Linda Ginzel and Nancy Cowles

00:03 My name is Nancy Coles. I am 56 years old and today is July 16th, 2015 at the cultural center in Chicago and I have worked and known Linda for a long time. We work together at kids in danger.

00:22 My name is Linda cancel. I am 56 years old today is July 16th, 2015. We are in downtown Chicago and I'm here with Nancy Cole She is the executive director of a nonprofit organization that I found it with my husband.

00:43 Income 18 years ago and

00:49 And that is a very good friend.

00:54 Salinda, why don't we just start with the

00:59 How kids came to be want to tell me a little bit just briefly about about your family and and Danny.

01:09 So, let's see.

01:12 My husband and I are professors at the University of Chicago. And we at this point when was it down 1990?

01:23 61997 via that you know, we got two great jobs, but two great kids everything's perfect. Our life is just so perfect.

01:33 And on one of those perfect days.

01:37 I was a spring day and now it may actually May 12th 1998. I went to pick up Danny from his son.

01:49 Chicago Arlington Neighborhood Child Care Center home actually where he stayed and when I pulled up to the front of the house the police.

02:02 Madera police cars there and I thought well something must have happened in this neighborhood and I went up to get Danny and police officer open the door and said that I needed to go to the hospital.

02:14 There's been an accident.

02:18 And that my son had been taken to the hospital.

02:22 By the time we arrived he had already died.

02:29 So the what it happened is a crib a portable crib at his daycare.

02:37 I Collapse apparently he stood up in his crib and rocked on the rail and it folded with him in it and his head fell forward and

02:49 The top real strangled him. I'm so sorry every time you tell me I just think of the the horror of that day for any parent and it must have just seem to you like such a freak thing to have happened and well, you know, we did we actually thought it was just a freak accident with said how does a kid get strangled by a portable crib? I mean this must be a million and one accident that mean some kind of strange freak accident and we were actually a peace where she's at peace with the fact that our son died in this tragic freak random way. And after we buried Danny we read in the Chicago Tribune that in the newspaper that

03:33 He was a fifth child to die.

03:36 In this way to be strangled in a recalled crib crib that was known to be dangerous and other children who died exactly the same way as he had.

03:46 And that's when we found out that it wasn't an accident that killed her son that there was a systematic there was a reason that there was a flaw in the end in the system.

03:57 And that's what we decided.

04:00 Start kids in danger

04:04 Yeah, I mean Danny's having worked on this issue now with you for these years Danny's death really highlights all the Flies there were in the system then that someone could make a product and sell it without making sure it was safe that children who died in a product would not be recalled cuz well the crib was recalled. When Danny died three other children had died before they even did a recall and then that not enough was being done to to let parents know to let the the caregiver know about the recall and the fact that the product should never have to have been still in use had the company's done an effective recall. So it was pretty amazing. We could actually believe it when we found out that it's so many of these dangerous cribs had been produced in that they've been recalled. We didn't understand what even recall mint and then we found out that means very much that.

05:00 That pot millions of these products were out there and that, you know, the government knew the manufacturer new but you know Danny died in

05:09 Child Care Center that was license by the by the state by the government and they had inspected the crib 8 days before he died and they said it looks fine. I mean it didn't look broken. It didn't look dangerous. And so it's still hard to believe that that that this happened to our son, you know in this way and then when we found out that it wasn't just the crib strollers high chairs at Children's products weren't required to be tested before they were sold it that their children were dying and all sorts of ways that you couldn't even imagine in products that were intended to keep them safe. So that's why we started is in danger because we couldn't accept the status quo. We couldn't believe that

06:02 Didn't the United States of America in this country where we assume that?

