Doris Fogel, Becca Charen, and Debbie Charen

Recorded June 22, 2017 Archived June 22, 2017 40:58 minutes
0:00 / 0:00
Id: chi002146

Description

Doris Fogel (83) is interviewed by her granddaughter, Becca Charen (15), and daughter, Debbie Charen (51), about her experience in a WWII internment camp, her arrival in the United States, and their close family bond.

Subject Log / Time Code

Doris Fogel (83) describes the unconventional, but effective school she attended during her eight years in an internment camp in Shanghai.
DF explains how she and her mother were able to immigrate to the U.S. and describes the financial challenges they faced.
DF shares her memory of learning the war had ended and remembers what it was like when American planes bombed Shanghai.
DF shares one of her favorite memories of Becca Charen (15) and calls her daughter, Debbie Charen (51), her best friend.
DF talks about traveling to schools across the country to speak and share her story.
DF and DC tell funny stories about BC.
DF talks about her mother.

Participants

  • Doris Fogel
  • Becca Charen
  • Debbie Charen

Recording Locations

Chicago Cultural Center

Venue / Recording Kit


Transcript

StoryCorps uses Google Cloud Speech-to-Text and Natural Language API to provide machine-generated transcripts. Transcripts have not been checked for accuracy and may contain errors. Learn more about our FAQs through our Help Center or do not hesitate to get in touch with us if you have any questions.

00:02 I'm Debbie Charron age 51 today is June 22nd 2017 and I'm at the storycorps in Chicago at the cultural center. And I'm here with my daughter Becca and my mom Taurus, although I don't really car doors. Hi. My name is Beckett Aaron. I'm 15 years old. Today's date is June 22nd of 2017. I'm a storycorps in Chicago. And Debbie is my mom and Doris is my grandma.

00:33 Hi, I'm Doris Fogel and I'm 83 years old.

00:38 And today is June 22nd 2017 and I'm here with my daughter Debbie and my granddaughter Becca.

00:49 Grandma when and where were you born? I was born on May 3rd 1934 in Berlin, Germany.

00:59 And where did you grow up?

01:01 First four years were spent in Berlin and then in 1939 we

01:12 Okay.

01:17 We went to Shanghai.

01:20 How did you end up in Shanghai?

01:23 Well in 19 by 19 39 America had already closed their doors for immigrants. And so the only place left for us to go with Shanghai.

01:38 And so how many years were you there?

01:41 How does there for 8 years and I had what my 13th birthday on the ship Coming to America.

01:50 What was it like there in Shanghai?

01:53 Well, you know growing up we were in an internment camp.

01:59 Most of the populace population really doesn't know that 20,000 Jews were interned in Shanghai because it was the only place left in the world where people could go to escape Hitler. You didn't need a visa and you didn't need an affidavit. And as I was growing up there was a young.

02:27 Wealthy Jewish philanthropist from Hong Kong by the name of source. Could Dory who built it a school for the children and

02:38 The interesting part about that is that you know, we had we learned how to speak English. We learn how to speak French we didn't have school books, but our parents made our books and we really were well-educated which is in an amazing thing and I always tell students that at the age of 13 wearing all of 65 lb

03:11 I was tested by the Board of Education and I could have been a sophomore in high school. Wow, and my mom who was herself an educated woman in Germany said where does a thirteen-year-old belong and the answer was eighth grade? And so that's really where I started my education. So you keep talking about your mom. What was your relationship like with her and your father when my father died when I was a year old, so I never knew him.

03:43 And I had as you might expect I had a very close relationship with my mother and yet

03:53 I also had a close relationship with my aunt.

03:58 She was not my mother sister. She and her husband are the people that took care of my mom and me when my dad died and the interesting part about that is my mother was the dreamer my aunt was the Practical woman and it's because of her that I was always street-smart and learned how to really take care of myself.

04:23 How would you describe yourself as a child?

04:27 As a child, I think you were happy by the hard for you to get over Shanghai when I get over but no you never get over that but no, I was happy. I made a lot of friends and

04:42 I was athletic and

04:47 You know you lie. I enjoy playing with the Chinese kids in my lane and made a lot of friends, which really it you know, it was a testament to I think I told you all before it was after 50 years of being here in the United States because of the internet and because of social media 15 of my classmates who live literally around the world have found each other and we've gotten together in years gone by it's kind of stopped the last two or three years, but for a lot of years we met once a year in a different country and a different city and the interesting thing about that. Is that a lot of us, I think

05:42 Shut out.

