Hollis Wilder was interviewed by Cheryle Gail Grace, founder of Brave Voices.

00:02 All right. I am Cheryle Gail 37 year, California. Who are you?

00:11 I'm Hollis Wilder, 56 years old, Los Angeles, California.

00:15 Oh, I'm actually 57. I said 47. Six, didn't I?

00:19 I'm sorry, you said 36. I'm like, what? I am so old. This woman is a child.

00:26 I am totally dyslexic.

00:29 Oh, my God, I love you.

00:30 57 years old. I don't know how old I am. Okay, well, we're two peas in a pod. Okay. All right, so let's see. We at brave Voices believe every story matters. We know it takes courage to have conversations about childhood sexual abuse. Today, you are choosing to make it public on the brave Voices community, page five, story core, which may or may not also be used on the Brave Voices website. And this recording will go into the Library of Congress, and you are welcome to use it however you like. You'll get a copy of the audio recording. Willingness to break your cycle of silence will contribute to the reduction fewer children suffering the life altering consequences of childhood sexual abuse. So thank you for participating in this.

01:32 Thank you. Yeah.

01:35 So we are all set. We've got our names and. Yeah, we're all set. We know where we are at. So as I ask you questions, anything you don't want to answer, just let me know.

01:49 Sure.

01:50 And so you were harmed sexually as a child. Can you talk to me about who it was that harmed you and how they were related to you? Or, how did you know them? Or, you know, who were they to you?

02:13 So, my earliest memories are of my mother. My mother was both my sexual abuser and my physical abuser, and my grandfather. That was my maternal grandfather. Right. So. And the way I know this is because I didn't find out until I was probably at the time I was. I want to say I was 15 years sober when I found out, which I thought was really ironic, because all of a sudden, there was a memory, and it was of my mother, and she. I got really hot. I mean, I was in a. In a public place, and I heard another person share a story about sexual abuse. And I had to go outside and get air. And it was. It was pretty graphic. Right from the beginning, my mother put things inside of my body. I don't recall exactly what they were, but I know that they were apparatus. I know that my mother. I remember my mother dressing in front of me. And I don't know if I was made to watch or if I just wanted to watch, but I would sit on the bed and watch her put on her leopard. Always very provocative underpinnings and she was walking around in heels. And then.

03:56 How old were you then?

03:59 I remember I was five. But I. I'm pretty sure the abuse started before that. And I don't know if it went on past five. I'm pretty sure that it all happened early, so. Because my memory of the earlier is me at my grandfather's house, and my mother's not there. She took me there to stay with him for the weekend. And my grandmother didn't. Was dead. So I was. I went there by myself with him. And I remember sleeping in bed with him. I remember he had an erection. And then I remember going into a pink bathroom where I was standing at the sink in. In prop. In my underwear, and he was standing, so my face was in line with his penis, and it was wrecked. But all I see are the pink room, the cotton underpants. And then.

05:10 And how old were you then?

05:12 I'm younger than five, so I want to say I'm probably, like, three. Yeah, I'm three. Okay. And my memory of going and being with my grandfather and the reason. And the reason that I connected that with sexual is because in public, we would be in public, and I'd be sitting on his lap in a rocking chair, and he would rock me, and I'd be sitting on his lap, and he would have an erection. And I was very excited. And so I know that he was sexually inappropriate with me. There were also some things that happened in a trailer that he had. And then in his house, he had a root cellar, which was on a dirt floor. And I've mingled all those memories with the snow of being going down into the cellar where I would hide. And that's where I would see glass jars of preserved items from the family farm. And, yeah, my mom, she locked me in closets, and it was very ritualistic with my mother, so I don't know which implements she was putting inside of me. I know that there was oral sex, and I know that I was made to do things that I didn't want to do. And the reason I know that is because. Because when I was. When I was ten, my brother was five, and I started molesting my brother. And the way in which I molested him. I mean, I was so pre sexualized early, so I was so, like, turned on as a child. I was really beautiful, tiny little blonde, beautiful little body. And I was a really pretty, pretty, pretty child. But when I started to abuse my brother, I was very angry. And I was, you know, all the classic, like, I would hold his mouth shut and tell him that he wasn't allowed to say anything and just pay. Terrify him. But when I would go into his room, where he would be lying on the ground playing GI Joe or whatever, it was always like I went with the intent. It was almost like I was. I was driven by my sexual urge, and I would go into his bedroom and just the arousal of locking the door behind me and then directing him to, you know, put his hands down my pants, suckle my breasts, put his mouth in my vagina, like, making him do it, it was a very angry act. And I was also quite separate from myself with him. I didn't care about him. I didn't. I had just one goal that was to get turned on. And then I would discard him. Like, sometimes I would call him in the night and have him come into my bedroom, and then after I would have my way with him, I would just say, you disgust me, and I tell him to leave. And so where am I learning this stuff from? Right?

