Carolyn Carbaugh and Tom Magri

00:01 Hi. My name is Carolyn Carbaugh. I'm 21 years old. I'll be 22 years old in exactly one week. Today's date is September 20, 2022. I'm recording from Fine Arts library at the University of Virginia, and my partner's name is Tom.

00:19 Hi, my name is Tom Magri I'm 63 years old. Today's date is September 20, 2022. I'm recording from my home out in Louisa, Virginia, and my partner's name is Carolyn.

00:32 And how did you all find out about one small step? And why did you decide to have this conversation? I found out about it through I'm taking a class called political dialogue with doctor Rachel Wall in the education school at UVA. And she had talked about doing this project with one small step, and I was just really, really excited. So I found it through my class. So I didn't see any ads, but I'm really, really excited. So that's how I got here.

01:01 I used to hear about one small step on PBS a little bit, and I must have noticed something at uva because I didn't even remember filling out the form about my bio or anything when somebody called me. I remember I don't even know, you know about me, but that's where I'd heard about it, and that's probably why I was interested in doing it.

01:19 Great. Well, one of the most important parts of this conversation is putting yourself into your partner's shoes, even if just for a moment. So before you have. Before you have your partner's bio, which they wrote when they signed up for the conversation, I'm going to ask each of you to please read your partner's bio out loud. And once you've done this, feel free to ask any follow up questions about what they wrote. So, Carolyn, if you want to start us off with Tom's bio. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. My name is Tom. I'm 63 years old and was originally from Cleveland, but spent most of my life from high school on in the Naples and Lauderdale area of Florida. I have a bachelor's in healthcare administration from Florida Atlantic and my master from Florida International University. My wife and I moved to VA in 2018. We have two sons that are 26 and 30. I started my career as a paramedic environment, spend most of my working years in healthcare finance as director of managed. Oops. Director of managed care and decision support for Bethesda Healthcare System. I currently work for anthem. When it comes to politics and social issues, I'm very much a moderate. I look forward to meeting you and hearing your perspectives on the country, political and social issues and your plans and hopes for the future. The time between where you are in life and where I am went by too fast. I look forward to meeting you.

02:36 Well, that was good. You read that whole thing without slipping into a coma.

02:39 Oh, I had my cursor on the words I need glasses, so I'm like, I should have, like, zoomed in a little more. Do we do follow up questions now, or do we do. Why don't you go ahead and read Carolyn's bio, Tom, and then you guys can do follow up questions.

03:01 Sure. Hi, my name is Carolyn. I'm a fourth year studying anthropology at UVA. I'm from Clifton, Virginia, a small railroad town with cute little restaurants on main street. My freshman year of college, I lost a friend of mine to suicide, and it completely changed my life. Since that time, I've been passionate about changing my own life for the better while learning from the mistakes I had made earlier in my life. I can't wait to meet you. I love getting to learn.

03:26 Okay. My first question was actually about living in Florida. So I was, like, the first thing that came to my mind. What is it like? Because I don't really like the. Like the heat too much. But, like, I was thinking of maybe working in Florida after my graduation. So I was wondering what that was like for you.

03:47 I liked it. My wife never liked it. She's from the Midwest, but her family was there, and my family was there, and it was easier having kids and family around. But I liked Florida. I liked the end of the summer. Don't really like cold weather very much, so. But I've enjoyed it up here, too. You know, if you. Wherever you're living, if you find, there's things to find. And wherever you're at, that can be enjoyable to do. But it's gotten ridiculously expensive down there and so much more crowded than it's been before that even when I go back now, I've only been gone four years. It just seems like, I can't believe the amount of growth that has been there. So I like to go there for. I like small, a few weeks at a time, but it's fine for me now.

04:28 Okay. That's good to know. I'm like, okay, if there's growth, it's got to be. It's got to be a good thing. Yeah. And then the next question that I was thinking about, completely unrelated, was, how did you and your wife meet? And how did you know that she was the one?

04:44 That's a tough one. I got married when I was 27, when I was in college, I like to travel a lot, and I kind of went. Took a long time to get through college because I was working through college. I was initially a paramedic, went to school for that. And that was a great job because I could make pretty good money while I was taking classes. Not quite full time, but I could take care of myself, pay all my bills and all. So I was kind of between. I would spend my last nickel at that time on a trip somewhere. So I was between trips. I was getting ready to go down to Costa Rica, took a temporary job at the county. I was doing, like, scut work. I was painting lines and doing maintenance man stuff. It was just. I needed a few bucks for a couple of months, saving up for my trip. And my wife was working at the health department there, and I saw her every day and liked what I saw and kind of got to know her a little bit. And then actually bumped into her at a club one night and got to talking to her and asked her out. And about a year later, we got married.

05:44 Nice. Sorry, that was, like, completely unrelated. Those are like. Those are my main questions.

