Caroline Palmer and Beatriz Menanteau

00:04 Hello, I'm Beatrice menanteau. And I'm the violence prevention programs unit supervisor at the Minnesota Department of Health. Today is April 16th, 2021 and I am located in Minneapolis Saint Paul Area with mdh research Department of Health located in St. Paul. And I'm here today with Caroline Palmer, longtime friend, and colleague, who is the Safe Harbor program director at the Minnesota Department of Health.

00:41 Hello, thank you. My name is Caroline Palmer and I am located here in Minneapolis. Minnesota. As Beatrice said, I am the Safe Harbor program director at the Minnesota Department of Health. My age is 53 years old and I am working with a longtime friend and colleague in this interview and Beatriz.

01:05 So I thought we would begin today by talking about, Safe Harbor itself. And then we could go a little more into the background about it. But the Safe Harbor program, is based in the Minnesota Department of Health, and it has been in place. Now. We're almost a decade if you count the time when it was actually passed into law and then built up into a system and then actually enacted and you know, all people came to work for it. So the Safe Harbor system is based in a public health concept, but it also partners with the Minnesota Department of Human Services and also the Minnesota Department of Public Safety. And then there are nearly 50 grantees located throughout the state of Minnesota, that provides community-based services to victims of human trafficking. Our primary focus is on youth through the age of

02:05 24 and the Safe Harbor system. Really began with looking at sexual exploitation of young people. It's now expanded to also look at Labor trafficking as well. As Sophia trees actually was really instrumental in the early days of building the Safe Harbor Law. So maybe you can talk a little bit of fries. Thank you. Yeah, it's amazing to think how

02:35 How long we but you know, when working in this and how many changes and what the progress has been along the way it certainly isn't, It's a Wonderful system but it isn't something that's been built overnight. So I think that history is is really valuable and it's really interesting to to think back on. So so I sort of came to this this area of Human Rights and the public health, and human trafficking through a roundabout, my man, and I think that this history of the little bit. I will, because I think it gives some perspective on how my involvement in the approach that we take in in, in, in this work. My background is from Chile and South America, and I think there is, but one are raised in the United States. And I think that the sort of multi-layered approach to my personal identity, helps me sort of an is Ben Affleck.

03:35 And how I have done the work and the type of work that I've done in my path to getting to human trafficking work. So the, you know, I studied law, my background is in law, but then after some time with corporate litigation and went into, human rights work with an organization called The Advocates for human rights, and that was really where I began my work with human trafficking issues. It's a non-profit non-governmental organization. I'm and I was focusing on the women's human rights program gender-based violence, which did work internationally, nationally and locally on issues of domestic violence, sexual violence and human trafficking and really using this human. Right? International framework to create systems. Change, weather in law, where in practice or within the justice system and it was with the advocates for human rights.

04:35 We were asked to do set up an assessment of what was happening in Minnesota with regard to human trafficking. We have had a law on the books for many a few years and but there was this sentiment that maybe the law wasn't being used in the way that it was intended or we just have questions but was it, how was it being used? So there was an assessment, initially a later. If you know, there were few major things know, the law wasn't being used in the way that it could be used. And so, the, and there were reasons the religion of it reasons, the penalties, weren't high enough. The prosecutors didn't want to use that long. Maybe other laws there was other barriers and sentencing excetera. So, you know, our approach throughout.

05:35 The throughout the state to to identify. Okay, where is some some wiggle room? Where can we make some changes and that included increasing the penalties? I'm so that the law would be more useful for prosecutors. And again when I talked about in the penalties use against perpetrators and buyers and then we also realized in this work that the victims of commercial sexual exploitation and trafficking were caught in this limbo where they were being treated as victims and recognized sometimes as victims but also criminals because our laws linked with prostitution and prostitution is a crime. So and especially with you

06:31 This suggests a conflict exists for use an adult's but for you they were really, you know, identified as juvenile delinquents as well as children in need of services on. But there wasn't necessary service response outside of the traditional system. So we're as this is a conflict that exists for Youth and adult the community as a whole seem to be ready to address this for Youth and I remember a lot of conversations.

