Dorothy Jackson and Nicole Jackson

00:02 My name is Nicole Jackson. I'm 43. Today is November 15th 2014. I'm here at the Chicago Cultural Center and going to interview my mom.

00:17 My name is Dorothy Jackson. I'm 77 years old today is the 15th of September 9th 2014 location. I'm at the Chicago Cultural Center, and I'm going to be interviewed by my daughter Nicole.

00:37 Tell Mom I'm wondering if you have any childhood memories that stand out from your childhood in Jamaica something that you always look back on smile.

00:58 Christmas

01:00 Christmas time with your family, but it was together and we were free to eat as much as we wanted at Maywood go to the stores in Kingston to buy the get the toys.

01:13 And dustpan of the Christmas tree just the constant. I got your family being together and all the cakes have been baking a ham.

01:24 What does a happy time for me?

01:27 That stands out more than anything else did Grandma do a lot of cooking and she did a lot of cocaine. She did a lot of cooking and I remember going to a wedding when I was 7 years old in this bridal party and remember the dress being made and my shoes. I got a car coming for me than big black limousine the back in the forties that. Good memories good memories. I remember you telling me about having your shoes and keeping your shoes and a special drawer here when my mother came here and Grandma came here, and she was telling me very pretty stuff, but I rather them so much but I would wear certain things out. I will put it back in my dresser drawer.

02:14 Do you know the shoes and put it in the drawer at the I valued it so much. I think you do some of that still now. I still carry this over to old days.

02:26 So you grew up in the house with a lot of siblings three boys and two other girls or boys what time I'm going to always have somebody that housekeeper and a nanny and stuff like that.

02:46 Did you ever did you ever notice if you were treated the girls were treated or differently than the boys are cuz you guys are also the youngest so the boys are older. So how did that play out? We were by my father. He treated us really very it was very gentle with us because my mother was very strict and I should have kept a very merry Street could have six of us. So she did not play around Manhattan told that line and if we went out better come back at a certain time and Anna

03:24 What was your father like since I didn't get to know him at all? What was he like it was very gentle very soft-spoken never use a mean word. I was very kind to us what the funny know, he wasn't funny. He was a businessman. He was a merchant Taylor and he had a business in the middle of it in the city of Kingston and

03:48 We were I really loved him cuz you got me to call Grandma was so strict. I said before I prefer my father to my mother, but you wouldn't do that. But he was very kind and it was a lot of pocket money the other day. Remember never said I used to pay school fees for you when I decided to work it and your fault that it was giving you guys so much money. So Uncle never was helping to pay your school fees Joyce lingerie school fees at private schools.

04:25 And so Uncle never was contributing with you were getting a kickback from your father and I never said I was here pay school fees and then he was also paid for when Grandma came to visit. I just had to come away to realize that there was so much extra money in the bank. I drove the build-up from the is Spain on the school fees.

04:48 So your father was a merchant Taylor, so did he train did he apprenticed so you produce he came and came away to America and ideas to do before World War 1 1914. He landed in New York and then went to Ohio to be apprenticed to a prince bierdeman company in Cleveland, Ohio. I need to sign up for the war, but he got pneumonia. So he went back to Jamaica in 1918.

05:16 And then he continued Pratt. He cannot own business in Kingston on Harbor Street in Kingston was it was it hard for him to have a business or how did the did he take the take him away from the the home a lot. He got married to his first wife and he had three children, but he was able to spend a lot of time building up the business. But by the time I came to know him as a second set of children, he had about 20 men working for him. I didn't know that man working for him. Did he have one shop, but you had a lot of real estate property in Kingston.

05:57 So I know it's when you were older Grandma came here. And how old were you when when when Grandma came came here 1951-52

06:10 Go to to

06:12 I was about

06:16 A lot of 13 that must have been hard with hard she came away because she has to decide that you wanted Independence after so many years of being with my father who

06:28 Was not the most Sienna.

06:32 Peaceful and I had all of them women so she came over to make a life for herself and it was very traumatic for us as young girls. So when did you decide to follow her? Why what made you decide to compose? I wanted to come away to college and came away. I applied to NYU and I had an interview I was accepted then came away.

06:57 Can you were the oldest so you can imagine they when did they convict I came here in 57 on marginal Joe came in 59 just the same around the same time that I was getting married.

07:16 Do you remember what it was like to be in the house when grandma said she was leaving and how like your father was and do you remember what that was like?

