Cheryle Gail and Brinn Langdale continue the conversation of breaking the silence to protect children from childhood sexual abuse.

00:01 All right, part two. Cheryle Gale, Penryn, California. Brinn Yeah, go ahead. Yeah.

00:08 Brinn Langdale. I'm in Asheville, North Carolina. Yeah.

00:11 And this is part two. We got. We're just sharing about the forgiveness. Please carry on.

00:20 Yeah. So I was saying that. Yeah, I went on a mission in my 29th year to forgive my brother by my 30th birthday. And it was also the same time I started grad school. And I had a professor brought in a guest speaker, and she is a therapist. And she just casually mentioned, like, offhanded, that she wrote a book about being abused by her father and forgiving him. And immediately, I was like, I need to work with this woman. And so I bought the book, and I.

00:54 Tell us what the name of it is.

00:57 It's called I lost my marbles, I think.

01:01 Oh, I have not heard of that one. Okay.

01:03 And, yeah, so that was the first time I ever read anybody's account of any sort of sexual abuse. For some reason. I was 29, and I had kind of spent. I kind of just avoided. I'd never googled anything about it. I had never looked into it. I really had never researched anything.

01:28 And what is the author's name? That's all right. I'll come to you. We can add it later.

01:35 Yeah, yeah. Okay. So you read the book. I started working with her, and she asked me. I remember her asking me in one of the first sessions, she said, what if total healing came from this relationship? And I started crying. And it was just this moment of, like, I don't know if anybody had ever asked me that question before. And it just hit me in a way of, like, wow, could I really get, like, full healing from this? Like, yes, I had been on a healing journey, and, like, yes, I have, like, come so far and all this stuff, but I was like, whoa. Like, full healing? Like, what does that even mean? And this is also prior to this, like, you know, a lot of accounts of him, like, crossing my boundaries and me trying to say, like, don't talk to me. And then him talking to me and, you know, this other stuff. And so that year, a lot of things happened, but a lot of, like, me feeling a lot of feelings and me putting up boundaries and having those boundaries be crossed. And then me actually, like, doing things to make myself safe, like, blocking him and threatening to call the cops if he continued to, like, harass me. And all of those things were me exerting my power, which I had never done before. I had always just let him kind of steamroll me. And even though it didn't get to the point where I, you know, called the police or anything, it was just still me using adult tactics. And I think for me, that was really healing. It was what my inner child needed. She needed somebody to stand up for her and not just, like, continue to endure. And so I started using adult tactics, and that was really helpful. I also had this, like. Yeah, I spent. I did a research paper on the topic of sibling sexual abuse for my graduate program, and that was really healing and helpful. I realized how much I was not alone. I realized how frequently this happens, how common it is, how little research there is. I saw, like, kind of, like, treatment plans for families for the first time ever, and that was really special. So I had a lot of emotions around that, a lot of feelings, a lot of, like, oh, why won't my family ever do this kind of stuff?

04:02 Talk a little bit about the specifics and the treatment plans that were eye opening for you.

04:08 Yeah, there was this one wherever, you know, obviously, like, individual therapy for all parties involved. But there was this one where they actually had, like, the whole family kind of, like, sitting in a circle, and they had every single member of the family get on their knees and apologize to the victim. Oh, every single member.

04:32 Wow. Beautiful.

04:34 And that's really significant because it is a family issue.

04:39 Yeah.

04:40 Yeah, it is. And I think my family very much treated it like it was between two people.

04:47 Mm hmm.

04:48 And I don't think that that is the best way to treat it. Yeah, it is a family issue.

04:55 Yeah.

04:55 And so the responsibility of parents and even older siblings. So. Well, there's evidence that my. My older sibling knew, and she told my mom when I was ten years old, and, you know, nothing ever happened. And then there's total denial and no memory of that ever happening from my mom. And it's like, you know, I don't really know what does it do about that one? But my older sister knew, and she said something about it. Nothing ever happened. So. So, yeah, so it's very much a family issue. And so that was one thing that really stuck out for me, was, like, having. Yeah, having the. And then also having the same thing happen with the. With the perpetrator, you know, apologizing to the perpetrator as well. Um, because there wasn't support there. And I believe that every time somebody inflicts trauma, they are inflicting trauma onto themselves. So it. It was. He. He is. He is extremely traumatized. He's an extremely traumatized human being. He was a traumatized child. You know, he was physically abused and emotionally and also, he had carried all this shame and guilt and secrecy and all of this. And so, you know, there was a lot of trauma there, too. And that's kind of where I came to when I was doing the research, was that we were kind of, like, kind of looking at him as, like, a co victim.

