Carolyn Cacho Bowman and Robert Shwab

Recorded November 13, 2020 Archived November 12, 2020 47:35 minutes
0:00 / 0:00
Id: hub000306


One Small Step conversation partners Carolyn Cacho-Bowman [no age given] and Robert Shwab (65) talk about their political beliefs, immigration, and the division in our country.

Subject Log / Time Code

CCB says she wanted to participate because she doesn't know many people who think differently from her.
RS says his grandfather was the most influential person in his life.
RS says he lived in eight cities before coming to Cleveland. They talk about where their children went to school.
CCB talks about being an immigrant from UK. RS talks about being married to a Chinese immigrant.
CCB and RS discuss the economist Thomas Sowell.
RS started out as a Democratic Socialist and is not a Trump policy supporter. CCB talks about how she could not support Trump in this election and considers herself a Centrist.
RS talks about how the media and universities are shutting out conservative thought.


  • Carolyn Cacho Bowman
  • Robert Shwab

Venue / Recording Kit


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00:02 Robert shwab. I'm 65 years old today is November 13th 2020. I'm in my home in Cleveland Heights, Ohio and my partner in this conversation. Today is Carolyn Cacho Bowman.

00:24 Good morning.

00:27 My name is Carolyn Cacho Bowman.

00:31 Is on November 13th 2020?

00:41 What's your image? And where are you living? I am living. I am currently in my home in Lyndhurst, Ohio and my conversation part is Robert shwab.

00:57 So Carolyn, why did you want to do this interview today? Can you ask that to Rob?

01:04 Why did you want to do this interview today?

01:09 I'm just generally interested in people and their ideas and their backgrounds and the different experiences that they've had and I knew that was the focus of this program. So I was interested in participating and also I'm retired well working. So I do have some pretty busy but I will sew in short I have the time.

01:50 So no one asked you why were you why did you want to participate in the conversation today?

01:59 I want to participate in the conversation today because I don't think that I am a diversity of opinions and

02:12 I have many friends, but I feel like I don't know that many people who have backgrounds and thoughts that are different from my own very very interested in actually, I like the idea of conversation.

02:34 And in the worst way

02:42 Robert can you ask Carolyn who has been the most influential person in your life? And what did they teach you?

02:51 Okay, I will I would like to say that I just love Carolyn's response to the first question that concept about the kind of reaching out that gets in her life for a diversity of opinion. And remember I'm not here so I hadn't heard Express before like that, but it's up something that I that I feel like I feel that I've lived so I'm going to ask you who has been.

03:26 The most or certainly a very influential a person in your life and you and your way of thinking.

03:37 That's a really tough question because I feel like there's been a lot of people who influenced me overtime, but I would have to claim the errand boy. It's hard to chew when you know if they were complimentary and what they taught me my father taught me.

04:02 To be

04:04 Intensely curious and

04:07 Facts and knowledge from the time. I was very very small.

04:15 My mother

04:18 Was very fierce.

04:21 And she taught me to look out for myself. She taught me that I was responsible for my own for myself.

04:30 That

04:33 In every situation one I had choices and I needed to

04:39 Make one's for myself and not blame any video.

04:46 And I guess he also taught me to work they expected me to work hard.

04:52 They expected me to look out for other people starting with my siblings. But also I smile with them taking care of a white why the people in our community?

05:09 Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

05:18 Can you ask Robert who was the most influential person or persons in your in your life as you see it now the person that I think about it and come back to the actual. He's my grandfather on. My father's side. Also Robert. It's a wonderful that they're gone, but they were wonderful and of course had a very big influence on shaping my character and and and so forth, but they were extremely busy both are working and I have three siblings. So there are four of us running around the house, but my grandfather

06:04 He come over to the house and he actually had the time to spend a lot of time with me and his eye because he was the one that relayed all the stories about family in history and and the my parents know he grew up in his parents. So I would have big influence and I still remember him up stories and

06:31 It was the kind of person that the story always had a point to it and nature or he's a very kind of carthus conservative person. I he did in the depression. He supported his family his parents lost their work and he went out and got work in support of the family. So all those stories about character and human nature gave me a realistic grounding in the world a better sense of what the outside world was like, oh just

07:15 Hello final story. I'm already told about standing on line at the bank and the person in front of him.

