Benjamin Macapugay and Kirin Macapugay

[00:05] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: My name is Ben Makapugai. I'm 55 years old. Today is May 18, 2024. We're sitting in the San Diego Public Library, downtown San Diego. I'm interviewing my wife, Corinne.

[00:19] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: I am Corinne Makapugai. I am 46 years old. Today's date is May 18, 2024. We are in the central library in downtown San Diego, and my interview partner is my husband, Benjamin Makapugai junior.

[00:39] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Well, Corinne, let's start it off. Can you tell me about where you grew up?

[00:45] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: So I was born in the Philippines in Kalinga, and brought over when I was about one and a half with my mom. So my dad joined, as you know, the United States Navy, recruited in the Philippines when there were still naval bases in the Philippines. Mom brought me over here. And the first neighborhood that we lived in is barrio Logan here in San Diego. So we lived there till about, gosh, how old was I? Maybe five, six, because I remember, or maybe even younger than that. Cause we then moved to Paradise Hills in southeast San Diego.

[01:25] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Now when did you start there?

[01:27] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Which were in paradise, in bar Logan? Gosh, no, when I was one. One or two.

[01:32] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Didn't realize you stayed there that long.

[01:34] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah, well, we lived, we first moved there, and then there was a time when we lived in Portland for a bit because dad was in the Navy member, so he got deployed. I know we lived in Portland for a little bit, but then moved back to, moved back to southeast, to San Diego. I can't remember the timeline. Gosh, it's funny, you get these memories in your head, but it's hard to place what ages they were at. But it was Barrio Logan first lived in Portland for a bit and then Paradise Hills. And my parents are still there in Paradise Hills. So when I talk about really where I grew up, I always try to claim paradise hills in southeast San Diego.

[02:14] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Memory started?

[02:15] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah, I think, well, I have some really formative memories living in biologan, like with our neighbors kids and all the other neighborhood kids. My first dog, my first birthday party, all of that was in baylogan. But my adolescent years were all in paradise hills. And a lot of that, I think, defined me. How about you? Where did you grow up, Benjamin?

[02:40] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Gosh, born in Norwich, Connecticut. Navy brat like you, right? Born in Norwich, Connecticut. My first memories, I grew up in Hawaii State. I lived there from, gosh, I think four years old till seven. Only memories I have there, sun, the color green, a lot of puffy clouds, and just running around all the time. Moved to San Diego when I was seven years old and my first impression was horrible. I remember we went from green and sunlight. We touched down in National City in the middle, I think it was in the middle of. I think winter was starting. Everything was gray, everything was paved over. There was a lot of asphalt. I wasn't used to a lot of asphalt. I'm sure Hawaii's like that now, but back in 1974, it was really rural, so. And there was always this in the background. And I realized as I got older, that's traffic.

[03:28] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Right?

[03:29] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: So that was. I was always going when I got here, what's that noise? And everybody around me is going, what are you talking about? It's traffic.

[03:36] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah. You don't hear that in Hawaii.

[03:37] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: No.

[03:38] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: And Hawaii is so lush and it's so green and. Yeah. So going from there to a place like National City where it's very urban in structure.

[03:50] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Right.

[03:50] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah. That's a big shit.

[03:51] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: And I tell you this all the time. I know, but in Hawaii, when I grew up, there weren't any Mexicans. There was a. It was primarily, you know, Hawaiian, Filipino, Japanese, even some Portuguese and some black people and some white people. So I went to Palmer way. First day in school, I tell you this all the time. A lot of mexican kids. And my first girlfriend, her name was Yvonne, we sat down in homeroom, and she looked at me and she goes, oh, I like you. You're my boyfriend. I was seven. She was seven. And I started to cry, man, I don't want a. I don't want a girlfriend. But there you go. I'm in national City now. That's my first girlfriend.

[04:30] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: That's cute. I like how she claimed you.

[04:33] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Yeah. It was a tumultuous relationship.

[04:38] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: I've lasted, like, five days. It was like, one after, dude, her.

[04:43] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Chasing me and, uh. I don't know, kids stuff.

[04:48] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: That's funny.

[04:49] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Yeah. I'm curious if you have any, um, I don't know, memories when you think back to childhood, like, anything that stands.

[04:55] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Out that you'd like to share, you know what trips me out? So when we lived in Bayou Logan, there were these neighbors of ours. I remember Esther and Kathy and my younger sister, and I played with them all the time. Like, I just remember playing with them all the time, nonstop, every day. And then we had moved, but my parents still owned that house, so we came back. Maybe I was already. I know. I was a teen. We came back and I saw Kathy and Esther, and they didn't speak English. And I was tripping out thinking, wait a minute, you don't speak English? How did we play like we played all the time. But now that I think about it, I don't remember the conversations we had. It was more just like running around, playing with their dog, just always running around outside. And so it tripped me out years later, realizing that we didn't have that verbal communication. We didn't have a shared language, but we didn't need it.

