Charlie Barlow and Beverly Pannell

[00:09] BEVERLY PURNELL: Hi. My name is Beverly Purnell and I am 59 years old. Today is Tuesday, May 31, 2022. I am here at the story Corps of Atlanta, and my interview partner is Charlie Frank Barlow Sr. And he is my cousin.

[00:32] CHARLIE FRANK BARLOW SR.: My name is Charlie Frank Barlow Sr. I am 72 years old. Today is Tuesday, May 31, 2022. We are at Story Corps Atlanta, and my interviewer is my cousin, Beverly Barlow Purnell, and she is my cousin.

[00:55] BEVERLY PURNELL: Okay, first of all, I would like to say thank you, Charlie, for allowing us to hear your story and to hear about your feelings and your thoughts and ideas. And so with this precious time, I want to go ahead and get started with the first question, and I like this one, this particular one, in that because I'm curious, and in that I find it to be very compelling and essential in being able to navigate life and with all that it may entail. So would you mind, please, telling us a little bit about how you would describe yourself? Give us some information about your personal self description, or how would you describe yourself as a child? Were you happy? What were some of your best memories or your worst?

[01:46] CHARLIE FRANK BARLOW SR.: As I described myself as a child, I was a scrawny little kid. I was short for my age. I was lightweight, and I wanted to be tall, and I wanted to have some weight on me, and that was kind of an insecurity. And it's interesting because when I graduated from high school, I was about five'six. I weighed 125 pounds going to college. But it's interesting how I started to grow. I didn't start to grow until after I graduated from high school. But as a child, I was a happy child. I was not happy during the spring and the fall of the year, because that's when we had to stay out of school and work on the farm. And when you went to school, the teacher would ask why you were absent the day before. And if you said you were sick, somebody would yell out, no, you were picking cotton. And that was embarrassing as a kid. And so my school days. But I loved school. I loved. Education was a passion to me. I grew up in a christian family, and I loved going to church. I loved Sunday school most of anything. And I stayed at a lot of my relatives homes. And I think about that now. I don't know. I think part of the reason was that they would ask my mom if I could go home with them, because I think I was a very disciplined child, and I was very kind child, and I think they liked having me around. And so a lot of. Some were distant relatives, some were nothing relatives at all. But they would let me go and stay with them. I stayed with an aunt, I think, for like five years. It was almost like she kidnapped me. But because I was in a large family, it was a burden off the family because, you know, that's one less mouth to feed. When I was small, as I grew up into high school, elementary and high school, I kind of felt kind of left out, in a sense, because I didn't live in the city, I lived in the country. And people looked down at people in the country country. But I had two guys that kind of adopted me as their friend. And they were very popular, and they would always encourage me. They encouraged me to get in the band. And I'm not a music person, but I got in. I ended up becoming the band captain of the band. They talked me into getting into sports. I'm not a sports person, in basketball. But they even talked me into going to Morris Brown College. I mean, they were. And those two guys were great inspiration because they gave me the confidence that I was somebody and that I could be somebody. The worst, probably the two most positive things in my life were going to college, being able to go to college, and actually to finish college in four years. The worst two things in my life was losing my. My brother. My oldest brother. I loved him so much. And it took me a long time to get over that. My brother, bubba. It just took me a long time. I matter of fact, I don't. I think I said I would never go to another funeral again. And it was probably like five years before I went to another funeral because I just. It was so much of a hurt.

[05:22] BEVERLY PURNELL: Okay, well, thank you for sharing that. And when I hear you speak, I can hear some. Some threads of experiences that were shared, you know, with my daddy and what I thought I observed with others. And so with that, I don't know if it's correct or not, but I think I'm hearing a little. A sense of loss or pain in your. In your brother passing away. And do you mind sharing that with us? And as well as with your grandson, Kaden? We've recently lost him. And so with the weaving of what happened in the past, but yet still. It can still be so fresh now and then with the recent loss within the family. Do you mind sharing with us how you feel about that?

