Carin Mayo and Tosca Hieftje

[00:08] KAREN MAYO: My name is Karen Mayo. I am 52. It is April 24, 2021. I am in Birmingham, Alabama. I am speaking with Tosca. I happy to. Tosca is a 65 year old woman. She has in her family five grown children, four grandchildren, seven dogs and two turtles. She's married to a disabled veteran who was blinded in the Vietnam War. She is very interested in having conversations with people who have different viewpoints than she does. As it expands her understanding, Tosca feels passionate about issues that concern women. Sure.

[01:21] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Tosca And I'm 65 years old and I live in Birmingham, Alabama and I'm speaking with Karen Mayo, my new friend. Oh yeah. April 24, 2021. Okay. I hope I do as good as a job as she did. Karen lives in Birmingham, Alabama and is originally from Chicago, Illinois. She works in higher education and supports community organizations as a volunteer. She has a family that she loves very much, including three wonderful pets. The biggest moments in her life are centered around her child, who is a teenager now and whose birth brought so much joy, balance and purpose to her life. She enjoys nature, gardening, music, yoga, traveling, and the issues that are important to her are social justice and human rights. Great job. I wasn't sure I could change over the, you know, verbiage. Sure.

[03:07] KAREN MAYO: All right. I was born in Hammond, Indiana, which is right outside of Chicago. When I was 3, we moved to Chicago. When I was 7, my father died and I was raised by a single mother. I'm one of three children and I have six half siblings that are older than I am. They were my father's from his first marriage. I don't have a really good relationship with them, but it's mainly on their part. It's not for my lack of trying. Had somewhat traumatic childhood, suffered some physical and emotional abuse. I went to college at 17 years old, got through it in two and a half years with my bachelor's degree, went to law school, went through law school, started working in law, and I guess in my late 30s, early 40s, I decided it was time for a career change. After working in law for 22 years, I went back to school, got a master's degree, public administration, and didn't know what I was going to do with it. And at just the month I graduated from the master's program, the institution I went to offered me a position in the department I was getting my degree from. So. And I've been there ever since. So I love higher education. I love working in higher education. I got married in my late 30s. My son was born exactly nine months to the day I got married. He was a little honeymoon gift. My child is on the autism spectrum and he is very adhd, which makes an old parent really tired sometimes. And he's in high school now. He's a super kid. Just. I love him so much. My husband works at the VA and the operating room and only works about a block and a half from me, so I get to spend a lot of time with my family, especially during the pandemic. I have two rescue cats and a rescue puppy dog and several feral creatures that, because I'm out in North Shelby County, Hoover, we are surrounded by wood. So I have several little feral animals and birds that I take care of as well. And that's me in a tiny nutshell.

[06:22] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Well, actually, this is kind of amazing, but I don't really need to. She just told my life story.

[06:31] KAREN MAYO: Oh, wow.

[06:33] TOSCA HIEFTJE: It's kind of amazing. I'm shocked. You're going to be shocked at the similarities. I also went to law school. I kind of. Okay, I'll just start out my. I had a mean mother. I had a meaner husband. I had a bunch of kids. I have a bunch of dogs. I went to law school and practiced law and justice. I can't do cartwheels anymore. And that's pretty much my life story. I married. I love the opera task I have. I just. I'm amazed at how I had a baby my second year in law school. I raised my children, my five children by myself virtually. I was married, but he was living in Puerto Rico and we got married. We were married for 27 years, and then we divorced for 12 years, and then we remarried eight years ago and we don't live together. And I did a lot of divorces and criminal. I did defense, criminal and family court and stuff like that. And I went back to law school when I was 38. So I was usually the oldest person.

[08:10] KAREN MAYO: Yeah. And I can feel that.

[08:13] TOSCA HIEFTJE: I also went back to school a few years ago to the University of South Alabama, and I took two semesters full time and decided, oh, my God, I can't keep up with this. I. And that's pretty much the highlight.

[08:39] KAREN MAYO: Wow.

[08:49] TOSCA HIEFTJE: I know. I was trying to figure out the differences between us.

[08:54] KAREN MAYO: I know. I'm sitting here going, I think we're. We're very similar.

[09:00] TOSCA HIEFTJE: I think we are. So I guess we're just going to have to talk about the similarities.

[09:35] KAREN MAYO: Oh, the Vietnam War. I remember the images of the Vietnam War. I had two half brothers that were in the Vietnam War. And I know how much we worried about them. And I remember seeing the President on TV talking about it and.

[10:00] TOSCA HIEFTJE: I would.

[10:01] KAREN MAYO: Just get so angry because I didn't understand everything. And we. But yet we were seeing these images on TV from the war and I guess. And then Watergate, which just really put a stain on the presidency for me, even as a little kid and just made me think, wow, this is. I can't believe that people, that adults would do things like this, that have this kind of power. And then my grandfather, who was from Italy was a Democrat and he had me knocking doors on the Mondale Ferraro campaign. So. And I wish I still had my T shirt.

[10:52] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Can you believe you still have to keep doing these things?

[10:58] KAREN MAYO: I know, right? Exactly. So, I mean, that's. My earliest. Politics have affected me from a very young age. And it started with the Vietnam War and me not understanding. And I thought it was because I was a kid, but I think that there are a lot of adults and a lot of us that live through it, that still don't understand, you know, why, except for political reasons. Huh.