06:42 Uh huh.

06:44 Because we are both young also, and we were both going through something really, really intense that, like, children should not be harboring on their own. Yeah, but we were.

06:58 Yeah. Yeah.

06:59 And so, um, I started to gain compassion for him also. It's easy to gain compassion for him because I fully believe and see that he has suffered way more in this lifetime than I have. It's not like he's some super successful, enjoying his life type person. He is. He's very. He's had an extremely hard life because of his own choices and his own decisions. But I know that he has suffered a lot more in this lifetime. So I was kind of, like, dealing with all that, and I was also getting to, like, my sadness and my grief of that. And I also was at a time where I was also forgiving my mom for everything as well. Um, so I forgave her. I wrote her a love letter, and I read it to her on mother's day. So, like, in may, I think. And then by August, I wrote him a letter, and I was journaling one night, and it just. In my journaling, it just came out. I forgave him. And it was. It was this realization of, like, I've always held this, like. Like, a trump card in my hand of, like, I've had it so bad. I had this crazy life. I had this crazy thing happen to me. And, like, you don't get how hard I have worked because you don't know what I've been through. And I just had this moment of, like, I am me no matter what, and I am amazing, and I am wonderful, and I am me, and I am perfect, and I am great, and I am, you know, this. This incredible being. And it doesn't matter what's happened to me, and it doesn't matter where I've been or what I've come from. And all of those make up who I am right now, and I love who I am right now. And it was just this, like, I chose to lay down my sword, and it was a very intentional, like, I don't want to feel this anymore. I want to let go of this anger. I want to forgive, because I'm just sick of all of this emotional charge all the time. And so when I came to that realization. It was like a light switch. Everything changed. I had no problem calling him. I read him the email or the letter. He didn't really have much of his. He didn't have a great response to it, but I didn't really care. That was on him. I made a big Facebook post talking about forgiveness and talking about my experience. I had a lot of people reaching out to me saying how impactful it was. My family wasn't very excited that I posted it, even though it was pretty anonymous. And yeah, it's basically been like a complete. It's been totally different ever since. I have no problem talking to him. I have no problem seeing him. Family events aren't an issue. I care for him. Like I said, he's really not doing well, and I worry about him. It's kind of situation where we've all been waiting for that phone call for decade now. And, um. And it's sad and it's hard. And I wish he got help. I really genuinely wish he got help, and I wish more people did. If you can think about all the people suffering these days, whether it's with homelessness or major mental health stuff or addiction or things like that, and how many of them have either been perpetrators or been victims themselves, that number is probably massive.

10:58 Yeah, absolutely. Yep, absolutely.

11:01 So, yeah, I would really, you know, there's not a lot of work around helping perpetrators, and there's not a lot of perpetrators who come forward who want help.

11:10 Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

11:12 So I really wish to someday shift that in some way.

11:17 Could you imagine what would be possible if he was able to go to the authentic leadership center?

11:24 Yeah, I mean, if he got any sort of help, it would be great. I mean, I have, you know.

11:36 Have you let him know that you would like him to get help that you'd like him to have healing?

11:44 The honest answer to that is no. That has been something I've been wanting to tell him for a really long time, and it's really hard to talk to him about it, and I haven't had the courage to do so. I have talked to him about healing our family. I have talked to him about, actually not that long ago, a couple months ago, talking to him about sharing our story together. I've talked to him about him writing a book. I'm publishing a book here soon. And him talking about publishing a book, talking about speaking together on the topic. So that has been discussed.

12:28 Could you imagine him being interviewed by brave voices?

12:36 Potentially? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that would be. That would be beautiful. Great.

12:48 Know that that's out there and a possibility.

12:50 Thank you.

12:51 Yeah. And is there anything that you'd specifically like to tell him or any of your family members that you haven't yet?

13:06 Um. I guess the only thing I would really want to say is that it's all going to be okay.

13:16 Hmm.

13:18 And that me sharing my story has absolutely nothing to do with them. And then it's going to be okay. And that we have come so far as a family.

13:31 We have.

