Charles Townsend and David Waddle

00:03 Howdy, welcome to storycorps. I Am David waddle and I am 67 years old. Today is November 5th of 2020. I'm in Amarillo, Texas, and I'm here with dr. Charles Bud Townsend and I have

00:27 I have the honor of knowing. Dr. Townsend over the years from the Bob Wells music festival, and we attended the national Cowboy Symposium together for probably 30 years down in Lubbock, Texas.

00:43 And here is dr. Townsend. Well, thank you very much. David. Charles are challenging. You could say doctor if you want or Professor or just but anyway, I'm a Doctor Charles Townsend. I'm in the place near Amarillo little college town and the name Canyon, Texas. Today is November 5th 2020 and I am 91 years old today.

01:18 Happy birthday. Thank you.

01:23 Should I begin talkin or do you cook your ask your first question? I think we heard you were born in Nocona, Texas and raised in the Red River Valley. Is that correct? I was born in Nocona, Texas right on Main Street to yeah, oh November 5th 1929 and live there till about 3, and then we moved on to one of my grandfathers branches, which is about 8 miles from Red River and that was the formative years of my life.

02:09 Dr. Townsend, what year did you start rodeoing and a what was that like, you know, this is Bob wheels for sale in the story goes but they only take a minute. That means it'll take a long time. But I've lived on that ranch and love the cowboy life and everything that went with it. And then we moved into Nocona when my father died. I was orphaned when I was 8 years old and that my mother had seven children at all and times were hard. Now you're talkin the height of the depression and so I win I did everything to try to help my mother with Monday. The main thing was if you provide for yourself you've helped a lot.

03:09 So they're in Nocona the boot capital of the world for they made it famous Nocona boots. It was a western town and we boys begin to ride Cavs and and I'm not Cavs but steers and cows later bulls and Broncs at the rodeos in forestburgh Ringo and Munster Germantown to the East and that was the turning point of my life everything emanated from that particular moment. We had a rodeo on Labor Day 1946 in Ringgold and my brother who is PhD a map he was at the University of Texas if where is my mother that I wrote these animals, so she said would you put a stop to it? So you said

04:09 You can't ride this weekend. So you they don't answer didn't show up and the kids act to me tease me. So get up there. You've been imitating the least amount. So I got up there and announced and must have done. Well, as I said when I went into the national rodeo Hall of Fame in Oklahoma City, I ducked water and I saw for the first time David that I could be more than the shoeshine boy. That's what I was not anything wrong with that. I made I had money when the other kids didn't but anyway that open the door to my life and I discovered them that I could do. Whatever I wanted to do it later on. I thought you needed to college degree and I went for different universities got four different College.

05:09 Freeze and then I even if I preach the gospel a little by Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and then I went from there do I thought well maybe a Dorian the Baylor then I went to the University of Wisconsin where I got my PhD in 1968. But in the meantime, I've done several things but it's like one of my professors at Wisconsin. I went to him before orals and I said skirting it is my major Professor. I don't believe I can pass the exams for that PhD. He said Charles he had that Harvard bro. He said Charles A man that can announce the rodeo can do anything. Well, you believe that's true enough I passed.

06:09 I guess he was right after I announced that first rodeo, then I got into academics. I got into writing. I did I could hardly write my name but seem like it all came to me and then I went I never rodeos for 62 years and all the United States from the State Fair of California and Sacramento at the State Fair North Carolina and Raleigh. And this was a great life and single a rodeo season until 1998 and I think it helped me to in other ways to announce rodeos. You can't go out and act like I academic man. Do I wash by this time an academic man?

07:09 Rodeo you have to use the language of the people and I think it helped me and I got up at Always Love. Bob will never forget during the Depression. We had an old Zenith radio and we run it on a battery and there's three things. We always have been here. We have to hear Franklin D Roosevelt's fireside chats. And secondly, we had to hear Bing Crosby in the Trap music hall and Bob when we heard him one day enough. I fell in love with his upbeat happy music and I never would give it up. My father told me but he said you watch this Bob with he's going to be very important someday. Well, I never gave up that idea where wherever I went to college, Wisconsin or wherever.