[11:33] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Ditto. My first memories of politics were the Vietnam War. And I was 16 years old and I had just met Mark, who was blinded in Vietnam and he was six years older than I was. And when I first met him, I thought he was drunk, but turned out he was blind. And I sold POW bracelets and I was appalled at the war. And I. It has been part of my life, throughout my life. And I. When Mark went to war, his friend Keith also went to war. They signed up on the Buddy program. And then Keith came back and married my best friend from Saugatuck. So the four of us have gone through life together. And recently Keith just died and of leukemia related to Agent Orange. And he always wanted to write a book about small town boys going off to war. And he got sick before he could really do that. And I kind of told him I would try to relate that story. And so I always, from that point have been very political. I have no family. My family isn't particularly political, but my biological father was kind of political and I sort of picked that up from him as well. And I am very political.

[13:39] KAREN MAYO: I am too.

[13:42] TOSCA HIEFTJE: I know what's going on.

[13:46] KAREN MAYO: I work in political science and public administration. That's what I teach. Yeah, I was introduced to it early and it just stuck with me.

[14:01] TOSCA HIEFTJE: And I think that we do need an educated population to continue this great American experiment.

[14:13] KAREN MAYO: Yeah. It's interesting that you had a friend that passed from leukemia related to Agent Orange. My father in law who is this? The most wonderful man I've ever known. Besides the son. My husband. He passed away 12 years ago this month from leukemia due to exposure in Agent Orange when he was in Vietnam.

[14:41] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Oh, my God.

[14:44] KAREN MAYO: Yeah, it's a thing. It's a thing. I worked for a law firm, a plaintiff litigation firm that handled lawsuits for Vietnam vets who had been exposed to Agent Warren because of all the health issues that came down from that. But my father in law and my mother in law were not interested in being a part of that.

[15:10] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Yeah, you know that I also had this experience that, you know, when all that afghan stuff and 911 happened. And my children, as they turned 19, I have four boys and one girl. And when the boys all turned 19, I looked at them and I thought, how could they possibly be ready for war? I mean, no, they just didn't even seem like they could have been in that. I was kind of under the impression that, you know, like their father was far more prepared for it. But then as I've been kind of in getting involved in writing this story, I've been reading their letters that they wrote back home, and I can see that they weren't any more prepared than my children were. These were just high school kids that they were picking up and putting over there. And I come to the conclusion that they all did know that they weren't fighting for anything, but that they fought for each other. And, you know, the passing of, of Keith has really. I mean, he lived with Vietnam in his head all these years. Now, Mark, my husband, didn't live the Vietnam experience as much as he lived the blindness because he had to learn, like, everything. And the other day I was talking to a loan officer and he was thanking me for Mark's service. And I said, and you know, you need to thank the family too, because we're the ones that do it. We're the ones that take care of this. I mean, you know, like, I don't, I don't know.

[17:08] KAREN MAYO: Yeah, I know. I gotcha.

[17:12] TOSCA HIEFTJE: We just, you know, they sort of, just kind of. I don't know how else to say this, but they just sort of, here you go. Here's somebody disabled and pretty screwed up from the war. Deal with it.

[17:31] KAREN MAYO: I know. And back then, as they were coming home from Vietnam, we didn't have all of the services that we do today for them. We didn't even have that at the beginning of the Gulf War. And there are just so many people that need help and that still need help. I don't know. My father in law never talked about Vietnam ever, ever. And we did not ask questions. My stepdad will tell us some stories. He was in the Air Force in Vietnam. He will tell us some stories, but I don't think that he was in any kind of combat. It sounds like he was just always on bases making sure that the jets were maintained and that they were always ready to go.

[18:27] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Yeah, it's, you know, our generation of these Vietnam veterans. And, you know, I run into a lot of Iraq veterans and, you know, if you remember, they said, oh, well, this isn't going to be like Vietnam. I think it's like Vietnam. Plus, you know, nobody knows what we're fighting for. Nobody can. My son, when he was in high school, one of them, he had to do a debate on the Iraq war. Well, all the reasons not to go, I could, you know, help him with. But when it came time to, you know, and they changed sides on him, they made him support that. And I go, I'm out of ideas. I have nothing. I don't know why we're there.

[19:25] KAREN MAYO: Yeah, I mean, they. If we had been harder on the Taliban and eradicating the Taliban, that could have been a positive out of it. But as it stands, all they did was just kind of beat them back, but they are still there. I have friends that live in Afghanistan that are from Afghanistan. I also have friends that are Afghanis who during the. During the heat of the Iraq wars, they had to go into Iran and live in refugee camps. And I've had students from Afghan who grew up in refugee camps and went to school sitting in mud, learning on chalkboard, handheld chalkboards. So, yeah, other than helping those people get out from under the strain of the Taliban, I don't know. And we honestly did not do enough to eradicate them in their control. And when you talk about women's issues, because I know it's something you said you were passionate about. The women's issues over there are. And especially under Taliban are just horrendous.

[20:56] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Oh, I think. Well, that's how I became really passionate. I think you gotta kind of go with a passion, you know, dogs, women there. I'm writing a book right now also on the spirituality of women. And I'd like to see a world with more stories about women and what we really do contribute to society. And I think that would be an important step towards. Because I just. I don't even like the rights in this country for women.

[21:41] KAREN MAYO: I could talk for hours about that. I don't even. I don't like being called a Woman. I don't like having to check boxes for gender or race or ethnicity or any of that, because it. It dilutes our experiences as individuals, and it dilutes our cultures and our history. And checking that gender box places societal strains on us, Societal definitions, labels and strains on us that wouldn't be there if we were all just human beings, if that makes sense. So if you call me a woman, that. That makes most people already think that I am weaker than men, and I am not. I've been through things that would probably have broken grown men, but, you know, so I just. I don't like the societal constraints. And that's exactly what I think gender is, is a societal constraint. It's just a label, and it comes with a lot of baggage.