09:12 Yeah. Did you ever ask your mother if she was harmed by her father?

09:22 I wrote my mother, you know, once I started having the memories, I wrote my mother a letter, and I wrote everything down, and I. And she denied and denied and denied. And I even told her in the letter, I said, I know that you have had to have been abused by your dad or someone in your family because your father abused me, and you offered me up as a sacrifice every time you took me to the farm. So she. She denies anything having to do with that. I will tell you. During that timeframe, when. When I was under five, so my sister and brother were ten months apart, my mother went into postpartum depression. And I just found this out in 2022. I mean, I found out this bit of information. I knew that she had postpartum. I knew that she went into a mental institution, and I knew that they gave her electroshock treatment. But in December of 2022, I was with her, and we were just talking, and we were talking about my childhood. Now, this is after me doing a lot of work around, inviting my mother back into my life after 25 years. So this is the third time that I've seen her in 25 years. And I introduced my then, you know, 17 and 18 year old children to her. So it's just that she and her husband and I were talking, and she brings up something about when she realized that she was unraveling. I said, what was that like for you? And she said, I just remember you. I don't know where you were, but your sister and brother were in their playpens, and I went down to the basement, and I called my sister in law, and I said, I'm in a bad place, and I need you to come get me. I need to go to a mental institution. So then I started breaking it down with my mom. I said, well, where was I? Like, what was going on before? What happened that made you, like, what was your relationship to me like and everything? And then I realized she said, I don't remember anything. So, of course, you know, there's so much deniability that goes on with abuse. And I didn't get belligerent with her because I've already, you know, years have gone by where I know I'm no longer gonna get my mother to tell me anything. And I also know that I can't get my emotional needs met from my mom and that this is my story. We had also agreed after I brought it up to her again, probably six months before Christmas, she made some comment about something in my childhood, and she said, it wasn't that bad. And I said, what do you mean it wasn't that bad? And then I just absolutely lambasted her with all of it all over again. And it was on the phone, and she went completely crazy. But she stayed on the phone, and she let me tell her what I said, and that was really remarkable. She was crying. She was. How dare you? How could you? And I just said, you know, you're not the victim. Like, this is what happened to me. This is what you did to me. These are the things that you did. She wanted specifics. So now jump to 2022. Christmas, asking her. And she didn't remember. And I, for the first time, found out that when you get electroshock treatment, your memory goes with it. So very convenient for her. But what we decided, after there was a pause for about a week, we decided. I called her and I said, you know, I want to have a relationship with you, and I'm willing to accept that. We have two different ideas about what my childhood was like, and I want to still talk to you about all of these things, and I want to talk to you about what it was like for me as a child and what it was like for you as a child. And then she's on board for it. So I started interviewing family members, and I'm getting down to some abuse and some mental illness and some really rich history, which is great. And she's there. Hmm.

14:04 Gosh, maybe. Maybe you'll be able to interview her on Storycorps.

14:08 I would love.

14:10 Yeah. So you still haven't heard for sure if she was harmed by her father? You don't know that yet?

14:20 No.

14:20 No. Okay.

14:21 Says that her grand. Her grandfather, they were very good friends, but he was mean and he was a drunk. And when she talks about things in the family and that other people talk about things, it's like they all just button up. It's like, oh, he was just this, or he was just that. Well, that's code.

14:47 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. And do you happen to know if your grandfather had been harmed sexually, a child?

14:59 I don't know.

15:00 Okay. Okay. And were either one of them under any kind of mind altering substance when they harmed you?