07:07 With partners and judges and that you know Caroline you were part of this as well trying to understand. Hey, what what is it that you do? And how do you approach you to abandon traffic in what system exists to provide services? What happens when you arrest in criminalize excetera and really asking questions? And then finally the question, do you think that there could be a different way that we could approach you? And in a lot of times of seeing how well, how else can we get them off the street? How else can we? We don't have, can't criminalize help me pick him up. So there was this that that that traditional barriers letter saying how can we think outside the box and the community as a whole was ready to try and there was some lead prosecutor there was some lead service organizations and really seem to some tremendous community.

08:07 Leaders that were able to sit as they left. Let's try something else and take that approach. And I remember prosecutor saying we're no longer going to prosecute juveniles, regardless of what the law says, we're going to try something else and and that you don't really got behind us. Being able to pass the Safe Harbor Law and Carolyn. Do you remember the the research article that could have showed us that this was a prevention approach to the harms of human trafficking and that our community, we could save so much money and resources. If we could prevent the trafficking in the front end and an address and it went interact with these youth at risk. I'm differently. And so the Safe Harbor. Law was drafted and reviewed people picked it up and end. It didn't look like what it looks like. Now when it first started, it was in a very different in a slightly different different levels of protection, but in the end, what we have

09:07 Minnesota is is a law that goes just to things because there are safe harbor laws across the state and and they are very different and so it's important not to lump them together. What it does is that number one, decriminalizing used, but then also providing that network of services and that system that exists and I think it does take this public health approach, born out of a human rights approach that I would have mentioned. I was born into, or worked it been in and it's multi-layered multi-dimensional and it, it has not just one. Agency is many agencies involved in it and that reflects the overall, I think trafficking to

09:56 But really do want to add to anything about that time in history that you remember.

10:01 Sure, absolutely. So I came into my involvement with the human trafficking work in Minnesota and the Safe Harbor development because I was the law and policy manager at the Minnesota Coalition against sexual assault. And I was there for about 10 and 1/2 years before I came to the Minnesota Department of Health and somen. Casa was very involved with that task forces that were put together in order to look at our human trafficking laws, in the state, including developing the Safe Harbor Law. We were also part of the no wrong door process, which was the three-year process after the law was first passed in 2011, in which we built the system essentially, and many, many, many different people came together in order to create a Statewide system, very multidisciplinary approach. And so after three years in 2014, the system was Pat's Frame.

11:01 It was ready to go while the live bait reset. It's it's definitely changed over the years. I came into this work prior to being at the Minnesota Coalition against sexual assault, as a lawyer to both lawyers. We actually first met through our work at the national lawyers Guild and doing social justice response. You're in Minnesota. I spent five years as a staff attorney at the Minnesota AIDS project, which I think was my early seed for getting interested in the overlap between law and public health there. I was working on issues impacting families when a parent had hid. So we were planning and making sure that the children were cared for and doing other estate planning work, as well as in the corrections system that because he worked to make sure that people who are incarcerated had access to care.

11:56 I also worked at the Minnesota State Bar Association for a few years doing their access to Justice work, which included promoting legal services and pro bono work. And, you know, it is my background really lead to interest in public policy, work and development of laws and trying to make sure that we have systems in place that work well for people. And it's always a challenge because we know probably no more than ever right now that our systems have their flaws in them. But we do our best to try to identify people's needs work through them, and make change. That will make a difference of my role in the past few years, before I came to ndh, was to work with the Safe Harbor system in terms of legislative change. So, I was part of developing and working on the passage of a different additional laws that impacted humans.