[05:54] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: You didn't tell me that.

[05:55] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah, I still trip out on that because I remember thinking, what the heck? You guys don't speak English? Because we were struggling to communicate then. But I remember as a kid, we played every day like it didn't matter. So the fact that we were able to have these relationships, like, I considered them my best friends as kids, but then realizing later that we did not speak the same language, I thought, yeah, I think that's really, really powerful. I think another thing, too. There's this picture that I really love of my first birth, my memory of my first birthday party where I had my puppy, Karina. My parents really love dogs. You know, we're native folks, right? So we really love dogs. And I had my first puppy. And in this picture, all the neighborhood kids were around, like, in the front yard, and it was such a diverse group there. I had neighbors who were black and mexican. We were actually the only filipino kids on the block. And I remember we had another neighbor that I think they were multiracial, japanese and black. And again, just looking at that picture, just that beauty and that diversity there. And I also remember when Michael Jackson's thriller came out, we had it on Betamax, and we were the only family to have Michael Jackson thriller on Betamax. And all the kids piled up in our one bedroom house and watched thriller. And that's another thing, too. Growing up, even though we didn't live in Bria Logan that long, a lot of my memories are still there because it was me, my sister, my mom, my dad, and my grandma, who we call Lola. We all lived in just a one bedroom house. And it's a trip when I think about how are we all able to fit in that house? But it didn't matter. You make do, right? But then when you come back to that property later, like, it's so small, but when you're a kid, everything seems just right.

[07:44] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: So even after. After all those years, you're a teenager. When you went back, those two girls, they said they didn't speak English. Wow.

[07:50] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: No. At least not in that. That specific conversation that we had. But, yeah, that's so true.

[07:55] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Did they recognize you?

[07:56] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah. Yeah, they recognized me. Again, we were the only filipino kids on the block. So, yeah, I know it's a trip. I think about that all the time. But that, all those memories, having all the neighborhood kids there, at least in that specific neighborhood, and then moving to Paradise Hills. It was nice because I had a neighbor just one house away, Nori, who ended up becoming my best friend when we were growing up. So just to have kids nearby, we would walk everywhere. We walked too.

[08:27] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Yeah.

[08:29] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Folks who are familiar with that area, we had a two story McDonald's. And it was such a big freaking deal that you started McDonald's, which is kind of sad. That's the only hangout place we had growing up. But I remember when that opened, it was such a big deal for the community. That was a spot like, that was a spot where all the kids hung out. Either that or parks nearby. But, yeah, I mean, I have as a kid, the memories were positive. We had. We had opportunity to play. We had a lot of places to be. It was right around adolescence, though, where things started to shift in the neighborhood because this is where I go into so much of my formative years. Anytime I get asked a question, not to jump ahead too much, but the question of why I do the work I do now, it always goes back to that time because right when I was about 13, that's in southeast San Diego in the nineties, that's when we had a rise in asian and Pacific Islander gangs.

[09:34] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Yeah, I remember, yeah.

[09:36] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: And so it's a mixed bag because I know people have negative views when we say the word gangs. But to me, those were my friends. A lot of us, our parents worked like your parents. They work two to three jobs. There's nobody around. We were latchkey kids. You know, we were all latchkey kids. I had my grandmas with me, but they couldn't really supervise or watch me. So it was easy to get caught up in hanging out with certain crowds. And I think during that time, kind of fast forward a couple of years, that big formative story when I was about, what, 1617, when I was with my friends and we were about to leave the house and a car pulled up across the street and we weren't even paying attention, you know. You know, you're a high school, you're a teenager, right? You're all about to go out. You're all. But we were already getting in our cars. There were about three carloads of us. We were all about to leave the house, but this car pulled up across the street. We didn't even pay them much attention. But this guy got out, and then I remember it felt like a movie. He had a gun in his hand, and he pointed it at us and shot at us. And you know this.

[10:55] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Did you even know the guy?

[10:56] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: No, no, we didn't know him. We didn't know him. And it was tough because I had by that point, and I know I'm jumping around a lot, but by that point, I had lost several friends to gun violence, suicide, things like that because of the neighborhood that I grew up in. And so when that happened to us and me thinking, oh, my gosh, now what's happening? Now what's happening here? I just remember. I remember that person shooting at us. I remember running. I ran behind my dad's van. Like, we all kind of split. Some of my other friends just kind of ducked.

