Michael Grover and Lea Grover

00:01 Hi, my name is Michael Grover. I'm 36 years old. Today's date is Thursday, October 25th, 2018. I'm in Chicago, Illinois at the cultural center. And I am here with my wife Leah.

00:21 I'm Leia Grover. I'm 34 years old. Today is October 25th 2018. Where in the Chicago Cultural Center in Chicago, Illinois, and you are my husband which makes me your wife.

00:46 So

00:49 I wanted to ask you a bunch of really.

00:55 Difficult and complicated questions

00:59 About

01:04 Cancer

01:07 So

01:10 How

01:12 How how long after?

01:18 You got sick. Did you learn you weren't supposed to get better?

01:26 What do you mean by get sick man? I had how long after the initial seizure was it when you found out it was supposed to be terminal.

01:41 To be honest

01:44 Once the initial scan came back

01:49 I was told that there was a mess.

01:53 Amassment a tumor. I assumed that a tumor meant terminal.

02:01 When I heard there was a tumor.

02:04 I was relieved.

02:07 Because tumors usually work pretty quickly.

02:10 And the way things have been going I was terrified that I actually had Lou Gehrig's Disease which I had seen that claimed the life of one of my friends parents at a relatively young age. Not much older than we are now and

02:34 That was kind of terrifying seeing someone go through that.

02:39 So

02:41 It seems a lot easier also because I knew that there was no cure for ALS Lou Gehrig's Disease some when when I heard there was a a brain tumor. I'm like odds are this is

02:59 Going to be a life-or-death situation and we'll just jump into it. You never let me see any part of that you were.

03:14 So

03:16 Focused on the treatment as it was happening and I'm not looking at the prognosis or or the statistics and I know I was pushing you in that direction to and with that sort of decision to avoid.

03:34 To avoid contemplating, you know death by brain cancer a response to my denial or was it something that you were you were going through something I was going through and it wasn't it wasn't the means to avoid contemplation as I contemplated it plenty. It was a means to avoid.

03:56 Seeing it as a certainty cuz once I accepted

04:03 A certainty

04:05 That would be an excuse to to accept that I would be dicks used to say. Oh, why do I care? You know, I should just him move back in with Mom and Dad and the shut-in dying of cancer person. I don't know what I was going to do. I was afraid that if

04:35 I thought that somebody, you know carved in stone and handed me the tablet that said you have 18 months that I would start going. Okay. Alright nice talking to you. I don't need to work anymore. There's no point. What is no point in living on my own anymore, but you weren't living on your own you were living with me, right? So what do you would you have called off the wedding?

05:07 Well you recall that I tried to give you an option to to back out of the relationship. You tried to dump me when you had painted it and I was not having it right.

05:22 It was about four days after your initial brain surgery and you had not been given a prognosis. You've been given a diagnosis. But when the doctor asked if you wanted to know what the prognosis was you said no, and it was it was about four days after that three three or four days and it was the first time I had left the hospital since your surgery since the night of your surgery and I came back and your parents and my parents forced me to lie here. I was not going anywhere, but they insisted that I go take a shower and

06:05 And have a meal that wasn't from the cafeteria or a vending machine and when I came back you had decided to break up with me.

06:17 I had decided it was not fair. I had put a lot of pieces together on my own that.

06:28 Things were not going to be pretty.

06:30 And that there was a very good chance that this was a one-way trip towards finality.

06:38 And

06:40 When

06:43 I made the decision to try and

06:46 Break up with you. That was if I recall correctly, which I probably do not I believe it was the first time we had had time alone.

06:57 Since the surgery

07:01 It was probably the most Lucid time we'd had alone. You've been a whole lot of painkillers and I spend a lot of time managing your guests and who was allowed to come in and talk to you because because I didn't want people crying at you and think that was fair and I thought they were going to sabotage your recovery and your attitude.

07:26 I don't think it was the first time we were alone, but it was the first time we were alone that day my motivation.

07:35 Was very much. I didn't want to ruin your life, which I felt that being the boyfriend who tragically died fiance.

07:45 Being the fiance of less than a week.

07:50 Who tragically died on you?