07:49 Okay, Carolyn, I'm going to read Roberts bio and I'd love if you could ask him a question about it. Once I'm done reading it.

08:00 He says once a protege of Michael Harrington the other America and a member of the democratic socialists of former Union organizer. I am now a reliable Republican voter. My uncle was the comedian Lenny Bruce and I am a supporter of the first amendment. I am married to a Chinese naturalized citizen and I have two daughters and four granddaughters Ortho or grandchildren. I am also a Godfather to two black young woman age of 21 and 17 who survived childhood and a high crime black neighborhood.

08:43 Does familiar

08:52 Were you born here in Ohio?

09:02 I lived in eight cities that I can rattle off some of them my Aunt Connie going up the coast Miami, Washington DC, Philadelphia, New York.

09:18 Hartford

09:21 Connecticut Milwaukee and then came to Cleveland in 2000

09:29 2020 year in Ohio

09:36 So do not not born in Ohio, but I I Feel Like The Clevelander now after 20 years both my kids here and Grant.

09:53 Did your kids go to heart one of my daughter two daughters one of my daughters went to private school. We were in Connecticut moved here from Connecticut in the middle of high school. And so she stayed at her at a boarding school state of Connecticut boarding school and she was a kid all girl school experience. My other daughter said he sent her the private school. She would run away as if she went through cuz it's totally opposite kids.

10:35 And see what the height I

10:38 4 year

10:41 And a very interesting experience now that I look back at it not an awful experience of the time, but now I actually can charcoal about it. He dropped out dropped appetite. I want you to stop him or came home and said she was quitting school and he said you can't do that.

11:01 And she and every said no that's a terrible idea terrible decision. You can't do that. We don't permit that she said too late. I already did. I've been going to any of my classes and got it's too late. So that was the she's done very well, but she's off to a bad start.

11:24 So it just goes to show it's funny when I see other younger people as parents got in trouble with your kids by My Wayward Daughter.

11:41 Did end up graduating from Case Western?

11:45 Carolyn you also have a child that went to boarding school, right?

11:53 That was

11:55 That was my grandson and he boarded out because he was playing soccer. My daughter did not go did not go to boarding school. My daughter actually attended high and I'm a big fan of honey. I'm just a refugee out here in Lyndhurst because we needed a flat house cuz of my disability but I am intensely interested in in Cleveland Heights in which it well. Yeah, my daughter went to the Newark on a situation where she was like not amused at her parents wanted her to go to a private school. So we made a deal that she was in the top 10

12:44 Avoid going to private school and she did way better than that. So I'm okay and I'll tell high school system as one of the pillars of why I live a good life because she got a really good education. They're spectacular and it's the gift that keeps on giving in lots of ways.

13:15 Wow, it's one of the things that you really liked about. It was that she got to meet black children who were always in the same.

13:30 Situation that we was the the the, you know, very upper like for instance II time. She was talking about a friend who is very excited about a vacation. And so I sent you a where's your friends go and then I got 140 she's going to Ashtabula and I was

14:02 A little taken aback, but this girl was very happy that she was going to go to vacation place go stay out there. You know where at Victoria was really excited that I was Paris. So and she still friends with that girl. And I think that that's a really it's a it's a better situation than my own situation which goes back to why I'm going and I don't really

14:37 I don't feel like I get in touch with people who will different from me. I'm sort of in my own little.

14:44 Bubble

14:50 And I don't know how to get so yeah, so I can see if he has any questions for you.

15:05 So, this is Carolyn I am an immigrant 43-year Survivor of systemic lupus a mother that mother black educated married to a blue collar Union black man, 18 years my senior.

15:26 You said immigrant assassinated by The Immigrant experience? It's so important to the country. If so heart of a country where country of immigrants and that's I know that's a cliche but it's it's so true. I'm I've been researching my own immigrant by great grandfather's history immigrants here and 818 82nd.