13:32 The amount of healing, it makes me teary just thinking about it. The amount of healing that my family has done is incredible, especially because I'm in a position now where I see other families a lot and I see what isn't there. And the fact that I can talk openly with both of my parents. I have step parents, too. So the fact that I can talk a lot with all of my parents and all of my siblings and feel their support and their love is tremendous because I know that that's not there for everybody.

14:28 And so for anyone listening, can you give any ideas or suggestions on how to get there?

14:35 Do your work first. You can absolutely heal without them. And the more that you focus on your own healing, the easier it's going to be to have those conversations. And the more you can show up as your adult self and not revert back to your teenager, your angsty teenager, or your hurt little girl. And the more you can show up as your adult and recognize them as adults, the better off it is.

15:13 And what are the top three modalities or places that you'd send someone who's just starting off on their healing journey?

15:21 Well, I would send them to my free workshop, which is called your travel guide to your healing journey. And it is all about the foundational information and resources that you need to when you're just starting off on a healing journey. So that's a free resource on my website, which is brinlingdale.com, comma, my first and last name.com.

15:53 B r n l a n g.

15:55 D a L. Yeah. So brinlangdale.com.

16:02 All right.

16:03 Yeah. And there's tons of resources, tons of books, tons of podcasts, healing feelings, charts, you know, all sorts of things. Journaling prompts all sorts of stuff.

16:19 So two questions that I haven't gotten around to are you mentioned something about a breakup when you were 29 and that you knew if you didn't deal with this, it was going to affect all your relationships going forward. Can you talk a little bit about if you've gotten to a healthy relationship and what's different on how you approach those now?

16:43 Yeah, 100%. So one thing about me is that a huge motivation. If you remember when I talked about my intervention with my college boyfriend, it was, if you don't work on this, we're not together anymore. And me, just who I am as a person, I am motivated to be a good partner in this lifetime. I want a good partner. I want to be a good partner. I want health and all of my relationships, romantically or not. So that's what motivates me. I am motivated by my relationships. Like, sure, I wanted to feel better, but, like, I want to show up as a better friend, I want to show up as a better sister, I want to show up as a better daughter, I want to show up as a better partner. So that's really what motivates me in my life. That being said, if I'm constantly on an emotional rollercoaster, or if I'm filled with anxiety because I'm afraid of being abandoned, or if I'm having these emotional breakdowns and outbursts, then I'm not showing up. And usually those only happen in romantic relationships, not our friendships and stuff. But if that's the case, then I'm not being that partner that I want. And so a huge part of my work is healing my anxious attachment stuff and being. Being okay, being secure in who I am. And so that way, if a partner and I decide that we're no longer a good fit, I am okay saying goodbye to them, and I don't feel like I'm being abandoned. And so, therefore, also, I don't endure and I don't tolerate things that aren't right for me, also, just because I'm afraid of being abandoned. So I'm an adult now. Adults don't get abandoned. Kids get abandoned. So by me doing my work, it has really helped me become a better partner, for sure, and attract healthier relationships, because the more I work on myself, the more I am going to have a healthier relationship. That's just kind of how it works.

18:48 And can you give me a little insight into when you have a little inkling that your anxious attachment is acting out? How do you deal with that?

19:02 Yeah. So for people that aren't aware, like, we all have attachment styles, there's different types of attachment styles we attach to our caregivers when we're young, and then those blueprint into any sort of attachment, whether it's a friendship or a romantic relationship. And so for me, when I feel the anxious attachment coming up to me, that means it's my inner child being scared. And so when my inner child gets scared, I take a moment to first recognize it and to take a pause to take a few deep breaths. And that helps get my nervous system settled. It helps clear my head. Taking deep breaths is the absolute best thing that you can do for yourself. If you have no money and you don't know, if you don't want to go to therapy, if you don't want to do anything else, start taking deep breaths on a very regular basis, and it'll totally change your life. And so taking deep breaths and then talking to my inner child. My inner child. Her name is Brinn Emily. And that was the name I was called as a kid. My middle name is Emily. So her name is Brinn Emily. And I speak to her out loud, and I just tell her, you know, I usually give her a nice little hug. I put my hand on my heart, I take some deep breaths, and I say, oh, Brinn Emily. It's okay. It's okay, honey. I'm here. And I just talked to her, like, I would talk to a kid or talk to, like, a dog who was scared, you know, like, kind of use that, like, soothing tone, and you let them know that, like, they're not alone, because that's really what the fear is, is that they're going to be alone. And the reality is that you're the adult now and this scared part of you, they can exist, but the more you can bring the adult online, which just means you're in a clear, connected, regulated space, the easier life is to manage.