07:53 Was going to be

07:57 Defining for you and

08:00 Not something I wanted to force you to go through with and you didn't think being dumped by someone who is about to die would be formative either. I didn't feel I was pumping, you know, you were trying to get me to dump you I was trying to very much give you the option. Did you think it would work?

08:24 I didn't know honestly cuz I've heard stories of people who when faced with loved ones.

08:33 Having serious medical conditions just cannot handle it.

08:40 And

08:42 I felt that.

08:45 I owed you the chance.

08:48 2

08:51 You know cut as cleanly as possible if that was what you felt your reaction was going to be.

09:03 Did you think it would work though?

09:05 I don't know what

09:08 Knowing what you know of me and how difficult it was to get me to do anything. You want me just barreling full full steam ahead.

09:22 The only thing I wanted out of it was

09:27 The moral righteousness of knowing that I'd given you that option in which case it did work.

09:35 You

09:37 Called me an idiot you almost hit me.

09:42 I thought you were going to.

09:48 Oh, you didn't really say I'm sorry. You didn't really say anything. You didn't say anything like you can break you see you did say eventually that I could break up with you if I wanted to and it would be you know, we would totally understand. But before you got to that point you were just being a jerk. I think you were just trying to convince me that I didn't want to be in a relationship with you anymore or to make it easier when the blow came like look what a jerk. I am. Now that I have cancer. You really don't want to be in a relationship with me and Enzo first. I was really concerned that you were that your brain was bleeding but was really concerned. There was some sort of surgical complication because your behavior was so fundamentally altered like what who what happened and then and then you say you saw how worried and upset I was and then you change gears and said that I didn't have to stick around and I could leave if I wanted to and I could see.

10:48 All over your face that you were trying to make it easy for me because you didn't actually want to break up with me. You just wanted it to be easier for me to break up with you if I wanted to leave and I thought you were being really Noble and really stupid and stupid and Noble and also stupid.

11:16 So is over call?

11:20 You were trying like I was trying to discuss.

11:25 Kind of aggressively what this would mean for our relationship going forward and the only part of the interaction I remember clearly is you were trying to convince me that nothing had changed and I got angry and I pointed at the giant bandage which was still on my head and said this changed, but I kind of yelled at a little bit.

11:55 Yeah, I think you I think you might have.

11:59 Used a couple f-bombs

12:02 That was okay.

12:04 And then I remember what I told you.

12:08 Was that

12:10 Most people who got your type of brain cancer were old and sick and that you were young and sexy and hot and then you started laughing and then I knew you didn't actually want to break up with me.

12:24 Because I was able to still crack a joke and make you laugh even in the course of your attempted Noble termination of our relationship.

12:35 Which

12:38 But I think very misguided.

12:41 Well, and as I said, I wasn't judging success as actually getting you to break up, you know success was just

12:53 Presenting the option

12:55 Because I wanted to feel like I was the kind of guy who wasn't going to force you.

13:04 He wasn't going to guilt-trip you if you ended up not being able to handle.

13:11 Emotional toll going forward special because a lot of my family is pretty I'm severe emotional eating.

13:19 And we're not giving you the easiest time as I recall. They were great that mean I was I was giving everybody a hard time really I wasn't letting people Express Their Fear or their grief because I was in complete denial. I was in absolute denial that you might die.

13:41 As far as I was concerned you were at that point I had made the decision that you weren't going to die. And so anytime anybody acted in a way that was not in accordance with that out. Come I kicked them out.

13:57 So, I don't know if you'd probably didn't notice cuz you were so thoroughly drugged for those first couple of days, but I would not let particular group of people in at the same time cuz I knew they were feeding off of each other. It's always basically Manning the door like you get your get your act together. Stop crying dry your face going you got 10 minutes if you're going to cry cry on my time. So it was It was kind of kind of offense. I was oblivious of how how rude it was at the time, but I was convinced that if people acted in accordance with my set of beliefs around your lack of a of vulnerability that it would sort of work.

14:40 And some and that was how I maintained.