16:06 My wife is in her bed. So I married my second wife is Chinese immigrant and a citizen. May I ask where in China food from Mongolia?

16:27 So that's about 200 miles west of facing. So I want to ask you what?

16:40 Well, it's a long story. I'll try to make it I was born in London to

16:50 Hill student well, my mother wasn't really a student. My dad was mutant at the London School of economics.

16:59 I was born there.

17:07 One of the things that I think really shaped me is that before I was born my parents were married and there's phone died. This is back home as the sun died.

17:25 And so my mother folded herself for the death of a child and after she and my father were in England, she read up a lot of child-rearing and she paid a lot of attention to how British people wear their children and they wear them still very very very differently from how are people with the way children until after I was born.

18:03 About eight years after the first baby died at 13 months and

18:10 So she dedicated herself to raising me in a British way.

18:17 And I was taking I was at I was a Health Service, baby.

18:25 And we returned while we were supposed to go back home when I was about 3 months, but that I was a weakling I was awake baby in the doctor in the National Healthcare System refuse to allow my parents to remove a British citizen from

18:46 Britton until he said I was strong enough to do so. I'm about 8 months back home. The first went to America and to see some relatives and do some sightseeing and then we came home by Cher and what happened? Next story is Guatemala at Age 3 for about a year when we were fostering while we were with my grandparents while my parents were here in America when my dad was my and then when I was they came back by then there were three of us and they left both of us. Do all three of us with weren't relatives. They were family, but they build a couple that they paid to take care of.

19:46 Stop at 6 when that happened. I was about eight and a half when they came back to Belize.

19:52 Send my father resign from the government because of a construction move to Trinidad and then there was a sort of a corruption but also my mother was very concerned about my education. And so I moved to America.

20:17 In August 4th 1969. I landed on American doors to live. I want to private school. I went to the National School national school for school for girls.

20:38 Bad experience and but interesting and interesting insight into American and then I went to probably one of the druggiest high schools in America that does the Chevy Chase High School, but would without graduate to become leaders and you know, it was a very popular we all did well and then Canada.

21:14 Find University what's up, yet mastered only one problem with this conversation in my mind, and then I wanted to go to medical school, but I couldn't I couldn't get grounded in Canada Canada and and my father gave me $2,500 and I don't listen to Howard University Medical School.

22:14 I told him I can't work but I have to go to school. What do you want to do and they said open don't worry about the tuition.

22:22 Send medical school, but then I got sick, you know, then the whole new person started and all things went so I am my people are the Gorilla Glue people of Central America.

22:45 My grandparents are from Honduras La Ceiba and they were first-generation in Belize never quite especially my grandfather never spoke with my friend was given an education and he was 25. She was a what do you call a given bride to him arrange married? My mother had no high school because she was removed from school around the age of about fourteen or fifteen. I want to before Rachel continue. I want to suggest before you based on Atomic solar eclipse since I first start since I last talked to Rachel on 90 years old.

23:43 Youth America's pre-eminent economy, economic background and then and there's some essays and he touches on some of your thoughts is that in that book?

24:31 Way of thinking

24:34 You should read you should read what he actually asked to say I have came into play.

24:50 You know, I'm kind of a middle-of-the-road person. My father is violently some of my debating skills occurred at home because I disagreed with your father. I don't believe in communism. I don't think it's a good way of doing things and I'm proud of them hit the road person. Whereas I really like the Thomas soul.

25:20 Are you seeing more of a fan of his but I have probably less of a fan of this as I have to come as I married African American men and have done more research on what actually happened that causes the problem that we have to do it. So I'm not I will take your suggestion cuz I do like me by Glee and I will see what he has to say, but I I have often taken readings were prominent and I didn't have a good basis at that time to be able to counter what he had to say reasons. I've done I think you know, he's kind of like a Ben Carson.