06:08 Products are safe and they wouldn't be for sale that they wouldn't be on the Shelf if they hadn't been tested. We just couldn't believe that this wasn't true. And once we found out that that was true, we had to do something to change it. Yeah, it's still I think the hardest thing for people to understand when kid is talking to people that they just can't believe that they feel we're so over regulated that it's just not possible. We must not be we must not be telling them the whole story that we tell them that these products, you know, really even today we had we have made a lot of progress. But even today there's products I can come on to the market with no testing and it's just I think that's what's most shocking to people in really that the heart of kids Mission have to start how to do MBA start talking about kid in an organization and and what you might do so I don't think he don't last night and I don't think we ever sat down and said, you know

07:06 What should we do? Should we do anything? Can we afford this do we have the capacity? Do we have Financial Resources? Do we have the energy? What will it do to our family? What about Eli, you know Danny's brother? What does it mean to to take on this to take this on and never even asked these questions? We just knew that we couldn't accept the status quo and we just knew that we had to do whatever we could and I said that was what 17-18 years ago and we're still fighting the same fight and you know, Danny would be he be 19 years old this year and

07:48 So that's what we have we have kids in danger instead of Danny and

07:56 We just tried every day through our work as you know to try to help other family. Stay home and

08:07 To try to make a difference. I want to ask you a question. Okay, you know you've been with kids in danger for how many years did you say I've worked for kid for 14 years, but we start working together that year after Danny died 1999 a long time. So, you know the way that we met I know that you are from so I let me step back a minute. I think of myself when people ask me I always say, oh, I'm an accidental Advocate. I never I never set out to be an advocate to change anything. I was just happy being a wife or mom being a professor. You know, I was just really content with my life and then this happened and

08:53 I guess I became an advocate but you you've been an advocate all your life. How did you decide to do that? How did you decide to to be the kind of person goes out there and fights is kind of Fight You know, I think it's just the you know, starting in high school and college just wanting to see how change was made and you know, it's and I've worked on a ton of different is just before I came to kid I started right out of college is a Vista volunteer working for senior citizen rights as a 22 year olds. I got an early indication well-prepared now for when I am 65, but it just seems to me that there's just so much that needs advocating for and that's a change that needs to take place and really when I met you I was working for an organization that worked on a wide range of consumer issues and with other families like yours who loved one had been killed or injured through someone else.

09:53 Is negligence or a bad product or a bad workplace in something about meeting you Linda's I'm sure many people tell you and your life just made me want to see what I could do to change the situation cuz it's you said it just seemed unbelievable that and certainly not with parents expect when you go into a children's store and you're buying that crib or stroller for your child. You just assume it's safe or else it would not be on that store shelf and really the work of kid has been to make that true. And now for those products for strollers cribs high chairs. It is true that you can't sell them now without a strong thing. And so I think part of the the pole of advocacy as you can really see what difference you can make in the world and and you can make it for people like you and boss and other families who don't even know that kid is help them because their child stayed safe. So that's really what brought me to to work for kid and I have to say when you and I first

10:53 Together on that legislation in Springfield to to do again things. You wouldn't think you needed legislation to say that if the government has recalled a product store shouldn't sell it and it shouldn't be in childcare. He was really the first bill. I'd worked on in Springfield that passed almost unanimously very quickly. And so I realize the strength of having a working with you and really I have never looked back, you know, Nancy. I never I think I try as best I can to say, thank you.

11:24 But I want to use this opportunity to say, thank you.

11:28 I don't know. I don't know what we would have been able to do without you and you know, I think about you all the time. I think about the fact that you are so talented and smart and capable and you could be something else and yet without you know, I think people people are always surprised to find out that he is in danger. We are the only you know, nonprofit group that really focuses on children's products safety and we have such a strong voice in DC and where the source that the media goes to and people don't believe that we have a budget is about $250,000 a year. And the only reason that we could do it is because of you. I know we have a lot of volunteers, but thank you Nancy. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to work with you and your family and the rest of the kid Community. I think that you know, I can remember as a mom thinking that you know if you have to go to work.

12:28 Everyday and leave your kids. It's good to do it for something so important.

12:33 You know, the one thing that we did together was this legislation that's named for Danny. I wanted to say a few I wanted to talk a little bit about that. I know I never had any write a bill or to pass a law or when we met and you took me to Springfield. How is tell people the story that you literally like took me by the hand and said give him this piece of paper telling what happened to Danny then you took me by the hand to the next person. So you say that we know it passed unanimously it was because of you wasn't because of me was just the vehicle for for this and that was our first experience but then it took so many years for us to get the federal law passed. How many years did you work on that law? We first introduced at Law in 2001 with congressman schakowsky from here in Chicago and it finally became a law in 2008. So really a decade after Danny died.