[06:12] CHARLIE FRANK BARLOW SR.: Well, it's interesting how you tied those two together, because they are. There's a connection between those two. My brother, I just idolized him. He was about four years older than me, and I just cherished him. And I was angry with God for taking my brother. I mean, I was angry with God. I couldn't believe God would allow that to happen. He was killed in a car accident. And the interesting thing was, when my grandson Kaden was murdered last year, on July 3, God said to me, you got through this with your brother. You can get through this with Kaden. That was what he spoke to me. And that really helped to know that I got through that so I could get through. And believe me, there is no comparison of hurt in terms of losing anybody else in the family, like losing a child. You know, I've lost my mother, my father, my sister, my brother, but there was no feeling like losing a child. It just. It hurts so much till your heart just ache and. But I was able to get through it. But I'm still not completely through it, because even today, I was thinking about him, thinking about Kaido. So it's. You know, I pray to God to send the comforter to help me to get through it, because I have to help other people to get through it. As a pastor and a minister, I have to help other people. So I ask God to equip me so that I can help other people get through it. So I know whatever I'm going through, I have to depend on God to get me through, because he promised to send a comforter. He promised to do that, and I know that he will because he sent the comforter to get me through with my brother, Bubba.

[08:14] BEVERLY PURNELL: Okay, thank you. And so. And when I hear you expressing those feelings or thoughts, my mind goes back to your mama and your daddy. And with that, do you mind telling us a little about them and what may be your experiences or maybe something they may have said to you or demonstrated for you that would help you through this difficult process of losing?

[08:41] CHARLIE FRANK BARLOW SR.: Well, I've been very fortunate. I had some great mentors in my life, some in the family, some in the church, some in the community. And your daddy was one of my great mentors because he was like the big, big brother in the family. He was the oldest male in the family. He was. And he had all the stories. He knew everything that happened in the past. So we always like to sit down and listen to him, Robert, particularly at family unions, because he knew a lot of stuff that we never experienced in life. And it's so important to have people that you can lean on to help you to get through different things, because nobody can get through this stuff alone. But you got to have somebody that you trust, because the other thing is you got to be able to trust the person, because when you get deep down and personal, you don't want everybody to know how you really feel, but you need to be able to talk to somebody that, you know, you can just open up and just lay it out and they understand, and they're going to be confidential with it, but they help you to get through it. And your dad was always a very strong person, and because of his strength, he was another hard worker. I mean, I went through, he went through the same things that I went through in terms of the farming. And his saving grace was that he was an awesome football player. And so he was a champion. He was like David and Goliath and guys, you know, they talk about how he used to drag people across the goal line. And so I was always so proud of him and just knew I could always lean on him and talk to him about anything.

[10:33] BEVERLY PURNELL: Okay. And so with that, am I hearing you saying how important it is that you've had persons that you can lean on and trust? Oh, that word, trust, is so awesome. Then do you mind telling us about your beautiful wife, Shirley, and your marriage? Can we bring her into the conversation? Because. Sure. I've always looked at her as someone who carried herself very gracefully and as a queen. And so if you could share some thoughts, ideas, or how you all met or anything you wish to share, please.