12:56 Trafficking response in the state and also as part of my role at the Minnesota Collision against sexual assault. We partnered with the Ramsey County Attorney's Office to write the Safe Harbor protocol guidelines for the state of Minnesota and those were recently updated to last year. So when I joined the Minnesota Department of Health, in 2018, I was thrilled to be part of the Safe Harbor system and to carry on the work of the first Safe Harbor director, who is named, Lauren Ryan and she did an amazing job getting the system up and running building a system of regional Navigators that represent a different parts of the state and acted as connectors for all the different resources in their areas, working with the support services providers, and then also coordinating with the Department of Human Services in terms of grants for shelter housing Outreach and the child welfare and vulnerable adult responses.

13:56 But it was a lot to build on. And by the time I came, there was also a lot of work building in terms of Labor trafficking, and exploitation response and broader partnership with the tribal nations in Minnesota. So, it's been a great honor over the past, nearly three years to help to the continue to build the system. We work with evaluator to see what we can do, in terms of stakeholder response and youth response to make changes. Expand the types of services that we provide and also identify areas where we have cats. So now I'm kind of brings us to our work in Minnesota, which I think is is so interesting. Is this public health basis that it's all founded upon and I think particularly for Beatrix? And I it's also really interesting as lawyers to be working in this public health field and and bringing difference.

14:56 Approaches that we know from the Warriors into this world, and I don't know if you want to talk a little bit more about that.

15:03 Sure. Sure, I think.

15:06 You know, one of the things that I think is so fascinating about at an end. It's so exciting about having been apart of the Safe Harbor system in the human trafficking prevention movement in Minnesota. Is that it was really an example where change the law was changed, but it didn't just sit there. It wasn't. Just, let's just change something in the books and end that to me, speaks to how law and policy and being a lawyer and everything is more full spectrum, a soda, but it's not just changing something in the books. But then how do you implement that, how do you practice that? And that's where what you mentioned about, you know, the love of shape. But then we took a few years to actually build it in the state gave, an investment will allow us to do that. And I think that it is

16:06 Our system in our arm movement is the Richer for it. It's also I believe Richard because we have this multidisciplinary approach. I think that being within the realm of Public Health and law, helps me navigate the historical presence of the anti-trafficking movement in the criminal justice system and in law and weather in administrative law. Or it helps me navigate that world a little bit better so that I can better translated into action and movement within, you know, this the framework and within the agency that we purposely chosen which is public house and I'm going to pay it, it helps me understand policy. It helps me because I was part of drafting pull up and moving it forward and part of those early conversation.

17:06 I when it comes to further decision-making I can dig deep and remember why we tried to use certain language or why we tried to and you know start an approach and I didn't think that that bass is really grounds being it helps a lot. I'm either you don't need to be an attorney to do it. But I think that's where I have found some some help and understanding and navigating and then taking it away from or not. Just taking it away from but rather, you know, recognizing that it's not just human trafficking is not just a criminal justice issue, but how can you translate what we want in our various roles within public health, for example, and

17:50 I also, you know, we've talked about within, you know, Public Health. There were rather Unique in Minnesota about putting our Safe Harbor and having such a presence in that trafficking prevention and public health. There's no doubt that human trafficking is Revenge public health issue and a human rights issue, justice issue xcetera, but me together, sort of had this opportunity to figure out and Define what that means, and because it is a new area, there is a of, what does it mean to be a public health issue of human trafficking? And in that role? I also think I also did back into my advocacy routes because a lot of the tread traditional public health issues, they become important because you have surveillance you have prevalence. Are you have something that can show that it's impacting such a wide range of the population with chronic diseases Etc.

18:50 Environmental water safety excetera you can you can you can link to data and surveillance in this realm. When we haven't had that we have criminal justice. On the rest. We have limited surveillance and prevalence data. So are our buildings in a public health framework requires some advocacy and that you know, I think that both you and I hope you have that background and advocacy a little bit to to be able to say this is an issue. And how can we create that I'm knowledge? And and how can we push this issue to Beam? Not just label the public health issue, but to truly be treated and as such and get that attention.