[11:40] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: How old were you?

[11:41] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Oh, God. It was around 1994.

[11:43] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Yeah.

[11:44] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: So I had to be maybe. I don't know. It's all a blur. 1516 at the time. But no, we didn't know who it was. I mean, luckily, my one friend who did get hit by the ricocheting bullet survived. You know, we're all alive. I'm alive to tell the story today. But I remember having to call. Call my friend's mom and say, hey, so and so. So and so got shot. Auntie, I need you to come down.

[12:15] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: You didn't call 911?

[12:16] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: No, we did. We showed up anyway. They showed up anyway. So I don't even remember who called 911 because there were a good one, two, three. There may be six, seven of us outside. And, yeah, it's hard because this was so long ago, but I still. You still remember little things, right? Like, I remember my heart beat and breathing really hard behind the van. I remember seeing Greg on the ground. I remember my friend screaming and crying. And then all of a sudden, there were already. The cop cars were already there.

[12:43] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Wow.

[12:43] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: I remember seeing the sirens. I remember seeing the lights. I remember seeing the news crew. The news crew showed up so fast. And I just remember thinking, like, how are these folks already here? It was almost like. It's almost like they had tabs already on the neighborhood, right? Um, I remember having to sit on the couch, and I was holding auntie, my friend's mom and his sisters, because they're crying and we're wondering what's gonna happen. Luckily, he was fine, but, yeah, it was such a blur that night. And then. And I just remember in my head thinking, like, oh, my God, you know, now it's happening to us. Because again, like, I had friends who had. We had already lost. Um. But the next day, I remember the next day, my mom. My mom wanted to move. My mom was like, I'm tired of this shit. Like, I don't. I don't want to be afraid of my daughters getting shot at, you know, when they're just gonna go out. But my dad. You know how my dad is. My dad was like, no, this is home. This is where we're going to stay. Like, no one's gonna run us out of. Of our own community. Cause we did find out later the person supposedly who did shoot at us, they were from another community further south.

[14:00] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Oh, really?

[14:01] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah, yeah. But my dad didn't want to leave. So they're there to this day, obviously. Right. They're still based there. And that stuck with me because, you know, for a lot of people from the neighborhood, a lot of people did just leave. And that's kind of an ethos, I think, for people who grew up in certain communities is that you just want to get out. But I challenge that. And I think, well, no, what if we stay? Like, what if we stay, and what if we work towards making the community better or stronger? Like, there's still. As much as I've experienced things like that in the community, I still have so much love for it. Right?

[14:37] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: It's home.

[14:38] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: It's home. I love the streets. I love the familiarity. I love, like, even though there's. That's another thing. Even though there's five liquor stores within a three mile radius and only maybe one or two parks that you can find with really old equipment, there is still a familiarity to it, and there's still beauty, I think, in that neighborhood, too. Like, you know, we've been part of certain movements, like made in Paradise Hills, which I am the chair of, and that we founded with several other people and really trying to change the narrative of the community that we grew up in. So, yes, people got shot at, people were arrested. There was quite a bit that happened. Unfortunately, it still continues to happen. But what can we do again, to come together as different communities, different ethnicities, different races, and still try to highlight the beauty that's in that community?

[15:36] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: I'm curious, after that happened, were you one of the few families that were shot at that stayed? Did this break up a friend group, or did most people stay? I'm just gonna move back this microphone a little bit.

[15:51] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: We. Myself and my other friend. Cause it happened right between our houses. They're still there, too. So our families are still. Those two families are still there. The other families are no longer there. They did disperse. One family moved to Chula Vista, where a lot of people from southeast actually end up moving to Chula Vista. It's another community nearby, but, yeah, no, and we're all still. We don't hang out as much, of course, that just happens as you grow older. But we're still friends. We're still associated. And after that incident, oh, gosh, there's so, like, that one story. There's so many offshoot stories to that. Because, for example, when I was. I was still in school attending Morris high, and I got pulled out of class. I was pulled out of class by a plain clothed officer to question me. Because you were asking. I remember his first questions to me were, are you part of a gang? Is there something you're not telling me? I felt very not. I did not feel like I was being supported. As someone who experienced this incident, it felt more like, almost accusatory.

[17:14] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Oh, yeah.

[17:14] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: And my parents weren't even there.

[17:16] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Yeah.

[17:17] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Imagine if, like, our kids, right? Imagine if Roman was being questioned by. I would want to be there. He's a minor. I was a minor.

[17:24] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Right.