[23:06] TOSCA HIEFTJE: I take a little bit of a different approach on that. I'm very proud to be a woman, and I'm not, you know, I mean, I want to be known as a woman, and I think that I approach my womanness through the eyes of a mother. I think mothers and the nurturing and the feeding and the things like that are just, you know, worthy of recognition. I mean, you know, Mao Zedong said that women hold up half the sky. I don't know how he meant it, but how I take it means that our contributions are minimized, and I object to that. I. I was taking a cle in diversity, and it was narrated by a black man, and he was saying kind of what you're saying, that, you know, when you label, like, attorneys, a woman attorney, a black attorney, and he said we should just say attorney. And I was thinking about that quite a bit. I didn't say anything at the conversation, but I thought about it a lot since. And I kind of want to address it with him because I actually want to be known as a woman attorney. And no, I don't do things that men do. And sometimes when I'm seeking legal help, I want to know, like, you know, the gender. I. For some reason, it makes a difference to me because it implies different things. What I want to see is people not to talk about women attorneys or women in general, as though we are all monolithic and that, you know, sometimes we can't do things that men claim that they can, but they can't do what we can do. And I want to be more of a partnership rather than I want to vote for the first Lady. I think that would kind of balance out America a little better. You know, we have. Even if a woman gets to be the president and she does male things that still doesn't address women's issues. You know, if you have two blacks, two women, two whites, two everything, you. If you don't have diversity of thought, you don't have diversity. So I approach it just a little, a little different. And I can't, I guess in my head I can't not look at people and notice their differences and respect them, you know. And I often refer to my sons. You know, I'm like, I'm not a guy. No, I'm not carrying out 100 boxes. You do. And you know, I want, I had to be kind of a mother and father to my children. And I did think that male things to teach them because they are males and they had to navigate, you know, in this world. So I taught them how to shake hands and things like that, you know, and I don't think they got a lot of a particularly good role model from their father, but we made it work. And I just, you know, I, I find that some of the problem in this society is that we ascribe to the Old Testament, which is not kind to women at all. And yeah, I don't really buy into that. I really don't understand how the Old Testament becomes part of Christianity. It seems like a real bad tale of men and our source of knowledge is all male from that.

[27:37] KAREN MAYO: Exactly. It's the Bible is, and this is, this is just my opinion. The Bible is a collection of stories told by men to control the masses and keep them, you know, keep, keep in power. And there was no writing system at the time. These stories had been handed down by mouth for hundreds of years before they were ever recorded. Now I know that you've probably done the, the little rumor scenario where you have a line of people and the first person whispers something to the next person. Person and then the next person whispers what they heard to the next person. And by the time you get to the end of the line, it's not even close to the same thing the first person said. That's my approach to the Bible. I, I'm sorry, I don't believe it was written by or that it was the word of some divine person. And I, it's just too, I don't think that there is this creator that would have created man and woman in all colors, shapes, sizes and forms and then discriminated against all of them but the white, the white men with money. So I'm a humanist. I, I have stepped away from religion. I'm a humanist and I don't believe that we need religion to be a good person. And I'm raising my son that way. I'm not raising him in the church because of some things. He did go to Catholic school early on and we took him out and there was just a lot of problems. But I'm raising him to be a good person and I'm seeing him be a better person than some of the kids in my neighborhood that go to church all the time and go to a religious school down the road. So.

[30:04] TOSCA HIEFTJE: And that I feel that the churches have really, you know, from what I can. And I'm Episcopalian by, I mean I grew up Episcopalian. And I, I just think that like all religions that, you know, the major religions, they just. There's nothing about women like the Buddhas do they even have women. And all these stories that women have are just ignored. Like there's a book written by. And I wish I could remember her name right off the bat, but she wrote a book, she's from Birmingham, she was a firm, a former cop. And she wrote a book called Noah's Wife. And that changed my life.

[31:03] KAREN MAYO: Wow.

[31:03] TOSCA HIEFTJE: It was well written. And so, I mean it, it gave me the opportunity to explore, you know, just exactly that source of knowledge. And you know, from her, it told the wife's story. She was a 14 year old girl that lived in town and her family had been killed by the flood because they all lived along the river. You know, it was. Flooding was often happening. She was just terrified. And so Noah, this is her story. Noah married her and told her that in order to keep her, you know, feeling safe, he would build a house that could float and they had a lot of animals and everything. And the whole story just made sense to me. You know, like that probably did happen a lot like that. And when you were talking about how stories were told, that seemed very, you know, it was such an oddity. And people would go by and see the animals and I can see how it turned into the ar.

[32:21] KAREN MAYO: Yeah, exactly.