21:03 Yeah. Thank you. One of my favorite quotes is, may your inner voice be the kindest voice, you know, voice you hear. Yeah.

21:13 Yeah. That's so good. And speaking of quotes, one quote that I really love, that is the opening of my book, is that, you know, for those of us who experienced trauma in childhood, we always wished that someone would come rescue us, but we never imagined that it would be our adult self. And that's really what I feel like is true for me, is that I've always wanted to be saved. I've always wanted to be saved, and I look for that. I have historically looked for that in romantic relationships, and that just doesn't quite work out very well. But when I save me, that's when things work out. And so my healing journey has all been about rescuing me and rescuing my little girl when she's feeling freaked out and terrified. Doing that over and over and over and over and over again until.

22:14 So even with as much work as you've done. There are still times when you are going to have that you talk to your inner child and rescue your little inner child 100%.

22:27 I did it while I was driving yesterday.

22:29 Uh huh. Great, great.

22:31 Because that's how, that's the, that's the healing cycle. Right. We think of healing as this, like, straight line, but it's really a cycle because the thing that bothers us, the thing that triggers us, doesn't necessarily go away. It comes back around. Just like a cycle comes back around. But it's, every time it comes back around, you have more of an opportunity to handle it a little differently. And that's where the healing comes in. It's about equipping yourself with, like, tools and skills, so when the thing does pop back up, you're able to handle it with more grace and confidence.

23:04 Yeah. Awesome. I've recently had some dental work, and on the paperwork and right to the dentist, I say, I have a hard time having my mouth forced open, and it takes a lot to regulate my body, and I just want you to know that. And so.

23:23 Yeah, yeah.

23:24 And for those of us who were raped orally as, as children, dental, and I think all the dentists need to be aware of that. How, how many of the people in the chair are having a hard time and, and how much love and care needs to be paid attention to that.

23:42 Yeah.

23:44 And that's one, just one of the ways I break the sight. Silence is just bringing that explicit clarity to, to the doctors.

23:53 Yeah. And that sounds like a very adult move that is taking care of your inner child. Yeah, yeah. That's beautiful.

24:02 And then is there anything about the spiritual aspect that you want to touch on?

24:09 Yeah, I feel like my spirituality has shaped so much of my life. It's brought about a lot of healing, too. And.

24:20 You mentioned praying that you pray.

24:23 I pray, I meditate, I visualize. I, you know, astrology, oracle cards, like, kind of like tarot cards have been a huge part of my healing journey. Just positivity, you know, like, I feel like anything where you are talking positively to yourself, whether you're. You feel like you're talking to the universe or God or a higher power or nature or whatever, talking to yourself positively, giving gratitude. I believe gratitude. We all have things to be grateful for. We, every single one of us has so much to be grateful for. I don't care what your life looks like. And the more you can focus on that, and to me, that is spirituality. But to other people, it doesn't have to be spirituality, but I definitely believe more of like, what we put out is what we get back. And so, you know, how I treat others is how I'm going to be treated or how I think about myself. If I think about myself negatively, then I'm going to start treating other people negatively. But if I think about myself more positively, I'm going to treat other people more positively. And so, yeah, I mean, I feel like there's so many different aspects that I could talk about about my spirituality. But, like, it really comes down to, to that for me. And, and with the whole astrology thing, you know, a lot of people, a lot of survivors get caught up in, like, the, why did this happen to me? And to me, that is a. That's a. That's an inner child asking that question. Right? Children ask those kind of questions, why? Why? Why? And so for me, when I was dealing with all of that and then to be told by this astrologer that, like, she saw it in my birth chart, it really felt like this moment of, like, oh, this is. This was supposed to be this way so I could learn these lessons, so I could have these life experiences. And then I've also done past life regressions where I went back to a past life, and I actually saw that I raped somebody. And that was a really powerful experience for me, very emotional experience. And it really showed me that, like, you know, we're all humans. We all are going through these experiences. Sometimes you're a villain in somebody else's story, and sometimes you're the hero. We can't always be the hero. And so we do have to go through the good and the bad. So what happened in a previous life, you know, now is, like, happening on this other end. And that I'm certain that my brother and I have lived many lives together. And then this one, we just happen to be siblings, and we happen to have this soul contract in this lifetime where, you know, he was the villain in my story in this lifetime. And for me, that has brought so much healing and solace, and I know it's not something I could have done immediately. You know, that this has taken time. I needed to feel all the anger. I couldn't just, like, bypass the anger. I couldn't bypass the betrayal, bypass the grief. Right? We call that spiritual bypassing. Oh, everything happens for a reason. Just get over it. No, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about going into all of the feelings, feeling them, experiencing them, learning from them, learning how to be in this lifetime, and then also be able to find that compassion and forgiveness. And if that word. I know that's a very loaded word for a lot of people. So, to me, it's, you know, letting go and compassion and understanding.