05:49 Yeah. I'm not sure with your generation of people are putting off. I think they're putting off getting married longer. I mean, I didn't get married particularly young when I was 27. My wife's four years behind me. She certainly equaled me in maturity at the time. But it seems like it's changing a little bit or has been changing, I think, pushing off more and more.

06:10 It's interesting. I know as crazy it is to say there are some people, I guess I'm a senior now, and I know two people tangentially. I know of them, but they're engaged already. And I'm like, yeah, this is kind of crazy. I thought that stuff didn't happen anymore, but apparently it's still going on. I mean, not for me, but, like, I know, like, a lot of people. I don't know. It's kind of interesting. I was talking to my sister and we're like, who's going to stay together, you know, after college, that kind of thing. So I guess, like, it's kind of exciting. So I guess we'll see if it's really changing. I haven't noticed it, like, too, too much, but I know, like, people are saying, like, they're waiting later to get a house and, like, have kids, like that kind of thing. But another one of my friends, she's dating someone seriously, and I think she's going to get married soon, so maybe some things don't change.

06:59 Yeah. It's getting harder, I think, too, somewhat, because things cost more. I mean, things have always been expensive. It was never easy. Wages were a lot lower back then, but it's gotten just crazy now. I mean, how expensive things are getting, starting out, people coming out of school with way too much debt, which is a. Like an anchor around your neck, you know, when you're trying to get started in life. So that's. I think that's become a little bit tougher than it used to be. I think college costs more than it used to cost, you know, relative to what people, you know, can make. So that's, you know, I think, more of a challenge today.

07:30 Oh, yeah, definitely. I guess I'm lucky because I'm an in stater. I'm, like, one of the five to nine plan people. So I think my parents, like, bought it when I was, like, eight or something, so I.

07:41 Did we. Yeah, yeah. We bought the plans for our kids. Of course, neither of them wanted to use it once we bought it, but I'm still glad we did because they would have used it. It was, you know, just so expensive now compared to what we paid for it, buying it when we were born.

07:55 I think all my siblings. I have. I have three other siblings, and I think. Yeah, me and my sister, my younger sister, like, we all use it. So I guess my mom was saying they changed the deal a little bit because it used to, I guess, for us, like, covered. It's, like, room and board and, like, something else, but now they. I think they took that part out because it was too good of a deal, but still works, I guess.

08:19 So what's your. Now, what's. What's your career goal with the degree you're pursuing, what you're trying to do?

08:26 So my career goal, it's kind of. It's kind of interesting. I. I work for Red Bull right now as, like, the students, the little, like, student representative, and there's talks of, like, maybe. I don't know. They talked to me if they wanted to do the grad program, which, like, would be really, really cool, but, like, I don't know if it's gonna happen. Like, that's kind of like a pipe dream thing. So either working for Red Bull, maybe in Santa Monica, or I got an offer to work at Pfizer, and one of the. In the position would be in Jupiter, Florida.

08:56 Oh, Jupiter. Yeah.

08:57 I was like, they got a big bicep. I'm a winter person. But, yeah. And here. Yeah. So being down there, I think it's, like, close to West Palm beach or something. So. Yeah, like, I guess, like, kind of all over place. Like. Like.

09:18 You'Re breaking up a little bit. I'm kind of losing you. Are you back?

09:25 Okay, let's see if that works. Um. Okay. Uh, sorry. Don't know what cut out exactly.

09:33 Um, you're saying you had an offer maybe possibly for Pfizer down in Jupiter?

09:38 Yeah, in Jupiter. Um, so I don't. I don't know. I'm still. It's still very early, but if anything, it's giving me an excuse to kind of, like, go easy on school, I guess. Um, but I do know that, like, regardless, I'm kind of cool doing whatever as long as I get to live overseas. Like, that's. That's, like, my main goal. And that's, like, the one thing that I've always wanted, like, since I was a kid. Like, I don't know. I've always wanted to live somewhere in Europe, like, in France. I study French, so I'd always. I want to do something like that. Like, I love the United States. I'm kind of, like, I'm ready for something else. Like, I. And I want that for the rest of my life, so whatever lets me do that.

10:18 Yeah. I wish my son had a better plan. He's in. My son's in Cambodia now. He's 25 or 26. He was very sick last year. He had cancer, went through chemo and all this stuff. And he's that kind of a short term, fatalistic look of things at the moment, but he's actually got a pretty good prognosis. But he's. He got well, doing really good. Had saved up some money, said I'd been to Cambodia before. He said, I'm going back. And he hit the road, and he's back in Cambodia now doing. I'm not sure what.

10:45 Yeah, I was gonna say, what's he doing? I need to start taking some.

