Cheryle Gail interviews Clair O'Leary incest survivor age 5 by Uncle, 16 by Father. Now THRIVING child sexual abuse Activist.

00:03 Hello, Welcome. I am Cheryle Gail from Brave Voices. We are speaking up to break the silence that has perpetuated childhood sexual abuse for generations. I am 59 years young and I am doing this interview from Los Gatos, California, and I'm going to have you introduce yourself. Hi.

00:25 Thank you. Excited to be here. I'm Claire O'Leary and I am in Donnelly, Idaho.

00:33 And you are 71 years young.

00:38 I am 71 years young.

00:43 And you are here. We're both here voluntarily.

00:48 Yes, absolutely. I'm excited about this. So thank you for this opportunity.

00:54 Absolutely.

00:55 Good to share our voice.

00:58 Absolutely, yes. And let's see, where are we going to start today? Everything that we say is hopefully under the umbrella of Marshall Rosenberg's work of what, what he called non violent communication. And so we're speaking from observations rather than judgments, and we talk about our feelings and we, yeah, that's, you know, we're, we're attempting to not make an enemy image of anyone. We want to hear and learn all perspectives. And so we'll, we'll, we'll go forward with that.

01:43 Okay, sounds good.

01:45 Great. So from an observational point of view, can you start by sharing what the harm was that you experienced as a child?

01:59 Well, I was, I am an incest survivor. Started with my uncle when I was five years old, one time only. And in all honesty, it did not feel like a big deal until I was much older and was actually done with therapy. My second time was with my father and I was 16. And that I knew was incredibly harmful. So. And like so many of us, it seemed like, I don't, I hate to use the word lesser events, but in my mind it felt like lesser events with bosses and a boss's father and just people in general. I felt like I was taken advantage of so many times.

03:23 Also under the age of 18.

03:27 Yes.

03:28 Okay. And our, the part of the reason that we do these interviews is so that we understand how did it happen. So if you're willing to share the details, starting with your uncle because you were five years old, how did it happen?

03:51 Well, my uncle was visiting and my parents left for about 15 minutes. Just said to me, don't go in the bedroom. You'll wake up your sister. So the first thing my uncle does when they walk out the door is he takes me by the hand and he starts to lead me into the bedroom. Now this is my favorite uncle. And I said, no, Mommy and daddy said, don't go in the bedroom. So he takes me in, he says, we'll be quiet and proceeds to molest me.

04:41 And can you define the word molest?

04:46 So he, well, first he unzipped his pants and wanted me to touch him. And then he lay me on the bed and began. Took my underwear off and began to touch me and performed oral sex. I never felt like I was hurt. But in the midst of this, we hear the doorknob turn and my uncle was out of there in a flash, says to me, put your underwear on, come back. Well, I come out of the kit, out of the bedroom, into the kitchen and I of course get in trouble because I was not supposed to go in the bedroom.

05:49 Huh. Okay.

05:51 So he stands there in the kitchen in front, as though he was doing dishes. And I tried to defend myself and I of course get the. Don't talk back. And I really didn't realize it at that time. I was 58 by the time I figured it out. But it was, I, it was what silenced me.

06:32 Uhuh. Yeah.

06:33 As, as a young girl. I mean we just never talked back. We just were, you know, we had to be the perfect little kids who were seen and not heard.

06:48 Yeah.

06:49 And yeah, that was, that was the. Be the beginning.

06:56 Thank you for defining. Because when people hear the word molest, I believe that it's very easy, whatever that means nothing but to hear the details. That you are a five year old child, that he took his pants down and wanted you to touch him and that he told you to take your pants down and he performed oral sex on you. That is something that we can graphically see an adult male and a child and the power over dynamic. So thank you for describing that. I hope that that is much more impactful than just hearing the word molest.

07:44 Very true, very true.

07:47 So thank you for describing that.

07:49 Absolutely.

07:51 And then the next occurrence was with your father when you were 16.

07:56 Correct.

07:59 Are you willing to describe what happened there?

08:02 Yes, absolutely. So actually I've never really shared the whole story, but what, what happened is I had been out with my boyfriend the night before and in all honesty, 16 years old, heavy petting. It's Saturday morning and my father comes in the room to wake me up. And I was reliving the moment. And so I was in a moment of joy when he came in. And I remember hearing my brothers and sisters in the living room watching cartoons. And he opens the door, did not think anything of it, but the words that came out of his mouth. And this is what I've never said before. It smells like sex in here.

09:21 Ah.

09:23 He accused me of having sex.

09:27 Okay.

09:28 And I had not yet and being the good little Catholic girl, you know, we really did not want to. Yeah. So he then climbs into my bed.

09:50 Had he ever, in the past, ever climbed into your bed?