08:09 And I was sitting there one time and seminar in Wisconsin and they opened everything everything in life. Is it important not just politics or economics but the very things of life and I thought well as if you can write on anyting then why don't I write on Bob Wills so that brings me to the next subject. So I came back to Texas and was doing some research and I asked the people I wasn't they paying me to do it.

08:51 I said can I go over to I'm going over to four 6 Ranch to interview George Humphrey and he just for the next 50 years. And so I called his research people doing research on Bob with haven't they said he was our favorite. So I started the research and interviewed everybody. I could I find that we had an RV and it's spent more time and talk. So that's where you play greatest years Fort Worth wherever doing interviews. So I got a letter one day and University of Illinois, press that we're doing a series on American popular music. I think I ended up about 70 different volume one of which was mine. And so we want to publish your book. So of that led to the president,

09:51 A publication that book and then when Bob had his last session, he would have strokes Betty and Bob wife want me to come down because they wanted me to write the album. No, well, I went down the road the album. No. I didn't know that was a Grammy award for album notes. So I wrote them the University of the United Artist to publish the album album notes for the Grammy Award. I said, they said yes, and so we went to New York in March 2nd 1975 and I even won a Grammy award, just kind of accidental, you know, one thing led to another

10:48 So, is there anything else you want to know about that?

10:56 Well, I would like to come back to that then when you first met Bob Wills and the original members, but could we leave right now? Could we talk about how and when you first met Queen Mary Mary did you know that email is Queen Mary 1930. That's the year golden about the fact that she was two months younger than I and that's another page of my life. I know I knew when I started rodeoing that I needed some income in the winter because they didn't have rodeos then very much. So a friend of mine roof wrote the world's champion cowgirl Ranch next to us and she got me a job as a sales manager at Olsen Stelzer Boot and Saddlery, which is on Red River to

11:56 It's to the west of Nocona 28th Mile and they're pretty lady beautiful lady in my opinion the most beautiful woman physically and mentally that ever lived. Well, she was engaged to another fella so I met her and she wanted to go to a square dance. I could call Square dancers being a cowboy and that was the end of my freedom a kiss. Good night live to six months later our marriage a she was a wonderful wonderful lady and she died about four years ago of Alzheimer's and we we have three children two of them doctors. Dr. Merritt down since coming today for my birthday. He is a a physician in Phoenix.

12:56 And is associated with one of the large blood description you got into the insurance business, but that's kind of the story of Mary and my family.

13:16 That is that is great. I before we go back to Bob Wells. Could you explain to me what the meaning behind the phrase when you announce the rodeo said ladies and gentlemen, your applause will be his only reward. I wish I could tell you but the music Cowboys Pages entry fees of rodeo and it comes out and when we say the man I had ever made a terrific ride88 score I'd say this man may be headed for the pay window. He's winning now. Well, the next guy comes out about the second jumpy hits the ground not say ladies and gentlemen, the only reward this bill is going to get his your applause and

14:15 You use a lot of those things, you know, I guess that became rather trike.

14:22 And what what year did you first meet Bob Wills? What happened after I went down to the four sixes and did that interview? I begin to get letters from people said we hear you are doing research on Bob Wills. Would you write us an article so eroded article? That's my Mary. I've got a hundred Pages here and add some more to that. I'm not going to give it away. So what happened was I begin I could see then there was place for Bob Wills music and in American literature, so I began to go everywhere and do interviews and I interview Bob's brother Bob adapter stroke. I called a friend of mine that knew him real. Well I said John Dennis I said Don, can you get me in to see Bob Wills?