05:45 In our brains a lot of the things that happen, but when you get together with people that were your classmates and you live together, you'll say do you remember you do you remember and as I knew we were coming here something picked in my mind that I had so totally forgotten. I was 4 years old and this aunt and uncle kind of took care of me and there used to be and I don't know if your mom even remembers this the little sandwiches. Well, I was a bad either never ate very much and this Aunt would make tiny little sandwiches and I can picture myself squeezing behind a table in her apartment and having those little sandwiches. I hadn't thought about that name in years.

06:36 So then when you came to America, where did you live? Well first place was in Peoria, Illinois because in

06:48 Right after the war was over.

06:53 Mini

06:55 Well to do Jewish people and I'm sure this happened in the non-jewish world as well.

07:03 Would sponsor people to come to America and because this aunt and uncle had a cousin in Peoria that sponsored them.

07:16 They asked these people to find a sponsor for my mother and I because they would not leave Shanghai until they found a sponsor for us and

07:29 So that is really where my life in America began in Peoria. And when you when you lived in Peoria, where did you live? Well first place we lived was in one room.

07:42 And you know, I'd age 13-14 that's very difficult because not so much that I shared a bed with my mother but

07:52 I can see in your family which is so wonderful your children have friends over.

07:59 I could never do that.

08:02 So, you know you ate there you suck there and you went down the hall to take a bath.

08:10 And it was difficult and then the second place and this is something that people don't talk about, you know that they don't talk about what happened to you and also times were different when the war was when it World War II is over there were no food stamps. There were none of the social things that we can do for people that we bring in now and so

08:35 First job. My mother had here's a college-educated woman. She weld a cans in the factory until she passed out because she had a daughter to support.

08:46 I had a newspaper route a month after I came to the states cuz I wanted some money in my pocket so that you know that part of our life was pretty difficult, but you know, I quit Zoloft.

09:06 Skip question now.

09:15 Oh absolutely to this day. I can remember the day that the war was over in the American planes flying overhead and dropping leaflets down that the war was over and you know, I was just about 13 then so almost a teenager and you know, we grew up very quickly and oh my goodness. We we raced down to the docks to meet the American ships because and one of the first things that I looked for when I came to America, we're Hershey bars that are not very big but very thick then I realize that these were part of the rations. This was nothing but it was settled in his store, you know, and

10:07 You know life and in life in Shanghai was so difficult. One of the things that I tell the kids when I speak about, you know, some of my experiences is the day that we left Shanghai.

10:22 I thought my bed was going to walk out by itself because it was so infested with bedbugs, you know, and I wondered but the day ever come that I would have a bed of my own.

10:37 So what's your best memory of childhood my best memory of childhood probably?

10:44 My Early Childhood you talking about?

10:50 Being with my friends when we didn't have to go in Bonkers because the sirens went off cuz the bombs were falling and playing sports and

11:08 That's it. That's that's about it in Shanghai. Do you have a worst memory of your childhood? Yeah the day. I think the worst day was July 17th 1945 and I can assure you you can ask any Survivor of that, you know part of our experience. It was the day that the Americans bombed Shanghai Unfortunately. They had to get a station that was located near our camp.

11:47 And when the bombs were falling I remember being in school and hiding under our desks and then the all-clear siren went off a couple minutes later, but it was a couple of days before we were reunited with our parents and I think that was probably the worst of the worst because I mean we were children so we weren't attacked by the Japanese as some older people if they wanted to leave the area the compound there was a man by the name of Goya who was the meanest

12:27 So be you'd ever won a fine and I mean he could poke you in the rear just as easy as letting you leave so that you know their varying stories of adults and children.

12:42 Who has been the biggest influence on your life and what lessons or lesson to that person teach you are we talking about now my adult life sure well.

12:58 I suppose one of the

13:03 Big things is the strength that my mother had to

13:09 Bring me up. She was a single mom working when from you no job to job till she finally got something in her field cuz she was in accounting and again my aunt because she was so strong and then people that I met here in America and one of them after I got married and moved to Fort Wayne. I think a Woman by the name of Betty Stein. We just celebrated her hundredth birthday and is still a very vital person with a great influence in my life. She pushed me on and on to do because she said, you know, you can do it your intelligence and also

13:59 I almost I hate to use the word dedicated but more unless I did because of the people that were good to my mom and me.

14:10 There aren't too many organizations that I haven't volunteered for in certainly in my 50 some years in Fort Wayne and that was always part of my my life doing.