15:10 My grandfather didn't drink, so I would say no. And my mother. So she was taking, you know, like, the drugs of the seventies that the ladies took, you know, the amphetamines to lose weight and that kind of thing. But what later came out, and this didn't come out until I was 46, and I had a lot of very stressful things going on in my life, and I. My therapist said, you know, my hair was falling out. My marriage was falling apart. I had been on tv for many years. I was a successful chef, personality, cookbook author. All of these very successful things were happening, and I was on tour, and when I came back, I felt very ill. And my doctor said, you know, we're in a hospital as you, because you have double kidney infections. And so I had a time. I really had some time to pause, and then that's when I decided I wanted to get the divorce. And when I did, all these things started to unravel, and so my hair was falling out. I was absolute basket case. And she said, I want to put you on an SSR. I want you to go and go on an anti anxiety med. This is a therapist, not a psychiatrist. I said, oh, where do I get that? And I'm sober at this point a long time. And I said, well, you know, I don't really like to go on anything. So then she said, we'll just go on. This will be very low dose. So I just went to my gynecologist, and she put me on a five milligram dose, and within two weeks, I was 51 50. I went absolutely. I had a psychotic break. I went absolutely crazy. Absolutely crazy. And I later found out that if you are predisposed for bipolar and there are two types, there's bipolar a, which you're born with, and bipolar b, which you develop. Because I'm 46 at the time, and so the anti anxiety medicine, if you're predisposed for the bipolar, will snap you into manic and episode. So then you're now bipolar. So my mother doesn't admit that, but that's what she has, and that's also part of what I'm finding out about the family. Hmm. My sister, who's six years younger than I am, at the exact time that I had it, she became bipolar, and she's now battling homelessness, and she was also abused, and she's just a jumble of very difficult time for her. But we. It's pretty extraordinary how it all just kind of comes together.

18:28 Yeah. I would love to interview every homeless person.

18:32 Yeah.

18:33 You know, I mean, there. There is a reason, right? There's. I'm so sorry about your sister.

18:41 She's doing well, though.

18:44 And how about your brother? How did he.

18:47 My brother knows everything. As a matter of fact, when I got sober in 19, 8, April 28 of 1986, I got sober. I'll be celebrating 36 years of sobriety this year. And so part of what I did is, you know, part of the amend process is to. So I went to him, and I told him, and he was really grateful that I did, but he. At that point, he'd already experienced, you know, abuse with a childhood friend that was a boy. His sexuality was very clouded. He had a very difficult time trying to figure out. So what I did to him was incredibly impactful at such that. I mean, he was five, so, you know, same thing for me. And we talk about it now. We've always talked about it. Like, we've always. It's always been transparent for us, but it really. It's harmed him. He doesn't have the same kind of recovery around it that I do.

20:14 And do you know if his grandfather. Your grandfather ever harmed him?

20:21 He never told me that anybody else did.

20:25 Family friend who was a little bit older. Yeah. Mom, brother, sister. Three other interviews to happen.

20:35 Yes. Wow.

20:37 Okay, so I want to go to the question of. So. So would you say that the kidney infections, the hair falling out, what.

20:48 What.

20:49 What health challenges, if any, have you experienced tribute to having been harmed?

20:56 So many. So many health issues that I've attributed to being of harm. For. First of all, I couldn't give birth. I'm Veronica, and when they went in laparoscopically to look at me, I had a collapsed fallopian tube and one ovary on opposite sides. So I tried to do UTi. I mean, not UTI. That's a urinary tract infection. I tried to do in vitro and from. It's so interesting because from a very young age, I knew that I wouldn't, I would probably die in childbirth. From a very young age, that's really pretty extraordinary. And then when I tried, I couldn't have babies, so I adopted. And this is the story that is. I mean, it is the most extraordinary God there's babies come from. Goddess, whatever God you believe, universe, whatever you want, a goddess, whatever you want to say, they're created in a different. They're just created. And then those babies know exactly where they want to go, where they want to show up. Right. So this birth family comes into. My husband and I had been trying to get adopt for a couple years and in floats. After two and a half years of trying, this beautiful woman and her boyfriend, and now you paint a fairy tale. You don't tell her that you've been abused. You don't give her this backstory because you want the babies and you want to create this amazing fairy tale for them where your child is going to be just rejoiced every day. When she started telling me about her story, it was identical to mine. Identical. And so do you know what that means? That means that I broke. We broke the chain. I have Georgia, who is my eldest. She'll be 19 in April. And then ten months after Georgia was born, she called and said, we're pregnant again. And I have Whitman, their biological siblings, the same birth parents. I mean, this is spirit.

23:22 Mm hmm.

