Trauma is NOT a life sentence! HOPE inspires Action. Cheryle Gail interviews Rachael Grant

00:03 Ah, 40 minutes. I thought it was 45. Hello, I'm Cheryle Gail from brave voices, and I am here voluntarily 59 years young, interviewing Rachel Grant. Welcome.

00:20 Hi, Cheryle Thanks for having me. I'm so glad to connect and get to have a little conversation with you today.

00:26 Yeah. And you are 47 years young.

00:29 I am.

00:30 We're both here voluntarily sharing our lived experiences of having been harmed sexually as children because we are breaking the cycle of silence that has perpetuated childhood sexual abuse for generations.

00:46 Yeah. Cheers to that. Yeah.

00:50 So we both believe that by sharing the observable facts. So what was recorded by a video or audio? So that's how we're going to share our story. So that it's observable and seeable and hearable.

01:11 Yeah. It's so important. It's so important. It's great to have this platform, and it's great that, you know, we're seeing more and more people being able to come forward and share their stories and yay, technology and all the ways that we're so much more interconnected and just, you know, more and more breaking the taboo of talking about, you know, these experiences.

01:32 Yeah. Awesome. Fantastic.

01:35 All right.

01:36 And we are connected via incest.

01:38 Aware. Yeah. Yeah.

01:40 And this, this interview will go into the Library of Congress under the brave voices community page.

01:47 I love that.

01:48 Yeah. Right. So let's start from the beginning. The who, what, where, when, how.

01:59 Yeah.

01:59 Being a child.

02:01 Thank you. Well, yeah, you know, at this point in my journey, I guess it's been going on 17 years that I've been, you know, in a world where I'm talking about and telling my story a lot. And so it's interesting, you know, each time I come back around to share, you know, my experience, you know, sometimes different things come through. But the heart of the matter is I grew up in Oklahoma, and when I was five years old, my grandfather came to live with our family. And, you know, he's getting up there, getting elderly, needed a little more care. And I was the youngest of three. My brother and my sister were, you know, nine and eight years older than me. So I was kind of this outlier. And the family and, you know, had some, you know, hanging out with my siblings. But for the most part, I was, I felt like an only child, sort of. So when my grandfather came to live with us, I was actually pretty thrilled about that. I thought, okay, you know, captive audience. Right. You know, and he'll hang out with me and he'll play and he really did, you know, like, I would come home from school and I'd go right to his room, and we would hang out and watch tv. And we spent a lot of time sitting out on the front porch swing and just, you know, kind of watching the world go bye. So my grandfather, for me, really became a very close kind of companion. And I also liked kind of doing the nurturing things, like, you know, taking him his cereal at night or whatever. And. And all that carried on until about ten years old. And one day we were sitting out on the front porch swing, and he started to kind of grip and grab my breast, which was barely their breasts, but still I had a little bit of knowledge. I mean, this is Oklahoma in the eighties, so there wasn't a lot of, you know, education about body safety or safe touch or any of these kinds of things. But I had a little sense of enough to know that maybe he shouldn't be touching me there. So I started to kind of wiggle.

04:01 I'm just gonna interrupt. So it was a kind of an intuitive, instinctual knowing this just.

04:06 Yeah, just felt uncomfortable. You know, I remember thinking, oh, he just doesn't realize where he's touching me because I was very cuddly. I mean, I was always up on, you know, his lap, my dad's lab, my mom's lap. I, you know, I love being close and comfy. And so we would. He always wore this kind of orange, fuzzy sweater that I really liked, and so I would snuggle into that, you know, and. And, yeah, so I just thought it was, oh, we're snuggling. But, oh, he just, you know, moved his hand in the wrong place. Yeah. And when he gripped ahold of me, though, and kind of wouldn't let me move, then things took a turn as far as how that was feeling, and it got scary. And I didn't know that then, but, you know, looking back, I can see that I dissociated some, you know, kind of just checked out of the situation and don't have a lot of.