[11:08] CHARLIE FRANK BARLOW SR.: Yeah. I met my wife Shirley, through a friend, through my cousin, my friend and cousin Marvin, because she lived on the same street he lived in. And I had gone through a breakup with my girlfriend back home. And so I was looking, and he knew I was looking, and he told me, man, you know, I met this girl. If I didn't already have one, she'd be mine. You need to meet her. And when I met her, the lights went on, and we've been a partner. We just celebrated our 50th year, married our golden anniversary. And people ask me, how do you do that? Not easy, because I don't think I'm the easiest person to get along with from her perspective, because I'm a, I'm very confident, and I'm very. I think she looks at that as being stubborn because I want to do things my way, but I'm very flexible. We've had the give and take through the years, but she's been a great partner. When I met her, she was in 11th grade, I was a freshman in college, and I gave her an engagement ring for her graduation from high school. And she wanted to get married immediately. I said, no, I'm not going to marry you until I can take care of you. Because I think I was a junior in college, and I said, I'm not marrying you until I could take care of you. And after I graduated, she wanted to get married. I said, no, I'm not going to marry you until I got a good job, and I can take care of you. But then I got drafted into the military, and somebody said, man, she may not be here when you come back. And so I decided, okay, let me go ahead on. And I called, and I said, hey, let's go ahead on and do it. Set a date, and we'll go ahead and do it. So, April 29, 1972, we got married, and I knew she was the woman that I wanted to have my children. I just knew that I said, this is the woman I want to have my children. And it turned out quite well. We have four beautiful children. Two are by birth and one by adoption. But we have a great family and seven grandchildren, and the in laws are all a part of the family. It's just a great feeling, and we all fit together like, you know, like relatives. We just. It's just a good melting pot. And I think part of that has to do with. We're all christians. We're all very, can I say, devoted to Christ. That's our foundation, and that's a help when you're equally yoked. And so she has been the one. When I strayed away from the church and started going crazy, she was the anchor. She's never strayed it away. So she was the anchor that brought me back to the center.

[14:25] BEVERLY PURNELL: Okay. Okay. I just love hearing you speak lovingly of her. I can remember her getting out the car down at Helen's house, and she would walk up and go through the screen door, and she would just walk. So, I don't know, just so gracefully. And Rhonda and I would just say, oh, she's so pretty. And we just, like, just sitting there looking at her. So with that being said, it does appear, for my, looking on the outside, that she did sort of, like, melt into the family. And so with that, then, what traditions now, along with her and continuing with your current family, what traditions were passed down from Aunt Helen or some other relatives that have gone on that may have influenced your interactions today and also impact some of the same behaviors or annual events or community activities you may participate in?

[15:19] CHARLIE FRANK BARLOW SR.: Well, we are very fortunate in that the Barlow family has been having reunions, for this will be our 81st consecutive reunion, and that has been foundational. And your uncle Frank, I mean, not your uncle Frank. My uncle Frank, your grandfather. And it's going back to Shirley. If she told him that I was acting up when I would go down, he'd tell me, I need to get my act together. My family accepted her almost like a sister. They loved her. All of them loved her. Everybody loved her. So if I did anything wrong to her, you know, I had to report on that to them. I mean, they were very strict. But my foundation with the family union, your father, Robert Washington, the griot. Cause he could tell us all about the first reunion and everything from past. And he always. I always. I'm the family historian, and I got a lot of that history from him because he knew how everybody was connected. And we loved at the family unions to hear him tell stories. So we would sit around the fire roasting a pig all night long, and he would have story after story after story. It was something to look forward to, going to the family union by having a family union for that long. It's not only my family, but you got multiple families that are connected across that. That attend the family union. Have been attending the family union. My father was. My father and your grandfather were two of the founders as brothers. I have an interesting other piece of my family, in that my mother married my father. Your grandmother married my uncle. So they married two brothers. So we're triple double connected in that sense, in that the Carr family and the Barlow family connection, with both of them being married. And your grandmother and Annie, she was like a mother. And all of our aunts were like extra mothers to us, because they treated us like we were their children. And so you can imagine that it didn't matter whose child it is. They treated that child as if it were their own child. That mothering instinct and that fathering instinct was throughout our family. And that has always been something that people have sit back and admire at the Barlow family, how we. We stick together. You know, we take care of each other. And even my family, we stick together. We take care of each other. You know, everybody looks out for everybody else. And even when there's division, even when there's conflict, you know, we always come back together eventually. And all families have conflicts. It's just that when the conflicts go on and on and on and on and on, which become destructive. But even if you go back in the biblical days, from the very beginning, you know, Cain and Abel. So it's not unusual for family to have conflict, but you got to know how to bridge that gap and come back together.