10:47 He likes it over there. He taught English for a little while, and he didn't even know how to teach English, but he got himself a job teaching English for a couple months. So he probably realized he didn't know what he's doing, but that kept him there for a longer period of time. He was there, like, six months last time and about 26, $2700. Now. This time he's got a lot more, so I don't think I'll be seeing him for a year or so.

11:09 That's great.

11:13 We use WhatsApp and stay in touch. He's exactly 11 hours ahead of me. So I catch him in the morning, at night, beginning or end of his day. But yeah, traveling was great. I loved it. When I was your age, I never had an opportunity to live overseas, but I bummed all around, Norway, Sweden, Germany, Finland. I went to Red Cross for Costa Rica for about a month and a half, and I worked with the Red Cross down in Costa Rica, so that was kind of fun. I went to language school in Mexico for a while, so those are kind of neat things to do, but never had an opportunity to live over there.

11:48 Yeah. Like, how did you. How did you make that kind of stuff happen? Because, like, that. That sounds awesome. I'd love to do that.

11:55 Well, it helped that I. When I first went to school, I was. Became a paramedic in fireman, so I was able to make decent money on the side, just picking up shifts, filling in for the Martin County Ems, you know, working as a paramedic. I worked for Boca fire down there and Florida. So that was pretty decent money for being in college at the time. And I fortunately didn't need any. Didn't need any money for school, but I was making as I went. But I did think I was going to need a loan at the end. I got the loan, didn't need it, and I used that foolishly to go to Europe, but I paid it off pretty quick. But that's what I did with that. But it was a great trip. So that's cool. Yeah, it was fun.

12:33 I need to do that.

12:38 So where you at? I guess we'll talk about. The thing that usually pisses most people off is politics. It seems like a big difference to me, like, what I perceive among, like your generation and how things are viewed seems like just an area that's like kind of a gulf, you know, about the country, how they view their own country. The whole wokeness thing kind of going on is a big deal right now, which I think the pendulums kind of swung a little too far, at least for me anyway. Where do you see some of those things? And what's like, your political orientation?

13:14 Honestly, like, I do agree, like, with what you're saying. And I've become. I've become like, I have liberal views, like, I don't know, like the abortion itself, like pro choice, but I do agree that, like, I do feel like wokeness has become a problem. I feel like it's really hindering. I don't know, I feel like it negatively impacts freedom of speech. And I feel like we can really all benefit from freedom of speech. And I feel like that kind of wokeness, I hate to say, snowflake mentality, I feel like it has. I don't know, I feel like it's hindered academia, and I feel like it's hindered our ability to hear things that we don't like to hear. And I feel like. I don't know, it sounds about the same. Like, if I throw in, like, a fit and, like, I don't know, maybe getting triggered and walking away, I feel like that doesn't make it go away. And I feel like the wokeness thing, I actually agree with you. I feel like it's really become a problem where you have to watch so, so badly what you say. That's not to say you just go around and, like, saying all this crazy stuff, but, like, it's good to think twice. But I also feel like the fact that some people are scared to participate for fear that they're going to get completely bashed and canceled, I feel like that's. That's really, really detrimental to our democracy and, you know, like, the truth in academia. So I do. I agree. I feel like it's actually. I think it's a problem, like, people using Twitter and outrage culture, I think, sure, that maybe works for a little bit when you're fighting for people's attention, but I feel like in the grand scheme of things, I do feel like. I think it's actually really hurtful. It's really. I don't think it's good for our society.

14:44 There was a good book that was written by some two professors, actually, at uva that I read, and I can't think of their names, but it was called the coddling of the american mind.

14:52 Yeah.

14:52 Did you read that one or hear about it?

14:54 Um, I read the article in the Atlantic of the same title.

14:59 The book is great. It makes sense. It was really interesting.

15:04 No, I'd love to read the book just because, like, when I read the article, I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, I really. A lot of it, like, resonated with me. I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, this is actually, like, this is a problem. Like, the fact that, like, I remember the article talked about, like, people. I don't know, it's like, people with anxiety. You're not gonna, like, avoid elevators for, like, they're not gonna avoid elevators. Like, if you keep avoiding talking about these things, like, are they just supposed to go away because you don't like it? I don't feel like. And I feel like people saying things that piss you off. Like, maybe that's not such a bad thing. Like, I feel like that can be really intellectually stimulating if people can push past, like, the emotional. What is that? Is that ethos or pathos or something like that? Like, I don't know. I feel like now, like, the emotion dominates, like, oh, it offends me. So I'm not even, like, I don't know, something that I really don't like on college campuses these days, whereas these people have complete opposite ideas with me. I'm not even going to speak to them. I don't even want to hear them out. But in reality, I feel like if you do hear them out, that's how you kind of get what you want. That's how you can make change the way you want it. So I feel like, oh, we're not even going to talk to this people. We're going to cancel them. I feel like that's really not actually how you make things happen.