05:01 A little bit.

05:02 Say that again.

05:03 Your body freeze?

05:05 Yeah, just. Yeah, exactly. Kind of, you know, just feeling kind of floaty, not really there. And. And then eventually, I kind of snapped back to it, and I was able to hop up and get off of the porch swing and get away. And that first time, I ran to my parents bedroom, actually, and there's this little space between the bed and the wall. And I just kind of crawled in there and curled up there and, you know, just overwhelmed with feeling confused, feeling so immediately how it happens. Like it's my fault. What did I do? To cause that, like, all of those thoughts already. Yeah. I remember feeling very alone in the moment, kind of wondering, like, doesn't anybody hear me crying? Why aren't they checking on me? And kind of quickly drew a conclusion. Well, I guess, you know, I'm on my own, or I'm gonna have to handle this myself, you know, kind of a thing. And so let me just.

06:07 Why didn't they hear you crying? Was it a big.

06:13 They might not have been home. They might have been in a different room. I might not have been as crying as loud as I thought I was. Right. And this is. I mean, just in the work that I do, such a great illustration of the ways in which we develop narratives and beliefs and ideas. Right. So very quickly. And then that can then inform and influence our life, you know, because I carried on in that way throughout my life in a lot of ways. I'm on my own. I've got to do this myself. Right. Don't ask anybody for help. And so actually looking back on that experience and kind of unpacking that and noticing, well, exactly these things, like, maybe they didn't hear me or, you know, even say silly things, like, maybe they'd been abducted by aliens in that moment. They weren't even there. But to help me get perspective about that. Yeah. To release the attachment to that old story, that old belief. Yeah. And, you know, time goes on, and so the abuse is continuing. It's escalating. The memories are. Some of them are very crystal clear. Some of them are vague, which we know is extremely common based on what's happening in the brain when we're experiencing trauma. The hippocampus is not, you know, jotting down all the information. And so we have gaps in memory or non chronological memory, but, you know, there were various moments throughout the time of him abusing me that certainly informed and shaped the way that I felt about myself and the way this. That I thought about others or even broad, you know, ideas like my needs, my desire, you know, being good, etcetera. The abuse ended when one day my mom walked by the window that looked out onto the porch swing, and she saw him touching me, and so she burst out onto the front porch, like only a mama bear can do and snatched me away. And I. I remember sensing her anger and sensing her fear, and, you know, she was kind of yelling at me, like, get inside right now. And my young self, my child self, you know, interpreted that through this place of, like, oh, gosh, like, am I the one who's in trouble here? Like, is she upset with me. And, you know, again, years later, unpacking that, being able to get perspective about her just being scared and, you know, wanting to get me away from him. And my mom and my dad had him moved out of the house very quickly. He was gone and living with my aunt. And I had a few more interactions with him, none of which where he was able to, you know, abuse me, but just uncomfortable. Right. Just kind of being around him. And then shortly thereafter, he died. And so that was that.

09:01 And was there any discussion? Did your mom talk through or get you help at the moment, you know, after?