[18:55] BEVERLY PURNELL: Okay. And it's interesting that I hear you say that in the ebb and flow of family relationships, and I really appreciate that, because when Frank died, your uncle and I think you're named after him, right?

[19:09] CHARLIE FRANK BARLOW SR.: Mm hmm.

[19:09] BEVERLY PURNELL: Yeah, he died. It's only been recently, really, the past couple of months, that I was able to really get to a point where I grieve for him. And so when I hear you speak lovingly of him and how the interactions are revered, even as well as my daddy, I appreciate that. And so with that, would you please share with us, has your life been different from how you may have imagined when you were growing up?

[19:44] CHARLIE FRANK BARLOW SR.: My life has been glowing, as a matter of fact. It's scary when I look at what I have become from where I was, as I mentioned earlier, the being a cotton picker, a sharecropper, was a disgrace. At least we felt like it was a disgrace. But now I realize I thought of something a couple of weeks ago, cotton was my king. And the reason I say that is that thought came to mind. And then I thought it through. You know, here's something that is looked upon as lowly. I mean, I'm talking about lowly. Lowly. But yet, even in picking cotton, I found a way to make it a fun game, because one of our cousins, Thelma, used to pick more cotton than anybody. And I always wondered, how did she do that? I hear that story, and I finally figured it out, what she did, how she actually do that, because I kind of modeled myself after her, because, you know, if she picked a hundred, I wanted to pick 50. If she picked 200, I wanted to pick 100, she picked 300, I wanted to do 200. And I thought about that. Here we were able to turn something that can be very negative and perceived to be very negative into positive. And that has carried through in my life and helped me to be successful, because I was extremely successful in sales. I mean, I was, in one year, I was 1000% a plan. And sometimes I wonder where all this came from is because of that competitiveness, and because no matter how bad things are, I always find a way to turn it positive, and I turn the. The negative thing into a positive. And I figured out why Thelma picked more cotton than anybody else, because Thelma was the first one in the field while the cotton was wet, while everybody else is sitting back waiting for the cotton to dry off, using it as an excuse, because we didn't want to get out there in the first place. But Thelma was out there picking. And then when everybody else quit on time, Thelma was still picking until they weighed up all the cotton, and so she's got extra cotton. And I. That same principle applies to me. When I was working with Xerox Corporation, you know, if somebody was smarter than me, I work twice as hard. If, you know, if I had to get up at 05:00 in the morning to beat you, I'd do that. If I had to stay late, I'd do that to beat you. Because where I was lacking in skills, I made up in determination and hours of work. I had a friend of mine used to try to get me to go having fun on a Sunday evening. And I said, no, man, I got proposals to get ready for tomorrow. He said, man, you're going to be successful because you really work at it. The other thing is, my family is a hard working family. We're known for being hard working from the beginning. I mean, we never had a problem finding a job. My dad used to always say, boy, you may not have no money, you may not have no land, but you got your rep, your reputation. He said, you protect that reputation because that'll take you a long way. And my reputation has done that. People trust me. People believe in me. Because if I say something, you know, I tell people, you got to understand, when I say something, I mean, and even if I fail, it doesn't matter. I'm gonna do, you know, I've given him my best. I said, I'm gonna go. I'll go after Moby Dick with the tartar sauce. Cause that's how I feel about things. When I go after something, I go after with all the gusto, and I take accountability for it. But I give God all the credit. When, when it's successful, I give him all the glory, because I know I ain't smart enough, I ain't big enough and bad enough to do it, but God can.