16:13 Yeah, that and the whole microaggression thing, I was trying to understand where you kind of almost inadvertently insult people without even thinking about it. And that just seems like bonkers. And he gets into that in the book, too, a little bit about, like, microaggressions that just kind of went off the rails, you know? And a lot of it's in academic, you know, circles where someone, you know, they can get on their soapbox and be, you know, righteous about something without actually having any skin in the game. You know, just gotten really, really, really crazy. We didn't have stuff like that then. I mean, I guess the only good thing about it is, you know, you want to be respectful of people, and you got all kinds of people out there, and certainly being respectful is great, but you don't have to accept everything either. Yeah, like, some of it's nuts.

16:56 Yeah, I know. I completely agree. It's like, it's kind of like, just, like, I don't know, it's kind of weird. Like, the best way I can think to phrase it is, like, I have the right to offend you. Like, I. Like, I don't know, I see it as, like, a freedom of speech thing. Like, I can say whatever I want to piss people off, but, like, I mean, that's not to say, like, no consequences, but I feel like, however, you know, horrible. Like, I don't know, I feel like there's a right to speak, and I feel like when you. I feel, like, cancel culture and, like, that sort of wokeness is creeping into, like, personal liberty, and I don't feel like silencing people. Oh, we're not giving them a platform. I don't feel like that's actually the way that it should be done. I don't know. And I, like, with the microaggressions, like, I want to learn. Like, I don't want to, like, offend. Like, I don't want to, like, make someone upset, but also, like. Yeah. Like, I don't know. At a certain point of the day, everything could be a microaggression to someone. Some kind of.

17:44 Yeah, you can't worry about it. Yeah. And the whole, like, the victim culture thing kind of falls into it, too. Like, I was watching, read some stupid article today about some famous actor had an affair with some young woman, and she was, like, talking about how she was so. Like, she was. She was like, she was a victim. She knew she had an affair with a married guy. The girl's in her twenties. I mean, you don't have to be 40 to know that's not a good idea. You know, but somehow she spun this story where, like, you know, he had all the power and I was just the victim. I'm like, oh, bullshit. You knew who you were dating, and you knew the guy was married. You knew who he was. It was just crazy. Yeah, that kind of stuff has gotten really, really nutty. And then I was watching, like, you know, I've never been a member of a political party. I've always been an independent. Tend to vote democrat most of the time. But that kind of stuff has just gotten so, like, most of my friends are, like, way right of me now. I mean, they think I'm a liberal. I think I'm kind of where I've always been, but I think their extremes are just kind of, you know, receded into their respective distant corners or something. Yeah, it's really crazy.

18:52 No, I feel that I was talking to my sister, and I was like, like, I am liberal leaning, but I was. We got. We kind of got into it. I was like, yo, I don't. I don't really want to be on their team anymore. You know, sometimes, like, these people who. I feel like we have the same ideas, I feel like they're not representing me well. Like, I'm embarrassed sometimes. I'm like, I don't want to align with the people who are going to get mad if I say, you know, like, one thing out of line or I'm kind of, like, I don't know. I felt, like, embarrassed almost. I was like, oh, my gosh, like, these people out here just getting offended by stuff. Like, those are people on my team. Like, I don't know, those are the people who I want on my team anymore. I guess I started from the left. Like, I mean, I was always, like, center left, I think, more because I just didn't really care. But I guess now I've become more centered, like, a little bit to the right. Like, I've certainly, like, have been moving over because I'm kind of. Yeah, this is ridiculous. Like, I feel like the democrats inability, like, they hold. I feel like they, I don't know, hold themselves on such a high horse and they don't even want to have a dialogue with the other side. Whereas, like, I don't know, maybe like, that's kind of the reason why things are like this, you know?

19:54 I feel like the choice is between toxically woke, crazy people on the left or science denying, election denying people on the right. That's, like, what I've got. And it just kind of sucks. I feel like a lot of the far left is, like, very critical of just even the essence of the country. The founding of, like, the whole place is evil. Like, you know, what is it, the 1619 project or whatever, very negative. Like, you were an inherently evil country because of slavery and all that stuff. And obviously those were terrible, terrible things. But I'm like, you know, have you looked around the world anywhere? I mean, two major bloodlettings in Europe in the last century. Pol Pot sent all of these millions of people out in the seventies to the countryside and said, it's the year zero. You know, I was going bonkers in the sixties, cutting chinese people down like cordwood. I mean, terrible things happen everywhere. This is just our series of terrible events. You know, I don't think it's unique. I don't think we're uniquely bad or anything. You know, because of.