14:44 And you are right. I did not notice but it was mainly because I wasn't noticing much. I don't believe it was because I had all of the medication. I don't believe I had nearly enough medication know you did not yeah, you did not have enough medication that was awful because after brain surgery, they can't give you painkillers because they have to be able to check your neurological functions and the symptoms of opioids Mystic during a brain surgery. So that sucks.

15:26 But when I think about you and your awareness of the expected outcome, I think of the phone call we had three days before the wedding.

15:36 Do you remember that it was when Ted Kennedy got sick?

15:41 I remember feeling an impact.

15:45 When I discovered

15:48 That Ted Kennedy had

15:52 Been diagnosed with the same tumor I had and

15:59 In reading the news

16:02 I was exposed to

16:05 DM the typical prognosis for it, which is

16:11 Not pretty grim.

16:16 Yeah, I have been 9 months.

16:19 10 months and see July until May what is that? It has been 9 or 10 months and

16:28 You called me. I had just gotten my haircut before the wedding. I was still at the salon and you called to say that Ted. Kennedy had glioblastoma, and you had read everything.

16:41 And I had managed to Shield you from all of that for most of a year. And you said

16:51 You asked me how I could marry you knowing you weren't supposed to be there in another 9 months.

16:58 And I told you again that was old and fat and sick and that you were young and healthy and sexy as hell and that therefore you were not going to die and you did not laugh. You sort of brushed me off that time and I said to you feel halfway.

17:24 And you said no?

17:26 I said that it doesn't matter.

17:29 I think I was reacting to the implication that Ted Kennedy was not sexy.

17:36 I know it's a very controversial opinion.

17:39 So

17:42 We've been talking about this a lot more than I had had died expected what I really want to know. What I really want to know is how different that was

17:53 When you had your second surgery?

17:58 Because when you had that first surgery that was 2007 and you went into it with this attitude of the attitude. You showed to me was that you didn't want to know what the prognosis was. He didn't want to know what the odds were you just wanted to.

18:17 Fighting until the end.

18:20 And then in 2000.

18:23 Was it 15? Yeah, it was 2015.

18:28 When you went in for your second surgery.

18:34 None of that was the same.

18:37 You never tried to break up with me.

18:43 I couldn't undo or or unlearn any of the things I've learned in that time.

18:54 First time very much felt like

18:57 I have my back against the wall.

19:01 And in a way, it was kind of a liberating sensation where there's only one way to move. I'm just forward.

19:12 Coming back

19:15 Overtime I learned you know, my prognosis how age and medical history affected the prognosis going forward. It's still super sexy, by the way.

19:30 I appreciate the input is one to make sure that that's on the record in the Library of Congress forever.

19:42 But I had learned a lot more.

19:46 And and their different options

19:52 And also we had

19:55 Children, I wasn't going to ask you to break our family apart.

20:04 You know when to break up with me.

20:07 Because the cancer had come back.

20:10 I already knew that we

20:15 We're going to do this together.

20:18 That have been established. That was a baseline fact that that make it easier.

20:28 In some ways

20:30 Having the children

20:34 Made me very nervous about

20:38 About the things that could go wrong.

20:41 Because going under for brain surgery is very much a

20:47 Turning point and things can go wrong on on the table. And you know you reached this Apex of you know, it can go drastically one way or the other and I felt

21:04 Well, first of all, I just want to say

21:07 After

21:09 The first round of treatment when it was clear that they weren't able to remove all of the tumor and that I just had some very successful treatments. I had always been resigned.

21:23 To the fact that I would not

21:27 Be able to survive if a significant amount of time without another surgery.

21:35 I'd resigned myself to that. I had understood that was part of what my future was.

21:42 And winter came

21:46 It was something I had prepared myself for mentally.

21:54 So it was a different mindset just a little worried about.

21:59 Bringing more people into it

22:03 Him more responsibilities more

22:10 I was worried about you know.

22:14 You and the children?

22:16 Because I felt much more like

22:19 Like you were dependent on me.

22:22 And therefore it was my responsibility.

22:25 To move forward through it as opposed to round 1 where my choices were.

22:34 Fight or die quietly.

22:46 I am still only had the choice to fight it.

22:50 But it was

22:53 There was much more fear actually the second time.