[17:24] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: And I wasn't. I wasn't even told that I can contact my parents. My parents had no idea that I was being questioned. There was no counselor. There was no other adult in the room.

[17:32] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Well, in your eyes, or you're all guilty. They're just trying to stamp out gangs.

[17:36] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah. And it was disappointing, too, because that officer was also Filipino. So I thought, you know, that's what I chose him. I thought, okay, here's an uncle. He's gonna be okay with me. But I didn't. I just didn't feel that sense of safety. And I felt like I was trying to. I was being questioned as opposed to being supported. And I bring that up because that always reminds me, too, of, you know, I ended up getting my master's in social work, and I'm getting a doctorate in social work because I always think about kids like that. Right? Okay. A group of kids shout out another group of kids in. In the perception of that tends to be, again, automatically negative, like, who are these kids? Or bad kids? Right? But even today, one of the things I always. Whenever. Whenever I tell this story, I always tell people, it could have been so easy for me. And my friends are the people that I knew to retaliate at that guy that shot at us. Right. Or the carload of other people that that guy was with, but we didn't do that. And, in fact, I always say, if I could, to this day, I would absolutely sit down with him and have a conversation of, like, why would we, as brown people, want to do this to each other?

[18:52] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Yeah, he's caught up in it.

[18:53] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: He's caught up in it.

[18:54] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: He's a victim.

[18:54] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: He is. And I always think, you know, one of the questions here is about role models, and not so much a role model, but I think one of the stories that always inspires me in this work around community building and neighborhood building, community strengthening, is the story of Tariq Camisa. And I don't know if folks are familiar, but Tariq Camisa was a college student delivering pizzas here in San Diego when he was shot at by. Oh, my gosh. I can't remember his name. I feel horrible. But he was the youngest person. He was only 14 at the time.

[19:32] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: I remember, right?

[19:33] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: I forgot his name. But he was the youngest person to be tried as an adult. And I met his grandfather. I remember the grandfather's name is Pless Felix. And he was a good friend of, actually, Tupac Shakur's mom. Cause they served in the Black Panthers together. But pless, who is the grandfather of the young man who shot Tariq Camisa, and Tariq Camisa's father, who founded the Tariq Camisa foundation, they worked together. So instead of being angry, they worked together to try to uplift neighborhoods where these situations happen. That inspires me, because me being angry, me saying, let's just leave the neighborhood, that doesn't improve it for the generations to come. So I appreciate that. Dad was like, no, this is where we are. This is where we stay. We stay rooted in that. And I always think in my teaching and in the work I do, how do you strengthen the kids then, so they don't feel like they have to hurt each other?

[20:37] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Over stupid stuff? Yeah, over stupid stuff.

[20:41] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: I mean, it was the nineties. People were struggling still, right? Socio economically. You see, to this day, San Diego is now. The us news report proclaimed San Diego the most expensive city in the country.

[20:54] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Yeah. More than New York.

[20:56] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: More than New York. More than the bay. Yeah.

[20:58] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: That's surprising.

[20:58] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: So what are we seeing now? We're seeing these great disparities, right? Like, look how much our house is worth now. It was only 350 when we bought it.

[21:06] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Like, people trying to flee from Paradise Hills in the early nineties. Now, people trying to get in, they can't. They can't afford to live there. You know, that's a great irony, right?

[21:19] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: But how do you still keep the people that have lived there for a long time? How do you keep them there. How do you make sure there's community resources? Like, I think about, you know, as a kid, you know, we had parks and we had places to play, but a lot of us couldn't afford. I could think about how much we pay for our kids. Sucker. And all those extracurriculars. Because you and I know if you want to keep the kids grounded and keep them well, that it helps to have things just outside of academia. Right. But for growing up, like, we couldn't afford that stuff. My parents couldn't afford things like that. So I always think about that, like, how do in certain communities where you have not as many resources, what could we do so that these communities can have resources? And, I mean, I don't know if one of my favorite lessons that I like to teach is about redlining. And in the community that I grew up in, in southeast, it was one of the most redlined communities in San Diego.

[22:20] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: That's how it was created.

[22:21] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Right. There are literal restrictive covenants that proclaimed the properties there could only be.

[22:28] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: I've seen them.

[22:29] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah, yeah. They've been published in the Tribune and things like that. That's why you have so many brown and black people concentrated in certain neighborhoods in San Diego. You literally can see driving up the 805, the enclaves, and San. It was by design.

[22:46] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Oh, heck yeah.

[22:47] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah.

[22:47] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Heck yeah. That's one of the weird things. But. Well, that's one of the, for me, defining things about San Diego, it's so. It's so segregated. I've. We go north on. North of the eight. Interstate eight.

