Brigitte Brown, Julie Brown, and Joanna Brown

00:05 I'm Bridget Brown. I'm 75 years old today is the 21st of May 2015 location is Chicago Cultural Center?

00:18 And my two interview are my daughters, Joanna Julie.

00:26 I'm Julie Brown. I'm 57. It's May 21st, 2015. We're at the Chicago Cultural Center and I am the daughter of appreciate the person being interviewed.

00:40 My name is Joanna Brown. I'm 67. Today is May 21st, 2015. We're at the Chicago Cultural Center, and I'm also a daughter of

00:59 Discussion

01:02 Well, we wanted to interview you because we know you have such really amazing Stories. We've heard that some pieces of them, but we'd like to have them down so we can remember them when we start losing our memories now. I'm just getting we want to hear.

01:21 First of all where you were born where you came from? Okay, I was born in salacia, which is now Poland's right when I was born. It was still Germany after the second world war it became polish in a little village of about I would say 712000 people.

01:45 What did your family do there?

01:47 What did your family do their my father was a teacher?

01:52 And all my mother was a housewife and I had three older brothers. I'm the youngest of four children.

02:02 So tell us a little bit about what what it was like for you and your early years and you know, you grew up in the moment, you know, I've come over all this time. I was born during the second world war and sinks for very big in turmoil my oldest my father and my oldest brother. We're already in the war my brother my two first brothers were more than 10 years older than I'm about 10 years like you to 10 years between two set of children.

02:34 And so I have relatively little memory of my childhood. I only know from the photo that my father who was came home for a visit from the war saw me once

02:51 And my mother said I was not very he had a beard and I was crying it was afraid of him. Of course for me for me. He was a strange man.

03:02 So tell us about when you do have the situation in the world code for seven dwarfs and my mother then my second brother who was 15 years old. He was when they didn't come home from gymnastics room in the next city, that's low and the parents were informed their mother was informed. They when Hitler was at the brink of losing he took whatever kids you could take and cents at the front to make the juice for whatever things and so my mother could very scared and she packed some suitcases and grab my younger brother wanted a half years older than I am and meat and went over to my grandfather's house.

03:49 It was ridiculous that this was only about 250 km apart that she saw it. We will be there much safer. But at least there she was surrounded by her father and her two sisters and two brothers.

04:04 So what happened with your older brothers and your father?

04:09 Well, then never came back from the war all three of them know what this desert one was conquered if the fifteen-year-old he came to Russian. We see Russian prison for person, but he has to be released because it was an agreement between the countries my old people and miners were not kept in prisons.

04:36 So he eventually came home, but we didn't find him for three other years because he had no idea where we were and we had no idea where he was. How did you end up finding him? Well, I have to tell you.

04:56 When the Russians first occupied

04:59 Did the Russian composer to the village velvets where my grandfather lift and we were and they occupied this Village and the first thing the first few months the officers occupied our house and we were my aunt was my cousin my other Aunt Bee were moved in the house to very small rooms, you know, and the little while even moved out of the house all together to an old farmhouse and then time for typhoid the dangerous kind of type word broke out.

05:35 And I was a very skinny little girl and my mother was sure I will contact at thence I will die and one of my mother sister already has escaped from

05:49 Celestia which is not put on which I said to chase about you because we were very close to the border the river Opa. What's the Border?

06:00 And my mother had a cousin Second Great who was the owner and of course everybody was everybody would you had was taken away from you he had to work in his own meal, but it didn't belong anymore to him and he couldn't stand that and he decided to escape over the river to Jason about Kia.

06:24 And my mother begged him to take me along because he knew he had a sister and an uncle who was a priest. They were already escaped to Czechoslovakia.

06:35 And

06:38 So

06:41 He took me.

06:43 In his knapsack and at night it was Winter was February.

06:49 He had worked out already and kind of a route where he wanted to go. Unfortunately, he broke through the water and the first thing she released my knapsack.

06:59 But I was caught immediately in some bushes and branches from trees were frozen in the ice.

07:07 So I was tangled up there and of course as soon as he could found a foothold he grabbed me and then we made it across the river was not a very big river.

07:19 And we walked and of course wet and cold and freezing. And at one point, we finally saw the lights meaning they were houses.

07:30 And he walked me to a certain house first, and then he said you go to this house and you knock on the door.

07:40 And I didn't know I'd and he disappeared.