14:25 Good, and I see that now replicated in your mother and you

14:32 So you talked about your husband. When did you meet him? And who is he he was I met him here. I was working here in Chicago. That's another thing here. My mother is in a foreign land. She's alone and she's working and you know, I always had hopes that I would meet a Jewish man stay in my religion and most kids that lived in Peoria move to Chicago. That was a big city. So in 1960 at 8 a.m.

15:11 Lecture by jus I met my husband who was an attorney in Fort Wayne and that was I don't know. I think it was a

15:23 Around the early part of December and then that following July I was married and he passed away 9 and 1/2 years ago.

15:34 And as you know

15:38 I retired from my job as the executive director of the Jewish Federation just before I turned 80 couple months before I turned 80 and my three children your mom and her brothers decided. No family left in Fort Wayne. It was time.

15:57 To move back to Chicago, you know I missed I missed all of

16:03 My grandchildren's growing up but I didn't miss it really in there very early ages. I was there for almost every birth and once a month I used to drive here to see you guys. What's your favorite memory of me of you? I'd like I know the birthday party memories you were three years old and I took you to church as you know, I took you to a birthday party and I'm ready to go in because your brother and his sister very difficult to leave them anywhere because they were kind of shy and cry. It's okay. Do I know how you can leave?

16:46 And that and also the other

16:50 Favorite memory is when I knew I was coming to Chicago and you guys knew I was coming and I'd be as I was driving up when you were little bitty kids running out Grandma's Here Grandma's here and hugging you and and being able which is something teenagers don't do anymore. But when you were little I had that affection from all of you kids.

17:16 And it's very special.

17:19 What about with my mom? What's your favorite memory of her? She's my best friends.

17:27 Name one

17:32 I don't know what to get her really don't Mom. What's your favorite memory of spending time with Grandma?

17:41 It's kind of funny. It's almost I think one of my favorite things is it's now like being older and having her here.

17:55 You were the one that wasn't just cry it is I know.

18:10 That a text or a phone call would bring all of you guys here, but I have tried very hard not to be a burden.

18:22 On any one of my kids but it's automatic to reach out to you because you've been so good to me.

18:31 You tell me is it is and if there's something you don't like you don't pussyfoot around tell me Mom. You shouldn't say that Mom. You shouldn't do that. But that's okay. That's okay because it makes me a better person and try to be honest.

18:54 It's nice having you down the street. So I'm a very lucky woman. Most of my friends have their kids spread out all over the country and you made it possible. You made it possible that I could be in the same city with you and your brothers and my eight grandchildren some of which I'm closer to you than others.

19:21 What do you think the most important lessons are the you've learned in your life?

19:29 Be honest.

19:31 And look out.

19:34 For people that have less than you because once

19:39 You are hungry. I was hungry once and

19:44 It hurts me deeply to see people that are hungry that I can't afford.

19:58 The basic things of life and I've always tried, you know to be in my ability to be as generous as I can be and you have no idea how good it makes me feel to see the things that you do you Becca and knew your mother with the refugees that have come in the things that you do with children the love that you have for doing good and animals it is

20:34 These are things that you don't like spray. I can express but in my heart it makes me sleep really easier to fight.

20:47 What do you want to ask?

20:53 What are you proud of stuff in your life? What's my proudest? Well, I suppose of all the awards that I've been given.

21:07 As I thought you were there you came just before I retired. I was given the Sagamore of the Wabash, which is the highest honor an Indiana resident can get from a governor and it was for all the volunteer work and all the speaking that I do. I really don't think that there are too many schools in Indiana that I haven't spoken to and as you know, I'm on the National Speakers Bureau and of the Federation system, and I have spoken all over the country and

21:47 I am proud to know that you know at 83. I am one of the youngest survivors in this I tell the kids who's going to be left to tell the story when we're gone and we're dying every single day. I mean, I hope to be around for a few more years, but this is what's happening. And so as you also know from the minute, I came to Chicago back to Chicago. I signed up with the Holocaust Museum and to talk to kids particularly kids because they need to know if at all possible not out of a textbook, but from a person of what it was like to be deprived to not you know, I have food and

22:39 When when you guys are growing up you and your brothers?

22:45 I had a thing.

22:47 About no hand me downs.

22:51 I want you guys to have everything that I didn't have I see how wonderful it is with you guys. Are you wearing your sister's clothes or but he's a further or getting that's wonderful. But at that time, that's all I ever had where hands me down. And so I didn't want that for my children and fortunately I was able.