13:33 Danny's law was passed and again the very simple message that children's products should have to meet tough standards before they can be put into the marketplace and you know, it's legislation that shouldn't have been needed. Someone should have thought of it beforehand, but it's made a huge difference in terms of safety. Everything from Cribs To strollers high chairs that has a huge impact on things like lead in toys. He. Children are measurably safer because of the work of kids and and and you and blowouts really taking on and moving from Danny's death into something that keeps other families from ever knowing the situation the grief that you guys have faced.

14:21 You know, we were thinking about the past.

14:26 Is this year's that have have gone by since Danny died in?

14:32 Someone was asking me, you know.

14:35 Why is it that how did we find out the information that we did about the fact that the product had been tested and that five of the children had died in the same brand crib and why is it that the public doesn't know this information and how can that be?

14:52 I know we were talking about.

14:56 The fact that we we had this lawsuit against the manufacturer and

15:04 You asked me once why about the lawsuit in?

15:09 You know how we really thought is how could this happen? And how can we get answers? How could we how can we know that this happened to Danny? And then it happened other kids and it no one no one knows. Why how do we how do we find out? That's why that's why we we decided in try to

15:33 To get answers

15:35 Yeah, and I think the legal system is as you know, it is hard for a family to go through and there's a lot of roadblocks put into the way and you and baz really stayed the course and you did settle the case but without agreeing to see all the documents with so many families are are forced into and that information is really what has opened people's eyes dead kind of a cosine you mention the manufacturer of the product but it in fact was sold under different name than the company that made it and that company was trying to take no responsibility for the fact that they'd allow their name to be put on a product without even making sure that it was safe. So I think in your case and so many cases it's really our legal system that does provide answers and hopefully some accountability so that it's not just the cost a business doing business to have products that kill children.

16:30 What happened after do you put aloe review because it had a lawsuit against the company that made that crave you throw. So so

16:47 We

16:51 So we thought that it was just this random freak accident and 10 when we read in the newspaper that Danny was the fifth child to to die in this brand crib and that there were four or five other brands that had exactly the same design flaw and that these products were out there. They been recalled but recalled

17:14 Does it really mean any sitting out with regard to knowing whether these products were still in people's homes and and and being used by parents and caregivers and grandparents had no idea that their child can literally be killed in this crib. And so we had a friend who was a lawyer and he said that the way that we would be able to find out how and why this happened is that we needed to do a lawsuit never even thought about doing a lawsuit. What would what would that do Danny was gone and there was nothing that was going to bring Danny back and everyone was saying all going to put it behind you put it behind you. You don't need this is too much, you know, just don't, you know get on with your life and that I thought was it mean to put it behind me. My son is dead. How will I ever know why he died?

18:10 So we decided to do the lawsuit because her son was dead and we wanted to know why and how good it happened. How could how could that you know our son title to picture Linkin Park in a crib that was inspected 8 days before his death.

18:28 Make any sense to us.

18:32 And then the process went on for years and I attended every deposition except the lawyers didn't want me to go to the corner step decision. And so I respect that I didn't go to the corners to position but I went everywhere I go. I tried to listen and understand every everything that was being said about how that product was designed how it wasn't tested out with Mark is how was told. How was recalled? What wasn't done and this is what fuels my

19:05 My I know anger is not really the right word my passion. I don't know what the word is my need to change the system just couldn't accept that. This happened to Daddy in the morn boy learned about how easily it happened. How mad I was just a matter? Of course. It's just how business is done and how how how products are made. It's just Commerce and then the government and their lack of capacity to deal with this and I always said the Danny's neck. He was triangle. His neck was caught between Commerce and politics that that's how my son died at the intersection between Commerce and politics.