07:46 How old are you at that time for?

07:49 You remember that? Yeah, and those people were stunts. They would check people. They didn't speak to him and his dad comes this little girl speaking German the stuff so they took me in overnight and the next day they brought me to the authorities.

08:05 And they put me in a camp for displaced people.

08:11 Were there women in one of the part of the building was camp for women and children and other side of the building was lots of it meaning a

08:24 Hospital for wounded

08:29 And I was there as a single child without a mother results.

08:35 And I was a few AZ once there. I was sleeping in with a nurse because I had no mother.

08:43 They treated me nice and then a man came to visit and was very friendly and the second time he came he brought two boys one was about my age one was little older and I didn't know what was going on. But after a while they told me where all this.

09:03 Nice men will find a new mama for you.

09:09 And when I asked where my mama was there was said your mama is up in heaven. You have to be brave little girl. And I said who is Elmer that's what's the name of my brother. He is with Mama up in heaven and you have to be very brief break because you look down on you.

09:27 And the one day

09:32 In my head that time I thought you was an elderly lady woman came, but she was very friendly and she took me and told me she is now my new mama and she took me home with her. So what this I came to wreck there was a two boys who came first to visit me and checked me out. He was a crook.

09:55 He sold me to this woman childless couple.

09:59 You also was laid off by the orange people persecuted because you also said he's a gynecologist and he examined was his woman every week.

10:11 So you are for when you're so I can't even imagine how you must have felt about all of this. I mean your whole world upside down. I was so this was in January at 2 and 5. So I was little Ola and then in this with this woman, I visit the robot. They move to proc Clifton Park at a time. I didn't know not in what city was the first thing she did she cut my break stuff because braids are German and she wouldn't want her little girl looking German and the next thing she did she bought skates for me.

10:57 She we had to go ice skating I hated hated it. And also she bought me a lot of her when she was a doll, which was nearly as big as I was.

11:13 And one day she made a trip to visit her sister.

11:20 And she was always on the kind of nervous. You know, she had reason to

11:27 Her husband was employed by the railroad station. So she got two trips a year for free and when she left he stayed home with me.

11:37 And one afternoon the doorbell rang and who stood in the door my uncle. The priest was a Catholic priest was a cal clyster and and he talked to this man and said who he is and he wanted to come and pick up his knees because the mother is alive. She's not that and stuff.

11:59 And

12:01 He was very know. She was there the first time she was there and she was very very rude to him and she kicked him out the second time and she went on this trip. She was worried. So she looked all my clothes including shoes away. And unfortunately, I never been my uncle was a life. I never asked him. How did you find out?

12:27 When this woman was not there.

12:32 So that will be remaining mystery forever.

12:36 Is So Divine did the did the camp tell him where you were I assume because

12:46 As I say I never asked him personally and then we will find out because he's long dead. But anyway, I ended up in a farmhouse where my aunt who already told you was escaped to change the backup before I went as a mate as a thousand horses and sheep and stuff, but she had to do one event before she started this job. She said under the

13:15 Good thing she said if my little niece if you find my little niece that you that I can come and live with her and the people agree to that there were lots of circumstances which I don't know how the people communicated and so

13:34 So how did you feel when you were like alone and taken to this camp? And did you feel like people did you nice or know? I was very very tough little kids. So, you know, whatever was Oscar did that was very obedient kid and

13:56 My brother wouldn't have survived this because he's a totally different temperament.

14:02 So, how did how are you reunited with your mother? And I remember very clearly I was sitting in this Farmhouse. They had a big kitchen with bench and table because all the farmhands eat in the kitchen together and it had a big tile to old fashioned stove. Which will he did what?

14:25 And I was sitting alone and drawing something and the kitchen door open and my brother stuck his head in there and looked and said Yes tour.

14:39 And then I saw a my mother following so we were reunited.

14:45 Of course wonderful.

14:48 You must have been very surprised because you've been told but my aunt already prepared me and said look what they told you this movie is in heaven that is not true, but it's not cheese in an hour when it whenever she is able to come she will come and get you should always reassured me. She's not deserting you. She and Elmer are coming to get you.

15:10 And after this she determined her job as a maid to the check the government treated to Germans very well.

15:20 They said they have only one thing you have to become check citizen. Then you get in your profession jobs you get housing you get your treated like a check.

