John Elliott and Credell Walls

00:08 Credell walls age 40 today's date is March 13th. 2015 location is Oak Park, Illinois my relationship.

00:20 To John is we are colleagues.

00:25 John Elliott on Mom. This is March 13th, 2015. I'm 67 years old or some people say older than dirt. Curry is been a colleague for a short time.

00:39 John how long have you been around the forest preserve I started in January 1976 at Sandridge Nature Center and didn't know a thing about what was going on out there at the time and not from that kind of background is a nature center and trained as a professional Forester. So it was quite a shock to go out there. I retired in 2012 after 36 years and some months did you say 1976? That is what I said. Yes, South Holland on the far Southeast corner of Cook County. Okay. And what was your first roll their hats called a naturalist in a very broad kind of a title. It gets a lot of interesting responses when you tell people that don't know the field of what that is. But basically what it is is it education its interpretation is presenting the information that the forest preserves has Ian.

01:39 The woods II Men The Preserves to the public in various kinds of formats programming in the earlier days. We functioned as a district psychologist as well. They didn't have a district to not have any kind of an ecology or Land Management section per se so Nature Center staff did things like the early days of prairie management and maintained all of the facilities at the nature centers in some of the nature preserves and things like that as well say it was pretty exciting and diverse where you became a naturalist that you you did you you went to college you had training in that are yeah. Well, I have a degree in forestry and then a master's degree in actually Recreation economics. I guess you would say which has very little to do with what I ended up doing in the forest preserves either one of them, but I had the background in The Sciences a natural sciences from the forestry degree to get to be able to learn the the contents so to speak but the presentation the interpretation the program

02:39 I was Stone Cold. I had never done anything like that before I had to learn it all on the go. So who would who would you say was your Mentor at the time that people who I work with at the Nature Center who at that time and place was the director and they were two other naturalist at the same level. I was and then there some years more so they had to experience Paul Strand and Bob months. All of them has long since retired. They're all still around. So and they were very very helpful and in guiding me and helping me to get where I needed to go. So so it will work. Can you tell us about the the changes you've gone through through your career being a sandwich for myself personally out for yourself personally, and then yeah sequence was a y worked and began to do the programming going out to schools doing talks primarily to school kids that came out on field trips. That was our main role as interpreters in those days we began to do.

03:39 More general public programs while I was there somebody who had been done but not too many. We developed a very extensive program of general public programs every weekend at least something would happen, which was new to my experience as you so you going out to the school's what was that like for you boy? That was something that was somebody by the time I started it was already program that have been Innovative in its time is a lot of things in the district where I'd like to talk about but had gotten stale as we were sent out by the General headquarters. They're all the scheduling. They would send us a sheet that told us where we were going to go and what we were going to do there and we would take 16 millimeter film out. We had a library of those and we would show these films auditoriums full of children and then do a very brief introduction Show the movie and take questions and sometimes it worked but a lot of times it was a disaster we have kids just totally uninterested in a movie off the walls and things like that. So one of the things that we managed to do

04:39 Over the course of time all of the naturalist working together, but I feel like I played part of was get that changed to the point where instead of taking those films which were good enough in their time typically about 20 minutes. They were in shrimp 16 minutes to 25 in the 25 work too long. So it would be anywhere from the district didn't like to have us go out unless we had a room for they wouldn't they wanted us to see they wanted numbers and the right to see and so often times our be three or four hundred kids in an auditorium. Sometimes even more than that. I mean, they would fill out the Chicago Public School auditorium. And because we were out on the south end of the county we did a lot of the South Side schools. We went into the neighborhoods in the far south side of Chicago so we know what you would say. They were pretty rough neighborhoods never had any problems issues with that but audiences that were not necessarily ready for what we were trying to tell them in a lot of cases.

05:39 But now we also went to a lot of suburban schools and sometimes the problems were just the same at the Suburban schools in wealthier neighborhoods because it just the films just didn't carry they weren't directly related to the forest preserves. They were nature films, but they didn't have anything to do with the forest preserves for say so we would have to try to relate them to what's going on in the preserves and try to answer so it was a mixed response. Some of the programs were good. So we did that. So where would it would it? So what it is some of the changes that you guys were getting the administration to permit us to go to smaller groups that we didn't have to schedule for auditoriums full and I was a huge change right there. And then we put together some programs that were specific to the forest preserves and we did a month refilled 5 mm slides which for the kids was probably even more snooze inducing than the films were because there weren't any action but at least we got local stuff in there. We got local information, and I think that was progress in grass.