19:49 And so that was the impetus and those facts that came out through the those depositions that are still public and that people are able to use in addition to kind of informing the whole debate about product safety and giving us information. You also worked with others to turn those into business school case is so that that information hopefully will inform future Business Leaders to to figure out when you're faced with these kind of business decisions on whether you hire someone without an engineering degree to engineer a crib or whether you how you respond to those first reports of problems, you know, hopefully other Business Leaders will make different choices in the future I teach MBA and executive send. These are people that aren't out there trying to make pet decision rather kill children. And so the the notion that these are my students either

20:49 These are the people in my class that

20:53 In any way that we can reach an educate. I'm I'm a professor. That's what I do. I'm an educator I teach so we try to reach people with this message every way we can including in the classroom and

21:07 In City Hall in Congress in the newspaper, you know, our mission is to educate Advocate and promote safer products in them were the only group that's really out there doing this and again Nancy we wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't for you.

21:28 I feel like Denny's Legacy is in large part.

21:33 Out there in and real and true because of how much heart you bring two kids in danger. Well, I thank you, but I think it's all so, you know just you mentioned just it's such a multi-faceted problem. There's no one solution. So just as we advocate for many different ways, we have everything from your business school cases and trying to do that. We work with engineering students. Whatever way we can think to move this issue forward, whether it's educating students, whether it's working directly on setting new standards, whether it's the, you know, putting in requests to cpsc for documents so we can see how they're doing their job and let other people know that it's just a constant looking for new avenues and then maybe if we're not like a lot of organizations with one single Focus, Although our issue is a single focus and pretty narrow, but we trying to approach it from from as many angles as we can to make a big difference and part of what has helped us.

22:33 Do that. It's really, you know, the way that people want to help when they hear Danny story when they hear other children's stories have been killed by these products and just talk a little bit about how it's been a lot of your friends and colleagues and people who step up and in each their way, you know do what they can and in many cases. It's a huge thing they do for kid to move move the mission forward cats really interesting how to speak it using the word Community. You know, when Danny died, we had a Shiva we open our home to people to come in and down.

23:13 And be with us in our in our

23:31 Soak is in danger really has been and is a community of a Grassroots effort. I mean we talked about the fact that we have really small budget, you know fundraising is really hard for started this organization without well. All we have to do is just let people know about this and he wants people to know about this in any trouble raising money and then we learned that the other place a good causes out there. There's a lot of things it that people need to know about and and so it is really hard to raise money. But what does things with regard to community that we were thinking about is that people have stepped up in like big and small ways from the day daddy died until now, you know 19 years later he

24:17 We had the appointment Danny first. I remember one of my colleagues put up the first kids in danger website and we started Kid 1 months after Danny died 1 months after we realize when we found out that this is a systemic problem. This is not just one crib that strangled one child in Lincoln Park in Chicago. And so all our friends just chipped and we had someone to actually hold a fundraiser for us from my son's preschool. People did public service announcements people had Billboards across the Midwest about recalled products and we had I don't even have any

25:01 I can't even recount all the ways that people have have stepped up and you don't makes me think also that if there's anybody out there listening for once could cause that they can really

25:13 Make a difference. I hope they'll learn about kids in danger because this is really we're really small organization is has a big job and we've been doing

25:26 Everyday with everything we have and it's really worthy of of of people's heart. And so I hope maybe it's one thing our interns of my kids always say that they so appreciate about us that we there and our donors to write their contribution makes a huge difference, you know, you give $100 or $1,000 to a giant organization and it's a drop in the bucket that kid, we are just so thankful for couple hours a help designing a flyer help reaching out to your neighbor who's a congressman but there's just so many ways that people can help and they love that what they do have such a big impact. I think that's attended a small nonprofits that we have a lot of things that need doing. So if people have a good idea they could probably we probably need it a little bit about Marla. That was one of the biggest things that happen and I'll write her book a night. So a friend of ours Marla felcher

26:26 She was a marketing professor and decided to become an investigative journalist, basically and partly it was through her experience with investigating. What happened with Danny. She wanted to try to find out how could how could this happen? How could you know this? So second child of her friends both of whom were professors living in Chicago? How can he died in a crib that was recalled know how many years I have five years earlier and that it killed other children and that no one knew and then and it was just I think she also couldn't wanted to understand and so she you know,

27:10 Kill 5 yes. Yes. He was the fifth child to die in this particular brand but there were other 12 child to die in the crib that design but the brands of the brand was Place Royal and five children died. When a Playskool brand crib collapsed on them, but there were five other brands with different names and he was the 12th child to die from the same problem. So all of these crabs have the same design flaw that allow the children to collapse and while they were in the crib.