23:23 This is way bigger.

23:26 Yeah. And are you still in touch with her?

23:30 Yes. So we. I could reach out to her through her boyfriend. I mean, relationships are complicated, right?

23:37 Yeah.

23:38 She's lovely. She has had a tortured, tortured life, and I know she's just such a sweet and lovely woman. And I could get to her. I'm not sure if she's alive. The children have met her.

23:54 Okay.

23:56 They know about her. Yeah. It's beautiful.

24:01 Wow, that's. Yeah. Very amazing. And so that was one of the first health challenges that was due to having been harmed.

24:13 Oh, for sure.

24:15 And not being able to carry a child. What other health challenges?

24:27 Well, the kidney issues in my family are hereditary, which is very interesting because you're a body worker. So you know what the kidneys participate, how they participate in the body and the functioning of everything. And so it's. One of the signs of abuse is kidney issues. I would say, other than, you know, I lived, it's at such a high frequency as a person who, I guess now I would say that I was always in hypomania, which is living and functioning in a very high state of, you know, frequency and the genetics of the, of the bipolar. I don't know that that really has anything to do with the, the sexual aspect of it. I mean, I have back issues.

25:34 But.

25:34 Those are, you know, I was in a car accident. Okay. Nothing else, really, that I can think of.

25:44 Yeah. Thank you. And, you know, at any time, was there any adult that you told what your mother or grandfather had done to.

25:54 You.

26:00 Or a friend, any human being? Did you tell anybody? Did you try to tell anybody?

26:07 Hmm. I really don't remember.

26:18 Okay.

26:21 I don't remember. But I will tell you that I abused and was, and participated in abuse with a lot of children my age. And I'm so grateful that that left. It's really extraordinary that I didn't develop a proclivity for children as I grew up. I am so grateful.

26:52 But as a child, you harmed other people other than your brother?

26:58 Yes. So I harmed his friend. Same age.

27:06 And how much younger was he than you?

27:09 They were five years younger than I was.

27:10 Tend to five years younger. Okay.

27:16 And then I was the babysitter for some girls on the street, and I know that I sexually abused them.

27:27 And where was this? Was this in California?

27:31 Excuse me? No, this is in Michigan.

27:35 Oh, Michigan. Okay. And what city?

27:41 Saginaw, Michigan.

27:43 Saginaw?

27:44 Yeah.

27:45 Okay. And can you talk a little bit about when you were being harmed? What were some of the feelings, sensations in your body? Have any memories of. Many of us freeze, go cold, hold our bodies very tight. Do you have any body memory of.

28:25 I always remember the feeling of suffocation. Suffocation. And I know I left my body because I was flying at a young age. I always flew. Oh, I was highly dyslexic. That was another thing. To answer your question about side effects of the abuse. And I. Oh, here's another one. I was a bed wetter until I was 13. And the abuse that I suffered around the bedwetting was. And the neglect around it. The abuse and the neglect. My beatings were more intensified because of that. I spent a lot of time going to school. I mean, I just walked around soaking wet. And I. I was hyperactive. And from a young age, I was put on Ritalin. But my mother says that I used to just vibrate and pee like a dog. I mean, like, vibrate and pee like it. Like a scared animal. And I was. I was a petrified child. Um, so interesting how memories get lodged, unlodged. So what were you asking me about that made me go back to the side effects of the abuse.

30:05 Uh, body sensations if.

30:08 Oh, yeah, the suffocation. But you know what else? I was. I. I was turned on. It always felt good. Just dirty. Like, dirty suffocated. I was very. I mean, I can even tap into it right now. Just that. That emptiness, that lonely, that, like, you're inhibiting. You're inhabiting your body, but it's like, not. Not even here, just nowhere. Just.

30:59 So would you call it disassociating completely?

31:02 Yeah, all the time. Probably spent my entire childhood doing that, because other. My sister and brother remember stories, and I don't remember anything. I remember the abuse. I remember the beatings. I was, like, sacrificially beaten by my mother. Like, she had me stand, you know, up against a wall in a four point cold and then just would. Would beat me. It was always very ritualistic with her.

31:38 And, um, so, as you described going on, Kurt, your brother, can you imagine that that's what your mother was doing to you?

31:50 Oh, for sure. 100%. All exactly the same things. And part of bipolar is the extreme religiosity or sexuality. Very, very highly sexualized. Those are the two places that, when you're in a man in mania, it's where you go.