15:32 And so and Meanwhile my other aunt and my grandfather was already in the high 70s.

15:41 Crossed over to change Slovakia

15:44 And so we had an apartment there.

15:48 But it was very crowded was too and my grandfather my mother and two kids and my mother decided. She does not want us to become check. She wanted us to remain Germans and go to German schools. So beware evacuated out.

16:06 Out of our own free will

16:09 And you went back to Germany dates were said we were supposed to pack our stuff and show up at the train station. And of course during the war most of the trains cinnamon stations were bombarded and didn't but they had cattle trains.

16:28 So they put people who wanted to leave trailer back and Kettle trains old people mothers and children.

16:36 And have you seen Doctor Zhivago just like Doctor Zhivago, you know straw each one got a corner.

16:47 The door was closed stay with no windows.

16:51 And every half-day the door open to put food in some people or people died took the old people out all the excrement out. It was my mother. I don't remember. I remember it but I don't remember the smell and all this. My mother was shocked business by this, you know any way we were about two and a half weeks. Stop go stop go never know where we are.

17:22 And finally the open too and some guy whistles and said everybody out and be so houses.

17:31 And I see my mother like today she got out and said my godness Arie forsaken East Germany.

17:41 And from there they transported Us in buses to a camp again.

17:48 Because we had to be.

17:51 I don't know what's checked for diseases and all kind of things. So we lift for about another two months in barracks.

18:01 12 people to one room in stacked up pets stuff like this. So how so how old were you at this point five and a half and where did so where did you you didn't know you were going to East Germany nobody in this, you know what the trains went and you had no idea where you ended up which track of which Dragon Goes to East Germany or they are over there. So you are choosing where to go. They were just sending it back to Germany and they decided they decided which who who was it that decided you can make the checks decided. So where did you end up so we ended up in to ring you?

18:44 And I can after several weeks. So in this barracks and stuff till everything was checked sickness and paper senses. We were dispersed two different village injuring was not hit by the war. Very Hearts. Most religious had never bomb braids or something. They were you know, the hardships to because food was scarce on this, but they left in the country and there they were self-sufficient. They had Gardens and they had fields

19:17 So we ended up in Alton fields, which is Village one about 700 people.

19:25 And people were not very becoming yes because they had to give up any spare room they had

19:33 And my mother or my brother and I V ended up in an elegant house.

19:38 If you got one little attic room.

19:44 And one wall was

19:50 How do you say at an angle and angle? Right? And in in Winter on the ice was on inside?

20:00 And we had first first straw lying on straw then my mother whatever she could spare to exchange.

20:10 She got a flower sex and she sort mattress and be stuff to destroy the mattresses and then and she had work of course and then she began to buy.

20:26 She had little money had some guy made some stocked up bats so we could

20:34 So we stayed there for and after I don't know exactly how long time but in the village the mayor decided this woman who has lived in this elegant how she had to get stop downstairs apartment on both sides and she had to give another room up for us because my brother was beginning to you know, she didn't didn't want us to sleep all in one bed.

21:00 So we got a room next to it, which had at least a window.

21:07 What kind of work did your mother do my mother she had to work in the forest?

21:13 The Russian hat after a nose full of Pine Forest and the Russians ordered oldest to chop all the trees at which had a certain size had to be chopped down and do what was transported to Russia.

21:31 So she had to work from 6 in the morning.

21:34 In the forest

21:36 And we were left for ourselves, you know to get ready for school. She cooked a pot of soup and the night before and she put it.

21:48 In the bed and put the feather bed around 2 or whatever. We had that, you know to keep it warm.

21:55 An after-school V joint or you know where she was working in which part of the forest which they would just chopping down and we collected mushrooms and berries and when and what for winter counts and any branches we could break so we had for the winter.

22:17 When she actually chopping down trees know she was on chopping down trees. She had to cut branches down.

22:25 And also the back of service they were too long locks. They were cut and the Brock had to be removed in one piece because this was needing for tanning leather.

22:41 And she was a lot sick at that time. She was a very small woman, you know, Moody very delicate little woman and finally she ended up in the hospital for quite a while and then she decides she cannot work in the heart anymore. Then she worked in the school kitchen.

23:02 Is a cook.

23:04 So then time begin begin for us to be better.

23:09 So, how long did you live in that Village? Well till I was 14.

23:18 After I graduated from eighth grade, I was lucky I go to Fellowship.