22:59 A fear of what?

23:01 I stood to leave behind.

23:05 You never really talked to me about that.

23:11 Why not?

23:17 Not entirely certain.

23:20 Part of it is I kind of felt like

23:25 It was my burden.

23:29 And that I didn't need to give it to you.

23:33 Because you were already carrying.

23:36 A lot of the burden

23:40 Arranging things I'm making sure that you know again that my family did not overwhelm everything that was happening and making sure the kids understood what was happening and why?

23:57 And

24:00 I felt like I didn't need to give you that additional weight.

24:08 And it was a choice.

24:11 I could have might have made things easier for me.

24:16 But I think it would have made it much more difficult for you.

24:22 I mean

24:24 There's no no.

24:29 But I have

24:31 Wondered

24:33 Over the last several years.

24:36 How

24:39 How you were carrying that burden?

24:42 Because you're so open with me about.

24:46 Basically everything but sad.

24:53 I felt like it was my head.

24:58 And there were some responsibilities that I chose.

25:04 And

25:08 And it felt more person felt like if if the treatment and surgery hadn't worked the second time.

25:16 I would have felt like it was a personal failure.

25:20 Even though I obviously it wasn't.

25:23 Medicine interacts with tumors in different ways for different people

25:28 Special because the second round tumors weren't actually the same as the first round tumor.

25:39 But that's just how it felt and

25:42 It's something I felt like I couldn't do as motivation in a way.

25:49 Do you still feel like you need to protect me from your fear?

25:57 No.

26:00 I don't have the same fear.

26:03 I am ecstatic to have much more mundane Fierce like blood pressure and no credit card debt compared to

26:16 Him the object Terror.

26:20 That I had going into the operating room knowing that they were going to wake me up halfway through

26:27 I was absolutely terrified.

26:32 And I felt like I could.

26:38 Make it easier by not telling you that.

26:43 Afterwards I told you how bad it was.

26:47 But there was no need to front load.

26:51 That kind of dumped of emotion in my mind.

26:59 So over the last year

27:04 Over the last year there have been some changes medically and personally.

27:13 And one of the things that I've been very aware of is the way you talk to the children about it has changed and I know part of that is that they're older and they're able to understand a lot more nuanced now.

27:33 But

27:36 The

27:38 Facts

27:40 Of your mortality

27:44 Comes up in conversation in a way that I think it's not necessarily typical of families with small children, and I know that you know, there's some of that that has to has to be discussed, but I'm really curious.

28:02 What made you start?

28:05 Sort of volunteering

28:08 These tidbits about

28:13 Death and cancer because

28:21 Children hear about

28:25 About cancer from different sources.

28:28 And too many cancer is still considered a death sentence and not just you know.

28:38 Eventual death sentence but a you know, except set your clock you're going to die soon.

28:47 And I still sensed.

28:51 A fear in them

28:55 But I can't lie to them.

28:59 Except about stupid things, so I had to let them know that.

29:08 What you heard is not wrong cancer is dangerous.

29:14 And

29:16 The fact that I've survived this long is not typical.

29:22 And

29:25 And things could change.

29:28 I want to respect their intelligence in that way, but I also want to reassure them.

29:36 I'm here now.

29:39 And that matters in its own, right?

29:50 What are some of the questions they are they've asked you.

29:54 They ask things like what happens when you die, and why do people die and you know typical kid.

30:07 Existential Universe questions and

30:12 I think you know I'm I don't have it in me to give.

30:17 Nice tidy answers, you know.

30:22 Because those aren't tidy.

30:25 And and I think oversimplifying isn't helpful. And that's that's the the conversation. We were having in particular that sits lodged itself. So thoroughly in my mind is the girls asking.

30:42 Why do people die and then you said, you know, I have I have brain cancer and I know it someday I'm going to die.

30:54 I don't know when but I know.

30:58 And you said it so confidently and without

31:03 Fear or judgment and the kids were able to just remove along with you in that kind of conversation without hanging on to that fact.