32:28 Can you imagine any way or anyone that, like, what would you have needed to. Been able to ask for help or to tell somebody or to tell them to stop or.

32:53 Well, I would have needed my mother to acknowledge, you know, my. Anytime I brought anything up or questioned anything. I don't recall asking her anything about abuse or anything like that, but my mother had very long red fingernails. It was the seventies, and they were really long. And she would just grab my face and clutch it and dig her claws into my face and say, you have nothing to say, and what you have to say is not important, and shut up.

33:35 Wow.

33:37 That was my childhood. Don't you dare. Don't you dare. Stop. Stop it right now. No. So I was. That's how I was raised. No voice. And then she was so cruel to me. She would, you know, little girls want to be with her moms, and they put makeup on, and you're so pretty, mommy and everything. And she would look right at me in the mirror while she's putting her makeup on and in her, you know, sexy lingerie, and she was so gorgeous. Black hair, olive skin, green eyes. Just a gorgeous woman. And she would look at me and she'd say, you're never gonna be beautiful.

34:27 Wow.

34:29 You're not a natural beauty. You never will be. And you'll have to figure out how to use makeup. She just recently told me that, too.

34:42 Wow. Wow.

34:44 She's not even aware. Maybe she is. I just find it to be so. How. Wow.

34:53 So, you know, you told me earlier prior to this recording that you found for. So how could you possibly forgive a human being that harms you sexually? Was physically abusive? Who was verbally abusive? Who allowed you to go be with your grandfather? Who was abusive? I'm just. I would love some concrete observable, like, how does that happen? How. How did you get there?

35:33 Well, it was 25 years of getting there, so I just eviscerated my mother for my life. I didn't speak to her. I didn't. I threw her letters away. I didn't have anything to do with her at all. And my father, five years ago, six years ago, he was dying of alcoholism, and no one in my family wanted to have anything to do with him. And he lived in Rhode island, and it was cold, the winter was coming, and I knew he would just die alone by himself. So I moved him in with me in California. And I remember saying to my AA sponsor, you know, what good is all the sobriety and recovery that I have in my life if I can't use it to help my father? You know, my father stood by and lied by omission because he knew what was going on and never said anything. And I know that because I asked him straightforwardly, and he was practicing alcoholic and homosexual and just doing his own. Having his own path. And so. But I wanted to get over forgiveness because I wanted, when I stand at the gravesite, I do not want this abuse to continue. So how am I going to unravel this? So my father was the first part of that, and I got to really go through a bunch of things with my dad and really work on, you know, forgiveness is not something that you do immediately. In my experience. It's developmental, so it takes. It's over a period of years, and so much of it has to do with not so much. I mean, yes, there's the forgiving yourself, but it's also the. The nooks and crannies of judgment toward other people, distrust of other people, like, so all of the systems of. Of being a human being break down, and then when they break down and they keep breaking up down. And my life was unmanageable in many different ways. Even though I was recovering and not drinking, I had to dig deeper and go to a different place. And so when my dad died, I swore that I would not. I'd never introduced my mother to my children and that she would never be able to rely relationship with me. And then when he died, I started looking at that in a different way for myself. It was all for me, not for anybody else. And I had also done the sexual healing journey many times where, you know, you, I mean, this is the long form of how I got to forgiveness. But, you know, I had to, like, work on figuring out how to discover myself because sexually, that had been taken away from, by my mother and my, from me, by my mother and my grandfather. So I just kept doing the work I kept. And then when my life was my relationship, life was difficult, both with men and women, with myself and with my children. And I, you know, I never once wanted to harm my children. Nothing like that ever came up. But I had my relationships had holes in them, and I wanted to figure out how I could repair them. And so I started doing the work of Byron Katie.

39:16 Mm hmm.