23:19 To do that not that there's anything wrong with it for goodness sakes, but that was important to me as you guys were growing up.

23:29 Has there been like a question or an action that a student has done towards you during one of your speeches that you'll never forget or been there been not real not real tough, but they've been one stirred a memory for it after I talk talked about the bed walking in off about so first of all you realize for 8 years. I slept in a bed with my mother.

24:03 And then coming to America I slept in the bed with my mother well to this day.

24:09 When I go to bed at night whether it is a single bed or a big bed or no matter what I sleep on the edge of my bed. Never gave it much thought that's just how I sleep and one of the students asked me. How big was your bed in Shanghai and I realized it was very small and I thought you know, that's why I sleep the way I do and

24:37 A tougher some questions are I tried to keep politics and religion out of when I speak and one of the questions that I was asked recently by a student in Moline, Illinois.

24:54 During the question-and-answer. He asked me.

24:59 I don't remember the exact question, but it has refugees and it the word refugees and I wanted to be very careful what I said and all I could say to him was if the gentleman who sitting in the white house now would have been president in 1947. I would not be here.

25:21 And that was that and at that same the at that same talk another student asked me how I felt about the Israeli soldiers and the Palestinians and again, I didn't want to get into a long discussion till all I said was if the Palestinians attack the Israelis the soldiers have a right to defend themselves and three teachers came up to me afterwards and said that was such a thoughtful answer because you know, I I don't don't like to get into that.

26:05 And you know life's been good to me in America and I I tell this to the kids you work hard you get an education and you have support from your family. There is nothing.

26:19 That you can't do. I mean look where I came from and look what I have done with my life.

26:26 So it's so, you know, I'm independent sure. I lean on your mother and I still waiting on you guys to a certain extent but

26:37 I've learned to live alone and I make the best of that. You know, you become I have never been one of these survivors that has a chip on her shoulder.

26:51 You know, why did why did I survive and somebody else didn't well, there is a God and he looked out for me.

27:02 How has your life been different than what you'd imagine that to me?

27:09 Well, I don't think I can really quite that to the extent that I would like to.

27:22 I really I really don't think I would like to talk about that.

27:30 How would you like to be remembered? Although we don't you're not going to die for a while cuz I keep thinking you know, who's going to take what how are they going to get rid of everything that I have found a cure candy just as a caring person who loved her children and grandchildren very much in it that did some good that educated some people and that helped unfortunate people as much as possible because I certainly tried in my lifetime to do that and continue to do that, you know.

28:20 It's very difficult. Really a lot of times in a fight when I get dressed in the morning or I do something and I think you're really 83 years old people always say you don't look like you're it III you don't sound like you're a D3 or sometimes. I feel like I made a threat depending on what day of the week it is. So that's you know, I'm just very happy to be here and to have family that I knows cares about me. That's the most I have no family.

28:50 You know your grandmother and I were the only ones left out of entire family. Everybody was Kim and so for me to be able to be in a place for my whole family is that's the most important thing in life for me.

29:10 Okay.

29:12 Do you have any questions for us? Well in many ways you are you're very caring you really and truly are and I have that in my head all the time. I know I can call on you.

29:40 You said something to me? I don't even know if you remember and that is the day that you all came to Fort Wayne to help me pack up.

29:51 Yes, he I'm here for years. So you were 11 then.

29:58 And you guys were leaving and I was kind of

30:02 Will you be a little bit when you got in the car and his mother started the car you sent me a text that said?

30:12 I know you're sad right now, but just remember I am always there for you and I have never forgotten that and you have

30:28 That goes good with the Weeping out.

30:31 I still have a little in that card that you wrote. It's in that you know, the black and white thing that I put my contacts in when I travel so you on an index card when I was so I went home to Fort Wayne the day before you guys came for pest funeral.

30:49 How old are you? How long does a dead. 9 1/2 years ago? You said dear Mom? I'm so sorry that your dad that has Becca and I have boxes of pictures and things you know what those are important things and what else have you gotten like if you know if you don't have that I just feel that I am.

31:29 Gone a long road and I am very lucky to have what I have may not be wealth and money but by God, I have a wonderful family and that's that's the most important not liking for anyting another funny story about so, I don't know if you remember but when we got to the temple, we walked in and the casket was on the front of the temple and you had never seen a casket before and you said what's that? That's that's what pop has in and you said really loud and it was really quiet. You said there's no way you can breathe in that box.