[32:23] TOSCA HIEFTJE: You know, it was a very human story. And I started reading biographies of the women that were with famous men and their story is a lot more interesting. And my story that I write is what I'm attempting to do to show the woman's source of knowledge. You know, we kind of do this through food and you know, food defines the culture and you know, all of this thing. So I have a son that lives in Tampa and he works at a five star fancy restaurant and he's worked at the Hot and Hot and you know, been involved in this for a long time. And when he left home he couldn't even cook a hot dog in a microwave. And now he's plating food and, you know, I'm like, who is it? But I helped him, like, take these tests that they have to have. And I started learning about food. And I be. I mean, I was eating out of vending machines, you know, and like, takeout was my life. I had, you know, charge accounts at every pizza place in town. And then when he started going through this and taking these tests, I got so interested in food and have been involved in it. I'm a total foodie. So the basis of my book is that, you know, I kind of have an unusual background and I have some connection to Lebanon. And so what I want to do is connect the ancient history of women through food and have like the biblical ingredients, but use them in modern day recipes. And I know all these chefs and these. I'm a cook, but I, you know, I'm pretty good cook, but I am no chef but to create like different recipes. And then at the end of the book, I'm gonna put signature lines and you're supposed to sign it and send a recipe to a woman you love. And then it. When it gets to be like a hundred, then you have to send it back to the original woman that signed it. And the book is about, you know, finding these ancient roots and how food has created our culture and that we could probably heal the world a lot more through food than war.

[35:16] KAREN MAYO: Wow, that's fascinating. I love that idea.

[35:22] TOSCA HIEFTJE: I've been doing this in my head when I used to sit in court. I used to just. I have all the food, all the history, I have all the research, I have the story, I have everything. And I don't write it, but it is my mission. That's what I'm going to do. I quit practicing law about five years ago and redesigned my life so I could do this and still thinking about it. And I'm collecting stories from women, you know, to turn them into characters in the book. So that's my whole thing.

[36:07] KAREN MAYO: Yeah, that's. That sounds so. Oh, I'm so sorry.

[36:17] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Not all about that. Okay.

[36:38] KAREN MAYO: Who has been the kindest to me in my life? My husband. And it's really odd because he frustrates the devil out of me sometimes, but he was the first person who fully supported anything I want to do. I am completing a doctoral degree now at my age, decided to go back yet again. After three master's degrees, doctoral studies in political science, I decided to go back again. A doctorate in higher education, administration and leadership. But he has always been so supportive, so generous and, and kind. So it makes me feel bad for even being.

[37:59] TOSCA HIEFTJE: All right, Everybody. So.

[38:08] KAREN MAYO: For seven dogs. Wow. They are.

[38:16] TOSCA HIEFTJE: I've got four that are 13 and then I have. And I have a variety of them. I mean they're pit bulls to papillons and my vets have that. They are the best group of dogs that he has ever seen. I mean they've been, they've all come from abused situations and everything. And when I got them I told them they would never know another bad day. And not supposed to have seven dogs and homewood. But I'm trying to teach them. We used to live out in the country and they have, they. We lived on a dead end road and they were in paradise. And then I moved back to Birmingham like a year and a half ago and we live in the city so they have to have their city manners. Not that easy. The olds as I call them, you know, they're like pretty much just let me do what I want to do. But yeah, I don't.

[39:36] KAREN MAYO: Who's been the kindest to you in, in your life?

[39:39] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Okay. Well, my grandmother was. Definitely played that role and I would have to say my dogs in various. I have, I have depended upon the kindness of strangers my whole life and that's who I think is my grandmother.

[40:06] KAREN MAYO: The same, the same here as my husband and my pet. I have an 18 year old cat and a 17 year old cat and my dog is eight. They're all rescues, I guess we are all rescues and we all just take care of each other and they are wonderful and they've been wonderful to me. Especially my 18 year old cat. She is my greatest source of comfort.

[40:36] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Oh, I know. She's my little shadow every time somebody comes into the house. Of course it's pretty daunting. I don't know what. The other day, my son, my 40 year old son and my 38 year old daughter live in the house with me and my son told his friend to just walk in the door at 1:00 in the morning a couple days ago. And so he, you know, he didn't knock or anything, he just opened the door and of course all seven dogs were like, what? And my daughter went down and she told him, she goes, you have the wrong house. And he's like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. But then, you know, we got him in and the dogs all got to meet him and everything and he was just, he was just so happy. He goes like, this is so Cool. You know, like all the dogs. And he felt like he met a new family.

[41:50] KAREN MAYO: Well, I'm kind of like Snow White. I walk into a room full of animals and they're all coming up to me and smelling and wanting petted and just. I don't know, I've always had just this weird thing with animals. They're drawn to me. And I'm drawn to them too. I love them all. We don't kill anything around here, even mice. We get a lot of mice from the woods out in our garage. And I live, trap them and I take them out to Oak Mountain and let them go.

[42:28] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Oh, my God. I swear, you and me, I don't know, I. When I lived. I lived down in Daphne and I got this, you know, I started getting a mice problem in the house with all the dogs. I couldn't believe it, but I was catching them on those sticky things and then taking Q tips and Vaseline and taking them out in the woods and letting them go. And I swear they were running back into the house before I could even get back. And I just got like overrun with mice. And I hate to. I mean, I had to do something, you know, I mean, this had to. They were eating the bird food and eating it. I mean, they were taken over and I didn't want to do it, but I had to get them out of the house. And I gave them a chance to leave on their own and get out. But anyone that came in after that, I have to stop it. But I don't kill anything either, kill spiders.

[43:38] KAREN MAYO: You have to take them way far away. And I'm just down the road from Oak Mountain, so I just take them there. I take snakes there. I'm the neighborhood snake wrangler. I catch snakes except for water moccasins and copperheads and the wood rattlers, I don't fool with those. But just the minor venomous snakes and non venomous snakes. I will come and remove them and take them out to the mountains so they can be free and stay out of the neighborhood and people's garages. I guess my cats keep the mice from coming in the house. You know, the mice can smell cats and they don't seem to be bothered by dogs, but they smell cats and they, they won't come where the cats are.