39:17 And, you know, what she does is she questions the first thought, and the dismissal of the abuse is not something that gets dismissed. And I don't question whether or not it happened or not. But what I've come to understand is very straightforward, which is so many of us are abused, and it has been happening since the beginning of time. And also once I was able to work through the emotional aspect of it and realize that my mother was never, ever, I would never, ever, ever get my emotional needs met for my mom, I had to really figure out how I was going to do that for myself. And someone said to me, yes, you know, those things happened. And of course, they're horrific. They happen to so many of us. And that doesn't make it right. Doesn't make it right. It doesn't take away what happened. Yeah, but I have to take the higher ground for myself. And so I had to get to a place first where I could say I meet my own emotional needs. And the way that I started having a relationship with my mother, I was writing this book, and I'm writing a horror story. And in the horror story, it's basically my childhood. So I thought, I'll use my relationship with my mom and I'll let her think that I want to be close to her, but I'm going to ask her about her life. And in so doing that, I'm going to get the answers for why she did what she did to me and what was done to her. Well, guess what? She wasn't telling me anything. So I started, I started asking her about her life instead of telling her what my life. I just asked her, like, so tell me, what were your favorite memories and what did you do when you were a child? And instead of going after her with the agenda that I wanted answers about my own sexual abuse trauma, I let go of that agenda, and I developed a relationship with my mother. And now I have this trust with her, where I was then able to say to her, I agree that we can have two different opinions about what my childhood was like. I want to have a relationship with you because I need that relationship for myself. And I'm also ready to look at you like a human being now. This was 25 years. 25 years. So.

42:10 Yeah, took. It took a long time. It takes what it takes, right? Wow. So it sounds like the sexual hurt healing journey. The Byron, Katie, the recovery. Any. Any other modalities that were vitally important for your healing?

42:33 Yeah. Isn't it amazing how you think of these things not in sequence? I love talking about this. So there was triangulation in my first marriage. I got married when I was young, and I had, um. He was never faithful to me. So I basically triangulated my relationship with my. My mother and my father. Like, my. I just triangulated. That's one of the things that you do when you're an abused victim. And so what happened in my marriage was I was married only for two and a half years, but it ended because he was never faithful to me. And I called my mom. This is before I knew about the abuse. So this is. I'm only about. I don't know, I'm a few years sober at this point. I call my mom, and I tell her what's going on, and she says that my. She didn't tell me over the phone. She said, you know, you need to get on an airplane and come and fly and see me in Michigan. So I went and saw her, and then she said that she knew that my sister and my husband had been having an affair for the entire time that we'd been married for two and a half years. She admitted that she knew about it. All the while, I'm having a relationship with my mom, and then here I am at my mom's house, and one morning she comes. This was the beginning of me realizing something wasn't right with my mom. And she. We had breakfast together, and she looked at me and she said, when you think about you, Michael was my husband and your sister having sex. Does it turn you on? And I knew something was terribly, terribly wrong, and I left. I felt unsafe immediately.

44:46 Yeah.

44:46 Yeah, it's like, what is happening? I didn't talk to her about it. I was like, oh, my God, I'm suffocating, I'm stiff, I can't breathe. I need to get out of here as fast as I possibly can. And then I talked to her a little bit, but then that was kind of, it all kind of happened around the same. Just everything started unraveling from there. But it's remarkable that I have a relationship with her. That's goddess. That's. That's. Yeah.

45:24 I can't believe that. That is already 45 minutes. It says you only have a few minutes left. Is there anything we're recording. That's all there is to it that you want to end this session with that you would want the world, the Library of Congress, anything to know.

45:55 Oh, my gosh. I just want all the littles, the littles out there, the little girls, the little boys, the. I know that you're going to listen to this before you, before someone allows you to listen to it. You're going to find your way because we live in an extraordinary time where you get access to everything and you're going to hear this. And you littles are the ones that are going to liberate the future of this issue. And it's really extraordinary that you get to do that because you know what it sounds like, you know what it looks like. You have seen it. You hear it on the other side of the bedroom wall or I chatter amongst friends. You are not going to put up with this. You're going to make a difference. And it's going to unlock, just in the same way that I've done this with my mother, whether she knows it or not, it's going to unlock the elders who have abused us, who were abused and who continue to abuse because you have to teach them what they don't know. And it's amazing you get to do that. And so if this has happened to you, it's painful. It is. But I can honestly tell you it's a gift. And it's a gift because I'm right here given the gift and you're out there hearing the gift. So great.

47:46 Thank you. Thank you. That might have to be the next. It's a gift because, boy, will that be interesting to get our heads around. Right? Maybe we'll do the next recording on that. Thank you so much for your.

48:03 Oh, my gosh, you're so welcome.

48:07 Yeah. Gratitude, gratitude, gratitude. And we will continue this conversation, but I'll just now, and then we will go back to zoom and have okay, great. Thank you.

48:22 You're welcome.