23:24 In effort, which is another one 350 km in a big old city at the institute for liver building because I come from the teachers family and I want to be a teacher to my father was a teacher my uncle was a teacher my other end was a teacher my grandfather or great-grandfather was a teacher so it's time seem to be in the family.

23:49 So that was a fellowship to a teacher's school and Institute for labor building in erfurt Teatro.

24:01 And your dad and I visited about 10 years ago. I showed him where I went to school and on the other between the school that was a sports field and on the other side of the school was a Barrack which was our into not or boarding school.

24:25 So did your your mother stayed know by mall of state and she stayed in the village and we're boarding in the high school. I had to take the train. I could come home once a month.

24:37 And then I had to go back in over the weekend, but you never became a teacher. No, unfortunately or fortunately

24:50 I wasn't political kosher.

24:54 I had several warnings for my school that they kick me out.

24:59 As I said in my thinks I'm a free spirit to when the teachers talked about the German soldiers officers and that they were pigs. I filled even though I didn't know my father, but I want to know my father was an officer.

25:17 I got so emotional is that I jumped up and screamed and screamed at him and my father is a big sign you are big to of course it ended up at the principal's office.

25:30 I was a strong warning.

25:33 And then the second things in East Germany didn't like any religion, right? So when we were small we were young people with white blouses stock skirts and blue.

25:49 Scarf

25:52 And when we were older lhasa de free German spirits.

25:59 And they're like in religion you go to confirmation or two but Mitzvah or communion on things like this. They develop the new things you can buy it.

26:14 Is means it was a ceremonial things to head to swear that you serve your country that you give up this and this and this and this and

26:25 I and then they put pressure on us. Everybody should do that and I couldn't do it because my mother was Catholic and the Catholic churches if you renounce your church, then you excommunicated, but I just didn't want to hurt my mother. I said no, I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it.

26:48 And in the end we were by three people in the class. We had parallel classes, but in our class which respect first and refused to

26:59 Do that.

27:00 And so what then I started thinking

27:05 Will I be happy in East Germany being a teacher also telling kids sinks?

27:12 Which I didn't believe him itself, you know.

27:16 Kids know very well if you tell them a story while you were believe or not, or whether you

27:23 And so was 16 I decided snow.

27:28 I want to escape to West Germany the Berlin Wall was still there.

27:34 And

27:38 I decided I asked for a visiting visa and 1/2 the Rector of my school when this institute to vouch for me.

27:49 He did vouch for me.

27:53 Even so I let him know indirectly. I don't intend to come back but he saw it is such a big shot. Nothing will happen.

28:02 Of course, it was a crook too because I was just 16 I was young and pretty

28:07 He invited me to a picnic and then he wanted to

28:15 But again, she just not easily manipulated.

28:21 You never got what you needed. And so but I had my paper in my hand so I could take a train and go officially to West Germany. And of course I never returned.

28:32 He did this for two other students which never returned and the effect was he was fired as director for The Institute in was set in the tiny little village somewhere in the boonies as a teacher as I heard later many years later he escaped eventually to

28:54 They didn't become a teacher. So what did you do in West Germany invest Germany in order to get papers?

29:02 I had to go again to a camp.

29:06 Open the doors.

29:09 And

29:12 It took months to months to straighten out.

29:16 And then they told you where you can move to but I wanted to be in Hanover where I had an uncle.

29:23 And I have no other family and spot on Nova was closed because of the war zones.

29:34 So I had to stay specially long there.

29:40 Did they find out I'm not reported Goodwill the risk or anyting finally. I got the permission to be resident of Hanover and my uncle try to get me into school there.

29:55 But the hangover was they did not accept the two years East German.

30:01 School

30:03 So I decided Well, you know and I I'm 16. They don't I have to start from the by the time I'm a teacher. I'm over 20 then I get married and I will never be a teacher or so. And another suspect was by uncle was a divorced man. He had only a studio apartment. I lift with a very close friend of his lovely couple with two sons and she left me because she had two sons and she always wanted a daughter.

30:32 But I did not want to burden.

30:37 To them. So I heard I have a cousin of threescore knows I don't know in Switzerland.

30:47 I made an effort to get her address. I wrote to her. I said find me a place in Bound as an opiate girl.

30:58 And she did and so I got a Visa for Switzerland and a working permit and I went to Switzerland.