20:48 Sorry. I was going to jump in on the note of politics. Would I actually be able to get you guys both to talk a little bit about your own personal political beliefs? If, in your own words, you could define your own political beliefs, that would be great. Sure. I guess for me, I am left, but I'm hesitant to stick the labels like a Democrat because I feel like the term has turned into something that I don't like. Like, I feel like the Democrats have become something that I don't. I don't like what they stand for, but I. I have left leaning views. So, like, when it comes to voting, like, that's how I'll vote. Just because, like, I don't know, my big thing is like, pro choice. I don't know, man. Like, it's not anything, like, I'm not really, like, crazy, like, political, but that's, that's like my main thing. That's my main issue. So, like, I'll vote on that. But, like, I guess I would say a hesitant Democrat is what I would be.

21:42 Yeah. For myself, I tend to vote Democrat. Don't love them. I don't like that they focus on all these social justice warrior issues constantly. I mean, those are issues to be addressed, but it's like, it's not the main thing for most people. You're waking up, you're thinking about health care, jobs, inflation, security, border, stuff like that. It's not about, I've got to vote first this or that to this particular role or whatever. That's fine to do those things. Those people shouldn't be blocked out. But it seems like that's all there is, is these issues. Actually, neither party really talks about the issues. They use these different social justice issues to go after each other. On the right, they're always talking about critical race theory, which I don't know if that was ever really widely taught. You think it was taught in all the schools was a big deal. They use that to go after the left. And, you know, the left has gotten pretty crazy, too. So I don't really feel like I have a home. I do tend to vote Democrat, though, because at least right now, I think if you vote one of them out, they will leave. The Republicans think there's two options. Now, I listen to Bill Murray said, they think they, either they win or they were cheated. That's the only two options for an election for them. So that, to me, is more dangerous than the wackiness of the left, which I don't really care for.

23:00 Yeah. And would you guys also be able to tell me about your first memory of politics or tell each other about your first memory of politics? I think, I think my first memory of politics, like, would be I went to school in Dubai and I remember they were talking. They're like, oh, my gosh, Barack Obama is like the new president, you know, of the United States of America. So that's, that's kind of my first one. And I didn't really know what to think. I was like eight at the time. Seven or eight at the time. I don't remember really my first political dialogue or anything like that. It would be like, boom, Barack Obama's face on PowerPoint. That's what I remember.

23:41 Well, this is going to really date me. This is to me my earliest memory of anything that I ever saw. But I was probably about four and a half, five years old, and I can remember watching the Kennedy funeral on tv. That's. I remember the horse drawn carriage thing. That's, like, my first thing now. I had no freaking clue what it was. I just knew it was something really bad. Probably didn't pay much attention to politics. I certainly didn't pay attention then. I just, like, my earliest memory. I don't know why I remember that, but probably 76, Carter coming out and running. And then, you know, I started following more, of course, with Reagan in the eighties and all, but my earliest memories would be following the 76 election.

24:33 Do you guys also maybe who the most influential person in your life has been and what they've taught you? Influential person in my life is definitely my dad. And I guess, like, what has he taught me? It's hard to pinpoint, like, one thing, I guess, like, more so that, like, maybe even, like, to an extreme, I'll admit, but, like, I just want to be like him. Like, I don't know, like, kind of, like, not going to go down without a fight, but, like, stand up for what I believe in kind of thing. And, like, you know, I need to be me. You know, kind of, like, do my thing, like, be authentic in myself and my beliefs and stuff. So I guess that's why, like, I'm excited to be here because I feel like that was, like, genuinely what I think, like, you know, like, no lies about it. So I guess, like, I. That'd be the main thing. Just, like, not ever giving up on myself. Like, I just, like, sounds cheesy to say, but, like, really, like, just following what I'm passionate about, like, to whatever end, like, just making those decisions that, like, I don't know, reinforce what I'm passionate about and, like, putting that first, like, putting my happiness first, I guess, would be a couple of things.

25:37 Now, I would probably say the same thing. I mean, your immediate family members, especially if you're lucky enough to come from a, you know, a stable family, your biggest influence, just the consistency they had and the support that they provided for me for, you know, kind of whatever direction I wanted to go in life. They didn't really. I think they were always very much into me going off to college, which it wasn't really my thing, until I was maybe 21, 22, where I really got interested. And before that, I just wanted to be a paramedic and fireman. That's what I did, but they were supportive, so now those would be my influences as well. Most important influences. I want to ask you a question about healthcare, since I've kind of worked in it a long time. What's your opinion of a single payer system? Expansion of Medicare, do you think that's a scary thing? Do you think it's a good thing or do you think any views on it at all? Have you ever thought about it?