[23:00] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah.

[23:00] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: And you just eavesdrop on conversations, and people talk about anything south of the eight as if it's a different country. Yeah, it's a. Blows my mind. And even within our communities. I grew up in Chula Vista, one of the communities where people from your community would flee, too. And my childhood was a. Even though maybe it was separated by maybe 3 miles. My childhood was a lot different. A lot different from yours. My childhood was running around in the canyons and playing out all day, being goofy kids, not dodging bullets.

[23:32] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah.

[23:32] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: So, yeah, separated by just a few miles.

[23:35] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Just a few miles. But it's composite. I mean, you grew up in the eighties, too, so I think the culture.

[23:40] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Well, the nineties was bad.

[23:41] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah, the nineties was different.

[23:43] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Yeah. I was already older.

[23:45] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: You were starting in college already. But you're right. Just in the neighborhood, right? That was only, what, a couple of miles? Your mom's house is just down the street from mine. But it's a whole different. Like, the 54 freeway. Like, it's almost physical. Yeah. Seeing that difference there, but still, I know it's a trip.

[24:04] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: I'm curious.

[24:06] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: When y'all's worlds collided, that's the next question.

[24:09] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: That's growing up 3 miles apart. Like, when did that happen? It's funny. We bumped into a lot of the. A lot of the same locations we happen to just be at. For example, the cafe in Benin. Yeah, we frequent a lot of places. We didn't know each other, of course, but it was where I work. Paradise Valley Hospital in National City. I was working there, and she got a job there. That's how we met.

[24:31] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: That's how we met. I had a very strict rule about dating co workers. Like, I never wanted to date coworkers because I believe in separation of church and state. I believe I like to keep my professional space separate from my personal life. But, yeah, that didn't happen at the hospital. So we were co workers. And I remember it was so funny because we worked. We even worked in the same. In the same.

[24:57] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Same office area.

[24:58] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah, the same office area. So it was nice because Ben and I, we really. We really did start off as friends. Like, I know about this guy. I know things about this guy that most wives should not know about their husbands. But it's great because it's open, right? Like, even you know my things, too. Like, you know things about me that nobody else knows, of course. And you still. And I think I. But I think that's what the best relationships are built on, right? Like a solid. A solid friendship. And it's so funny because one of the first times we went to lunch, remember when you forgot your wallet? This fool forgot his wallet. And I was like, what a cheap. What a cheap ass. But he really just does forget his wallet all the time. Like, that's just how he is. He forgets things all the time, but they so somehow always come back, right? One time he left his wallet in a shopping cart.

[25:54] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: It came back, and it came back.

[25:56] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Like some nice person found it and drove it all the way to our condo. It's a trip, but that's how we met. We were co workers first. And then. Yeah.

[26:06] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: First time I saw you, I thought you were being groomed to take my job.

[26:10] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: He was like, oh, she's gonna take my job.

[26:13] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: That was your first impression? Yeah. Who the heck is this? Why is she here? And I go, wait, she's really cute.

[26:22] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: And then I had on my screensaver, I had legolas from Lord of the Rings because I'm part of the lord of the Rings fan club, and that's how we bonded. Cause he's such a, he has his master's in literature. He's like, oh, you're a ton of.

[26:35] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: I grew up playing d and d. Okay.

[26:38] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah, I didn't go that far. I think it's just that we had a lot in common, and then it felt very natural. Yeah, it felt natural. We were both in relationships at the time too, though. But then when we came out of those relationships, we started dating, and, well, it's nice. So for me, I understand when you're with somebody, you're not just with the person. Like, you're with the entire family. You're with everything that surrounds that person. And for me, the, what I appreciated about Ben, it's not just. I mean, he's a great person too, but I really liked his parents and his siblings. We all got along.

[27:17] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Our family's got along.

[27:18] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Our family's got a. My family's wild and crazy and a lot of fun. And on our wedding night, it was great, because usually when my family clan marry people, you can tell at the wedding, like, whose side is who's. Cause our side is all raucous and.

[27:33] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Loud, and the other side's usually quiet, like, scared.

[27:38] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: They look terrifying. But at our wedding, it was matched. The energy was matched. It was a lot of fun. That was a lot of fun. I think that was.

[27:47] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: I remember your family going, oh, I like them.

[27:50] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah. And there were specific. So with the cultures that I'm from being kalinga and Buntok, there are very specific things that we do tradition wise and culture wise, and I appreciated that Ben was down to do everything, the dances or rituals, the permission, asking permission. Like, you and your parents, you want to tell the story about how you ask permission?