28:11 And that you did it for yourself.

28:13 100%. Yeah, 100%. There was no doing it for him. That never even occurred to me. My mom used to tell me that. My mom used to tell me I needed to forgive him because he would kill himself if he didn't, if I didn't. And that. That just froze me. That made me angry. That pushed me farther away. It put a bad taste in my mouth. That made me not want to do it. So, you know, here I was, duty and obligation, right, for something that he had done.

28:44 Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

28:46 So it was really about me finding that I was ready to let go of the anger because the anger kept me. The anger protected me. It kept me. It kept a safe buffer. It kept a good distance. But then I realized, oh, I don't need the anger anymore in order to keep the boundary, because I am now adult enough to keep that boundary myself when I need to.

29:11 Mm hmm. Wow. What a journey. And I'm just gonna end with is, do you feel like there's a anything left in your body, any physical challenges that you are still experiencing that you attribute to having been harmed sexually as a child?

29:33 Honestly, no.

29:35 Fantastic. The migraines are virtually completely gone, and the stomach aches are gone. And you've done your work, you've moved through it.

29:45 Yeah. You know, and, you know, my stomach, when I get anxious, my stomach gets in knots, and then I breathe and I tell my inner child it's okay, and then it goes away. You know, my body will continue to tell me things, but, yeah, if I. But, yeah, it was. It was a lot of body stuff for a long time. And now I feel really good. Even, like, you know, my face feels really clear. And that's also one thing that can get, you know, stuck, is, like, acne. But, yeah, no, I feel. I feel really good in my body these days.

30:18 Hmm. Fantastic.

30:20 Yeah.

30:20 And what kind of advice would you give parents, adults, grandparents, as far as making it clear that the protection of their children is their responsibility and what this they may be doing may do to prevent their loved children from being harmed?

30:42 Yeah, 100%. So I am nothing a prevention expert by any means. I'm more on the healing side of things. But I will say that it is definite. Education in this area is definitely needed, and you can find it. There are. There are children's books that will teach about it. There are workshops you can go to. There's a lot of content online for body safety right now. I have friends who are in this arena that do this work.

31:15 Bravevoices.org has a whole page called learn that.

31:20 There you go. So, yes, it is absolutely huge responsibility and very, very necessary because kids will be kids, and we know that. We know it is common knowledge that kids will be curious about each other's bodies. So then we need to take that step further and talk about where, when it crosses the line, past curiosity. And so, you know, we talk. If we know this common knowledge, then, like, we need to be taking it that step further and. And not being afraid to have those conversations, because a lot of people think, oh, if I talk about sex, then my kid's gonna go have sex. But the reality is, like, statistics and research show us that, like, that's not the case.

32:00 Yeah.

32:01 And, like, the more you talk about it and the more you normalize it and just make it everyday conversation, like, the more risk of anybody harming them sexually, goes down significantly. Great.

32:16 All right, well, this will be lodged in the Library of Congress. With your permission, we can upload it into the next incest Aware newsletter, and you're welcome to share it with all your friends, family, clients, your website, both of them. And I do ask that those that I interview go on and interview to others or share it with other people. If you don't want to interview someone yourself, send them to me and I'll interview them. Yeah. Anything. Anything else that you want to say.

32:53 Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for all the listeners. Thank you for this project. Thank you, Cheryle for all of your time and energy and support that you've put into all of your advocacy work that I know you've been doing for a long time. And it just. It does break the silence, and we're getting there. So thank you so much for all of your support and help on this.

33:21 Thank you. Thank you for speaking up.

33:24 Yeah.

33:25 All right, take care. Thanks.