26:34 Um, trying to think. My experience, I worked at a doctor's office when I was, like, 1617. And I remember my mom, because my mom is a doctor and she practices. And I remember she was saying that, like, therapy, we wouldn't take, um, we wouldn't take, like, blue cross blue shield, we wouldn't take, like, one, like the military insurance things. Um, but for Medicare, I think we did take Medicare. I don't. I would like to build my opinion on that. I don't have, like, the most, like, I. I don't know, I guess I like the idea of people not going bankrupt if they have cancer, I guess, is the kind of thing I feel like it's gotten really expensive. But I also recognize that if you have a national system, if I break my leg, it's going to take me three weeks to get in kind of thing. I think Medicare would be great with my limited knowledge, I will admit. But I also feel like the answer has got to be somewhere in the middle because I feel like the european system isn't fantastic either, waiting so long to get treatment. But I also feel like paying, like, so much money, you know, like, even just to get, like, insulin or something, for example, is crazy. But I also will admit I don't have the most, like, solid background on that.

27:45 Yeah, well, that's one of those things, you know, neither party, I mean, the Democrats have tried to tackle it a little bit. At least with, you know, Obamacare, whether you liked it or not, it was an honest attempt to try to expand healthcare. And it really did expand healthcare was really helpful. I remember watching Trump before that disaster, and he said, we're going to have terrific health care. He did nothing with health care. He would do things to damage the Affordable Care act, and he'd look at it and say, well, that's terrible. Less people are enrolling for it. What else can we do to restrict it? And let's criticize. So it's really crazy. It's so vested in all the various moneyed interests that it's really hard for it to ever change. I mean, I'd kind of like to see some kind of universal coverage. It doesn't have to look like Europe. It could be some combination of Medicare and what we do. But it seems like you still got a ton of people out there undercover or not covered. In fact, Uva was one of the worst offenders for putting liens on people's homes that were sick. They had that about a year ago. They had an article about that. Yeah, I think they've stopped putting liens on properties, I think. But that was pretty crazy.

28:52 Yeah. Oh, I believe that.

28:54 Yeah.

28:54 I just feel like the price of healthcare has gone. I mean, get my parents pay for that, but I'm very, very lucky in that. That sounds like. And that's not the case for everybody. I remember I got an x ray and it was like $450 or something ridiculous. I mean it wasn't even broken, you know, like, come on, I'm paying that much. Might as well be like freaking.

29:14 I get mine through my employer and my health care expense. Between what I pay, I put it, I put in about 6000 myself. My employer pays 21,000 on top of that. So that's 27,000 a year I'm paying for myself, my wife and my son that I had on my plan. That's crazy. And then when he got really sick, I mean the bills were just astronomical. But fortunately we had good coverage. But then I paid another $7,000 on top of that just for co pays and deductibles. And the care was awesome. I mean they were great. I mean we couldn't ask for a better outcome or a better process. But holy crap, there's no country in the world that spends all we spend on this stuff. And they have, they have health statistics that are better than ours. You know, in the general stuff.

29:56 Yeah, definitely. I know. I remember my mom was telling me the story of how one of her patients was, was a hairdresser and the other one worked like an audit. Like the, and the husband worked in auto body shop and their, and their kid got cancer and they like, and they went bankrupt. And it was like, it's like surreal because like that actually happens. And it's really, really sad that that has to be like that. I watch Breaking Bad where he has to cook meth to pay for his cancer treatment.

30:19 Yeah, yeah.

30:21 My healthcare knowledge, not such a good source, but.

30:28 So what was your opinion of the last, the last administration?

30:31 Oh, I just kind of. I don't know, I just kind of thought it was a nightmare. I was like, I don't know, this is kind of ridiculous. I thought Trump was kind of, kind of a laughing stock. It's pretty embarrassing. Some of my, like, my friends overseas were like, wow, like, that's actually your president. I was like, yeah, I remember I did a french exchange trip, and my vocabulary is so bad. I only knew how to say that he was orange and that he was mean, but, like, I guess I was still. I guess that's still, like, the reality. I don't know. I just kind of thought, you know, same as it always is. It's a lot of promises. But I also felt like, you know, he was a bully, and I felt like he was really, really sexist. And I felt like he made that okay for other people to be like that, too, because he was so open about it, whereas, like, I felt like before, people were, like, a little more ashamed about it, but I felt. Felt like with him, I know it kind of empowered people to be more openly racist and things like that.

31:21 It was crazy.

31:27 Oh, no, I was just gonna say, I think he puts. I don't remember the guy's name exactly, but there was some guy who had really strong white supremacist ties being in charge of the immigration policy or something, and I was like, oh, you know, that's not super great.

31:42 What do you think about the immigration policy?

31:43 I think it was fantastic. Didn't feel like it's fantastic.

31:48 And.

31:48 Yes. What were your thoughts on, what do.

31:52 You think about the immigration?

31:55 Oh, just like on the last.