26:14 Somebody that I need my long long time and it was incredibly disappointed me. I paid money to have my daughter go listen to him and I think that and

26:33 These people more about what happened to Garrison Frederick Douglass and these people believe in exceptionalism. And I don't agree with that. I do want to do with it because of my personal experience with my to husband both of whom are African-American and sectionalism until that I have a better basis Brooks and white liberals separate essays on different topics.

27:33 Conversation which is about your political views. Could you briefly describe in your own words your personal political values?

27:48 Rob would you please describe in your own words your political values?

27:55 Yes, so I started I started out as a member of a little bit more loudly please run a member of the democratic socialists.

28:10 And at that time at the gurney Sanders is nefar famous for being part of that group. He was a far-out Marxist that is living on some Marx's communist in Israel at the time and I was over time I moved and now I'm a proud owner and Trump supporter Republican. And so and so might like or my core values as they are constitutional republic Constitution, and I think the Republicans who better job for that my

29:06 I think that this is a great country Matter What ethnicity ethnicity your prom or what race you're you're going to do better here in the US than anywhere else. That's why immigrants in a like yourself and make millions of others want to come here. That's why I believe this is a great country. I also found maybe this is the key to my answer I started out on the left. But what happened was I found out that everything. I thought I believed everything I was told and then I was reading from left this sources. I wouldn't be untrue exaggerated or misinformed and that was on about every topic of cute in the world foreign foreign relations dictatorship vs. Democracy.

30:06 Elations Racial equality of action environment

30:12 Economics taxation almost every single topic immigration climate change heads. I found that it was out of sync with reality that it was utopian that the left is when was Utopia isn't was more grounded in real human nature. Now that's being said, I'm always I'm always on the lookout for problem of the left Democrats are very good identifying issues and problems. I think their Solutions are awful.

31:00 I think Democrats are very good at pointing up probably environment Solutions are terrible so that so like my value is a data database of freedom and liberty.

31:23 The Isle La Belle ask Carolyn now, I forgot the question. What was the shape of your political values?

31:43 I would say that I'm a Centrist.

31:48 And that I can agree with Ivan Republican or Democrat?

31:56 Based on the particular

32:03 I like to see the topic first.

32:09 Before I think about it right now election. I was forced to vote for the Democrat because I think that Trump is Stickman he is he lies?

32:27 Over and over again and I don't want to present at I do think America is a great nation, but it is also a nation that has some very deep. Well, they're not being addressed and I don't think he's the first one to do it. There might be Republicans that I might vote for who might be able to do it but not Donald Trump. He's a man who assaults women in both a mother having a problem with publicans vs Democrat separate issue from

33:10 Donald Trump vs. Joe Biden, I think Joe Biden is a over-the-top decent guy. I don't know that I agree with everything with him, but I just couldn't vote for Donald Trump because he's a liar and he's a sexual assaulted. So having you know, I got pushed to the corner, but but I do think this is a great country, but I think that people who

33:36 Stick to that sometimes it's kind of like the door when I came home and I said to my dad and got a 99%

33:49 And I'm happy and that was the end of what I had to say.

33:53 What Dad said? What was the thing that you didn't get right?

33:59 Do you know what that is? Are you going to know what it is? Next time in America has systemic racism. Mr. Sowell doctors old standing.

34:11 Races of terminates this country and it is the

34:17 Pussing wound that's preventing America from being as great as America can be any country can be great if they have free labor. I mean, you know

34:32 That that's not that's not rocket science to know that so America has existed on free or underpaid labor for very very wrong. And I think that if that doesn't address the Democratic address it then the

34:57 And I think that the solution lies somewhere in between because you can't just decide is going to be no flat rate for the even though I believe in I believe in Regency that people have but I also believe in a platform and the reason to leave in a platform is because I'm conservative on this money. I don't like you don't have to spend so I don't want to pay for emergency room visit when they would have had health care that I don't want to I don't want to wear half of Southern Ohio has terrible

35:57 Education, I don't want people floating around here who have three biggest issues and I don't already really addresses and

36:16 Head on animals and their ignorance. I'm very impressed. But I do think that there are there are solutions to each of those problems that either party might take a hold of them. So I'm not like my friend. I'm not a big green New Deal person, but I am a medicare-for-all person because I think it's cheaper.