[44:38] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Well, I try to make a deal with nature, you know, as long as you don't eat my cords, my electric cords and, you know, do things. We've had a couple of bats in the house. That's been a little unusual. I see My big grown sons turn into like, oh, my God, Mom. No, I think more of the. What happened to one of them is he got up in the night and the bat was hanging right in the bathroom door frame. And so when he grabbed, like, the handle, there was the bat right there, you know, and a little kid freaking out a little bit. And the only reason why.

[45:37] KAREN MAYO: Best prank ever.

[45:43] TOSCA HIEFTJE: We are the ones that brought the bat here to begin with because we found a bat downtown hanging on the VA building. Because my husband used to work at the VA too. So he was just hanging there in the daytime, and we rescued him and brought him home. And ever since then, we've had quite a bat population. And we have a swimming pool. So they dive the swimming pool. And the kids would be swimming out there, and they would just dive it. And.

[46:16] KAREN MAYO: Yeah, they love. They love water. They associate it with, you know, a lot of bugs collect around water, like on lakes and ponds and things, and so they can sense the water and they like it. So, I mean, I build bat houses to have behind my house. Bat houses and houses of certain types of birds.

[46:40] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Oh, my God. That's. I have always wanted, especially, like at my little house down in Daphne, is. I've always. I called all the exterminators and everything, and I said, you know, if you ever need to place a bat colony, you can use my house, because I am right by the river. I've got fruit trees all around me, and they are more than welcome at my house. But so far I haven't gotten any, and I don't have a bat house. But that's been one of my. I love the bats.

[47:20] KAREN MAYO: Well, and they are bats. And Homewood, they've been there for a long time because my nieces and nephew played lacrosse for Oak Mountain. And we would go out to Patriot park in West Homewood and at dusk for their lacrosse games. And at dusk, those bats would just come out of nowhere. And it was funny to watch the kids out there playing and dodging bats at the same time.

[47:50] TOSCA HIEFTJE: That's. Well, we have. In my. I live on. I don't know if you know this. I live by Brookwood Hospital on Salter Road. And we. We have foxes. I don't know about any more, but my kids. Okay. I moved away when we got the first divorce. I moved down to Daphne, and I stayed down there for 20 years and then moved back to Birmingham, like I said, a year and a half ago. But I haven't seen any foxes since I've been here. But we used to have foxes and we have an honest to God owl that. I mean, at night if you're sitting out and I'm a real nighttime person, you know, and you can hear this owl. And he has been there since we have. I mean, I don't know if there's a couple of them or whatever, but there is a huge owl out here. And it says we haven't. We have an acre of land here. And we have always kept our yard as natural as possible. And we have all kinds of things out here. It's like living in the country, in the city.

[49:14] KAREN MAYO: We have a lot of them out here. I mean, I'm at Valleydale and Caldwell Mill right behind. Yeah, right behind Spain Park High School. So there's lakes in the neighborhood and it's surrounded by woods and all of that. The other night I was awakened by coyotes outside the window. I see foxes pretty regularly in the neighborhood. Hawk, eagle. Earlier today I sat out in the backyard and just watched. Listen to and watch birds for a little while just to relax because nobody's at home and I love doing that. But yeah, all kinds of creatures. And the deer, I mean, I can't. I can't keep nice flowers in the front of my house where there is no fence because the deer come and eat them and I'm afraid to feed the deer because I don't want people shooting them.

[50:15] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Oh, yeah, I'm.

[50:17] KAREN MAYO: It's been an issue.

[50:19] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Yeah.

[50:20] KAREN MAYO: This is a neighborhood. I mean. Oh, no, that's.

[50:53] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Well, I have one question for you, Karen. When are we going to get together?

[51:02] KAREN MAYO: I know I didn't catch your last name when you said it, but I've been sitting here going, I'm gonna have to find her. And I just. I don't think we have any differences even on the. Our opinions on gender and the box checking stuff. I agree with you completely that, you know, we need to celebrate our role. But you know, on the other side of that, I don't like the societal strain or constraints either, so. But yeah, I mean, we just have so much in common. And of course, if you're a little blue dot, we all have to stick together because, you know, we're. We're not even in purple state.

[51:58] TOSCA HIEFTJE: No, we are not. And I. Oh, I know we are going to have lots of conversations and they're all going to be like, very good and enlightening and I am so glad that we have got. I thought it was a little strange when I read your bio. I was like, you know, I think we're going to be a lot Alike. I just didn't realize how much alike. And I think it's. I think this is entirely cool. I'm just so glad. I'm so happy. And the opera thing, you know, first of all, I love music and I love listening to it, and I do the best I can at singing, but I'm really tone deaf. And I've had that opera sang to me at my kitchen table. And I just. I always picture in my head it was such a scene. I had little babies and little kids and animals running around in this amateur opera. Singer just broke into song at the dinner table, you know, and singing it, and I'm like, you know, the kids are all like, what's going? And I just. I thought, wow, how many people say that? They. And last year, for my birthday, my son gave me two opera bracelets. And they are so cool. They. You know, they have, like, little charms on them come out. They have a teardrop and knife and everything from all the opera, and I wear them all the time. And I would love to show them to you. You could appreciate.

[53:55] KAREN MAYO: Well, yeah, we definitely have to connect. Yeah. I have a necklace that I bought at the Metropolitan Opera in New York that is a replica of their. Of the chandeliers at the Metropolitan Opera House. And, yeah, I'm just. I'm a big opera nerd. So I. I love it. I grew up listening to opera. My father would not let us listen to modern music. He thought the Beatles were the devil. So I grew up listening to Caruso and. And then Mario Lonzo. So, yeah, I was definitely the nerd in school and listen to them all the time and let my kids listen to them.