31:57 Oh, I thought it was. I thought it was a disaster. I just thought he was terrible. Brought out the worst in people. And, you know, I remember Clinton, you know, had an affair with his intern, and they went after him for, you know, a year and huge investigation. All. I mean, that was a terrible personal frailty. Big screw up. But this guy, you know, he's paying off a prostitute while he's running for election. This is known at the time, he's running for election. No problem. Yeah, it was just crazy, you know, and the stuff that he says, you know, about women, when that tape came out, when he was on being interviewed by, I forget which. Which program he's on, but he's talking about grabbing women and, like, he got past all that. I was just absolutely floored that nothing. There was no consequence for any of that. And just, you know, politicians always kind of stretch the truth and maybe have a loose relationship with it, but he was just took. Made an olympic sport out of it. I mean, totally disconnected from worrying about what they said. It was really not about. What am I saying is truthful? Is it going to resonate with the people that listen to me? Are they going to think, you know, is it going to help move them in the right direction? That's all that really mattered. My wife and I were out doing the rag ride. It's a bicycle ride across Iowa. They have every year, huge event. And we were doing it, I think, in 2015 we did it. Maybe I did it with my son that year. I forget. Anyway, that's where I first saw the Trump bus going down a road out in the middle of Iowa. And at the end of one of the corners, because there's thousands of people on the ride, there was one of the Trump people and one first Trump supporters passing stuff out to seem like he was a madman. It just attracted crazy. But it's really nuts what's happened. All these people who correctly assessed his character have all caved. They're all supporting him. You know, Lindsey Graham, the guy from Texas, I forget what his name is. I'm just, just crazy. How many of them said terrible things? Not the usual stuff about your opponent, but just really deep things about the character of the person. And it's like a cult of personality now.

33:58 Oh, yeah, absolutely. Oh, my God. On the note of an administration that you both disagree with, have you, have either of you ever felt misunderstood by people with different beliefs than you? And if so, how so? I guess, like, misunderstood. The thing that I think of is, I feel like, and maybe, maybe with good reason. I feel like sometimes people think that, like, people who are left leaning or moderate, like myself, like, think we're all, like, snowflakes. I feel like, I guess I feel, like, more misunderstood on, like, like, a broader sense or, like, oh, you know, you believe in this, so you, you know, you must be offended by, like, Xyz and you must be, you know, offended by, like, all these other things. I feel like I feel more misunderstood, I guess, like, in that sense, as being, like, maybe a liberal college woman or something like that. I don't know. But I think, like, I guess I just wish more people, I guess, like, more moderate people kind of were like, yeah, this isn't okay. Like, this cancel culture isn't okay. And, like, this, like, very forceful. I don't want to say violent wokeness, but it kind of feels like that sometimes, you know, is not okay that we're not all the people who think that, like, this system is so evil and, you know, we're not all super pessimistic like that. Not all offended by everything.

35:20 Yeah, I've been surprised about your views because, I mean, I did expect that myself, because I think your generation kind of gets painted with that, you know, because all this stuff that's been going on on college campuses over the last couple years, I mean, I listened to a lot of kind of right wing people and left wings. I just find it interesting. I mean, I like Jon Stewart. I like his commentary. I like Robert Rice. But I'll also listen to Ben Shapiro. And I like Jordan Peterson. You know, they have very different takes a lot of times on the same things, and it's kind of interesting. So I can't say I've had been misunderstood. I've, you know, usually just expressed what I want to, and hopefully it goes over okay and can't worry about it too much. I mean, otherwise you'd never say anything. Worried about offending people all the time.

36:01 Yeah, I guess that's what I'm worried about. I mean, like, I don't know. Like, honestly, like, I feel like a lot of people, like, literally died so that we could have free speech. Like, I can go out and say, you know, like, screw all you guys, you know, and I'm not going to worry about, like, get my nose chopped off, which, like, happens to people. So I guess, like, yeah, no, in that sense, I wish there were, like, more people, and I wish there was a way for people, you know, the moderate college people, you know, because there are, like, I. There's like, that polarization. Like, even, you know, on grounds you have, like, that you have the far left and the far right. It's like, yeah, where's the moderate camp, you know, for, like, the younger, like, for us, you know, like, well, we're.

36:36 Not interesting enough is the problem. You know, crazy is attractive. You hear something crazy, like, it gets your attention, like, to watch in a car wreck or something. But if you're kind of in the middle insane. Well, that's too boring. You don't hear any politicians, you know, taking, like, the middle road ever anymore, you know, one direction or the other.