09:54 Never. Never. I had. I had been giving him back massages for quite a while, but, you know, once it got down to the pant line, it was like, that's it. I'm not going any further.

10:16 And these back massages were in your bed or. They were in his bed.

10:21 They were on his bed.

10:23 Yeah, on his bed. And was that in the public? Was your. Was your siblings and mother around?

10:29 They were around. The door was open.

10:32 Okay.

10:32 It was not. It was not sexual.

10:36 Yeah.

10:37 Least. At least to me.

10:39 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

10:42 And so this was quite a shock. He came in and he sat down under the covers, and he reached over and touched my thigh, at which point I felt myself turn into a board. I absolutely froze. And I remember him saying, I just want to know what turns you on. Wow. And I remember. I don't think I said it out loud. I just remember thinking, well, it's sure not you. And then I just. I disappeared. I just. I remembered not allowing myself to feel, to think, to see. Part of me felt like I was floating above. It was a. A classic dissociation. I mean, they're all different, but it was definitely dissociation. And I. I did not even realize that until I was in my 50s.

12:09 Yeah. Yeah. We didn't have words. We didn't know.

12:12 We didn't.

12:13 No. No.

12:15 Yeah. Why would we?

12:16 Yeah. Yeah.

12:18 Why would we? So to this day, that is all I remember, except that once a week on Saturday, I would hear that doorknob turn and I would dissociate.

12:37 Oh. Okay. So once a week on Saturday. So this happened more than once?

12:42 It happened for two years. It happened till I moved away from home.

12:48 Okay. Okay. And are you willing to describe what it is you said that he put his hand on your thigh?

12:57 And after that, I could not describe anything else because I just. I left my body. I have no idea.

13:06 Okay.

13:07 Part of me wonders whether or not I want to recall.

13:13 Huh? Of course. Yeah.

13:15 I know that there was no penetration because when there finally was with a boyfriend when I was in college, there was blood, and. And I definitely had not been penetrated.

13:34 Okay. Okay.

13:36 So I. I honestly am not. I have no idea.

13:41 Yeah. Yeah. And do you have any idea about, like, how long he stayed in the bed with you?

13:48 Oh, it's so interesting, because I was just thinking this. That exact thing. I don't know. It could have been an hour it could have been five minutes.

14:00 Yeah. And where was mom during this time?

14:04 She was still sleeping.

14:06 Ah. And your siblings were always watching cartoons?

14:12 Yep, they were watching cartoons.

14:14 And they were younger siblings.

14:16 Yes.

14:20 And I'm guessing that you were not able to talk to your mom about this?

14:29 I was not. I did not tell a soul until I was 28 years old at his funeral.

14:41 Ah. Can you tell us about that? How, how you found the courage?

14:45 Right, right. And it was, you know, I had opportunities to, where I could have said something. My mother passed away when I was 18. I came home from, from college and for the Christmas holiday and she was ill. She got ill New Year's Eve as a matter of fact. And I came home. My, I had been literally three houses down the street. And when he took her to the hospital, nobody came to let me know. And I, there was a note there when I came, when I came home, basically blaming me. And what had happened that afternoon is because my mother was ill, she asked if I would stay home longer. So I had essentially been to a six month trade school for computer science and came home and my intention was to go back to Denver and find a job. My parents were in New Mexico and I, I told my mother that I would stay until she was better and help caretake and cook and whatnot. And it was not more than a couple hours later when my father approached me. I was, I was peeling carrots, I remember this like it was yesterday and fixing a roast for dinner. And he made some comment, some sexual comment to me and I immediately got triggered and just could imagine that he would want to touch me if I was there much longer. And so I went back to my mom, to the bed, my parents bedroom where my mom was laying down. And I said, I'm sorry, I cannot stay, I have to go back. I just cannot stay. And so it was that night, like truly, I got home like 2:00 in the morning, it was New Year's Eve and we were partying, not even drinking because we just didn't. We probably had a little champagne. I can't even remember to be honest.

18:07 Yeah.

18:08 But anyway, I, I came home and. To this awful, awful note blaming me for the fact that she was in the hospital, blaming me and blaming my boyfriend. She was afraid of my boyfriend. And I'm like, I, I remember thinking more like, you're afraid of my boyfriend if I ever tell him what you've done.

18:37 Yeah. So this note was from your father?

18:40 Exactly, exactly, yeah. So for several weeks I had the neighbors trying to convince Me to stay. I had the priest trying to convince me to stay. It was. And so I. I could have just said, why I can't, but I couldn't. I just absolutely could not say those words.

19:09 Yeah. Yeah.

19:11 And I ended up staying anyway because she. The day she was. The day before she was supposed to come home from the hospital. Something happened at the hospital. She ended up having a stroke and died. Well, she didn't die at that point, but she died a couple months later. And so I ended up staying home. And my greatest fear was that he would want me to be his wife in every way.