[54:49] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Well, I. I can only say that, really, my total involvement has been, you know, just with that particular opera, because nobody I know or hang out with is very into opera. And so I'm very anxious to explore that because I. I know a lot about my own opera, but not much about any of the others, and only because I'm not. I used to be a big Facebook person. And, I mean, I was on Facebook. I lived alone, you know, and I was constantly Facebooking. And then one day I thought, oh, my God, I am not. I just got off of it and have been off of it for about five years.

[55:47] KAREN MAYO: I don't get on much because I think that it can be really toxic, and I definitely do not share my opinions or views on there, but it's how I find out about a lot of events. It's the main way that people communicate events now is through social media. And Opera Birmingham does something called Opera Shots where they do little mini pop up concerts. And it's not always opera music. Sometimes it's classic standards or, you know, they may have a rock event or a sing whatever you want event or, you know, pay to hear whatever you want event. So. But you usually only hear about them through social media. But you can go to Upper Birmingham's website and sign up for their newsletter and they will send you email and you'll get the emails about Opera Shots. Now I'm not singing with them anymore because I'm way too busy. But my husband does occasionally and he sings. He was. He's a cradle Episcopalian and I converted to Episcopalian the month before we got married. Pope John Paul died that weekend. And then the priest that was performing my ceremony passed out and had to be taken to the hospital. So I was like, okay, somebody's mad at me for converting from Catholicism to Episcopalian. Wow. It was that Catholic guilt. So, I mean, we are Episcopalian. My husband sings at the Advent downtown still, and he sings with a small group that's a spin off from the singers at the Advent. But yeah, we don't get to do a lot. And I miss doing live theater too. We did a lot of theater as well. But there's just so many great events out there and so many things to do.

[57:57] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Oh, I know. And I, you know, I kind of was all gung ho when I got up here. And then Covid happened and I stayed at home. I mean, just because of my lifestyle, I was very able to do it. I mean, it wasn't a big change for me. But I just got my second vaccination last. Well, this last Tuesday. And I was a little surprised because I got a reaction from it. The second dose, the first dose I didn't. And I was pretty sick this week. And I knew it was a mild reaction, but it's all I want. I couldn't. Every time I stood up, I just felt like going right back. And I kind of had a fever and a headache. And my son, my oldest son had Covid and he told me, he said, you get the vaccine, mom, because you would not survive this.

[58:59] KAREN MAYO: No, it's awful. I had it twice. I got it before it broke out here, really, in the United States, because I'd been traveling for work and they didn't know what I had at the time and kept treating me for pneumonia. This was. Was late mid to late February 2020 and on into March. And I was not even myself again until about June of 2020. And then at Christmas time, I allowed my parents to come. And my mom has dementia. They're very elderly, all of that. They're still living on their own. They won't let. Let me move them over here. They won't live with me, nothing. So they came and brought Covid with them. And everybody got sick with COVID but just minorly, except for me. I ended up in the hospital with blood clots and everything else. And now I'm being treated at the post Covid clinic at uab. And this was December, and I'm still having issues. When I got the vaccine, both times I got very sick. The second. Second one I got Monday will be two weeks ago. The reaction I got from that shot was as bad as when I initially had Covid, but it only lasted for a day. It was weird. I went to bed that night. I felt horrible, horrible. And couldn't function all day. Went to bed, woke up fine. It was weird.

[01:00:39] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Wow. Well, my son, it's been awful. Yeah. I. My son, he said that the one in Tampa and at the restaurant that he works at, 50% of the workers had Covid. And so there was very little chance that he wasn't going to get it. But he started having heart pains only. That was his only thing. And so he went to the ER because it had lasted a couple of days, and they ran all the tests, and then he said, well, do you think I should have a COVID test? And they went, well, we might as well. And it came back positive. And, you know, he just had his first baby a year ago and his whole family and everything. And he stayed isolated. And the family didn't get it. They went out and got the test, and slowly he's been coughing more. And, you know, they make him still go back to work. He was off for like a week. But, you know, I. He's still showing symptoms, but again, for him, it was a fairly mild incident. I mean, he was working.

[01:02:02] KAREN MAYO: He needs to stay on top of it, though. I've had heart, lung, and pancreas issues from it. They. It caused inflammation in each of those organs. It threw me into diabetes, which I did not have before. And because my pancreas is inflamed and I have cardiac problems, I have to take blood thinners, which I didn't have a problem with before. And I only have 40% of my lung capacity. I'm hoping it'll get better. They tell me it will, but it may take a year, up to a year, but I'm still going to be careful. But, you know, we can't just keep living in bubbles. And I'm working from home, so, you know, I'm getting a little tired of it. I do go out in nature, but.

[01:03:03] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Well, you know, like, it's been. So I. Like, I say, you know, I'm. I had my two kids at home, which was alternately good and bad, you know, and they weren't as careful as I am, you know, like, you know, one day my daughter told me, she said, yeah, if I give this ride, you know, to this girlfriend of mine, she'll pay me to do it. And so I was like, okay with that. And then, like, after she'd been doing it for a month, she goes, yeah, you know, she works at a nursing home. I go, what? You can't be picking her up. I mean, you know, and then being in a car, oh, my God, I'll pay you not to do it.

[01:04:00] KAREN MAYO: Exactly.