15:21 Do a blood he said he's really in bad shape that he would never let you in. So one evening beginning snow and I did worked all day on interviews in the area of Charleston. I said, I was in the Western sky won the most beautiful western stores selling boots and let you know all about that and I said, I guess I never will get to meet Bobby and I said those were his exact words. I said we'll bet he's very protective. He said he needs to see people you need to go. She said here's the phone call her see if you can go down there. I knew if I called and she turn.

16:21 Me down. That was it. So I should know Johnny Lee you called her. He called and she said she's heard about me. She said when conductor Clemson come in the morning, but we drove in the snow pulling an Airstream trailer all the way to Fort Worth. I didn't sleep a wink and we went out to to where they lived and I was afraid you know, you you get afraid when you get these chances that maybe your recorder won't work. So we took him to recorders two microphones my twins of Mary Jane and Buddy Health microphone over Bob. It look like NBC news or something and we got that interview and Betty. I didn't ask if I could do a book I intended to do it and so he was on his deathbed really he lived about 15.

17:22 About three years after that but his wife came and they had a signal, you know to get rid of you or do something. That was why I came in and she said she always call me. She's a Duck Tales and he wants you to leave the room. So I think trim stayed in there and they talk about 3 minutes. Bob was really great at recognizing the person for the spot.

17:55 She said you can go back in Bob said you can write the book. So from that moment on every holiday that I could use leave the University at West Texas A&M University where I taught 27 years in American history every holiday. We were there they never ever turned it down and I got all those many many interviews and Bob and I became much more than just a biographer and the person is riding on we became great friends when he died three years later. It was like, you know, losing your father because of a certain wisdom about him, but then they arranged interviews everywhere.

18:52 In the army with and World War II and whatever. I must admit that I'm quite jealous. I I never met Betty and and his daughter a rosetta and I I never met Bob and I first time I went to Bob Wills was in 1977 and I got to dance to some of the original Texas Playboys and you knew them now everyone Western swing music Bob was the king of Western swing music is now our official music of the State of Texas. It's been hell.

19:36 Me a little bit about the Leon McAuliffe Tommy Duncan the great vocalists Eldon shamblin a Strickland. That was the player. Is that correct?

19:50 Yes, he was available and he there was a great jazz pianist who played with Bessie Smith and Louis Armstrong and many of the father father father. He was great pianist, maybe the greatest of this day and that's where L Strickland patterned after him and I mailed out Strickland. He live down near Cleburne at a wonderful family. And then you said he helped you tremendously with the history and and this was a very warm person now,

20:34 Young a smoke. I just was playing when Bob move to Tulsa 1934. He was playing for a jazz band. You know, that was the age of the big bang, you know, like Benny Goodman Tommy Dorsey those people and so Bob wanted to Brimmer and he sent word and they can still meet he said well, I didn't think the kind of music they were playing that they needed a drummer. So he said I went over and sort much of admire Bob and his music that he stayed there until the van broke up in 1940 to see everybody went to the servicing.

21:23 And Tommy Duncan the great vocalists Jesse a Sherlock.

21:30 Yeah, I know. Tommy Duncan was without doubt the greatest singer Bob ever had and he grew up down your Waco in Whitney, Texas got a big lake down there and he was a great fan of giving it. All Jimmy Rogers and Jimmy Rogers, lived out here in panhandle at Hadley for a while and I interviewed some people in them. I said, what did he do? They said he drove around in an old strip down car with a little guitar singing. Jimmie Rodgers songs. Well, then when Bob hired him up his great Idol was Bing Crosby in and he became more of a pop singer. It would never been what you'd call a country singer. He love pop music and at San Antonio Rose was pop and Tommy there never was anybody.

22:30 He was a good friend of mine and it was a great always wanted to be a cowboy. And so he had a horse cold black horse quite a horse and he named him then after Bing Crosby and Bob in 1932 and he stayed until 1948. He was there longer than anyone except maybe Leon Rausch who came along as a singer after 1958 is what perhaps the greatest musician.