09:13 Yeah. So when the dust had settled a little bit, my mom had me go to a counselor. And I remember feeling just really uncomfortable. It was a male counselor, you know, I'm eleven ish, twelve ish at this point, you know, pre adolescent, you know, preteen young girl and sitting in a room by myself with this guy did not feel comfortable at all. And the only thing I recall that this person ever said to me was asking questions about what I was wearing. Why, why did you wear tank tops so much? It was just such a, that classic, like, are you kidding me? Kind of thing. And, and I just started running away into the woods so they couldn't find me. And they eventually just kind of gave up trying to get me into the, into therapy about it. You know, they put a foot forward on it. But it wasn't until years and years and years later, actually, Cheryle when I was in my mid twenties, I was having a conversation with my mom, and I had said something about the abuse and she said, well, you know, you know, these things, you know, it's terrible when these things happen. Thank goodness it was just that one time. And I thought, mom, what? And it just, it just for me, Claire, like, oh my gosh, we're holding. What's so very different, right? She thought that was it, that was the one time that was that. And it just kind of speaks to the ways in which we didn't talk about what had happened. And it wasn't really a trying to like brush it under the rug feeling or like I couldn't talk about if I wanted to talk about it. Um, in fact, like, when I wrote my book and my guidebook for my program and my work, my mom never gave me any grief. My dad died when I was 18, so he was, he's already out of the picture. But, you know, there was always love and acceptance around that. But we just carried on, I guess, as people do sometimes. But certainly the impact of that abuse was not gone. And it took me until I was, you know, 1920 to really face the fact that this abuse was impacting me still and hadn't been resolved. And that's, you know, what really spurred me to start facing it and starting to get, you know, better help and start to kind of unravel what had happened to me.

11:47 So did you at that time, during that conversation, let your mom know that it, and how was that received?

11:55 Yeah, I think she was just sad. She was just sad and, you know, just said, oh, gosh, I just, I didn't know. I didn't know.

12:04 Yeah, how beautiful that she could share herself that way. And she never disclosed that he had ever harmed her as a child or.

12:15 Yeah, it's kind of wild. I mean, you know, he was elderly, you know, he's in his nineties, you know, when this is happening. There was some mention along the way. It's all very vague but of like, oh, maybe this was like dementia or Alzheimer's, but I don't think so because there were other things that he said when my mom confronted him, like, you know, oh, she enjoyed it. Like that kind of crap, you know, that, not that. And I, I always did like, wow, okay, so we don't have any record of him, you know, hurting anybody else. Nobody else comes forward when this, you know, because certain, you know, family members, the sisters and brothers, my uncles and aunts knew what was going on, but nobody ever said to me, oh, you know, he did that to me too, or, we know that that's happened with other people. So fingers crossed I'm the only one, quite honestly, you know, that would be best case scenario.

13:17 Okay, so, mom, never. I'm hearing your Oklahoma accent. My parents were from Oklahoma, Mississippi, so it's sweet.

13:27 I like, right on with you. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'm very thankful for my country roots. I think there's a lot there that has helped me through the years to kind of come back to feeling, you know, grounded and connected and, you know, keeping things, you know, down to earth and for myself and in a process of trying to unravel stuff that's so layered and so complex. And I think also like, yeah, my mom and dad both had, you know, great senses of humor. And so that's also been just such a huge piece of the puzzle for me is, you know, finding the lightness in the dark. And, you know, in my work now with survivors, they sometimes walk away going, gosh, I didn't think I was going to be laughing so much going through this program about healing from sexual abuse. Right. But why not? I mean, we've had a enough sorrow, so let's. Let's find the laughter where we can.

14:22 So I'd love to hear how you got from that 20 year old to where you are now as far as the most helpful steps along the way for your healing and growth.

14:35 Yeah, well, once I got to the point of, like, okay, I've got to face this, you know, I really dove into doing some therapy and beginning to acknowledge the impact that the abuse was having on my life started, you know, a relationship. I was my first year in college, first in my family to go to college. So these were, you know, big milestones. But then at the same time, you know, I'm dating this person and, like, all the stuff is coming out. Like, I don't understand boundaries and, like, I can feel kind of the neediness that, the unhealthy neediness and. Yeah, and even just the insecurities and the anxieties that were coming up and internal thought systems, you know, beating myself up up, not believing I was worthy or deserving. And, you know, it was reflected to me, like, you know, I shared about the abuse and other experiences that I've had along in my journey, and he really encouraged me along the lines of getting help.

15:41 How lovely to have somebody that is supportive.