[28:18] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Traditionally, I went to, went to her father. I went to, you know.

[28:25] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah, yeah. But I wasn't there. So how did it go when you, you brought you your mom and dad?

[28:28] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: I sat down with your mom, and daddy said, I'd like to marry Corinne. I just want to ask your permission.

[28:35] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: What did your parents say? How are they?

[28:36] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Like, they were giddy.

[28:37] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Oh, cute.

[28:38] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Yeah, they were giddy. They were really. Wow. Okay, cool.

[28:42] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: But, yeah, I remember Kalilati, my sister. She was.

[28:46] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: I remember seeing her.

[28:47] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: She was in the hallway, like, on the phone with me. I'm like, how's it going? What's happening? She goes, yeah, they're here. They're sitting down.

[28:56] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: That he was gonna do this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[28:59] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: We planned this out. We made sure I didn't.

[29:02] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Your dad seemed very impressed.

[29:03] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Oh, he was. He was. And I think that's important, right? Because I want to make sure you know, too. Like, you're not just marrying me, you're marrying my crazy parents and all my 50, 60 plus cousins.

[29:15] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: And I remember the first time your parents sat down with my parents. I think it was at my mom's house, maybe your dad's house, but they were sitting down, talking, getting to know each other. Your dad had a drink of maybe cognac or bourbon or something in his hand, and a fly was flying around and a fly went into the drink and died. And your dad scooped it up and threw it away and he took a drink and my mom just kind of raised an eyebrow. And your mom was dying.

[29:46] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: My dad has no shame.

[29:48] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Dad didn't skip a beat. He just kept talking, like a conversation. My dad just like, yeah, okay, whatever.

[29:53] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: But that was cool. Cause they got along, right? They really. Our parents got along really well.

[29:58] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Yeah.

[29:59] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: And our moms would cackle all the time. I mean, they were a lot older than my parents, but just telling dirty jokes. I know, they're so nasty, but they both love dancing. They both got together.

[30:10] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Yeah.

[30:11] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: But I think that's, you know, that's why our relationship, I think, is why.

[30:15] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: It felt so normal.

[30:17] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah.

[30:17] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: It felt so natural.

[30:18] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah, that's important. And I always try to tell the younger cousins that, too. Is that when you're going to be with someone, you have to make sure that you actually like the people around them too, because they're going to be in your life and with you, too. I mean, I wouldn't. I remember your mom. Your mom claimed me, like off the bat. I remember we were at your mom's house and I came in and I had acne or something. Weird people. So she goes, oh, it's cause you're in love. You're in love with my son. I was like, okay. But she was right. Ten minutes already. Okay.

[30:58] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Wow. Okay.

[31:00] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah. So, you know, and I think we've been fortunate with that, though. We have a strong community around us. And I appreciate that you let me run around and do all the things that I do in my life.

[31:17] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: It's important.

[31:18] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah, yeah.

[31:18] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: I don't mind.

[31:21] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: I made you.

[31:22] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: I'm curious if there's a. If y'all got married in San Diego or if there's places in San Diego that feel really important to each of you or to your all's relationship. Like, is there special places here? It's funny because I think a commonplace is seaport village.

[31:40] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: I was just thinking that.

[31:41] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Yeah, yeah. You have a lot of childhood memories there.

[31:44] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: So Seaport Village, that it's a tourist.

[31:48] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Trap kind of spot in San Diego, kind of a resort shopping mall, but it's still pretty cool place.

[31:54] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: I love it. So growing up, my dad, our dad's our navy, but your dad was a submariner, so that's a little bit of a different experience. But even for me, I always loved being by the water. That's another thing with San Diego. Yeah, right. That's something you and I both share. We can't. We always talk about this. I can't be far from the ocean. Like when I travel for conferences, like I traveled to New Orleans, I was just in DC. And it just feels different. I feel when I'm far from the ocean, I feel it in my gut.

[32:24] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: It feels claustrophobic.

[32:25] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah, I do. I need to be by the ocean. And for me, I think it just kind of puts life in perspective. And that's what I like about seaport. It's not right by the ocean. Ocean, it's by the bay. But it's great for the kids. The kids get to run around. But I just like being able to see water because it reminds me, like, even the work, as intensive as it is, like the work that I do, teaching and being a commissioner and all that, it makes everything feel smaller because it's easy for me to get overwhelmed when I think about, oh, my gosh, how are we going to, you know, imbibe more social justice in San Diego? How are we going to make the state of California more responsive to all the diverse people who live here? Like, when I start going down these rabbit holes of these big, grandiose social justice equity things, it's nice to just pause.

[33:21] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: It just feels clean.

