investigation into August 12 went on, and I'm like, they let this happen. They really, the city council let this happen. And it's just like, how can you do that? How could you do that? How could you not listen? How could you allow this to happen? And then afterwards, after that report came out to hear them all try to, like, well, no, not really. You know, it wasn't my fault. And it's like, just at least take responsibility for what you did.

45:52 I think in that same vein, I wish people locally would get more angry and agitated at some of the things that have been historical and that happened every day. You know, we're both educators, and, you know, I always point out in the comp, there's 134 school districts in Charlottesville. The city and county schools that are local here have the biggest achievement gaps. They have the biggest opportunity gaps out of anyone in the area. And those things have been intentional, that have been voted on by school board, which is under the jurisdiction of city council and the board of supervisors on the county side. And sometimes, because that's not like a flashpoint, people ignore it and they don't realize how it is. And honestly, locally, what happens is there's so many options for private school. There's options of, you know, if you have money and you have a little navigational capital, you can move to an area that you're not gonna have to deal with. Those kids, the kids that you were talking about in your classrooms, you know, how to get specialized services for your kids when you need it, and you can pay for it, right? If you were to just walk around Charlottesville and, like, truly walk, like, you know, we have the fancy thing at dairy market now, but take a walk down 10th towards Maine and just see what that area looks like, as opposed to, you know, the student housing that we just built or Locust avenue or. It's just like, those are the things I wish people would really open their eyes about when, you know, council's voting on different things around housing, when they're voting on different things around education. Those are the things that we know are generational impacts to almost sometimes. Like, I'm always, like, going to support things that talk about August 12 and memorialize it and all the things, but I was like, I wish we would spend as much energy as we do on that, on addressing the systemic problems, because we're just propagating the same things. And if people always ask, do you think anything has changed from 2017 to 2022? No, I don't think. You cannot show one data point of anything that has changed in our town from that.

47:52 I was going to bring up. Has anything involving Charlottesville in your perspective since August 12 changed when it comes to these conversations?

48:02 Or have these covert acts of racism.

48:05 At least been brought up more, or have your interactions with people changed since this event?

48:10 Yeah, I think people talk about a lot more, but it's the. And I understand change takes a long time. I've always been an impatient person that way, but I think we need a little bit more urgency. I think we do a lot of talking. I think we do a lot of panels. I think we do a lot of, you know, consultants. Right. And it's just like, just do. And, you know, this is for, like, you know, I don't even know who listens this, but, like, I work for the University of Virginia. You know, I've worked for the school systems. But it's like, just do it. Like, we have the resources. Do it. This town is so freaking wealthy. Like, I'm always shocked at how much money is in this town. So it's not a money issue. It's like, the resources and the willingness for decision makers to give up power and realize that you giving up power to those that are disenfranchised and marginalized is not a zero sum. It's not a zero sum game. And I just wish we would do some, like, radical reform that we can control at a local level and, like, block out the noise of what happens nationally. I think politics are local. I wanted to ask because, I mean, I think I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I shouldn't interject my bias here, but I wanted to ask one. There was a point that was brought up, Sarah, I think earlier you mentioned your niece does equity work in Prince George county, and you said you wish that something like that would be in Charlottesville And I have to. I cannot not point out that. Then you work for the equity center at UVA and that's a pretty new.

49:37 Institution, and you grew up here.

49:40 And so I'm wondering, how do you, like, what were the intentions behind that, and how do you feel leading that work, having the context that you do growing up here? So there was. I think there were several questions in there. I always do that. I think the. Well, I think the word that's happening in Prince doors, the work is happening here locally, too. Like, there's Dei supervisors, a whole office of community engagement for both school districts, and it's embedding the curriculum. You know, that it's working because people are suing them for it. So that's how I know your equity work is. Is something worthwhile if you're getting sued for it. Can you repeat the last part of your question? Sorry about, like. Well, you've just, you know, from your perspective, what are the intentions behind having a dedicated group of people working on, and how does your background grow up here? Okay, so the first part about it is, like, I think inequities have been intentionally planned to. And so to erase that, you have to intentionally plan for equity. And so I think what I mean by that is, right now, there are people that have, like, former leadership roles, and they have to outsource equity. They either have to go a consultant, there's a whole separate office for it. And a lot of what I do is just advise. Right? I was like, okay, you're gonna do this. Well, let me tell you how that's gonna affect a certain group, or if we can be preventive about it, let's do this so we don't have to fix it on the back end. When people always ask me that equity center is three years old, they're like, where do you see this going? I was like, I hope it doesn't exist in 20 years, because that way we know that we have put leaders in positions that can just do it and make the decisions without having to reach out to this whole organization that is literally formed because things are so messed up. My background in Charlottesville, like, how does that play into my current role? Or I think it's just, I don't think I could do this job in another, like, college town yet. I think the value that I have is, like, the trust of the community, relationships, being able to call different formal leaders and community leaders and be able to knit them and bring them together. I think it's a unique skill set that just exists because I grew up here. Right?