07:28 But yes, I remember that particular day when she got her visa from the American Embassy and she came home and I was very next door and she came and she told us that you got to be so she's going to run right away. I remember running to the fence and then getting the bar while I was here and then all of a sudden she told the maid to take care of it because she saw someone be here and I feel so horrible. I imagine she's going to she's passing.

08:04 How much she was determined to come away? That must have been a very hard decision.

08:15 Wow, that's, everybody and that day. She left it was was that somebody had died?

08:24 We're your brothers around to comfort you or where they didn't have it as hell never was around Raymond was there but if they're all there? Yeah, I never saw that took over the running of the house being as responsible as he is and I just guiding us kind of looking out for us with their time than the youngers. We couldn't we have to be dressed in the evenings Tylenol. We could not go to the fence to hang out cannot be seen at the fence with the street because of something I did as you lay the young ladies you don't do that you sit on the veranda.

09:05 So you came to United States for to go to school to spend it was in 1957 57 and so you didn't end up at 1 and why you know, you ended up going to City College I transfer cuz it was expensive than the rate was very high. And does your grandma alone. What was your first impression when you came that you took a plane and you landed where is your land and I change planes in Miami and I was sick for my to call from Kingston. I threw up the whole way because they didn't have Dramamine back then right and I remember coming to Miami changing planes are coming on Panama and Grandma and on tune in another friend Rosie met me at the airport. Where did now it wasn't LaGuardia at the time. It was either Idyllwild right in those days. You could come right today almost to the gate. You can come to the gate to meet the arriving passengers.

10:05 Are you dressed? I was dressed with a hat and gloves very interested and you're coming to the United States. I was alone and where you planning was that just a visit or were you moving out of coming here permanently. So that's a pretty big step like your first time on a plane, United States and you're relocating. So what were your first impressions of and you in, New York?

10:36 And this is just overwhelming. This is the height of the building people.

10:42 Excuse me.

10:45 The amount of people want someone

10:53 The people and Anna and excitement as a young girl of nineteen eighty. Ninety you're so I mean it all and all I mean how the place is it is Radio City Grandma to go to Radio City all this time. It was exciting. Where did you live when you first came I live. I live off of The Concourse in the Bronx.

11:18 I live in the Bronx. You guys lived in Harlem after that Grandma will move to the heart of the Convent Avenue in the Bronx 1st, and I used to go and stay with your cousin that lives on 142nd and Lenox Avenue Daphne the Dawkins. Okay. That's Daphne always talk about her mother, which was very nice to me that when I was a little longer mean side.

11:42 So that's a very selfish whatever and I

11:46 And then after that remove the comment devenir live there with the Purcell, I didn't grandma bought a place rented a place in the Bronx and then after that you bought the house on 215 street, but then Grandma had gone from how did she become a nurse that she Train choo train. She went to school here when she got here since you guys here cuz she was just so she could so anything without some pattern what meter want to be a nurse. Do you know for her know I know but I mean why or why not teaching or why not, you know, Eli's nursing should understand that taking care of the sick, obviously why Bellevue

12:33 Because that's where she was able to get a job in psychiatry.

12:37 Then she used to tell me she used to walk to work or she's the result like she used to walk.

12:44 From all the way. There was something where she used to walk all the time. You should work there times when she would be in the city. I should walk from the city of the heart Goshen apartments in Holland before we came I should walk from 14th Street, which is where Bellevue Bellevue West 23rd Street 14th Street Upton apartment on 142nd and she did a lot of walking so I should stay so Fit until age 95. So I remember you seeing pictures of you at and then went on Joanne. Mozzy came and then on Joan also you guys used to have a group that you like I got when you were in your twenties at Malaysia the cats and what was that just about socializing and meeting guys and just having a good time.

13:44 And what plant part is Sienna where you all Jamaican? Yes. No, no one else.

13:53 No there no Americans in the early twenties.

14:05 Don't go to clubs and have House parties and then we had a big dance with mother and turn came and they're both drank so much I could barely even get out that couldn't get them up the stairs.

14:21 Wow, it was very nice.

14:25 I know you told me but

14:29 Do you remember like when did you first meet Daddy?

14:37 I first met your father in 1962. I had gone to visit a girlfriend that I went to school with in Jamaica, and she had a birthday party in October.

14:51 Grandma called me to say that she's been at city college with me and Engineering he came over and he brought the thread and grandma said call me Cecil Brunner friend. You should come meet him. He's really nice.

15:08 So I hardly got dressed and all over you.