32:05 Yeah, I don't remember things very well, but I won't be doing that. So that was another there's a lot of funny stuff.

32:27 What am I well one of my memories and I just talked about it the other night to your cousin Annie you were three years old four years old maybe and we were

32:40 Their house for a brunch they were living on that other house on the patio and you guys were also playing on the swings and you weren't talking very much and somebody got hurt.

32:57 And somehow you made it crawling and running over to where all the adults were and you made it known to us in your own way that somebody over there was hurt. I can see it in front of me do number when I'm talking. Yeah. Yeah, you got it now. So yeah, so I'm just I'm just glad that kind of your final chapter can be where all of us are together so that we can just have and I'll just normal Sunday night dinner. Absolutely regular I depend on you, but I don't try to infringe.

33:50 On your time or your life, you know, if something bothers me, I'll call and I have to tell you you have got to be one of the luckiest women that I know are you have to bring him I have to I have to he is I have said this a thousand times every woman that has a daughter should have her son-in-law like my son-in-law. He's the best he is the best father husband and son-in-law. I mean if I say anything to him that I might need or want just abstract. He's there.

34:30 And I told you I don't know if I ever told you but he wrote me a letter from the wedding. He wrote me a letter saying I know you gave me your most precious gift in life and I will always protect her and you don't forget things like I mean, that's and he is just the best of the best.

34:52 It was not about that. I know that.

35:00 I really do and not everybody has that kind of relationship with their in-laws or their children even.

35:13 Any questions more from you Becca XO

35:21 Edith

35:24 Sure, Edith warshafsky and it's spelled w a r s c h a w s k i was so proud of her last night. What year was Grandma born 1905 in Berlin in Berlin educated in Berlin and did she have siblings? Yes. She had a brother who?

35:52 She had a brother who went to what was then Palestine became Israel.

36:00 Marriage and

36:05 Somehow when Grandma came to I mean during the war there was not much you no correspondence because letters were always looked at by the government and when Grandma came to America

36:21 He leaned upon her.

36:24 To bring him to America, but she certainly didn't have any thing so there was some kind of a

36:33 Split there and

36:37 Grandpa and I are Papillon. I went to Germany to Berlin.

36:43 And

36:45 When will that was my first trip know my second trip. I went with you first trip. But anyway, when we got to Berlin and we checked into the hotel I said to him I said to look in the phone book and see if there's anybody left and I found my mother's brother. He had divorced his wife and Israel move back to Germany and Mary Wyatt married this German woman in Israel, but they moved to Germany and I found him found his name so high called.

37:20 And the next day I met him for lunch and he said the last time he saw me he powdered my church and then he passed away the year after that.

37:37 Yeah, I was his name.

37:42 I know.

37:44 There are no

37:47 And I'm trying to remember.

37:55 Grandma died, March 13th, and it was in April of that year that your father and I went to Berlin he finally consented to go to Germany. Why as you know, I've gone every year for a number of years and I go to the cemetery to see my father's grave and so on and

38:19 Yeah, he died. And then my friend Peter who lives in Berlin told me I had him check on my uncle and told me that the

38:31 He had passed away and somewhere in the Israel and as many times as I've been there I've never been able to find out but there are a cousin's there that you know, what a couple of children that he and his first wife had.

38:45 You know life is funny. You know, I told you this story that my my father died when I was a year old. He had two brothers and those two brothers went to South America.

39:00 When The War when we went to China but before that so we lost complete contact about these brothers and when grandma lived in Cleveland one of her very good friends went to New York on a trip

39:16 And she's riding in a cab. And in those. I don't know if they still do that. But the cab drivers, you know, they have their name and a picture and long story short. We found out that the driver of that cab was my father's brother. They have come from South America to New York and I contacted them and I went to New York. We kind of lost contact after that and somebody else appeared. There's a paper in New York that came about right after the war to call the elf bow, which in German translation means to rebuild and

39:59 I think it was one Grandma had her. I don't know 50th birthday maybe or something I put an ad in there and and the sole purpose really is that paper was for people all over the world to find family.

40:13 That disappeared during the war and I think that pay and we found people, you know threw that paper. So it's very interesting, you know, so many things that people don't know about it's hard to find people before the internet before the internet. That's very true. And you know, I've been to I've been to genealogy meeting for a genealogist have come in and it's very difficult.

40:46 For Jewish people to do genealogy because everybody was killed.

40:54 Yeah. Okay good.