15:47 Yeah. Yeah, that's right. And so, you know, I kind of get moving, but there's this thing, you know, I think when we start in this process, it's kind of. I often describe it like a big ball of spaghetti, and, like, you pull one thread and you're like, oh, I'll work with that. And then boom, it's like, there's that thing and there's that piece, and there's that piece. And so, you know, I'm starting to feel feelings that I had suppressed and repressed for a very long time. I was still very dysregulated, easily triggered. And my partner, you know, was young, too. We're young, right? We're in our twenties. What do we know? But, you know, he's dealing with his own stuff, and, you know, this relationship starts to devolve, starts to become more and more toxic, starts to become abusive physically and verbally and. And so things kind of continue to unravel, but we're not wise enough at that time to know what we really need to do, and we just kind of keep going with it. It's until ten years later, like, I look up and go, oh, my gosh. And we've spent, you know, three years of that married. And. But we hit a point where it's like, this is just, no, this is not working anymore. And this is really unhealthy, and we don't know how to right the ship. And so we divorced. And that was really a pivotal moment. And I think for most people in a healing process, you hit something, either it's a death or a loss of a job or a relationship or just something. You get sick of something enough. And I remember sitting in my new apartment, and all I had at that moment was, like, a sleeping bag and a lamp. Like, woof, man, life is pretty stripped away here. And all I have is to sit with myself and reflect on my life. And I honestly felt really scared about my future because I thought, I, gosh, like, if I just keep repeating these patterns, like, I've been in therapy and I understand why this is happening, and. And I get it. And I have all. I often describe this as the street smart or the book smart moment of healing, where you've read all the books and, you know, the lingo and blah, blah, blah, but yet something's not clicking to change how you're actually showing up or feeling. And that's exactly where I was. And so I remember just very clear voice, you know, internal voice, being like, Rachel, you've got to get your shit together, like, right now, or you are just going to spend the rest of your life suffering and white knuckling it and surviving. Quite honestly, that was a key turning point for me. And that's when I really started to study the neuroscience of trauma. I got into doing my masters in counseling psychology. I was working, this was 2007, so I was, you know, working with some other women and leading kind of a healing group. Like, what did I know? But I was like, I think I've got, like, some pieces of the puzzle here, you know? And. And so, bit by bit, you know, my lens really changed. And I started thinking about what is beyond surviving, which is the name of my program, my business. That's the intention. Like, there has to be something more than just surviving life. And so I started tackling all these areas in my life, Cheryle where I felt stuck and hurt and inadequate or disempowered or immature and said, okay, well, I'm gonna. I'm gonna look at the whys, you know, I'll try to get to some of the driving forces there. But the main question I'm trying to answer every single time is, what do I do about it? How do I actually shift that? How do I actually change that? Is it a mindset said, is it a skill? Is it a tool? Is it. What is it? And just through kind of using myself as a guinea pig and then this group of women who were so kind to be my guinea pigs in the early days, you know, bit by bit, you know, took those steps to where I was able to, you know, really process and integrate the trauma so it stopped being something that felt really present. And then I grew up a lot, you know, gained skills and tools and. And I really worked on my sense of self and. And then turned that around. And then that's what I do now is, right? Walking with other people who are on that journey and wanting to, they're kind of at that enough is enough stage, and they're ready to, like, look at it through that lens of what do I actually do to reclaim my life and live more in my empowered selfdevelop, in my day to day, rather than in this historical self.

20:34 Beautiful. Thank you. So can you talk a little bit about the neuroscience and how that helped you?