15:13 2422 from 725

15:20 And if I understand I can

15:25 I'm down.

15:29 Yeah, I came in and made two amazing father. He was in engineering along with Cecil at city college and what stood out about him just as personalities his good looks just as charm at the time. I just felt that it Klein & Sinker and it's beautiful hazel eyes.

15:55 So how so you guys met? What year was that? Again? 1960 to October 1962 and you got married 1969. No 69 February and I've seen the pictures so

16:13 You guys were married then I sent you had me in 1971 and you were working but you were thinking about becoming a teacher is because it didn't happen so not because I was advised that my career the UN will probably go on track for working at the when did you start working at the United Nation? 1965?

16:36 And how did you start there? And I took the test. All right. I've got to finish to the college and I took the test cuz you won't have to take a test in back in those days. I took the test I got in and then I started to move up there.

16:57 So so what made you think about leaving because I said I said first in the children came and I said I'd love to have more time with you and Matthew like in the summer.

17:10 And I also might not go I'm getting let go to sit graduate school. Do my Masters in Education? I did get in touch with Columbia Teachers College Card application and applied and was accepted but then a colleague of mine at the UN said to me, you know, your career is going to keep going are you going to do that now this stage when things are moving. And I said, you know. Plus the other thing is that with all the house.

17:44 I miss you, and I want move from the Bronx in before the Bronx and now we're living in Hartsdale, and I wanted to be able to help out with the house. So why should I when might you know, it was me to go back to school?

17:56 Find all that money for Teachers College. Columbia was very expensive.

18:02 That's a lot to consider every you had to consider your home, you know where you were living with her finances children your career path. How did you make that decision? Like I like I see you like the children, but the part of that was wanting to be going to education so you can be home with us. So, how did you make how did you balance the wanting to be home? And then the financial I did have that I didn't have the money to go to Teachers College Columbia. I'll send it. I don't remember how much per credited was back in 1972, whatever.

18:38 Said I decided on that and I'm going to stand with the UN and it didn't work out the grandma. Did you talk to Grandma about those decisions? It was just a colleague who suggested you would see that you have so you will you move from secretary and what are the positions you had at the um,

18:58 I had research officer and then from research to officer the policy-making officer and retired as a policy-making person. Were there a lot of women at that level and boy has there really women of color?

19:18 Yeah, they were women nevermind on that level.

19:22 Gratulate size increase because they did studies of the UN to see how women are progressing to the higher ranks and I hadn't reached a high rank in a i concentrated more on raising the children then on my career I did enough and I did well enough to know but there's some woman who devoted their time to just staying at work working late at night weekends and they moved up the corporate ladder. Did you feel any tension or did you feel any need to yeah, did you feel any sort of you know, cuz so many women who have families feel like they want to succeed in their career. They want to succeed at home and then they feel like they can't do a late they feel like they want both but they can't do both and they're always in that constantly pull. That's a good fact. That's a good point because I felt like I wanted to do but I wanted to grow I want to keep the getting this promotion, but the same time I need to be there for you and Matthew.

20:22 You got a call from the school. I wanted to be able to jump out. I mean, there are the women in my office who ignored me when the children calling the school called they didn't respond at 9 an internal not very well later on with their children. But my priority was now the children come first fine. I was doing well enough of the UN and her side is fine.

20:48 That you were able to that doesn't see what you were able to find your own my own my own balance and that didn't hurt you where you were in your position such that the choices to go home or didn't respond to family stuff didn't hurt you. None of them could have done better, but I wasn't okay with that you traveled a lot when we were kids for work and particularly to places that you know, we didn't know anything about and do you remember some of the trips that stand out in your travels for work my first trip to Rome that bothers me even till today because I was gone for 4 weeks and Matthew was on there nothing. I'm going to beat you to it was going to be too.

21:37 That August you are going to be 5 and I said, how could I have left you kids for 4 weeks been in Rome and Florence add a meeting, but then I never thought about it. I need help and I move my career forward so you till now then since you made that choice I made that choice, but I wonder if I even thought about it in-depth because in retrospect I'm saying that he didn't know me when I came back. You didn't tell me he was hanging onto Ines the babysitter be harder for you because that was really hard. And I said, what was I thinking?