52:04 Yeah, I think my niece works, actually. The diversity equity is with the schools, the french, Georgia schools. And they just started this a year ago and it was a new, new department they came up with. And she's called me a lot of times just crying because she can't believe the responses that she gets from teachers, that how racist they are and how she just is dumbfounded sometimes. But they have a really good approach there because they have a, they call them chief executives. They don't have, like superintendents, but anyway, is very invested in this. And so everything that they do as goal setting is realistic. You know, it isn't like we're not going to go back and say we're going to keep doing the things that we've been doing because that clearly hasn't worked. We're going to come up with things that do work. And it's been interesting just over the course of a year for her. I think it's been rewarding for her to see that there are people on board with it and who are willing to make the changes that need to be made. But it's, it really, really hard and really, really eye opening to see, like, why are these people teaching? If this is how they see these kids, why are they teaching? You know, it's not to give them a space in a classroom so you have a full load. It's to actually help them learn. And it's just astounding to me. It's astounding to me. I mean, I know I've always taken things with my kids that I taught a little too personally. I can remember one year this little girl I had who lived south first Street, and her mom was an addict and she had a baby brother and it was just her and the baby brother and the mom. And when I went home for Thanksgiving, I couldn't eat because I knew she wasn't going to be eating. And then I thought, you have to start putting up some boundaries. When I got back, sure enough, she had not anything to eat. The baby had fallen off the bed when her mom went out to get more crack. And it was just sad.

54:30 Yeah. I think if you, I feel like if you worked in education or healthcare, maybe law, too, you start to see all the systems that, like, you see it through the eyes of the kid, right? And even in town locally, I talk about like that, that kid, that mom is a product of the school systems. And so you have like generations that have been miseducated and sort of tracked and then they have babies and then we don't get it right with the baby, and then that baby has a baby. So we're about like three or four generations in schools integrated here locally that you have this sort of perpetual, really, poverty like that. You have folks in poverty. And I, you know, I'm a firm believer that education is an opportunity to get out of poverty. And education can be four year college. It could be a trade. It can be opportunity. But those are the things that I think we try to like as an educator, you always try to piece it together. You're like, take spending your own money to go buy family food or buy supplies. And sometimes I'm always like, I always wonder. It's like there's so many organizations we have that are supposed to do this, and then we don't connect and we don't collaborate on it, and we're always just reacting and trying to plug holes.

55:40 So I just think there's no, there's no system that anyone's come up with yet to help families get out of poverty. You know, if I can remember when, what did they call it? Work welfare to work fair or something like that.

55:56 Work to work.

55:57 Yeah.

55:57 Yeah.

55:58 And it was like, well, if they go to work, they don't have the education to do anything other than a minimum wage job, but now they have kids you have to put in daycare. How are they going to do that? Where's that money going to come from? So it's like, there's no system to help them climb out of poverty, to help them give the assistance they need to be able to have a better life.

56:26 So we are coming towards the hour mark, actually, and these things go very quickly, I feel, once you get into the swing of them. But I have a couple of questions to kind of close us out. One is just, I think, is there anything that surprised you about your partner to learn about them or that you weren't expecting from what you kind of came in reading? So we'll start with that, and then I'll close this out with the last one.

56:58 I've enjoyed the conversation immensely. It's helped me a lot. I'm still shocked you went down to the mall on August 12. I think that took a tremendous amount of courage and bravery.

57:13 I'm just hard headed.

57:14 Yeah, well, that too.

57:17 Yeah. I enjoyed it as well. I think maybe it was just, like, for the accident, I tried to, like, not. I sort of just, like, came in with, like, a blank slate. I tried not to like, you can easily go and make some snap judgments about a bio, and I actually intentionally left mine short just because I was like, I wanted to kind of be mysterious, so I didn't really have too many preconceived notions. So that means I didn't really have anything that was too surprising. I kind of went into it. I was like, I just really want to learn about someone else's experience. And then the last thing I just want to end on is, you know, we, this particular kind of series of interviews we've been doing, like you said, we don't, we hope that people will listen. We're actually working on a project with these specific conversations. But because this is archive and there is some legacy to these interviews, we hope and maybe people will listen back and say, I wonder what happened in Charlottesville 50 years ago. You're both educators, you've both worked with young people. And I think right now there's a lot of pressure on young people or to change the world. If there's some message you would share or a lesson you've learned that you think is important, if you could end by sharing that, I think that would be a great way to kind of wrap this up. A lesson around education or a lesson from this. No, just in general, like about making change or. Yeah, making the most of what you.

58:49 Have.

58:52 Since you sort of start with the education piece. Like, yeah, I mean, I believe like the kids are the future and, you know, I think, like, even I work a lot with university students, I think they're the future, but I sort of changes. Like I take like this onus and this ownership of like, yeah, that's true, but like, let's not give them a screwed up and completely broken world. Like we're the adults here. If we had like a couple hours, we could get into like student self governance at the University of Virginia. But I'm just like, let's just, like we're the adults. Like we're paid professionals, like let's, let's just fix this stuff and so that they can be kids and that they can be college students. Like we've, I feel like we've screwed things up so immensely that we've robbed kids of their childhood. We've robbed like young adults of being like a young adult being explored. Like, why are we making like 1718 year olds figure out these huge problems? Like, sure we should have their input.

59:42 But yeah, I think just, you know, helping kids learn to share their ideas, that their opinions and their ideas and their thoughts matter and can make a huge difference. To not be afraid to share what you think or what you feel, the ideas that you have because it might be your idea that's going to make the change.