06:39 Overtime Dennis things progressed over 20 years of developing those programs. We dropped the side programs. We started bringing in Hands-On materials with the taking-in Bob animal pelts and bird skins and and skulls and bones and real things that for the most part and into single classrooms. And what is animal pelts sell skins first Parts the parts and if you don't mind me asking what time does the wildlife biologist you can buy them if you have it from from legitimate legal sources. Yeah, whatever you can get them. We we ended up buying things like wolf skins which you can get through legal sources, which we would never get around here or anything like that. So it's up to you think these new changes have him as much better than the old Alchemy its states night and day programs.

07:39 Woodland when I started were probably appropriate for the late 50s 60s when they were big gone and we were still showing films that were made in the sixties and which even the nights the seventies were getting pretty old and there were some really good songs, but they are dated and the anything you can get people to touch something real.

08:00 That's just cute. And that's really what the nature centers are all about us getting people out into the real world the real thing.

08:09 And so bringing things into a classroom. It's very very hard to bring live animals. Occasionally we could do that. I don't know if it's still are not probably once in awhile, but that's difficult for the protection of the animals and all that kind of thing. So it's more but even anything that's touchable seeable Indian rather than his movies and he's pictures makes a huge difference in that was all idea of the Nature Center was change in the way nature centers were operated when they were started in 1955 really was the idea that it's not a museum. May I go on with that little bit because I think that's really really important part of the story 1955 Roland eisenbeiss was the superintendent of the department and he got the idea of having a nature center. It's a really great story about how he had to go to Charles Tower steps hours. It was a general superintendent in convincing. This was a good idea because the district had Trailside Museum in Head trail side museum has been there since the 1930s, but it was really a museum. It was a museum in a small Zoo.

09:09 Do you live animals lots of parts and skins and things in cases dead things and in cases and that's good, but it didn't have that connection to the outside directly into to the what's going on outside. The building is contained in the building more or less and The Innovation with the the Nature Center was he got this one-room schoolhouse the Little Red Schoolhouse that have been abandoned which is still there. It's in Willow Springs while it's address is Willow Springs for Palos Forest Preserve Southwest part of Cook County and the idea was it people came in they got an introduction to things. I saw a real things but the whole idea was you don't stay in this building you come in here you get the introduction you get encourage you get excited and then you go out and you enjoy the outdoors and that's been kind of the guiding principle of nature centers ever since even with the new

10:04 Little Red School House building which is huge and still the whole thing is designed to walk through it. You come in one door. He walked through this thing and you go out another door onto the trails. That's where they the real thing is just a Segway just a little bit the old Little Red School House that was a museum with in it. That was a museum at first right before the new year was the Nature Center. That's right. That's the difference they're real and and I was told that that was moved while I've been moved twice at the actual first original location of it is out just west of where it is now on what it was 99th Street made. It was a lot of Country Road 99th Street that went through the what is now forest preserves, which is part of that or no part of the trail system and it was moved over to the west side of 104th Avenue East Side 104th Avenue to where the old scout camp was and was being used for a

11:05 Scout facility in the

11:10 That's when rolling sod over there and got the idea that it would make all of us have a one-room schoolhouse about the forest preserves and moved it to its current location to Road. And so so what are some of the the new activities going on that you're that you're really that you're really excited about can't talk a lot about what's going on in the district right now that much because I'm course been I still keep in touch with people and talk to folks but I'm not directly involved but has been my time as far as East is the programs developed as at the changes in the way we develop programs for the public is because we really didn't have training or experience in that now you can go out. In fact, I'm up a trainer still for interpretive naturalist for guides for the National Association for interpretation so we can teach people coming in a little bit more about how to

12:10 Watch this kind of things and give them a head start. We had to figure it all out for ourselves because nobody was doing any training at that time didn't exist basically and so we were figuring it out for ourselves. And so you start we would start with doing things we loved and so, you know, okay, I like this I'll do a program about it, which was fine because sometimes people like that but it took a while for us to figure out that it's not about us it's about the people who come in and trying to figure out what it is that they want to know the way you say doing some things that you love but they love what it what are examples of that that are always going to be for certain audiences are going to be a given spring wildflowers bird migration and you have that kind of thing. So we always there always going to be those programs. I think within the creative part is trying to figure out how you can get a larger message out of some of those basic things and that struggle and we still I think everybody still struggles with that and probably always will there are lots of environmental issues that are either