19:36 Yeah, I agree. And I also think vice-versa to you. No kind of approaching the area of law for the public health lens. And we've had so many interesting discussions with our Pure to our lawyers about public health Concepts that they weren't necessarily that familiar with. I remember when we were doing the Safe Harbor protocol guidelines part of our work was to build all these different groups of experts to bring in, you know, your experience so that we can have the best possible guy as possible. And so we had to do cursive prosecutors strips of folks working in child welfare judges, you know, lots of different disciplines, but sometimes the public health Concepts either met something different or we're not familiar and I think the biggest one that we have lots of conversation about was harm reduction and I know basically from spending, you know, a few years working in the Hy-Vee. We're all how important harm reduction is.

20:36 U-Haul safety and well-being. It can be a controversial concept though. Sometimes particularly when you're talking with you, because harm reduction means that you are working with that person watching with them and kind of going at their Pace as they are trying to address of the particular harm in their life and that maybe that they're not ready to leave money help or readily willing to go in and go to a center go and work with the courts or the police, or anybody else. And so I know that we had a long time, talking about that and trying to come to an understanding and it was so important because our advocacy partners and our HealthCare Partners were so used to harm reduction concept.

21:25 And I think now, you know, while it's still sometimes makes people uncomfortable, especially again, when you're talking with you because you want them to be safe and you want them to get out of these difficult situations. We also know when you push people, they're not always ready to get help and that actually backfires and you may lose them in the process to ever wanting to participate again. So I thought that was always one of the most interesting conversations that we had in that. I remember that, I remember having conversations that said, if it will, if we don't arrest they're going to leave. And if you just take him to a place for, for services and and safety there, they're going to leave and finding having to get comfortable with it. And having to help and work with people to the week. As a movement could be comfortable with the idea that yes, they might leave, but if you build a system that meets our needs, that might come back.

22:25 To an end and dumb. That, that would be our goal as opposed to sort of this more mandated approach. Yeah, so that's a great Point Caroline. Thanks for

22:38 Yeah, and I think about some of the programs that we work with and what they say about that relationship building. You know, where there's a youth who maybe is not entirely sure they want to be there and I leave, but they take a phone number and they start calling The Advocate back and then they just check in or text with them and let them know where they are. Just let them know they're okay. And then maybe they come back again. You know what, it's it's in and out. It's such a different difficult situation for people to be and it's not something where you can just flip a switch and I no longer being trafficked directs waited at the complexities of everything that rises particular issue or are so compelling. And I mean particularly is, you know, you talked about in the human rights background. You know what we're talking about everything from racism to

23:33 Homophobia and transphobia were talking about poverty, were talking about ableism. And then looking at disability. We're talking about nationality and immigration status to me. It just goes across so many different areas and is so important that we look at it, you know, through that public health. Peace because so many public health pieces intersect with our communities in different ways. And then I think about all the people we work with, at the Department of Health, who are responding to mental health, Suicide, Prevention, drug use infectious disease and all of those areas overlap, but then I also think about Messick violence and sexual violence in the way. They overlap with the issues of trafficking and is one of the things that you your comments. Got me thinking about, is the fact that this public health is strategically multi-disciplinary, and I know that that

24:33 Back or your six-pack to sit, in my own background and part of why, you know, my password brought me in the public health in law is because of that multidisciplinary approach, and it can can navigate it can speak to other areas. It can understand and try to be that bridge that you've indicated with them in a law enforcement and Human Services and other other a note systems, as well as the other piece is is that it, you know, takes its prevention and approach. And so has an attorney often times. I was responding to things after they occurred and trying to address the harm mitigate or minimize the harm, but it already occurred. And so this value with that public health has to changing culture primary prevention changing, creating systems change so that the horn doesn't occur in the first place, I think.