36:54 Yeah, definitely. It's just. Yeah, no, even my uncle's like, oh, you guys are snowflakes. I'm like, yo, not all of us together. I'm not like that. Like, I don't know. I like, I guess that's my thing. Like, I do like learning. I want to hear, like, I mean, doesn't mean I'm gonna share, you know, someone's views, but I want to hear, like, what do far right people think? Like, what do far left people think? I think maybe that's the anthropology student in me. But, like, I like tracking that thinking. I like knowing how someone is reflects how they see the world kind of thing. So I think that's very interesting. But the fact that, like, oh, I don't even want to talk to them. I don't even want to do this. But, like, how do you, you know, how are you going to make actual things happen? You know, presumably if you're, like, on some extremist side, you know, you're, you want things to happen. You want that change. But, like, I'm not even going to talk about. I'm like, I don't know. I think that's kind of stuck up to me. I don't really like that mentality.

37:53 Yeah, I think we've covered a lot of topics. I don't know if the moderator has any other questions for us.

38:00 Well, I was just going to ask, in these times when you've felt maybe misunderstood by people with different beliefs, how can you think of specific instances or how you've responded in those instances if something comes to mind?

38:19 Well, for me, I just, you know, if you're going to argue with somebody about a point, I just try to be respectful and calm in my discussion. I mean, if you start getting loud with somebody, you just go out. If they say something absolutely ridiculous that you think is totally asinine, just don't go there because you're never going to change anybody's mind by telling them they're an idiot. I just try to have a calm discussion is the best you can do. I mean, I have friends that are very, you know, to the right, but I still consider them friends. But, you know, we either talk about it calmly or for the most part, we ignore it and, you know, don't talk about it.

38:52 Yeah, I'm trying to think. Like, in, in my instance, it was, um, this is my uncle. Like, I don't know, like, oh, you guys are snowflakes. And I was like, he's, I don't know, it just wasn't worth challenging because, I don't know, we don't, side note, he's not really, like a huge member of our family. Like, we're not all super close to him. So, like, you know, it wasn't like my dad or my mom who was like, oh, you guys are all like this. You know, it's kind of somebody on the periphery. And I was just kind of like, ha ha ha. I think I just laughed like some fake ass laugh. Fake laugh. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't really challenge it because I felt like it wasn't going to change his mind. You know, no point in getting up there and, like, going on my soapbox. So that probably confirms, you know, what he thinks. So I was just laying low about it. Well, is there anything that you learned about each other today that surprised you?

39:50 I was pleased that she, that Carolyn is seems kind of in the middle to me. I could connect with a lot of her views, what she's saying. She was more centered and grounded than I was expecting, you know? And I think she's right about that assumption about her generation, you know, being painted with that, you know, snowflake wokeness paintbrush. And, you know, there's, like, every other generation, there's lots of people and lots of views.

40:19 Yeah. I guess, like, there are people who, like, want to listen, who actually, like, want to hear people out. And, like, I know it gives me hope that, like, this project is around that you. That, like, you did it and you wanted to talk to me and stuff. Like, I I don't know. Because we hope that, like, okay. Like, we can actually listen. Like, we can, like, you know, make something happen, like, reach a middle ground, and that they're, like, not everyone is on, you know, one team or the other. Not everyone's, you know, on the crazy side. So. So that's good.

40:43 Yeah.

40:48 In a kind of similar vein, were you who the other person, or did you experience the other person is who you expected them to be? I don't really know what I expected. I, like, I remember, like, being excited, I guess. Like, I'm very, very pleased. Like, I I was worried that I was going to get, like, totally grilled, like a. Like, a trivia thing.

41:11 Oh, my gosh.

41:11 You don't know this. Like, so I'm very, very pleasantly surprised that, like, oh. Like, this was actually, like, a really, really, like, great discussion. Like, I feel great about it. So I guess, like, that. That's really nice.

41:26 Yeah. And I kind of alluded to this before. You know, I was pleased that I think Carolyn's very centered and really grounded, and I think we had a reasonable discussion, and I think it was nice.

41:40 All right, well, before we wrap up, do you guys have anything else to say, any final questions to ask each other or curiosities?

41:55 Now, I would just, you know, wish you good luck in your studies and in your career endeavors. Hope things go well. I can tell you, and the time between your age and, like, 40 went really quick. Then I blinked my eyes again. I'm 63. It's like, I can't believe how quick life goes by once you start getting busy. It's amazing.

42:11 Okay. That's actually good to hear because I've been like, I'm worried. I'm like, oh, man, I'm gonna start working and my life's just gonna slow down.

42:17 So I'm like, oh, yeah, it's going to go on hyperspeed.

42:21 I guess that's a good thing then. I'd rather have it. I like that, you know, always something. Yeah. Okay. That does give me hope because I'm already just going to get, like, kind of boring once I, like, once I leave college. But, like, no, it does get better from college, so that's good to hear.

42:38 Oh, yeah. There's a lot more opportunities. A lot of different things to get into. Besides, I mean, college was great. I enjoyed college. It's kind of like I just treated. That was my job for a while to do that. But once I got out, there was a lot. You'll have a lot more fun.

42:50 Okay, good. That's what I was hoping for.