13:10 Really critical and whether you're going into a school in the more formal education program or whether you're doing it just for general public is coming out to your son or your other program sites, cuz how you take those things that are appealing to people and use them because that what counts as the same back is taking these parts into the school's right is he has something there that triggers the reaction this is good. This is cool. I want to know more about this and how do you take that and make it into

13:38 A more compelling message that's for the real skill comes in and sometimes you succeed and sometimes you don't and sometimes you get Negative reactions, but it's trying to figure out not just what I want to do because I like it and sometimes you get the audience because they happen to like the same thing you do. But what is it that the audience is going to relate to that you can then take away and have them take away the larger message the National Association for interpretation puts it is thematic and and the guru of this process is that at the University of Idaho who now does training and started this which didn't exist like it when I started its the so what every program needs to take away. So what so how did you how are you able to find out? What was good for the public? Well, you never ever succeed completely and you reacted what you see you. Try things. You try to find out you talk to people you see what kind of questions people are asking when they come in answer the phone or we did not.

14:38 We didn't ever have the facility to do that. We're going to be a great ideas box or we did do that, but we didn't get a lot of really good responsible in terms of in my opinion, which is a shortcoming surveys would be great surveys are limited and we figured out very quickly as we didn't have the resources to do a service or a that seat of the pants still in part of the problem with it is as if progress is being it is somewhat difficult is okay to talk into which of the people who come to your nature centers and their different one of the Innovations with the district was placing the Nature Center cook County's big in four different the four basic nature Center's not counting the Trailside Museum in Sag want what you really a different focus and what they were doing this scattered around the district geographically well-spaced but also a different Community types out there. Each one is different, but he

15:38 John has its own kind of audience because typically they draw from a fairly their local part of the county which in the end of the issue we were finding and I think it's still going on with a district is that you're missing large segments of the population in the county like cook particularly Intercity and ethnic groups different language is non English-speaking people. So reaching them is much much more difficult. It's not that hard to figure out how to reach your immediate audience because you talked to him daily and you see what they like and they enjoy but trying to figure out how to reach these other audiences is is much more difficult and I don't have the answers to that. So that's what I delete no child inside initiative.

16:24 What road is you feel like you played in that will not really a whole lot directly into it. But I was at one point in my career during the time. I was at the directorate river trail Nature Center went there in 1990 and then started shifting back and forth between the Nature Center and the headquarters in them or supervisory position and no 2001 mm to do during the 90s we started I guess that would be a little bit before them the actual leave no child inside initiative began, but Chicago was created in WhatsApp mid-light 90 something like that and we were very active in in that which is an important part of the story is the cooperation and so forth and then and at some point I do not remember the exact years Chicago Builders had a leave no child inside working group that brought all the different members of Chicago Wilderness and work on it. Then I was active and participated in that.

17:26 It's the old weighs exactly what it says is that we see that in Richard Lewis book last child in the woods with kind of the trigger for this. It was nothing really new in that book. But I hit a nerve at the right time or became very popular that kids are spending their time sitting inside for various reasons. They like plugged in to electronics their parents are afraid to let him out all these different factors. And so they all ideas in tennis what nature centers are all about right from the first time it matches perfectly. That's what the nature centers are there for to bring people kids. Especially the kids were always the primary first audience for the nature centers families to bring them out and so it matches perfectly and so there was an issue have to try to develop more programs to bring more kids out to encourage parents to be secure and safe in these ways to do it. And so

18:19 That was part of the Chicago Wellness Education team, which I was active on from the time it was formed and was at some point in their was co-chair of the Chicago Wellness Education team, and we did a lot of this kind of stuff. We worked a lot with Chicago Park District, which was a new thing is kind of something that came out of the Chicago Wilderness initiative. We had never really done these kind of partnership and other forest preserves in the park District's and solves. A lot of new creative ideas came out of there. So would you say you were one of the main forces are representatives for the with the Chicago world for the education for this because there are other groups within Chicago, Illinois to the land management team and in that kind of thing. I talked to a lot of them and participated at lower levels, but but for the Education team during my tenure I was probably the first

19:18 Play the primary Forest Preserve representative for that.

19:22 And that was very productive. I hope for the other folks. It was certainly a rewarding for me. And so you so you and that with the Force Reserve anymore now, but you but you were still around in in in different capacities what keeps you so involved it's not just leave no child inside us leave no person inside and I personally have to visit Richard louv. I had one of his Innovations coined the term of nature deficit disorder and if I don't get outside almost every day, I like starting to get all work. It just doesn't work. I have to be out there. So that's when it's also what matters I'm not going to be here for all that much longer. So what happens after I'm gone do I care? I mean I could just blow it off, you know, I could sit on the porch and drink my beer and but I think it's important that all of us leave some

20:22 For the future hit my own kids and generations after.