25:33 Has allowed me to shift, that sort of the effort and the goals of nitrous minimizing a hard but trying to prevent it in. The first place is very valuable. And then, yes, you know, you mentioned this link with our in our unit in the violence prevention programs unit at the Department of Health. We have Safe Harbor program is situated with our sexual violence in parallel to our sexual violence prevention program, which also takes a primary prevention approach to shift in culture to create change an end. That was sort of

26:14 A natural connection I think but also recognizing it within the scope of violence. And then the other elements in the other tactics that we can take, which connects again with our Criminal Justice System often times.

26:31 Yeah, sweetie. I got so I think it's really interesting. Even though the criminal justice system and other forms of justice system, child welfare, Juvenile Justice, things like that are primarily intervention approaches. I think they all have especially in the context of trafficking started to look at prevention or proactively to even if it's not primary prevention. I think their hope is that they are intervening. There are trying to prevent further harm a secondary and tertiary level and that they are making sure that they are also part of prevention efforts.

27:12 We are there's education for you. So they're not interacting with the systems. I mean, one of the most important efforts I can think of is our relationships and not a number, which is the lap. 146 curriculum. That provides training for youth at risk and really helps them to better understand the drivers behind trafficking and exploitation of what it means to dance, the sific lie in their life, but then that also makes me think about what we learned about youth in the recent years for the Minnesota student survey and how that is influencing responses in many different systems to an NBA. I know you were really instrumental and getting the Minnesota student survey question on sexual exploitation.

28:01 Yeah, I just talked about that a little bit and this is one of those round Square when I came in to Department of Health and really operating trying to operationalize of public health approach to human trafficking. I looked and I asked, how are these other areas of Public Health getting their data and their their prevalence information? And so I was directed to do multiple surveillance tools that exist. But one of those was a massive student survey in this is a survey that's done across agencies Department of Education.

28:42 Is done every 3 years for various?

28:46 Grade levels and it asks questions of the students synonymous, but it and it and it covers a wide spectrum, question a life, you know the issues and made addressing issues of suicidal you. No thought or access to care, access to food, you know, I'm many many of our public health issues that were trying to address our get data from this survey and while there was sexual violence or sexual assault-related questions on the survey. They might have been a little bit.

29:32 Not giving us information we needed and at the same time there was no question on sexual exploitation. And so we were getting data from this really buy all source. And so we went through our unit went, through a process of trying to one in a work with a community to understand what data, what information do they need? That would be useful for sexual assault and exploitation. And, and then crafting a valid question with a question to a, to include in the survey. And then this survey is, so we made amendments, has actual cell phones question, but then also was able to add a question, sexual exploitation. I think is interesting to note is that this, the survey decide whether or not they participate or not? And so, there's also this level of strategic approach and advocacy in an ass. Being able to ask

30:29 Sensitive questions while and supporting the team in in, in getting it out of there, without losing sue, a school district for participating because otherwise we lose a lot of data. And with that, they were Brave Vape, the included, the question. And with that, we got our state's first. Prevalence data for Minnesota on the issue of sexual exploitation of trading. And we can take that and use that along with our qualitative data, and what we know from the providers, and end really finds you in our program, and make sure that we're meeting who needs that the needs of people that were supposed to be serving, and it gives us a lot more guidance guidelines and guidance to

31:17 Yeah, I think so. I love having that, that survey data, and we're partnering with the University of Minnesota School of Nursing with professors. They are Lauren Martin and Barbara McMorris in terms of battery, analyzing the data. And like you said, looking for all the overlap with other issues like suicide, ideation and drug use partner abuse. And also, I think what we found was, the impact on youth, who are transgender or nonbinary, was higher impact, which I think we knew anecdotally, but started to have some real data to show us. It also showed us again, but we probably knew anecdotally, but that use of color. Were the ones who were primarily impacted Interstate particularly Native American Youth, but also black youth, as well. So it really started to open doors for us. In terms of the

32:17 Nation that we had. And I think also all of this information gives us a better idea of where the gaps are in the system that we have for Safe Harbor where where may be falling short and having a culturally specific types of resources or more resources. Geographically. It's a big state and we can't at this point reach every corner of the state. Although we know trafficking and exploitation reaches every corner of our state. And I think also has lots of conversations about survivors and their role and horse survivors, were key to the Safe Harbor Law getting past. They were testifying at the legislature. They were involved with the planning. They are part of the service delivery system, but I think we're also seeing now a growth in the role of survivors and how they are supporting the work, how they are leaving the work.