27:47 And and so all these children were dying and nothing was being done.

27:54 So Nancy the first one that this was the first product to play school Travel Lite. They were the designers have it. It went on the market in the early 90s and within a few months the first child died by so by 93 3 children had died and they finally recalled it but by that time these other brands already making the same product. So by the time Danny died in 1998, he was the 12th child to die to date we know of at least 20 children have died in cribs with this one design and I can tell you I go to to rummage sales big church rummage sales in tanks and still all these years later. I still see sometimes those cribs for sale at second hand stores or online. So the problem with children's product safety is that it has such a long life. We all use something we use our crib maybe use it for three or four children or we pass it along to somebody else strollers.

28:54 Things those things get passed along for years and years. They're not with the original owner. So this defects just have a long life out there and it's rare that they're even recalled. Even when there is a defect so that parents have no way to know that it's not safe.

29:15 It's like a portable crib. So you think about it was one of the first kind of now we call him by the their kind of known like kleenexes by the brand name Pack & plays. That's a Graco makes that that one was not recalled for this Hazard, but there are things, you know, mesh sided portable cribs that you can pack up and take with you to Grandma's house or traveling son was not my side at this was a hard the one that got hit hard kind of case yet had the hard but for Tambor put the sides were match. So it was kind of an early thing that they moved away from that designed to the kind that kind of Club. More compact Lee and as such I think Lindsay said earlier, it's just you know, this is the product that where most familiar with an obviously a private child sleeps in you really want to make sure it's safe because you leave them alone. No point is the best used to be safe enough to be left alone while you hopefully get a few minutes, you know to do whatever it is parents or caregivers need to do.

30:15 But it happens with strollers and highchairs and kid, you know has on our website a sexually call Family voices and families just like Linden bosses whose children have been killed or injured by products that should never have made it to the market in the first place. And then when they were found effective weren't effectively removed from people's homes a child care. So it's an ongoing problem, even though we do have new laws in place. We have new standards in place, but it's still at you know, every day. There's a whole new generation of parents, right? There's a whole new group of new first-time parents. So in new products that are recalled products that are recalled everyday can buy it yesterday. It's brand new. And then today it's recalled and you know, how do you know that? So it's it's not like buying a car where you can kind of learn and you have educated consumers usually just buy these products once so it's a it's a big issue and we you know, we trying as I said tackle it from every

31:15 Direction Peta and part of what keeps kid going is is really the stories in the the Legacy we feel for these children to make their lives matter, even though they were so short to make sure that they you know that other children are are living in fulfilling their lives because of the work of kid in their names.

31:38 Danny was 16 months old when he was killed and

31:46 If you know it was so he was such a sweet kid to I mean we think about him we miss him more and more everyday his brother. Eli was five when he died and there isn't a day that goes by when we don't miss him and realize that our family we have in a we have two more children since Daddy died with an amazing all boys couldn't figure out how to do girls are all boys. But we really feel like despite the fact that we have this amazing family and this wonderful life our families forever incomplete because he's gone and we have kids in danger instead of Danny, but you know, we would do anything to have Kenny going to say we're poor substitute. That's for sure.

32:43 He has funeral reach out to other people on Nancy was talking about the fact that there's family voices section on the kids in danger website where we have families and parents who who want to share their stories, but it's very difficult to get parents to share their stories about dead children.