20:27 Speaking of your kids during your time with the forest preserve where you able to get them involved and in your work or any for that like kids are as they don't necessarily want to follow in the footsteps of love Dad. And neither one of my kids is directly involved in any kind of nature outdoor Wildlife field. They both have certain social.

20:52 Social obligations that they're concerned folks and doing their part in different ways and they both do can't go outside and enjoy the outdoors and let me sort of rude sometimes reluctantly and sometimes willingly did volunteer stretches stretches at the nature centers and came to the kids programs. One of the things that we did that Sandridge we started that for the district. It wasn't new to the world but was going to do last night. We did a differently was was what we call eye opener canceled Sand Ridge Nature Center, which you know, lots of organizations do summer camps for Barbie holiday camps for kids because parents need something for kids to do, but to have them directly nature-oriented all nature-oriented just for clarification. You say holiday camps. Are you thinking like over over Christmas to Christmas break when kids are off school?

21:52 It's Sandridge and they call him Discovery days at River Trail and programs and I feel really strongly proud of that because we started those at Sandridge we

22:08 We have staff that were all enthusiastic about it. We work together well, but three gentlemen I mentioned before it will got on the same page. We fought about a lot of stuff but we were late in big term. We always got along really well and it works so well to develop thing and the other nature centers looked at us like we do you do when you can't do that and that's too much work and it's not going to work and Baba Baba blah and it didn't take very long until call centers were doing doing the same kind of thing. So so that was one thing that it we talked about Innovations. I think it's it. Is that something that still going on that and we starting with a narrow range of children that we felt comfortable working with in overtime of expanded that range of Ages to work with not a lot of luck with getting teens in it's been tried it a couple of places but that's part of herself. That's but that's a challenging audience. So so what was if you don't mind me asking what was what were some of the things doing your time you guys try to do to get teens in or what?

23:09 What were the I have not been as a directly involved with that? We tried just just setting up the same kind of programs that we were doing for like the middle school grades. We were working basically started with an 8 to 12 or an age range and having a real good luck with that. And if so, then we moved into the younger kids and had pretty good luck with Dad. And then we just tried to do the same kind of programs for teens a different activities, of course, but it just didn't have the appeal and teens that so many other things to do and Beyond a dino at Sandridge after I left Sandridge they had some more success with some programs out there, but you'd really probably need to talk more to the people Rebecca Moss Jim Carpenter and I'll buy months when he was was still working out there who how they and I know they did at some programs that went well, but I don't know exactly how they did. They did. They did more the adventure putting in the adventure component a little bit. I think that's part of it it appeals to the older kids little more more active things.

24:09 Beyond that I can't talk too much about that. No, that's fine. So have you I know that some sweet you are a director. You said director naturalist at Sandridge and red laces my supervisor director to be in the director at River Trail nature song couches up in Northbrook. And then have you had the opportunity of working at all of the nature centers or just a permanent assignment only at Sandridge and River Trail, but I worked at all of them at one point or another either as a temporary and I'm going out to help him out on something going to special events always tried. We always try to keep have people from every nature center go to the other nature centers at least to help out with special events to get acquainted with folks. That was one of the things that when I started we never did very much he worked at your Nature Center and you never know what that was about it. And so it was a real big positive move that we started circulating a lot more.

25:06 I like that to actually and then when I did move into the office headquarters eventually and become a supervisor the education manager, which is a terrible title for because it doesn't really have that much to do with formal education and I had absolutely zero background and education formally and my opinion on education as you can't manage it anyway is your goal is to facilitate and certainly in the forest preserve its facilitation. It's not managing but never was in the reorganization in 2003 was huge budget cuts in major reorganization. And and so this position was kind of created in a hurry because we were cutting budgets and moving people around

25:54 So we basically created it for me in a sense is if I may say that because you're a supervisor. The people said I wanted me in there to do something in the position where I might have gone was gone. Right? Right. So the title was poor. But anyway, when I first started with that, we had a lot of we had a lot of time because we went through this budget cuts. We had a lot of short staff time do a lot of nine from nature centers are scrambling to keep the doors open and so as a manager, I went out to every nature center and spent days working as a naturalist at every one of them. This is fill in some of the center for often than others because they had more trouble so I would spend days going in and mopping the floors and cleaning the meal cleaning up to get the place open at Crabtree and Little Red School House and then answering the phone all day in talking to groups just like every naturalist and doesn't you know, and that's I think that's a good

26:49 Definitely definition of someone who's a manager to because you you had the ability to actually fill in vs. Just managers should never ask somebody to do something is not a whole lot of fun and there are. That when I was a director of her Trail or we had no maintenance person on staff. So we did it and it's not like I objected to doing it but it got a little Annoying to do it every day until a position for a maintenance person, but hurry up.