20:43 So when I was doing my, getting my masters in one of my courses, they assigned Dan Siegel's book the Developing mind. And as I was reading through that and beginning to understand how neuronal pathways are formed and how, know, we take in data, and then the brain kind of classifies it as signaling danger or not danger. Very simple, very low level. Right? So basic. But that, like, the way that my brain was processing data was essentially like, everything is danger. Everything is danger. Everything is danger because of the trauma and the chaos. Like, going into a home and not knowing, like, is this person going to hurt me today? Or is it going to be like, nothing today? Or, you know, and so it just became really fascinating for me and also understanding the impact of the. On memory because that helped fill in and explain some of that anxiety about, like, why don't I remember these parts? Does that mean it didn't happen? Or, like, causes you to second guess yourself sometimes and, like, maybe I'm making all this up, or. But then as I started to understand how the brain is impacted by trauma and memory is impacted by trauma, for me, the critical shift that happened in that moment is I began to understand that my brain and my nervous system had been injured, and so it stopped being this. Rachel, you're a mess. Rachel, you're just so broken. Rachel, what's wrong with you? Get your shit together already. And I started thinking about it, like, well, if I had a broken leg, first of all, I wouldn't shame myself for that. Maybe. I mean, sometimes people do, like, oh, I'm an idiot. Why did I do it? But no, for most part, we don't, like, shame ourselves for that. And, you know, I would go and the doctors would know, like, okay, this is the injury now. This is. These are the steps that we take, you know, to heal that injury, and it would heal. And so that mindset shift was amazing because I was like, okay, trauma is not a life sentence. Despite some of the very bad messaging I had gotten from prior therapists that it was, and I was forever going to be kind of broken and messed up and blah, blah, blah. And I thought, no, no, no. If I can heal a bone, I can heal the brain, I can heal the nervous system. And of course, research and sciences prove to support that. And so it just helped me to take that kind of approach. Like, how do I heal my brain? How do I heal my nervous system?

23:17 And what is it that you found most helpful to heal your nervous system?

23:25 Well, it's interesting because I really started through what are called top down strategies. So my first lens was CBT, or cognitive behavioral therapy. That really resonated with me. Being able to step back and change those neuronal pathways and change the belief systems, gaining perspective and then layering in some of the more bottom up strategies that are body based and doing some of the somatic experiencing. It's kind of like, I think. I think what's really true is that everybody has what I would call, like, their main door of entry into healing, like a main modality that really clicks and resonates with them. And then we kind of sprinkle in the others because they're all. They all bring a little something to the table. You know, family systems, neuro linguistic programming, DBT, mindfulness meditation. Like, at this point, like, it's a broad landscape. But for me, starting first through that lens kind of mindfulness and CBT, that really helped me, you know, because my brain, I like to look at it through the lens of the logic and the practicality and then learning how to release the stored survival, survival stress through, like, following my impulses and using some of that somatic experiencing. Those practices kind of brought it all together for me.

25:03 And what kind of somatic experiences were most helpful for you?

25:09 Well, one of my dear colleagues, Irene Lyon, I really love her work. Whenever I have somebody who's wanting to do somatic experiencing work, that's. She's a just the person that I always go to. And some of the things that, you know, I learned through our friendship and through our work together, our work really kind of complements each other very nicely, but, you know, being able to do things like orienting where you're really taking in your environment, more like slowing that down, understanding how to connect into your environment. And then one of my favorite things that she really teaches and models, which is born out of, I think it's Peter Levine's work, to some extent, is following your impulses. And so, you know, so much of what's happening in trauma is we're not getting to say what we want to say in that moment or do what we want to do in that moment. And so, you know, as I began to go back into trauma memories or moments and notice in that moment, I really wanted to say, like, f you. Or I really wanted to, like, bite down, you know, and bite you. Right. And then I. Letting those words come through or letting the physicality of biting, like, that stored stress in my jaw went away.

26:23 Oh, you too?

26:24 Had.

26:24 I had years and years of TMJ problems.

26:27 Yeah. Just like. Yeah, just like, grinding my teeth and stress and. Yeah, exactly. And so through that practice of, like, literally just letting my, you know, mouth chomp as if I were biting, you know. Yeah. Release that stress. So I love those practices because there's this nice, I think, way in which, for me, as I've grown, finding that right balance between. Let me approach this through the lens of kind of mindfulness and language and perspective and rationale, and then also let me think about it over here with, like, what my body wants to release or needs to, you know, how it needs. Needs to be nurtured or held in that moment. And then bringing those two things together, I think, has led to the biggest gains and the biggest, you know, shifts in just how I experience myself and how I navigate the world.