[23:34] BEVERLY PURNELL: Thank you. Thank you, Charlie. And I think this is such a divine moment, because what I hear, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, what I'm hearing is that you're taking everyday life and what someone else may be considered as being lonely or not lonely or not good enough, and seeing the beauty in it and so, and also being able to intertwine it into your own personal being, your work ethic. It helps you to be able to have a perspective that helps you achieve in life. Like you, I think I was hearing, like, youre your work ethic or your ideas about work following through, and especially with that cotton. Because, like, before daddy died, I asked him would he, because he would have stories about that some happy, some sad, because he may have missed school, like we were saying, you know, in order to do it. But then again, there were some benefits in working. But before he died, I asked him, could he help me plant cotton? And he promised he would. And so I just think it's a beautiful plant. And now you've given me a gift to see how its beauty can impact someone's life. Because I see you as having a beautiful life. And with that, I have two more questions I would like to ask. And that is, how would you like to be remembered? But then, first, if there was anything that you wanted to. To share for those that are coming behind us, to help them to persevere or to be able to withstand any challenges or hardships. Or also for them to be able to sustain the joy in which they may find that comes across. Because sometimes we may not know how to even accept happiness. So, is there something you might. Can share with us that you've learned? That if you. That you would like to pass on something of value? And then also, how would you like to be remembered? Cause you are a beautiful man.

[25:44] CHARLIE FRANK BARLOW SR.: Okay, let me deal with the first one. On what is the foundation for success? And something I've come to realize in my elderly state of life is that as I look back over my life, I realize how much my challenges in life benefited me. See, what I realized is that because I grew up the hard way, I'm stronger. And I coined a phrase, I'm strong because I struggle. I don't struggle because I'm strong. I'm strong because I struggle. I don't struggle because I'm strong. And I realize because. And keep in mind, in the springtime, we went to school every other day because we were planning. And in the fall, we went to school every other day because we were harvesting. Now, you got to imagine, you know, going to school in the springtime, when school is starting. Not springtime in the fall when school is starting. It can really set you behind. I mean, when I graduated from high school, I was reading at a 10th grade level. It wasn't because I wasn't smart. A lot of it had to do was, you know, the days I missed. I went to school every other day, and no telling how many days I actually missed out of school during the fall. So you're trying to catch. You're constantly trying to catch up. So imagine going from going to school every other day to going to school every day. So when I went to college and I'm on my own, I was disciplined because I wanted it bad. I came in to Morris Brown on probation because I was reading at a 10th grade level. They said, in order for you to stay here, you got to learn to read at college level. And so you got to take this reading course, and you have to have a C average. I also developed the sense that ask for help, you know, I was failing my first semester, I was failing. I had to take economics. And I didn't know nothing about no economics coming from the country. And I had a very challenging, strong department chair that taught economics. And he's been known to fail a whole class. I mean, that's how bad he was. And I went to him, I said, mister Burnett, I don't understand this. And I said, I gotta have a c average in order to be able to stay here at Morris Brown. I need help. And so he gave me a book assignment, and I read it. I had a. I could. That didn't make no sense to me, but I said, I'm gonna do the best I can at it. You know, if I fail, I'm gonna fail trying. And so I wrote that paper up and I gave it to him, and he gave me a c. Now, he was one that didn't, you know, if you weren't trying, he would fail you. You, I mean, if you played with him. But he. We became very good friends. And after I graduated, I went back to help him. When I got my job at Xerox, I went back to help the school a lot. So my point is, you got to be willing to ask people for help. Don't go in a corner and hide. And I will always ask. I mean, it's not always somebody older and better. I listen to a child to get some input. And what was the other question? Oh, and that's, how do I want to be remembered?

[29:21] BEVERLY PURNELL: How would you want to be remembered?