27:23 What I liked most was in a wreck while there's two things really it's just being there being out there being having the opportunity is Sue Holt to talk to you soon. We were out when she work with me at River Trail for a number of years. We were together there and we just did taken 15 minutes one morning in the spring to go out and into the woods and get ready for the day and when they had that opportunity to do that is who who gets to do that? And I remember that we were up there one day and so just looked at me and said John we're the luckiest people in the world and you get paid to do this course is all his aggravation the but the other part of it was a really rewarding part of it is when you get people in especially cats and you find the reactions and we've had some just absolutely

28:05 Emotional responses come back from people. You don't get very much feedback in this job. You see people that go away. They seem like they're happy but you really never can tell for sure if you've succeeded. So when you get those people who come back and tell you a story which is happened a few times that validates what you did work is like, oh my goodness. This is well. I I remember who could probably tell you the story might want to ask her about this. So she may not remember and I don't remember the name of the family. There was a child who came into one of the Innovative programs that have the started at River Trail while I was there and I didn't start it with Sue Holter Michelle Malo. What's who started it but I was a director so I get credit for letting them do it was up a program a junior naturalist program, which is a ongoing program the kids come in they sign up and they do this series of projects and things through the course of three months.

29:05 What's the rage you started with a 212 again? And I think it's expanded a little beyond that maybe a little younger and so some of those kids with then come back for quarter after quarter. And if they did four years in our four seasons in a row, then they they got a reward of some kind of certificate but there was a kid and I don't remember the name who went through that program in the family came back later and they just had done. I can't give you the details with this incredibly emotional story about all this child had been going through all these troubles and difficulties, which maybe we didn't really recognize and we didn't know that and how old is program at just turn this get around and and him but others the family is family that brought their kids into that program the kids stayed in until they were adults and came back to volunteer.

29:53 He and Anna parents day does volunteers and things like that that that really validate that so speaking of that. Is there anything you want to share with us about the mighty Acorn program? Yeah. It was a good wear underwear on time because I definitely want to talk about that little bit and when when Chicago Wilderness began we started doing more Cooperative programs with other agencies around and it'll be gone before that but really kind of was triggered by that and the forest preserve District got involved more much more directly with the nature conservancy on a number of projects different things perfectly restoration projects out of the Pelos area some of the first bid larger-scale project. We've been doing small-scale Prairie Restorations and things like that Pearlie getting into it in a bigger way and that's something that I hope somebody coming in and telling you stories about cuz it's hugely important, but I digress

30:44 But in the process of that and I'm not quite sure who came up with the idea how it was it was initiated cuz I was not in the initial discussion but the nature conservancy office in Chicago and the folks out. It's a guava that that time Ralph Lauren was a director out there at that time and was very strong involved in the restoration projects and eventually became the first district he call a person when that preach position was created, but they got talking about different kinds of programming the way to do things and somebody has stuff this idea the mighty acorns program, which is a more of a formal education based program, but it's that tie between the formal and informal is always with that tie between the school programs with your formal education curriculum based in the informal stuff. We just come out in and learn things as you do but the idea was that instead of just having school kids come out for a field trip. They come out with a very specific.

31:41 Gold pattern of programming and they come repeatedly so a teacher with sign up her here or his or her almost. The first ones were almost all women and then I probably continues that way but that's another story to a why we have this dominance of gender-role, but

32:00 Sign up a classroom single classroom and then it was 4th 5th and 6th grade and the goal would be that a fourth grade class would sign up from school and they would come three times during the course of a school year spring winter fall winter and spring and they would do a set.

32:19 Series of activities each time they came out they would do Amanda respiration activity then cut brush or they would collect seeds or something like that. Depending on the seas are pull weeds as part of their field trips. They wouldn't have a some sort of a kind of a formal activity that a teacher or Naturals wood died. And then there would be a portion of free time for the kids will be sent out with maybe a notebook or just right and they would do that each of the three seasons that they came out and they would do that two or three seasons and then ideally that same group of kids would come the next year in the next year and there have been probably a few classes that actually managed to do that. But of course that's like shoes it difficult to pull off logistically. So that was the idea of it and it was first Issaquah pre-program between The Nature Conservancy in The Preserves Cook County into the programs were all in Cook County Cook County School spray and The Nature Conservancy was basically running the program for the district.