23:10 Bob ever had in his band technically, he was so good that Rolling Stone named him. The greatest guitarists of all time was the Texas monthly named him the greatest guitarist in Texas history The Rolling Stones that he's the greatest to that wasps, and you know that

23:36 Yeah, he played rhythm guitar you later wrote the arrangements after Bob see Bob went through a period where he had forced for five saxophone two or three clarinet 3 marvelous trumpet player. So he had the fiddle in the guitar that was part of the band. Did he have the horns that made it more modern or big band if he played in Dallas at the Baker hotel or the Adolphus then he be used mainly the horns because the people down there like big band swing if he went to Pawhuska, Oklahoma, he use the fiddles and the guitars which was

24:25 Bob Wills actually started out of Fort Worth with the light crust Doughboys. Is that correct? And no, it's not that started ride out here in West Texas at Turkey Texas. He grew up in Kosse, Texas and that's where they influence and I will be wrong. If I don't have one of the few things Bob asked me to put in the bear book. He said you give credit to the black people eat he use the term colored or negro. He said they influence me greatly so he grew up with them and learn their Rhythm and their beat and then the family when he was 8 years old, they moved to estaline which is between here and Childress then finally they moved down between

25:25 The rivers Bob, they were to two rivers that I was at that house before. They tore it down there by Buffalo flat and they were so little in their Farm laying there Bob. I think at about seven hundred they had seven hundred acres. They never owned it. They have they bought it but she's never paid for times were so hard and there is dad with play fiddles that ranch dance. Well, you know, you understand the second meaning kind of play the rhythm and everybody said that with a guitar know the guitar was a black man's instrument when Bob was Bob use the mandolin and he didn't use the guitar for some time and that's where and then Bob got him a little man of his own.

26:25 And he began to play Western swing here in Texas. Then I'm going to be when the depression got so bad. Then he the whole family move Fort Worth City Barbers are Barbara and Bob then barbered. I think it's on 3rd Street in Fort Worth and played house. Dances. What would call the house dance was a country or Ranch dance brought the town and then W Lee O'Daniel heard about him trying to mount didn't like them. But the so much mail came to the wbap. I do think I want to hide you and that was worth of the light crust Doughboys. And yes, it was Milton Brown part of that town.

27:24 Herman on speaker and Bob Wills and dinner later that they added a different instruments and when O'Daniel fired Bob Williams, then Bob went to Tommy Duncan cause he needs a singer now and a couple of a steel guitar player and a guitarist and replayed fiddle and they moved to Waco and and broadcast over Waco. And then of course, they move to Bible with buck the world turned on Cotton. He said the Cotton's going to be all picked here now by Tober we've got to move to Oklahoma. So we moved Oklahoma got on wky and then later.

28:20 In 1934. He went to wfk the oil and it was a 25000 watt station then so is W the 50000 Watts comes up here to later, but they were $25,000 and that's where he wrote San Antonio Rose and take me back to Tulsa and I'm faded love and some of the songs that made him famous is the really the four Great years were in the area of

29:01 Aptos then of course, he was so popular out in California that the E moved out there and began to make movies. He made a 19 movies one movie with a movie. Most beers were those B movies they made one and Miller the great broadway dancer was in it Glenn Ford Charlie Ruggles. And that was in a movie. That is the name of the name of the a movie go west young lady.

29:43 Remember Horace Greeley said Go West Young Man. Will they go west young lady and it was supposed to really kind of feature and Miller, you know, you know Adam Miller. She's if this day you'll see her in certain movies. And anyway, that was kind of the story of a Bob Wills. I wish you could have known Bob Wills not as a musician, but it's a friend like he was an 80 Bob had someone with drinking problems that is many musicians did back. Then there was not like it's thank God. They didn't have all the drugs they have today because musicians, you know, they trying it and we know the Bob that if problems but he was such.