19:57 Huh. Yeah.

19:59 And in all honesty, it did not happen.

20:05 Okay.

20:05 He found. He found a girlfriend. Another long story I won't get into. But. And thankfully, I just. He never touched me again.

20:21 Okay. Okay. But you were not able at that point. And for so many reasons, I'm sure your mom's. Huh? Yeah.

20:31 Yeah. And, you know, I've had conversations with my mother where I would ask a question since she's passed, and I would write it down, and one of the questions I always had, and I think I finally did, this had to have been at most four or five years ago. And I asked her, did she know? I always wondered, did she know?

21:13 Yeah. And these are conversations that you had after your mother passed? So they're within yourself. Yeah. Okay.

21:20 Yeah. That are just conversations.

21:23 Yeah.

21:23 In my head.

21:24 Yeah.

21:25 And. And the answer that I received was not until the end.

21:31 Ah.

21:34 And she actually said to me, I sent you my father's girlfriend's name.

21:48 Oh, okay.

21:50 And. And it was just my body, just like. I'm not even sure I can. I can explain it. It was just like my heart skipped a beat, and I could feel in my soul that it was true because it was someone she knew.

22:12 Huh. Okay, so it sounds like that was healing and comforting for you.

22:17 It really was. It really was.

22:19 Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for giving all those details about what happened from. With your uncle and with your father and mostly because of time. 17 minutes remaining. I'm very interested to learn whatever you have to share about the ramifications of having been harmed. Do very. A lot of us drank, had a lot sex at young ages. Was there any negative ramifications? That. And physical challenges. I had massive jaw pain for years. Do you have any ramifications of the actions that. Of what you experienced? That.

23:08 I. I do. I do. I did. I still do.

23:15 Yeah.

23:17 I. I became the consummate. Oh, what's the word? The consummate. Yes. Girl.

23:28 Okay.

23:31 Well, I married. I Married a man who was sexually coercive.

23:41 Okay.

23:42 And was. Was wanting me to sleep with other men while he watched. And long story short, after about five years, I gave in and I got a divorce shortly after.

24:11 Okay. Yeah.

24:12 It was just. I just could not. It was not me. It was.

24:18 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. And becoming the yes girl you attribute to the harm that you experienced as a child.

24:34 Exactly.

24:35 Raised, be seen and not heard. Yeah. And was there any other long term ramifications?

24:47 Physically, I was fine until I actually started healing.

24:56 Huh.

24:57 And I, I went to counseling. I always, I always like to say I went to counseling not because I was sexually assaulted or sexually abused. I went to counseling because my life was a disaster.

25:15 Okay.

25:16 My, my daughter had run away from home like twice now. My husband was an alcoholic, my second husband. And it was, it was just like. I just didn't even know who I was at that point. I had. I was a mess. I was just a mess. So counseling really helped me through the understanding what happened. And I can't even remember how old I was. I was, I was in my 20s, probably mid-20s. And it was. No, I had to be older than that. I had to be older than that. I have no concept of time and age, which I think is pretty common for many of us. I have to literally go back and say, what year was that?

26:31 Yeah.

26:31 To get a good concept of time. So I do know that it was, I was, I was older than that because it was after I had disclosed to my family. So I was in my 30s. Yeah. Like a junior in high school.

26:52 Yeah. Let's. Let's just quickly go back to the disclosing because. Yep. You were. You're going to tell me how it was that you became brave enough to share with your family what had happened to you.

27:07 Yeah. My, my father had passed away and I, of course, went to the, to the funeral. And, you know, I still had. And still have a love for him that you would think would have disappeared, but it was, you know, so many mixed feelings. Yeah.

27:34 Yeah.

27:35 And there were. It was, it was a love hate. We just basically had a love hate relationship.

27:41 Yeah.

27:42 And so all day long I'd been hearing what a wonderful person he was. Oh, yeah. He's. Oh, your dad was such a good father. He was a good provider. He was. Blah, blah, blah. And we're sitting at dinner, it's just the family. We're at a restaurant, and suddenly I'm. I'm hearing more of this, and it's. It's like, I can't take in one more thing.

28:16 Yeah.

28:17 I stood up from my chair, and I just remember screaming, he was not a wonderful man.

28:28 Okay.

28:29 And finally told them what happened to me. And just. I don't even remember what I said. I just remember it felt like the whole restaurant was silent when I said that, because I'm sure the whole restaurant could hear.

28:54 Yeah. There was a lot inside you, and it exploded out.

28:59 It did. It literally exploded out.

29:02 Yeah. So it wasn't necessarily about getting support and help and a logical process. This was. Couldn't.

29:13 It was literally like throwing it up.

29:17 Yeah. How wonderful that you got it out of you. I mean.

29:23 Yeah.

29:24 It happens when we keep it inside.