33:16 And then it's time time went on other people looked at that and I became a became a Chicago Wilderness Program so that now I don't know how many organizations when I left. There were about a dozen different still a part of that. We're doing Mighty acorns programs surrounding counties park districts and others who took on the program and then during the course of time The Nature Conservancy office in Chicago was directed by their national headquarters to refocus their their mission more on their car. And so they had to drop it and then for the Cook County program, we took it on while I was a supervisor to run it ourselves, which is still the way it's run in Cook County. Is it and have our own core of people having separate section in the in the

34:07 In the department that runs that part of the program and is expanded adopt other activities as well with that was tied right into the leave. No child inside. It's so what did you think about the program under under your team? Did you like it? If you enjoy it. I think it it doesn't work perfectly of course, but it's just what if you go out there with those kids when they're out there and specially the ones that have been coming back a couple of times just before I left out on the Southside Rebecca Moss was working with some schools in the south side of Chicago that had some of the kids had finished three years. They were sixth-graders who are at been through three years of the program and has a ceremony out of Dan Ryan Woods one day with the kids who had finished the the thing and they handing out these certificates to the kids and it's just it's one of those rewarding things. It's just it's incredible you give him his stories from now or ever

35:07 I do not have them in hand people who work the staff of work with them would be able to come come up with because it has one of the things some of the schools have the kids do was keep journals keep the records and some of those things that I've seen some of them but I couldn't repeat any of them, but they're pretty amazing thing about that is very very labor-intensive to help people out there that devote a lot of time in the district has done that pretty well, but you reach this little tiny fraction of the kids who could benefit from it just to simply not enough places to take them and not enough people to take them there. And so you have to say okay that's kind of the creme de la Crumb Lovelace leaving child and besides red cream of the crown on the top of the top top thing. That's the best but only a few kids get to do that and fortunately some of those kids have been those that we traditionally think I was underserved kids coming from the inner city Spanish-speaking almost primary Spanish speaking.

36:07 That have participated on YouTube. So that's a terrific thing. But there's so many kids out there that are getting that and then never will probably so you have to find other ways to get on out there. But so is there a is there anything else you might want to share with us about your time with the forest preserve or what you really like about the forest preserve. Well the thing I think it's really really critical about the forest preserves in general is the whole idea of what it's there for that year and the district is doing the big thing with the Centennial which add stamps to we should be doing because when the district's about Innovations just freaked. It was something completely and totally new.

36:50 And in the next hundred years it needs to continue to be here for one thing that keep a cousin it can go away. It's it's not something that's directed by some higher power power power. It was Quantico process that created it and political process could make it go away and we hope that that'll ever happen and it doesn't look like it will but you never know so vigilance, but yeah that just that ties bags if what's the big message? What's the end result and it's having the forest preserves for the things that live out there that are shared we share yours with and for us to be able to go out there and enjoy them in this huge metropolitan area, and they have that so many people can walk and not fortunate probably not. I'm don't

37:41 But there are people who have terrible access problems that did no matter where they are. They have difficulty getting out but there's a lot of people that live right there. These preserves are in their neighborhoods in my grade. Is that a fantastic is that and the nature centers in the education programs play that role in getting people to know that and understand that and take advantage of it. I can't tell you how many times that every nature center. I was ever at people will come in and I'll say OG I've lived over here a mile away. And I never knew what was here finally stopped in and go while so that's part of the shortcoming we have is a we haven't reached all those people they're still all those people out there. So there's plenty of work to be done but

38:28 When the successes are terrific and rewarding and we hoped it. I hope that it whatever way I can continue to play any role in and making that happen and I have my side things that I'm doing that I hold still work on helping did it to try to encourage yet? Well, I mean, I mean just from my own observation. I want to thank you for for all the work that you continue to do with the forest preserve cuz I'm I'm saying you at different events and especially you still have your strong connection to River Trail. Well Imperial side now just because it's closed because I live here in Alphard us and I was going to ask you that to Dunmore volunteer stuff at Trailside than anyplace else.

39:15 Well, thank you for your time. Thank you for coming out. Thanks for having me and you know where to find me if this won't be the last one.