27:24 So other than the TMJ, the temporomandibular joint pain, and were there any that you intuitively believe you experienced because of having been harmed sexually as a child?

27:40 Hmm, interesting. Nothing immediately comes to mind. You know, I think for me, the. The harder. The harder parts for me to really process were kind of my internal belief systems, how I held myself. Right. And. And I think that's a place where, you know, there are these. I call them, like, the. The mindsets or the beliefs. Right. Or the stories. Yeah. And I can see how there are some mindsets and beliefs that have been completely eradicated. Like, there's no way, like, I just don't buy it anymore. Right. Like, things, like, it was my fault. Right. Or I made that happen. And then there are other little things, like, sometimes when I think about the ways that that abuse and trauma made me feel like my being wanted or unwanted was on the table and how that can still kind of show up in the way that I feel in relationships, and then I have to bring a little bit of mindfulness to that and kind of unpacking that still. So for me, it has a lot to do less in the way that my, I didn't, I don't know that I held a lot, a lot, a lot in my body. Most of it really felt for me about kind of mindset and sense of self being impacted.

29:12 So you're, you're being, feeling you wanting to be, feel wanted, and sometimes you felt unwanted and not feeling like you belong. Can you share some specifics about how you helped yourself recover from that? Let that go?

29:32 Yeah. I mean, I think that that one is in some ways like a stickier one. It's still a little bit of a work in progress, and there's ways in which I see it. Like, it shows up in certain relationships, like my most intimate relationships, but not, like, in my friendships. Right. But for me, it really is coming all the way back to the place of understanding how this, the bigger internal system around kind of being tricked. And, you know, that was such a core part of how that felt with my grandfather. You know, here's somebody who I trusted and I loved and I doted on and then was am like, I'm hit with this whammy. And, you know, that feeling of being tricked, I being deceived, being made a fool of, so to speak, too. And so, you know, I think there's a way in which, you know, how I work with things like that is to really first and foremost understand the origin of that, you know, feeling and then going back and really being with that feeling more deeply. You know, you can't run away from it. You know, it's not going to go anywhere just by ignoring it. And so sitting into that, and I do all kinds of things. I write, spew letters and get really angry and pissed off about it, right. That that was the experience that I've had. And for me, language and the power of language is always at the center of how I start anything when it comes to healing. And so finding that place of, like, I choose myself. And that's kind of like a big theme for me right now is looking at the ways in which all throughout my teens and my young adult years and even into, you know, thirties and some of my last relationship, this feeling of, like, wanting to be chosen and losing that connection to the first person who needs to choose here is me, so. Right. So that's. I mean, it's just fascinating to me, you know, that there can be. I think it's just such a beautiful process at the end of the day, we as humans, learning about ourselves and unraveling ourselves and figuring out what makes us tick and. And how, when we can, you know, clear the board of something, it allows just new layers of kind of growth and healing. I don't feel like I'm in recovery. This is why I often say to my clients, like, I'm not in recovery in that sense of that time in our life where, like, everything is about the abuse, but sometimes things will show up, life experiences will bring something forward and cause you to just have to look at yourself a little bit more deeply. And for me, using the beyond surviving method, really, that framework, those are really the steps. I just do it, like, rinse and repeat, like, over and over and over again to kind of take me, you know, through that process of going from a moment of insight to a moment of completion about something.

32:29 Do you want to. Do you want to do it? Share a bit of those steps that you rinse and repeat continually?