22:24 Did you so wrong with your first big trip? And then what was the next one was North Africa to Egypt and all the East East Africa. Can I ask to ask Nicole? How what was your reaction to your mom going to Rome? Do you remember that? I don't even remember you really going to wrong. I was like five you're going to be 5 that I don't actually remember it's doesn't stand out as a distinct memory. I remember you traveling when I was older and high school whether it what you were going to Asia or South America and you were gone for a couple of weeks at a time and I was having whatever teenage angst drama that typically had and couldn't talk to you cuz you're at but when I was in Geneva coffee shop

23:20 When I was in Geneva, you call me at 3 in the morning cuz you had met a new guy got Columbia drama.

23:34 So, did you have a favorite place when you travel from all those places you visited?

23:41 And I love room.

23:43 I love Rome. I got mad that friend Carol, but even dared her to place to me more because of her our friendship over these how many years are every Christmas. I don't know how

23:59 And I thought I loved Rome. Are you saw her when your regular grind?

24:04 What about going to Africa and Asia and South America Legos are most fascinating why because each country was different to people in different cultures have different The Landing train it offered something new each time. I went to some place and my preconceived ideas about these people these places were so wrong. So so wrong so did you know, I just brought my view of the world when I went to Asia. All of Asia. I went through all of Asia most of Africa.

24:45 Asia Latin America

24:49 You know it so I come with a different mindset.

24:52 So in traveling and being in that environment and in for work, were you

25:02 How many I'm curious as to like being a professional being in that environment, you know as a woman woman of color it like how did that feel? Where were you one of many? Were you just like one of a few and how did you negotiate that if any, you know, if you even thought about it, I never thought about it you're traveling and working for the UN to go to Jamaica and you've now created this career for yourself and you're in the situation, but I would have to go and meet with the resident representative of there and travel in the limousine with the UN flag. I know that it is to me it was so the presentations to a meeting versus going in a little intimidating at the time. But how did you get through it? Like, how did you get? How do I have my facts together?

26:02 What being in the Sudan I've got into a meeting and then

26:10 Let's run the guy came to take me for dinner.

26:15 And there was a time when they wanted me to go to the southern part of the city and where the fighting was the war was that when the war started way back then back in the 80s and it's only two years ago by George Clooney got involved. That's why I said between the North and South Sudan and I did want to go there because I heard that this condition is there the war and just conditions and the UNICEF wanted to send me on they're playing down to look at the conditions of service for the style and I was able to manipulate it by saying that if I went to the southern part of the show that I miss my flight to connect me to West Africa, I would be in the city and 4 weeks to get the next plane out. You guys can find another way to connect with those people communicate.

27:06 But this was it needs more interesting places interest in places. I can't forget them. Maybe I can't forget being in the middle by the pyramids and the camels are going into the office in Cairo and meeting with the staff in Egyptian L. What about in Asia? What stands out because it was so beautiful that people are so beautiful.

27:37 The interaction I had blue stuff. They're very nice and caring and the shopping was really good about South America Brazil.

27:50 I love that boy has Aires Argentina remind me so much of Paris and European. Can you cause with the cobblestone street and the narrow streets like Paris?

28:11 I love places like Paris and London and Geneva in Geneva for 4 weeks. I remember the time. Yeah, I was that was during the summer. I think he had gone for 4 weeks to a meeting. I had a paper that Ida present at the session right? I remember you talk I really was said and I remember saying to each other each day. They said that all your items coming up up for discussion next day. Then there's the further to the next day. I said, I want to go home. I want to go home. I don't want to be here. Anyways boring I didn't David David was in Malaysia.

28:53 My cousin Ricky cuz he lived in very outside of Lawson and he was not there. So there was nobody on the weekends. So I stuck with going to the office and with some of the staff and I

29:07 I know I am. So did you were you always interested in world affairs and politics before you started the UN or that's what I meant people and had to work with people from different countries seeing the world in a different way than the average person is open my me up at open me up to to take another look at this world that we live in and it types of people and the culture just isn't totally didn't change me. I think it did. Well, I'm always impressed by your

29:43 Well your familiarity with world the world geography and politics and history and so

29:54 Idiot, you know, you always surprise me with all of this information that I don't know and I'm not as up on her have lost track of and so you follow that you follow the you always talk about how much you love politics in the news and I do I do I do I do. I really do. I really I don't have Grandma always loved to read and she was very political and she was very very knowledgeable person very bright and she loved that type of thing and I think having travel so much and reading so much about the world affairs. I know that globalization is with globalization is a changing geopolitical geopolitical and I took an exam of the UN in Incheon in politics in order to get into that department of public affairs, and I did very well on my own.