33:17 And how are they changing the work that we're doing? And that's been a big conversation for us as a state agency and how we give out, grants to the programs were looking for Survivor. Let the program when we can order Survivor presents. And we're hoping to continue to work with survivors in the various projects that we have said there are voices represented.

33:40 Actress anything else you want to add about that? Is just a very exciting time, right now, as it has been, you know, each other, all of the stories. And all of the progress that's been made. I write, I get very excited because to me at it, while it shows us the show, the gaps that gives us directions where to go. And I, and they just get excited because I think about, okay, this is what we've done in years. What can we do in in another, you know, 5:00 and yours as well, and it keeps keeps it going and keeps the energy there and I'm learning a lot. There's, you know, out, there's been missed ups, there's been things that I would have done differently but and things that we've learned and been better adjusted and continue to be that and, you know, always looking for unintended consequences and then adjusting where we where we might miss them.

34:38 But I'm at a time. Cited for for what's to come and and how we can use the tools that we were developing further to

34:49 Yeah, I think I think so. And I definitely hear you. I mean being in a watching the system grow over the past decade or more, there has been so much learning everyday. I think I learned something new about this work, either through a partner or Survivor or

35:10 You know, just the way that we're responding to this issue and different ways. It's been an interesting year in terms of the traffic movement because of the impact of the pandemic because of the impact on how services are delivered from a public health perspective and being in a health agency where the covid response was. So front-and-center, it really all them were made us look at, you know, how to our services work and don't work especially when they have to pin it very quickly. Really in a matter of a couple of weeks into doing their work differently here, virtually online with distance, you know, and they can sure that you stand fall through the cracks. So, it was incredible challenge over the past year and I think again, it is exposed to us.

36:05 As the covid pandemic has for many, many different areas issues of equity that needs to be worked through in our Safe Harbor system. Learning taking that information in the shifts that are are our partners and panties made to survive. This continue to serve their purpose of observing, the youth care about that.

36:33 At taking that so that we can now build the capacity to not only responding in crisis, but to, to process crisis and how can we be the same support better, you know, continuity and preparedness. Because if it's not this pain. Making might be another situation. And how can we continue to? Create can maintain prevention and services at the Forefront of any crisis time to. So we've also been face-to-face with international racial Justice conversation that again has been. So impactful on our service providers that are networking on the youth that they're serving, many of the use that they're serving. Our

37:26 Directly impacted in their day-to-day Life by these really important and critical and often traumatic experiences that are happening. So I think that's last two important soul searching to about how Safe Harbor continues to do. Its work thing is definitely.

37:53 Influences and, and how we're trying to continue to meet the needs.

37:59 Yeah, and I think so. Yeah, absolutely. And I think also about the missing and murdered indigenous women task force and report and the expanded work. I'm missing and murdered indigenous relatives that happening in our state. That was built on the early days of Safe, Harbor work with the garden of Truth report in the shattered Hearts report. Those were reports that were put together by the Minnesota, Indian Women's Resource Center along with researchers, like Sandy Pierce Park involved with the garden of Truth at the Minnesota, New Ulm sexual assault Coalition, you know, so the ongoing issues Interstate to that affect American Indian individuals, women use that are so crucial to our anti-trafficking relationship.

38:48 Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, it's a great pleasure to work with you bae Chase. We've known each other for nearly 20 years or something like that. So it's it's just wonderful to be your colleague and to be working together in all of our efforts to address trafficking exploitation in the state.

39:12 It's it's been a long wonderful journey, and I'm looking forward to what changes and what might come in this effort in the Future 2.