[01:04:02] TOSCA HIEFTJE: And I. You know, it was so weird in that friend that died of leukemia. Boy, they were super, super careful that nothing came into that home. And when I. After he died and I went up there, she had all the masks and the temperature thing, you know, right at the front door. And you did not get past there if you had anything. You know.

[01:04:33] KAREN MAYO: I'm. I'm. I'm regretting not doing that at Christmas, but with my son and him being on the spectrum and everything having changed so much with my mom and her having dementia and, I don't know, I let people guilt me into letting them come, and they had been around someone who had not been careful.

[01:04:57] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Well, and, you know, like, I. Pretty. I don't know, maybe outspoken or. I don't know what it is, but I had a guy the other day, you know, he goes, well, can I give you a hug? And I'm like, no, I am a big hugger, and I like all that stuff, but no way can you get anywhere near me. You know, Like, I was. I. I didn't know him, and I wasn't very comfortable with that. You know, I mean, I didn't know his background, but I certainly hug people's things. But I stay away from my grace and everything, because I was. I'm thinking I'm 65 years old and I'm a smoker, and I would not survive it. And I. I keep saying the biggest thing that I can do for myself is to quit smoking. That would be a big help. And I'm kind of trying to do that. I never forget.

[01:06:15] KAREN MAYO: I know it's hard. My entire family smokes, but my parents, my Siblings, grandparents, they all smoked. My siblings, the ones that are still with us, they all still smoke. And I have never smoked. And I can't. I can't be around it. I can't breathe. It hurts my sinuses really bad. Just everything. But I know that it's really hard to quit, especially if you've been smoking a long time.

[01:06:52] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Well, and I have, and I just haven't gotten into a place where I can focus on it. I've quit a bunch of times now. I just say I stopped smoking, and every time I quit for six years. And then I just went out with my sisters and I was just gonna smoke that one cigarette and I. The next day I was buying a pack. I mean, it took me nothing to start up again. And I kind of have to remember that I can quit, but I gotta stay quit. So once I quit, I'm just gonna have to just never smoke again.

[01:07:41] KAREN MAYO: You have to avoid situations that can pull you back in. It's just. It's like drinking, you know, you don't. If, if you quit drinking, you don't go to bars where people are drinking, you don't go to parties where people are drinking, any of that until you're sure that that's not going to influence you into starting up again. It's hard. Like I said, it's hard.

[01:08:08] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Well, and I keep lying to myself. I keep saying, oh, you just go to the store, you won't buy cigarettes. And then I say, oh, well, just buy a pack of cigarettes and just take one. And I just keep lying to myself. I know I'm going to the store and I'm buying a pack of cigarettes, I'm gonna smoke the whole thing. But I keep telling myself I'm not, oh, I have to give you my phone number and you give me yours and we'll, we'll talk on our own.

[01:08:44] KAREN MAYO: Yeah, I'm sure we met this experiment all up.

[01:08:52] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Okay, so do you want my phone number?

[01:08:55] KAREN MAYO: Sure, go ahead.

[01:08:57] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Okay. 251,654, 819-18191.

[01:09:10] KAREN MAYO: Okay.

[01:09:13] TOSCA HIEFTJE: And then my email, just for purposes, is H, I, E, F, like in Frank. T, like in Tom, J, like in John. E, like an elephant. P, like in Tosca, M, like in Maria at gmail dot com.

[01:09:36] KAREN MAYO: I won't even ask what that is about.

[01:09:40] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Well, that first part of it is my last name. I married. You know, I was living near Holland, Michigan, so I married a Dutchman. And so my first name is Italian, my last name Dutch. And it's kind of weird.

[01:09:57] KAREN MAYO: I didn't Catch. I didn't hear. I didn't hear your last name when you introduced yourself, so. So I didn't know that.

[01:10:07] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Well, it's pronounced in the Netherlands and it is pronounced by the family as He Fia. So I think Hefia goes better with my first name. But you can say either one because we hardly ever use that name. We all go by first names. And I tried to name my children a lot simpler first names. I have Josh, Justin, Jake, Jamin and Ashley.

[01:10:46] KAREN MAYO: Okay. And I have Jimmy, who's named after both grandfathers named James and two uncles each on, on both sides. My. I have a brother named James and my husband has half brother named James. So it was easy having a boy. It was the girl name that had everybody fighting.

[01:11:12] TOSCA HIEFTJE: That was the same for me every time that I had a baby. It was except for the first one I knew was a boy and was a boy. And then the rest of them were all the opposites. I had. I forget which name I had picked out for Ashley. And she became the girl, you know, and the woman next to me was supposed to have a girl and had a boy. So she was going to name her baby Ashley. And I thought that would be good. And I named her Ashley Susanna Hefea. So her initials would be Ashley. And I got it away from the J's. And my last baby didn't have a name for 14 days because we just couldn't agree on it. I wanted to name him Josiah. And the rest of the kids who were like already older, much older. I had four children right together. And then I have a straggler. I had to change his birth certificate from baby to like, now it's Jacob.

[01:12:40] KAREN MAYO: Oh.

[01:12:43] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Well.

[01:12:45] KAREN MAYO: I wish I had more than one, but it was not in the cards.

[01:12:52] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Well, and I just popped them out like, you know, people were at that time. I have a 45 year old, a 44 year old, a 40 year old, a 38 year old and a 27 year old. No, he's 28 now.

[01:13:16] KAREN MAYO: It sounds like my dad, my oldest half brother would be 77 this August. And then, and then there's five more under him. And then me, I'm 52. My younger brother is 51. And the youngest of my father's children, my younger sister is 47. So we ranked my father's children raged in age from 77 to 47.