29:26 Yeah. I mean, my husband knew and, you know, a few really close friends, but my family had no idea. And so to just blurt it out like that.

29:41 Yeah. Yeah. It was the best you could do in the moment.

29:45 Exactly. Exactly.

29:47 And from that experience, I'm curious about two things. How your family received that information. And did any of your siblings also come forward to share about them being harmed?

30:03 You know, I don't remember talking about it again for years until I was actually a survivor's advocate. I was a peer advocate, and I was preparing to really come out on social media. My youngest sister's husband had just passed away, so we had gathered as a family again, and I just decided it was time to talk about it. And that's when I found out that my sisters also had been sexually. Both abused or. My oldest sister says he tried, but I stopped him.

31:10 Wow. Great. Okay.

31:12 My young. Yeah. Thank God. My younger sister was abused by both of my abusers.

31:18 Ah. Ah. I'm so sorry that the cycle continued.

31:29 Oh, I know. I know.

31:34 And are both of those sisters still alive?

31:37 They are.

31:38 Huh. So they, depending on where they're at in their healing journey, may or may not want to share. I'd be so interested to know how your older sister stopped him and how that. How that happened, because so many of us are unable. We just freeze and don't have words or actions to do that, so.

32:02 Right.

32:04 Anyways, it's something to think about.

32:06 I would be. I would be very surprised if either one of them would. Would share. Both of them are very, very quiet about it. And my younger sister still deals with fibromyalgia and quite a few different things. Both my older sister and I have. Have diabetes, which I fully relate to that. I have had two hip replacements, which I also believe has something to do with that. And emotionally, I still deal with getting my voice out. This is. This is the Most complete story I think I've ever given.

33:15 Thank you so much. And. And I do use the word story sometimes, but what I prefer is lived experience.

33:23 Yes. Experience for sure.

33:26 Even though this is being recorded on story. Correct. More. And they are our stories. I just like to. Some stories are made up and this is the truth and nothing but the truth.

33:36 And these are honest to goodness stories.

33:41 Yeah. Yeah. So we do have six minutes left just for our time check. And what would you most like to people to know about the. Your lived experience from perhaps your healing process or what you. Who you are and what you are doing now?

34:05 So when I finally started my healing process, it was still really difficult for me to divulge my abuse by my father. And though my. I had mentioned the early abuse when I was five with my uncle to my. To my therapist and she would try to get me to, to share. But I just, I just never wanted to go there because it just felt like I have all this stuff now that I need to deal with.

34:52 Yeah.

34:52 So it just felt more important for me to do that until. At 58, when I was going through and a process and when I made my decision to start working with survivors, that was when I realized, oh my God, I no longer need to live from. Oh, I forgot the word. I no longer need to live as though I was 5 years old. Yeah. And it was a good 10 year process for me to figure out who I was and how I could help others through this same thing. And I, I started out doing. I mean, there's so much more detail about.

36:04 Yeah.

36:05 What. What I've done. I mean, I've done. Reiki has been incredibly helpful. Movement is one of the things that I did without even realizing how much it was helping me. I was a belly dancer.

36:23 Oh.

36:25 I even did pole dancing. Wow. I just, I. Movement has been huge. Writing, journaling, art for me. Meditation for me. The alternative therapies that I learned while in therapy were probably the biggest helpful things for me. It's just made a huge, huge difference in my life. But finding community within the advocacy world of sexual abuse community has been probably my biggest savior.

37:27 And this is a perfect time with only two minutes remaining that we mentioned incest aware. And that is how we've met each other.

37:36 Yes.

37:38 And. And that is a wonderful place to have community.

37:42 It really is an amazing. Just the women there and the men. Because there are men as well. Yeah, are. It's just, it's an amazing group of people who support each other in personal and business and any way we can as survivors.

38:10 Yes. And just over one minute. Can you share how people can contact you if they would love for you to interview them on archive story Corps and have it Congress?

38:27 Absolutely. You can reach me at [email protected].

38:36 Okay.

38:37 I believe my phone number is even on there. So, yeah, reach out. I would love to. To do this. It. It's been part of my healing journey to interview others in the past. And if you'd like to share your stories in the. In the magazine that I am putting out there on my website, you will find voices heard or go directly to voices heard.

39:18 Fantastic. 43 seconds to go. So we've got voicesheard.com. there's so darn many more questions I would have loved to have asked. And maybe we can document this somewhere else, but I'm wondering if your uncle was your brother, Your. Your father's brother.

39:36 He was. He was my father's younger brother.

39:39 And I wonder if they had both been harmed as children, perhaps.

39:44 You know, it is interesting that you ask that, because I suspect that they were harmed while they were in an orphanage for a few years.

39:57 Okay. Thank you so much, Claire.

40:00 You are so welcome. Thank you for having me.