30:43 I'm generous man. His secretary told me that on certain days people be lined up outside the Bob to get money. You think it was a Salvation Army. He had a big heart. He grew up hard knew what hard times were and such a wonderful human being and a great judge of character and some of these men told me Frankie mcwhirter told me one time. He said Bob was my counselor. He said if I was having trouble with my wife and the other boys or whatever, I'd go to Bob and Bob would talk to me but never said talk directly to the subject. He talked around it and he said when he finished I was all he was my

31:43 Therapist

31:47 The original San Antonio Rose was released in 1938 as an instrumental. Is that correct your background on that Bob?

32:00 What name is living between the rivers had to pick cotton and all they knew was going to run the sensitivity of his fingers. So he want to be a barber in which Barber barber school in Amarillo, Texas. Then he moved to Roy New Mexico and the it was an Indian and Mexican culture and they couldn't dance to Bob's Music. So Bob said, will you dance the way you want to and I'll write some music to go with it. So he eat it came up with the song....... They just vanished and sew in 1938 Arts Center Valley wanted one more fiddle tune in a recording session. Bob said we got 7 we got to get one more. They said he said let's rearrange Spanish two step and that was the so they did the instrumental.

32:59 Spanish to English Bob said that I don't know and so Saturday name to San Antone Rose then to Irving Berlin have a great publishing company in New York City if it's still there when I interviewed them if it's on the Avenue of the Americas and so Irving Berlin's that that's most beautiful Melody. I want to publish it. So Bob had to write a lyrics for it.

33:36 Irving Berlin published it and it's sold 3 million copies in 1 year and this is Bob said that that song and then Bing Crosby recorded it as a ballad Bob. You said it it take Venus offer hamburgers and put us on stage. So San Antonio early 1940s, it had sold 4 million copies and that made it the top song. That would be like a platinum record by today's standards. Yeah. They called him the other big song the year that that that was published 1940.

34:24 Was Frank Sinatra's All or Nothing At All All or Nothing, but anyway, and then of course, of course became part of the big big swinger with they often call it country or country and western. It was a it was the play big band swing with strings and then of course, he added his own horns, but that's what western swing why it was for Bob Wills with fiddles and guitars to play big band Big songs and dances would be a Glenn Miller's in the mood which they still play for the day of the West.

35:24 Is the Western sky was inducted into the Western swing Hall of Fame with the Cowtown Society of Western swing last year and the guitarist my main instrument. I do a lot of one-man shows and you almost need to be a jazz musician to play Bob Wills. The Western swing music is is so much more than less than 3 chord country. You know who use the big dick Dixieland Jazz Louis Armstrong funeral

36:11 The format for the structure of the actual music for Dixieland Jazz is you start with a melody.

36:23 And then you use either a vocal or a jazz solo.

36:28 For a few bars, then you come back to the melody. Then you go back to another Jazz solo and the beat and the Rhythm Grace dick. He told me one time I said Bob they call your music country music.

36:48 Which tell me which city. Are you closest to musically? Are you closest to the country music of Nashville, or are you closer to the Jazz of New Orleans? He's in New Orleans.

37:14 I understand that in the 1950s that his popularity had the climbing course it made a great Resurgence when I heard of Bob and then Waylon and Willie they did the well, once you're down in Texas Bob Wills Is Still The King and after all those years, I understand that Hank Williams Senior and a fellow by the name of Elvis Presley. We're the ones that contributed to the decline in the popularity of Bob Wills music not only contributed to Bob's Big Band swing.

37:58 It's never been big again because you see rock and roll is for the heater. It's not for dancing. They might be a few dancing big band swing and Western swing was first last and always dance music go in television came, the people went to the dances stayed home and watched whatever they watched and the young people like rock and roll. So Bob they ask Bob one time in 1958. They said what do you think about rock and roll most most musicians of the old age? Do they really hated rock and roll Bob says, it's wonderful. He said I've been playing it since 1928.