30:53 Study I just said it I said it for it and I really love to I would love to work in that if I could go into a department again at the UN, I would love to go into Political Affairs. I think I have such a passion for it and what's going on in that country?

31:11 If I don't have a Homeland Nicole, it's not just America America things that they're not in the insular and I didn't read that they don't realize there's another world out there with people of different cultures and want the same things that you and I want. They just come and get you in a different way and we have to be tolerant of people.

31:42 Smart, but tolerant definitely did you?

31:48 What prompted you or did this sort of love? You? No political Affairs and did that get you to want to get involved with politics like a lot of macro-level Mary, but you really would have I really would have gone back to graduate and post-graduate school to do my doctorate in something really political to even make there's so much making inroads into interview anyone is so political and it doesn't just happen like that because you have a PhD in whatever political Affair that you're going to be head of a department in my next life. I probably would have involved with politics. I got a little yeah, so what prompted you to become?

32:43 Volunteer for the Obama campaign the first black president. I need to get involved. I need to see him in that office before I pass. I need to see him their grandma would have been so proud of it cuz she would not have believed it cuz she came from a different era where it was totally different.

33:04 So you when you first came here, I remember you didn't you guys didn't go to the March on Washington with it because we weren't involved in the whole civil rights issue. And that's why I went back last summer. I said I miss 63. How could I add a black woman not to get involved in the Civil Rights issue that when will it was traumatic how many people overwhelm me to the point that I'm not claustrophobic but I almost thought I was going to collapse but it was impressive that you went. Everybody was born in everybody. She lives out there and she went on that March. I was just walking with the crowds. I'm going to the subway. It was tremendous trim my last reminder.

33:49 Was that in the midst of the campaign the end I'll know it was there that was leading up to the election. Like what kind of work were you doing? And what you mean October 06 voter registration Drive in the Lehigh Valley in Pennsylvania.

34:13 In New York City in Westchester County. I was co-chair of the his campaign here in Westchester County and was going to Pennsylvania every weekend to register people to vote and then door to door ringing doorbell in different areas in Lehigh Valley every weekend on the bus and the Grassroots campaign is what I was looking for what came through for had cancer last so have you found do you like

34:49 Working up the political involved in local politics with the Democratic party and I do what I can but my passion was to get the Rock related was with him. That was my passion and I saw it through to the end there times when the road a little bumpy and I said I'm going to give it up and then I said I couldn't do that. I can do that. The I remember folks.

35:18 Will you got that award for your work? Was it on his campaign? And then since then cuz I used to say to you should get involved local politics. And you said no, but now that you're on everybody's like hot list of people to the 1 minute to take care and do Hillary if she does run what you've already cuz you've done to two campaigns in between. Yeah. Yeah my place, Council been Boykin and Nadine hunt on their re-election.

35:51 I never knew it is said that the political person I know other result. I've met some very nice people and I get invited to all their summer barbecue parties in a limited way because I'll be much older and there's a limit on how much I can do, but I want to do I would love to see I love to see her in the office.

36:27 The we say you're getting older but people are always amazed at how you look and how you keep your so you're in such great shape and such great health. And I know one of those things that you do that you love is Yoga white what? You know, tell me what does yoga do for you? You'll do I skip me flexible my mind sharp a sharp as can be flexible and just

36:57 A good sense of

37:00 Feeling alive

37:03 Spiritually awakened what the mind can do for the body try to cut the connection is a connection between mind and body and after having so many illnesses and seen where I am. Now. I realize that yoga has brought me this far.

37:23 When you look back and you think about some of your proudest moments, what would you say my children?

37:38 Dorothy what makes you proud of your children what makes you the most proud

37:48 7 most

37:57 Well, we are because of you. I love you.

38:05 I know.

38:08 That's why I think Matthew and I are the way we are as cuz of you and how much love you've given us. So that's what your father said you because of how you cared for us. We're in Ferry, you know, we can last night. She said, how could you have two such lovely a successful children? Like Michael and Matthew Hussey, just love them. Just love your children.

38:40 Are we felt that I think we felt that growing up as kids. I was a really you know, cuz I'm so happy. We had a lot of great childhood and and lots of high expectations which was good. And it's something that when I work with younger people now.

39:07 So what's thank you Mom for sharing your stories because it was great to hear them. That's good and bad and it kept it too kept it to a minimum.

39:27 I mean, there's always more to talk about but I think we covered a lot of good stuff there anything you want to say? No, no secrets nothing. I don't have another husband anywhere else. Thank you. Love you. Love you, too.