32:35 Well, there's about 16 of them, so I don't think we want to get into all the details of it here. I've said a little bit of it. Like, where I start is in the naming the what so and being and feeling in coming into some of the change of language that I need to do, getting perspective about it, really localizing. Right. Like, okay, this moment of being tricked doesn't mean everyone is going to do that. Right. And just shifting that perspective, feeling the feelings about it. Right. Naming those. All of the feelings, the sadness, the. The anger, etcetera, is in there.

33:11 Okay, great. All right, well, we've got just six plus minutes left. Okay, what would you like documented in the library of Congress? What do you want to go down in history?

33:27 Trauma is not a life sentence.

33:30 Okay.

33:32 Yeah.

33:33 Yeah.

33:38 It feels the most important to me because, you know, it breaks my heart when I see people who are really stuck in either the victim or their survivor mode and that. That we can get these, the. I think things are changing. You know, I think things are moving along. We're seeing how people have so much resilience and bounce back and that we can heal on all these levels and that, you know, we have. For me, it's about rebellion. It's about, you know, take back your life, take back your body, take back your mind, take back your spirit, like, none of the people who harmed you have any right to have a hold on any of that. And so, you know, that's where, that's what inspires my work. That's what drives me, you know, to do the work that I do and to keep coming back to it, because I think about every single person, you know, achieving that, that I get to walk alongside and how that has those trickle down effects, right, to their family or their friends or their children. And, you know, because it can feel daunting sometimes when we think about how many people are impacted, you know, by this and, and how many people are needing resources. But if we can at least, you know, give the message that, you know, this is not it forever, you know, I think that's a really powerful thing to do.

35:09 And what do you recommend for the people who are stuck in seeing themselves as a victim or feeling hopeless to get healthy or have energy? What might be a baby step for someone like that to help themselves?

35:31 Well, when you're at that stage, first it's coming into naming, acknowledging, and just being honest with yourself. And so sometimes that happens through writing. Sometimes that happens through just a real heart to heart with yourself. Is my life the way that I really want it to be? And. And sometimes, yeah, we get stuck in the. But I don't know how to change it. Well, don't worry about the how. Worry about the want. Do you want to want comes before the how. As soon as you want something, you'll find a how. You'll start to call people. You'll start to ask people. You'll start to read books. You'll start to move towards. And, you know, I know there can be for a lot of people who come to me, they're like, gosh, Rachel, like, I've tried everything, right? And it's. Sometimes you just have to land on the right tool or the right mentor. And so I know it can be frustrating if you've been on the journey for a while and feel like things have kind of moved, but not fully to maintain hope. But hope is really what inspires action. Without it, we get paralyzed. So, you know, I think I find hope when I hear other people's stories of triumph. I find hope when I find communities where I hear people who are like, yep, that's what I feel. That's what I experience. So I don't feel so alone in that. And so, like, that's one of the reasons why I run my healing from sexual abuse Facebook group, because that's just a great place where people can come and when they're at this delicate step of like, okay, I think I might want something else, but I'm not quite sure how to get there or if it's really gonna happen for me, then that can be a place to come and get bolstered and encouraged. Yeah. To move forward towards it.

37:14 So people can find you on Facebook at healingfromsexual abuse.

37:18 Yeah. I think if you search on Facebook for that, the direct link is facebook.com groups. Realtalkwithrachel. Okay. And of course, if you go to my website, rachelgrantcoaching.com, you can kick around and find all kinds of things there. The podcast, the blog, the Facebook group, my free groups, my, you know, paid programs. You know, there's all kinds of great resources and support there. So that's a great place to start. It's just the website.

37:45 So say the website name again.

37:47 Yeah. Rachelgrantcoaching.com.

37:50 Rachelgrantcoaching.Com.

37:54 Great.

37:54 What a wealth of information. Thank you so much for sharing your life journey, the thus far.

38:01 Thanks for having me. It's such a joy. Thank you, everybody, for listening.

38:04 Thank you. All right, take care.

38:07 Take care. Bye bye.

38:15 All right.

38:16 Thank you.