[33:23] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah.

[33:23] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: It feels open.

[33:24] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: It does.

[33:24] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: And the rhythm of the water, it's very soothing.

[33:27] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: And it makes me feel smaller, which I appreciate because it just checks me. It says, okay, yes, there's a lot of these issues, but it's going to take more lifetimes than mine to deal with. Right. Oh, but when I was a kid growing up, my dad liked to bring us there all the time. It's free. It was free as a place to go. You could check it out. And I love, it is touristy, but I love seeing all the different people who come through there, too.

[33:56] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Yeah, that's the fun part. Yeah. San Diego is a beautiful town.

[33:59] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: San Diego is beautiful. Every time we go there, right when we go to Coronado, you always think, oh, my gosh.

[34:03] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: I.

[34:04] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: How. How are we able to afford, number one, how can we afford living in this city? But what a privilege it is to be able to live here.

[34:10] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Yeah.

[34:10] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: So pretty. So expensive. But it's so pretty.

[34:13] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Yeah.

[34:15] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: But I don't know. For us, though, like, significant. Significant other spaces. No, I think. I think that would probably be a major one for both of us.

[34:24] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: But just living on a personal level.

[34:25] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[34:28] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: I know you talked about this a little bit, but I'm curious, you know, it seems as if you do. Obviously, you work with the community, social work. I'm curious how you feel like that experience in childhood with the shooting just really root is what your. What your work is. Is rooted in that, or, like, how does that.

[34:51] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: The catalyst.

[34:52] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Yeah. How does that resonate with you now, that whole experience?

[34:56] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: So I. Thanks for bringing me back to that, because the day after that happened, I took my best friend, and I said, let's go talk to our neighbors. Because one thing I do remember was, when it happened, I saw a couple of neighbors close their doors.

[35:16] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Oh, yeah.

[35:17] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: They closed their doors. They shut their blinds, and they just stayed inside. Nobody came outside to make sure we were okay. It was one of those things where something's coming down. Let me just not be a part of it. And you don't build community that way.

[35:33] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: That's toxic.

[35:33] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: You don't build. And. Yeah. And then you think, oh, God, you know, how can you not care about the welfare of someone who lives right next to you or right across the street from you? And we're kids, too. We were still teenagers at this time, like, as a mom. Now, I think about that. If I saw kids on the street struggling, I'm not gonna just go inside and shut my door. And maybe that's just me, but that's not how I was raised. Right. I was raised to be part of community and look out for community. And so the next day, I took Nora, and I said, let's go knock on the neighbor's doors just to introduce us.

[36:11] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: To think that way.

[36:12] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah. Yeah, I did. And I don't know now. Now, years later, I know that that means canvassing. I know that means door knocking. I've knocked on many doors after that for campaigns and other things and other advocacy, but that's the first time I knocked on doors just to talk to my neighbors, just to be like, look, we're not bad kids, just so you know. And I don't know why that. That meant a lot to me, but I wanted to clarify just who we are because, you know, you don't want.

[36:40] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: So what happened when you talked to these neighbors?

[36:42] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: They, um. It was okay. Yeah, it was okay. I mean, at least they opened the door, which I appreciate, but I just remember feeling like we can't. I remember being so disappointed that people just closed their doors and didn't check on us. And so I almost felt like I had to prove, you know, we're still worthy of concern, we're still worthy of care, and that still carries on to this day. Right. Like, how do we forge communities that don't just close the door, that don't care about other children? Like, to me, maybe because I'm a teacher, but if you're in my space, I'm going to care about you. Like, my neighbor's kids are my kids. My community's children are my children. You know, this. I have a lot of mentees and a lot of. I call them my community babies. But I just feel like we have responsibilities to each other as people. And so that incident, again, just how that all went down and just trying to connect with people. And again, like, I keep thinking, maybe one day I'll see that guy, maybe one day I'll get to meet him. But trying to have these deeper conversations of how can we make sure things like this don't happen again. Right, because they are. They're happening in. In that community still.

[37:57] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Yeah.

[37:58] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: And you would hope that we. We've come a longer way from that. But it takes work, takes a lot of work. It takes people who have to care.

[38:09] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: It takes people to not close doors.

[38:11] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. And open the door and check on each other and make sure that we're okay. So, yeah, that's still. To this day, I always think about that. I do a lot of work around economic stability, around advocacy, and just getting people to care, to care about what's happening. If not for your neighbor, then at least your own family. And sometimes it's something that's small. Like last year, we had a press conference because the mayor was finally putting money down for sidewalks, you know, over by Rio, just having sidewalks. Some communities don't even have to worry about that, but my community still had to worry about having sidewalks and places for people to walk safely so they don't get hit by cars, things like that. As simple as that. Still making sure that we ask for that and advocate and then celebrate it when we get it. And making sure people understand how important that is for certain communities. Right. Even that's the start.