31:09 So when you were doing all of this on your own traveling around going from country to Country.

31:16 Did you feel Brave?

31:20 When I was young I didn't know which Furious you could ask me anything to do. I would say never know. You know, I said I try I do it, you know, and if it's this is an instinct of survival, you know, you try to improve your life. You don't want.

31:40 And since I had to make my own decisions, I had also to take my own responsibility, right?

31:47 And did you stay in touch with your mother through all that time? Yes, eventually they let my mother go because my brother also escaped and my mother was already old and couldn't work anymore. And then the East Germans were not interested. They just had to pay their rent. No, then they pushed off.

32:07 And then my mother came to Hanover and lift a little while for her two sisters when my grandfather.

32:16 And she came to Switzerland to visit me to this couple is date with isopure go to a very lovely to her.

32:25 And but of course, I didn't want to be in Oprah girl for a long time. I could take shorthand and

32:34 And typing I went to night school and then I scan to paper at the newspaper everyday for jobs.

32:43 And one day I came across an announcement scanning girl look for the in physics Institute. I had no idea what it was.

32:53 But I applied.

32:58 I didn't hear from him didn't hear from me and meanwhile, I left this couple because I decided I need some money, you know as an opiate girl. I could only pocket money.

33:11 So I went sa90 to another couple in band.

33:17 Unfortunately, she was a mean person and he was an alcoholic and they had a six-year-old kid. I had to take care of and this woman. She confiscated my mail. So when the Institute answer. I never got.

33:33 And I was impatient and eventually I called in my lunch hour and said, you know, I applied I never heard from you so much time and it said what how come today you have an interview I said what today yesterday to you have an interview.

33:54 And this woman since she knew she has this letter. She read it. She locked me in.

34:03 And what I did I claimed climbed out the window on roof. Where is a razor bicycle shed and will need some from the bicycle and I made this interview to say physics Institute.

34:16 And I got the drop.

34:19 From then on my locris.

34:22 And my persistency paid off.

34:27 And so that when that happened you were how old

34:32 Nearly eighteen

34:35 So what does a scanning or let this physics Institute do I had to sit under microscope and look for?

34:46 Little Mark's or some little marks right to the

34:51 Did you feel that you that you had finally escaped in it? Your life was looking forward at that point. Yeah.

35:05 Well, I think we have to come back and talk about we were right at the point that we were.

35:12 You still at 5 minutes?

35:17 I'm going to I was going to say we got we have to come back again because we want to hear about the

35:22 The rest of your life, but would you like to tell us anything about up to that point when you look back how you feel about it or?

35:36 Well at that point I was since I was like a tumbleweed moving a lot from childhood on I kind of was missing a family.

35:50 And this probably drove me to a very early marriage.

35:55 And then my boss Doctor Winslow

36:01 Took me under his wings in every aspect.

36:05 I fell in love with him.

36:09 And because I sent myself my God, I'm a little I'm a woman fun and Tiny Village from East Germany. He is Doctor Winslow. He knows what life is you know, so I tried to admire him and see what's what he is because he was too leading a very Bohemian life. His friends were all artists and sireesh and Baron and Basel and stuff like this and the song anyway,

36:38 It sounds interesting siding.

36:46 When you look back before that, do you think about all this story? I mean your childhood and missing your mom and all that to think about it, or is it all back in the past?

36:58 I'm not nostalgic about it. You know, this is the effects of my life. You know, I'm very stoic about this. I'm also not a person who said I have to find my roots.

37:11 I say life is what comes you try to make the best possible for every situation you try to make the best possible and you make mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes, but you have to try to iron out your mistakes.

37:34 The kind of adults

37:41 No, I never I never thought about it.

37:48 As a child, that was very trusting.

37:51 Now as an adult, I'm not so trusting any more, you know.

37:55 And

37:59 I just look back at the whole and say.

38:03 Even this rough childhood and young years in East Germany and all this in the ends. I made a wonderful life for myself since I met my husband.

38:18 The father of his two beautiful daughters your second husband.

38:25 Does it does it make you now that you're you have a very different life here in the United States a different husband different additional family does all of that make you appreciate all the little things more. Do you think of course?

38:48 Thank you for telling off all this really a good story and very clear. So I know I've heard pieces of it but not so quite laid out so clearly it's nice to hear that.

39:05 Okay. Alright.