[29:23] CHARLIE FRANK BARLOW SR.: I want people to remember me as a person who was a father, who was a husband, who was a pastor, a minister, who was a businessman, who really cared about people and everything that he did. He was always concerned about people, that he believed in God. I mean, he really believed in God. I mean, he operated like he, you know, he really believed in God. We have this project down in Jackson called the Henderson School project, where we organized a group to go out and purchase the old school that I went to, Henderson High and elementary. That was built in 1955 after the Brown versus board of education. It's been sitting idle since 2010. And God gave me a vision for that. You know, I thought about Nehemiah going back to the community and helping. I said, I'm going to go back and help. And I told the people when we got started, I said, you know, God told me to do something that will fail unless he step in. Well, guess what? We fail. We didn't raise the money that we were supposed to get it on time. But guess what? God stepped in. And now we own the property. We own 20 acres of land with a high school, elementary school, a gym, athletic fields. We own it because God did it. What I couldn't do. See, the thing about it is, sometimes we think that we can do anything. Well, I think I can do anything, but I can't do it without God. Okay? I know. I pray the Jabez prayer every day. Oh, Lord, bless me indeed. Enlarge my territory for your glory. Keep your hand upon me and keep me from evil. And I have a Jabez calendar that I read something from it every day. And he may say something to me. I'm going to send somebody your way that I want you to help, okay? Or if you knew what your enemy was trying to do to overthrow you, what would you do next? So, you know, then I'd find out something. Somebody's doing something and figure out a way to beat them at the game. So, I mean, I'm one of those people who. I believe that God talks to me all the time. Somebody asked me, well, well, how do you know God is talking to you? He may say it in a song. He may say it with somebody talking to me. He may say it in the scripture. He may say it in an inspiration book. But I talk to God every morning. Every morning. Every morning. I read some scriptures every morning. And for God to give me an answer to what I'm supposed to do today. So I feel so equipped. And people say, well, you're so cocky. You know, you are. You're arrogant. No, I'm just confident. You know, I'm confident and assured, you know, this little accident just happened to me, and I'm going, devil, you are not going to stop me. Believe me, it was hard for me to get here because I fail. I stumbled over the leg of a tv stand in the hallway in the dark. And, I mean, I had to lay there for a while before I could move. And it hurts so bad. But I said, devil, you're not going to stop me. I know you're trying to stop me from getting there, but that ain't going to happen today, brother. I guarantee you. So I'm that kind of person. You know, I'm just determined. I want people to remember me that way, that Charlie never gave up. Never ever gave up.

[32:55] BEVERLY PURNELL: Okay. And what's. I see you as being a perfect manifestation of God. And I appreciate you spending your time to share your thoughts and feelings and ideas about the world and to be courageous enough to share how you feel about yourself and to encourage us to also be grounded in that self awareness and confident to be able to move throughout our own personal world in the community in a safe, loving manner. And I just so appreciate your gifting us with your words today. And I want you to know you are loved forever and ever. And with that, I end the interview.

[33:57] CHARLIE FRANK BARLOW SR.: Do you mind if I ask Charlie, could you tell Beverly, you said at some point, you strayed away from the church, and you said, going crazy. Do you mind telling Beverly about what you meant by that? I. When, you know, we were. When I grew up, you know, you go into church no matter what. There's no option. And so when I went off to college, I stopped going to church because I'm free. I don't have to do that no more. But eventually, I came back to the church because I realized I needed it. When I went to work in New York after graduating from college, I strayed away from the church. But then I came back. When I went in the military, I had a good excuse because I was on an isolated base way out somewhere, and I didn't have to go to church. Well, I ended up finding a bible and studying. And when I came back to America after the military, I strayed away from the church. I went wild when I came back, because I had been away from the United States for about a year and a half, and I felt like the world had left me behind, and I'm catching up. So, I mean, I was wild as all get out. And my wife would get up and go to church, and I'd be laying in the bed, and after she left, I'd go partying all over again. But then after a while, you know, I realized, no, this ain't working. I need to go back to church. And I realized that foundation is there. And I typically would run out of gas because I would go too far. Then I realized I'm suffering because of me. I'm suffering because of what I'm doing. I'm not trusting God anymore. I'm not doing what God has told me to do. So I need to go back to my foundation, so I'd go back and get back involved in the church. And that's just been my life. Thank you. Bye.