[39:05] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: So I'm curious what each of y'all hope your impact and legacies are, you know, here in San Diego, but also on this earth.

[39:20] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: That's a question for you, too, Benjamin.

[39:22] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: A legacy? I really think in terms of legacy, other than raising good children.

[39:27] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah.

[39:28] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Hoping my kids, you know, contribute to making life better.

[39:34] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah.

[39:35] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: I rarely think in terms of, like, a macro. Maybe I should. I don't know. But, yeah. Just being a good person and hope that translates over to my children.

[39:45] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah.

[39:46] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Is there something in particular you really hope to transfer over to your kids? Be the people that open doors, be the people that care. That's when you see a decline in a civilization or a culture. When people don't buy into it, they don't believe in it. When you don't have that shared belief, then everything falls apart. You get things like civil war, you get things like death of communities, hatred.

[40:16] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Our older son, Roman, we were talking about the questions on the way here. One of the questions was, what are you most proud of? I'm very proud of our son's hearts. So Roman, when he was a kid, remember, he cried. He cried when he found out that dodo birds were extinct. Cause he's like, oh, he was asking.

[40:34] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: About the dota birds.

[40:35] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: The dota birds are extinct. I'm so sad. But I appreciate him because. And I took him. I've taken him with me when I've canvassed for certain people who were running for office or even just when we were doing get out the vote campaigns. Like, having him walk with me, having him enjoy knocking on doors with me, too. Like, having him understand that this is what you do. You go meet people. You don't be afraid to talk to people. Even though he's a teenager and he's really kind of introverted and shy now, he still talks about social issues. And I'm so proud of that because I wasn't doing that when I was his age. I was still running around. But I am proud of that. I'm proud that both of our kids, the younger one's crazy. He's a crazy one, but they're good kids.

[41:24] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: They both have good hearts.

[41:25] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: They both have good hearts. They're good older cousins. And I'm proud of that. I think going to your question of legacy, that's funny, because at the college I teach at San Diego City College, my president was asking us that, too. What's the legacy you leave? And that's a hard question, because we don't think about that ourselves.

[41:45] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: And for me, day to day, just surviving day to day.

[41:47] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah. You do.

[41:48] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Yes.

[41:48] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: I do.

[41:49] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Yeah.

[41:50] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: I think for me, as an educator now, having done the work I've done, what I love is seeing my students. I'm getting tired, you know, I love seeing my students come in and teaching them the tools that they need so that they can make this impact. I mean, we have students that live in their cars. We have students that were. Like I told you about Anthony. He was 21 years in prison, right? And now he's getting his master's in counseling. Like, I love stories like that. I love that. That, to me, that's the legacy. It's not even about me. It's about empowering other people to do what they want to do. That's such a beautiful thing that I get to witness. So all these students, all these just, you know, neighbors, community members who have also gone through really tough things, seeing them feel like they can make an impact. Like, if we can all do that, then we're good.

[42:45] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Yeah.

[42:46] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Right? And they're the ones who give me hope. As expensive as San Diego is, as politically and socially divided as it may feel like, sometimes I get to see these really incredible people come into my classrooms and leave.

[43:02] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: It's really inspiring.

[43:03] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: I know. I know. I'm so lucky I get to teach there. They're great.

[43:08] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: That's a great thing.

[43:08] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah. And we connect well because of what I've grown up with. So a lot of what I just shared.

[43:15] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Right.

[43:16] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: When I shared that, in my classrooms, they're like, okay, she gets it. And I think that means something to have somebody who. It's not necessary as a teacher, but I think to have someone who's grown up with certain experiences and lived in the same community, to have that reflected back at you, it means more than I thought it would.

[43:38] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Is there anything else that.

[43:44] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: You supporting me in all my crazy things that I do.

[43:48] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: It's not crazy. It's God's work.

[43:50] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah.

[43:50] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: You're doing good.

[43:51] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: If I couldn't do it without your support. People always ask me, Corinne, how do you do all this work? Because Ben lets me. Not that you let me, but he supports it. The boys support it. They see it. My family is really supportive of it. And I have. I have. I think we're both of you. Both of us, like, we're really lucky that we have this strong community that has our back.

[44:14] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: I agree.

[44:14] CORINNE MACAPUGAY: Yeah. We're fortunate that way. Yeah.

[44:21] BENJAMIN MACAPUGAY: Okay, great.