36:47 I know that you only have about 5 minutes left.

36:59 Remove on what do you have to say about what Caroline was saying for? Sure.

37:17 I'm

37:19 I'm concerned going back to your care on going back to your very open and comment your about controversial opinion.

37:29 And that's what led me that's how

37:32 That's how I got to understand. What did you say?

37:41 Stores having Stewart, Missouri diversity of opinion and that's how I got to move away from the last of the Democrat in the point of view was getting exposure to like Thomas solar and Larry elgart Beaufort and Glenn Lowry others supposed to Milton Friedman economics economic side. So I'd say our media is liberal arts universities are liberal.

38:25 Foundations are Liberal Liberal and oil together combined they shut out other things. So I am just reading now. I'll give you an example another book. I would recommend called apocalypse ever by Michael shellenberger. This is a 30-year one of our nation's leading activist in environment a liberal on self a Democrat and sell it says that most of what you're hearing to the media is exaggeration lies and misinformation about the environment all around that's probably true and I actually don't partake in it though. I watch NewsHour.

39:25 Listen to NPR. I don't pay attention to the problem is some of those sources of which I have heard.

39:36 Big chew with their finger on the scale and me when somebody says I'm dedicated to this one thing like, you know, what is your idea? So I am not a person who's going to say, I'm 100-percent this way or that way because I think I watched my father and this way and this will only and I you know, I have to make up my mind for myself was try to sway me for instance. He took my husband and I have been to a few more number of times, but I'm used to go to Cuba but then I didn't realize I was very very impressed with certain things on the health-care front.

40:36 I was very impressed. So I think you have to

40:46 Look at it. It's you. Look at your values. I'm a Christian. I am a regular who doesn't agree with the majority of the Evangelist in this country. I believe I am bipolar Jesus Christ and he'll try to follow that until Zach's articles on both sides of the spectrum and I

41:13 The ones that I feel

41:17 Have most of my issues, correct and

41:22 So I could see myself voting for Democrats or I could see myself holding the Republican based on the issue and my own reward of the issue the people who are saying there's no problem with climate change and we need

41:48 This is why we need proper education because America is Brian Lawler. I don't think of educated and therefore cannot exercise thinking and so that's why you end up with some of the numbers that win is overwhelmingly liberal and they filter out.

42:12 They filter out other information and people voted for Trump. And I think that there is media on both sides that are accurate and safe and I think the people have not been educated to be able to parse out.

42:36 What is true and what isn't that the sources are out there just have to be a thinking person and spend less time on Facebook agree on climate because I live in Miami and I will the hotel in Miami Miami Beach Cuban.

43:18 They are white people in their homes and their professions and their businesses, but right now and Cubed now Infamous for its slave doctors. I took my health care to me its core value and future value.

44:18 So we have a

44:28 With James and David if it's terrific, he's my co co board member. Yes or verb, so we went to Cuba we have we have a relationship with them tonight. And please every participant on the arts and culture side when they still understand that it's a police state and that's because of that system. This is the only problem Rachel. Is there a lot of commonality I have with Robert.

45:25 Like Robert is not the poor is not a like a Southern Ohio type of human being. I don't know those people. This is my only thing to say is I'm going to be moving in, a good friend and have a lot in common and you also have different political beliefs. So I think and I and I and again my only disappointment is that just straight down the line. I'm not a straight down the line in person because I think both sides

46:05 Have cute wolves and I think that neither, you know, we haven't talked about racism and I think that racism talked about soul, but I don't agree with soul and I don't agree with so big on again. I've read so in the phone long time, but I'll certainly look at it. But my real life experience with real life African Americans, not me because I've had a different experience has led me to believe the black exceptionalism is a convenient or white people and that it's going to

46:50 Forgive themselves for the original sin. This will not be a great country until it's fixed new racism. I don't believe that systemic racism exists. I do not believe

47:12 Contact information for you guys to watch Lee. We've come to the end of this conversation and I'm going to talk to Mike about to come so yeah, I have to stop okay.