33:06 For lots of reasons and so it's it's a really hard thing to to go public about and to talk about you know, what's interesting about having a dead kid is that

33:18 People always say things like oh, well, you know, I wouldn't have I never left my kid alone or I would have used that kind of product or will that would have happened, you know to my kid and because we all need to feel like it wouldn't happen to us. We all need to feel that way. It's a psychological is a way to protect ourselves, but this can happen to anybody and this is partly why we felt so I felt like this could happen to us. It could happen to anyone and we have a responsibility to do our best to make sure it doesn't happen to you and

33:54 So

33:56 It's hard and

33:58 And every family deals with it in such different ways. There are a lot of those families her just so thankful to found kid to talk to you Linda to sort of feel like they're not alone. And there's there's other family said that try even as you said, it's impossible to kind of not talk about it. Not not do anything public. There's other people who are silenced through their own settlements with companies were there in order to to move on with their lives they agree to a settlement and their voices are silenced and that's part of what kids were all for them might be his two to have their child story live on even if they can no longer share it with the general public. So it's just you know, I've really she said I'ma intentional Advocate but really have learned so much about this field, which I've been so fortunate not to you no have myself of being able to work with these families and just see the incredible toll these desk tag and especially given his is

34:58 I was booked said it's not an accident. These are almost always things that companies. Somebody could have done something that would have prevented it from happening and I don't mean the parents. I mean the manufacturers and The Regulators of the products.

35:22 So is Linda said in 2008 we passed Danny's law which requires that for juvenile Nursery products crib strollers high chairs, the government adopts strong standards and then require manufacturers to test have independent testing to those standards. So we are helping to monitor that we are working to continue to educate parents. So we have programs we go out and talk to child care providers because they're able to not only make sure their own facilities don't have recalled products are unsafe products, but be able to pass that information on to parents. We have the kid action team where we give people a voice when they can help call a legislator or advocate for a safety issue. We're really looking to the Future 2, you know, our goal was always to put ourselves out of business to get to the point where dangerous products are no longer entering the market that enough is being done to get the unsafe products out of Holmes and childcare. We're not there yet, but that's really her long-term.

36:23 It we're working toward the day when we don't have to work together anymore. And then we have to talk about gas and we can move on to a two other things, but it's so you know, it's such a

36:42 You know, it's amazing to see the difference. I mean night from everything from going into stores and seeing little labels on toys at the they are cpsi compliant, which is Danny's law and knowing that that's their because we made them put it there. They we made them test those products to hearing from families who, you know learned about a recall and got rid of a product. It's a you know, it's it's

37:12 The organization has had a huge impact and will continue to have that impact until we solve the problem.

37:24 I have

37:38 As I sit here crying.

37:46 Potting soil

37:57 What kind of like what is a message that you would have for them in general? I think that you just have to decide how you want to honor the memory of your child and that's going to be different for every family for every parent and I think that no one can tell you how to do that. You can talk to people people can give you advice, you know, their organizations. We were helped very much by an organization called heartlight which councils bereaved family so both the children and the parents and they help us with things. Like what do you do on the on the birthday of your dead child? How do you mark how do you celebrate a birthday? And what is your family do to remember so there are there are people who have gone before?

38:42 Who came before me and who gave me advice but I think that everyone needs to to decide for themselves how they want to keep their dead child in their life. And and it's very bittersweet because you know, people will say things to you like oh, you know, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to bring him up and it's like after while there's not a lot knew about your child who's gone. So you're happy for the opportunity to bring him up. At least I am on some people really don't want to talk about their dead child. So there's not good advice that you can get lots of advice, but for me to tell a mother how she should remember her child or how she should think about

39:28 Being productive or making a difference or what the legacy of her child should be I don't have any advice.

39:41 100% I felt as I said, you know my husband I wouldn't think so. Should we do this with this be good for us? Will it will it cause as you know, will it be detrimental to our family time? Should we going to do other things that we put all our own money into it? And it was in our basement for years before we had the opportunity to to hire. I mean have to have a space where it wasn't in our home and for us, you know, we decided that we couldn't accept this and we wanted to do something. So it's kept Daniel Ivan in our daily conversations every day. I don't know if he would have stayed in our conversations if we didn't have kids in danger. We would have probably found a different way.

40:31 Set anything else that you want to mention that I did not ask you.

40:36 I don't I don't think so. I just wanted to make sure that I said Thank You publicly near did and even if it is never even if no one's here is ever hear this except yours. I wanted this to be my public. Thank you. Thank you.