38:58 Things going so I put in my book that Bob Wills was an early influence rock and roll. Well a guy from Nashville ribbed manuscript said don't publish it if he leaves that in there about rock and roll it's not so so they wrote me said you want to I said you going to publish it. You're going to leave it in there. Well this same guy in about three months wrote me a letter instead DuckTales, and I'm sorry for what I said. He said I discovered in the Philadelphia Inquirer.

39:35 In Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

39:39 That it was an ad in there said come in here Bill Haley.

39:45 And His Four Aces Western swing, he was identifying himself at that's the influence of Bob then they were so what really made me feel good is in 1998 Bob Wills.

40:04 Who are The Three Billy Joel went in Paul McCartney within four of them? Bob was one went into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. So if you go to Cleveland be sure and see Bob statue there in the rock and roll rock. So this Vindicated what I had said that rock and roll recognized his great influence.

40:35 Dr. Townsend, what would you do?

40:42 Would you both in your Rodeo announcing career and your career as a professor in an educator? Would you have maybe a couple of amusing stories that along the way from both of those parts of your life from Rodeo cost? They were so many in 52 years, but the thing I like most about teaching at West Texas A&M. I have taught it Wisconsin on the great universities. I taught at Texas Tech one year. I told him I didn't Simmons a couple of years, but the place that I love the most for teaching right here in the canyon. I'm a block-and-a-half from West Texas A&M University. I love the students.

41:43 What you saw was what you got, they weren't phony pseudo-intellectuals or anything like that. They were just what you saw and I enjoyed of the students at West Texas A&M University so much. I love those Wisconsin to I was tripping on the history of rodeo there and if that was but in Romeo experiences, I got to meet so many of the of the old Cowboys Stars X River you remember him text friend of mine. I got to meet Gene Autry when I went to the National Cowboy Hall of Fame on all of us who made the album where I won the Grammy all of us received a Wrangler award. It is a bronze of Charles Russell's

42:43 My charger and the man presenting the US the trophies was Gene Autry. Well, they are contacted me and said we've heard you announce rodeos. Jean will introduce you and give you your trophy. Then we want you to introduce the Playboys all the names you called including Johnny another's Kikkoman others with their so I introduced them and they were to play a 30-minute concert.

43:15 So jeans today, let's go back here. So Gene Autry, you know people wait 4 weeks before he died. He was the richest man in Hollywood. It want to be with Gene Autry 30 minutes Jean and I went to the back and Jeanne and I talked for 30 minutes. What kind of a price would you put and you know, what all he talked about Bob Wills is a with me and so I wouldn't take anything for that and he was David. He was a down-to-earth as you or anyone and of course, I became friends with Smiley Burnette Andy Devine out of the van had a big guy TV Foster Preston.

44:15 Dr. Townsend, we're just we're about out of time on this session. And I must say that it's just an honor to have known you over the years and to be able to share this experience with you and with story course. I think you're just a precious Jewel.

44:39 Well, I've had it I've had a great life and I will repeat this that when I announced that first rodeo just a little old rodeo in Ringgold, Texas on Labor Day 1946 sales only 16.

44:58 That opened what else we've talked about that open the Bob Wills and writings that opened academics master's degrees bhd's and Grammy Awards everything started back that day on Labor Day 1946 Sunbelt told me that it was a lot more profitable and enjoyable to be shooting the bull then to be riding the bull. I learned pretty pretty quickly that I'm not cut out to be a bronc Rider bull rider by Bob Goff. It might have been one jump, but but if it wasn't rough events or whatever.

45:58 But the fact that I announce that Rodeo will change my life will dr. Townsend. It's just been a great joy for me to be part of your birthday. Thank you for sharing with us today you innocent thank you a story chords for this opportunity and I would just yes sir. We're out of time but the time flies when you're having fun time changes everything yet. There was a time when I saw the okay David, thank you for getting me in on this time. I'm day people will hear it and the Library of Congress and in what an age that was a great time. Thank you so much. Thank you.