[01:13:54] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Wow. That's what I thought, you know, like should do, you know, you should raise your children when you're young or when you're old. Well, I just did it all the Time I did it from the time I was 19. The youngest one got the advantage of having four other ones that knew everything. Well, mom, I didn't get to do that when I was his age. Different times. I'm worn out by now. Just give him what he wants. That child went to law school with me. I got pregnant my second year and then I never had a babysitter. And so I took him everywhere with me. And when he was about 10, he started writing policies to me and contracts. Okay, okay.

[01:15:06] KAREN MAYO: My time when I went back, when I decided to go back because it was too hard with a new baby working 60 hours a week in a law firm. I mean, I was in court a week after my C section and I have to take a breast pump to court with me and pump on break and put it in coolers or just throw it away. It was awful. And I brought my baby to work with me until he was eight months old and put him in a pack and play in my office. And then I had clients always wanting to touch him and pick him up and everything. And I couldn't handle it, but I couldn't handle that working 60 hours a week and having this little baby. So I quit and went back to school. So it was hard doing graduate school and working. I was working two part time jobs because I couldn't get. Well, I can really do a full time job with a little baby and I had no help. And so, yeah, he went to school with me. I completely get you. And he has grown up. He's grown up at UAB and feels very comfortable there and that's where he wants to go to college. And I know that they have the resources to help him with his spectrum issues. So I completely get it.

[01:16:33] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Yeah, that's what I.

[01:16:40] KAREN MAYO: Yeah, I mean, we, we can, we can wrap up, Courtney. It's not a problem.

[01:16:48] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Yeah. I'm just so glad that we did this and I appreciate Courtney StoryCorps and all that you do to facilitate this. And I'm so glad that we talked. Karen, I'm so glad to meet you and I'm all done. I will just pause this conversation till we have another one.

[01:17:12] KAREN MAYO: Yeah, I'm. I mean, same here. I'm glad that we did this and I appreciate you, Courtney, and I'm glad you participated and I got to meet you and make a new friend and I mean, I just. I didn't know what to expect with this today and. But I wanted to give it a try. Even if I got put with somebody that was the exact antithesis of everything that I believe and the way that I live my life, just because I do think it's interesting. And I actually ran for State office in 2018 in Shelby county and Shelby county. Well, the district I live in, North Shelby, is one of the five most Republican districts in the United States. And I ran as a Democrat.

[01:18:07] TOSCA HIEFTJE: So I had to have a lot.

[01:18:08] KAREN MAYO: Of difficult conversations with people. And I always found out that we had more in common than not. If we could just get past these are belief to see that we do have more in common than not, and then just kind of work from there.

[01:18:36] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Well, you know, my claim to fame of diverse living situation, I've never been, I don't know, it's always been very challenging. I lived in Selma in 2005 and ran a restaurant on a paper mill that was a little different, you know, and I painted my dog's toenails and the Cajun guy that lived next to me, he goes, you know, honey, you're gonna have to calm down a little bit. We don't treat our dogs like that. And I'm like, yeah, okay.

[01:19:29] KAREN MAYO: I love Thelma. I think it's been forgotten by a lot of people and a lot of folks need help down there. And I, I go every March for the Bloody Sunday March, but I try to do things the rest of the year to support economic development in that area because they really need it.

[01:19:54] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Oh my God, they do need it. And when I was there, I. It was just an eye opening experience. It was so different for me. The first time I went on the paper plants, I had like cut off shorts and flip flops and sunglasses and I was driving a BMW and I had my white child with me. And I go driving on to the, you know, plant and they're like, oh, hey, lady, you are not getting on this plant. I'm like, what? Where am I?

[01:20:33] KAREN MAYO: I can see that. I can definitely see that.

[01:20:37] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Yeah.

[01:20:37] KAREN MAYO: One of these places where a lot of the people don't realize that the folks that they vote for are the ones that hurt them the most.

[01:20:49] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Well, it is. And I learned to make the best macaroni and cheese at Strong Restaurant. My son and I were, you know, we were the only white people in there. And I was like, I actually wrote a story about that. Race relations through food, through macaroni and cheese.

[01:21:14] KAREN MAYO: I love it.

[01:21:17] TOSCA HIEFTJE: The chef or the cook, you know, she came out and I was ranting and raving about how good this macaroni and cheese is. And she came out to the table and sat down and gave me the recipe, and I've been making it the same ever since.

[01:21:33] KAREN MAYO: Oh, wow. I'd be interested to know. I would be very interested. We are Mac and cheese connoisseurs, and we are.

[01:21:46] TOSCA HIEFTJE: Well, we'll have to try that out because I've got a couple of other women in box in this. We're gonna have macaroni and cheese cook off.

[01:21:59] KAREN MAYO: Somebody has one. And I'm trying to remember now what organization it is. They do, like, the chili cook off for Exceptional Foundation. There's a Mac and cheese. We went to it. I'm trying to remember who it was that held it, but it was just heaven. All the different Mac and cheeses. Wow.

[01:22:24] TOSCA HIEFTJE: I know. This is. I mean. Yeah. I just think it's fun. And I. You know, that's how I get involved with food. And I always. I try to get the story out of the food, you know, like, when I eat my life, you know, I gotta know how this is all done. And it all started with that Mac and cheese at that restaurant. Because, you know, like, at first it was so uncomfortable to be in there, and everybody seemed to be staring at us. And then once I ate that macaroni and cheese, and everybody was like, yeah, you know, And I learned to make buttermilk pie down there.