31:14 You know, which I think is is kind of a revelation for a lot of kids. I think that the realization that people died is awesome. Awesome divorced from the people, you know, you know, like people died and that's terrifying but that doesn't apply to my parents or my siblings were myself seems to be a sort of

31:40 Progression in when when they relate to death as being something that will affect them personally.

31:47 And I don't know if it's that they didn't.

31:51 Understand that if they didn't connect that you know, like oh, this is a real thing that you were very clear that it was a real thing and

32:00 Yeah, I had a moment where I was still certain Sophie was going to be having nightmares for weeks because she's so is she so sensitive about

32:10 Any kind of change?

32:12 And that's a big one.

32:18 It comes down to

32:20 As I've said, you know my fears going into the second surgery. We're not for myself.

32:28 Except for the process and the actual procedure they were

32:36 For what I would leave behind.

32:39 And

32:41 I came to that realization a lot. I've had time and reason to

32:49 And

32:51 A lot of people take a lot of different angles and the only thing I'm sure of is that after I die this world does not end.

33:01 And the people and things that I know here remain.

33:07 So

33:08 All of my fears have been about

33:13 What happens?

33:17 Shear

33:19 And

33:21 What steps can I take?

33:25 2

33:27 Make it so that my death.

33:33 If it happened a lot sooner than we would like it to would not be.

33:42 A singularly traumatic event in the lives of my children

33:46 There's no way around that right? I mean like well, but I think of that conversation in a little way as

33:58 As saying

34:01 Him using children often think of their parents as superheroes Superman, even though he has died in the comics. You don't he's Invincible him.

34:14 And

34:16 I wanted to make sure that

34:19 On some level. I've made clear that I know I'm not invincible.

34:25 It's interesting because to me it was sort of like the conversation when you tried to get me to break up with you, you know, like like cushioning the blow.

34:37 Very much are some similarities but none of the none of the urgency.

34:46 And I wasn't in a hospital I was

34:50 But it was very much laying out a scenario for them that I'm not sure they contemplated.

34:57 They were there picking me up from the hospital after the second surgery and I don't know what exactly they took from that.

35:08 And I didn't know if they were afraid.

35:11 Of losing me immediately.

35:16 Or if I'd become Again The Immortal daddy savior of the universe.

35:25 I wanted to make clear that not only one ring for two things.

35:34 I'm not invincible.

35:36 I will die someday.

35:38 And also I'm aware of it and it does not scare me.

35:47 Does it

35:50 It is so knowable and unavoidable.

35:55 And I've had so much time.

35:58 To try and wrap my head around and it everyone thinks it's too big of a thing to wrap your head around ever. I have a very large head.

36:10 So the certainty of it

36:13 Has always been you know this kind of a comfort why be scared?

36:21 If it's coming anyway.

36:26 I'm terrified.

36:29 Not so much of me dying, which is much more abstract concept, but I'm terrified of you dying.

36:38 And that's

36:41 That's why I've been living with it for for 11 years, you know and change and

36:50 Denial helps a lot that first decade was all the tile survival instincts. I mean we making jokes to the doctors that they did not appreciate that. We did what we had to do to keep our minds focused.

37:12 And then later we could think about things.

37:17 Then we're at later. This is later and I am I've had so much time to contemplate my own passing that I'm comfortable with it for my own sake.

37:30 The only concerns I have are.

37:34 The things I know and what I know is that when I'm gone.

37:39 You will still be here.

37:41 Children, I'll still be here.

37:44 And

37:46 What will my life have done to you?

38:01 Play my life a lot better.

38:04 I really can't imagine what kind of life I would have had if you hadn't been in it and if you were in it now and if I didn't see you with it in the future.

38:16 When I met you, I didn't feel like I

38:19 Had a life.

38:24 And if you've given me.

38:30 Everything

38:36 Died was

38:38 Aimless and miserable and living in a state of advanced you made me you made me want to be a whole person and you helped me become a healthier person.

38:55 And you

38:58 A life with me where I could see a future and where I wanted to have a future and then you went and got brain cancer like a jerk and every single day of it has been a gift.

39:17 And I wouldn't I wouldn't undo any of them. Even the really really shity ones.

39:23 It was a really really really bad days.

39:28 They're all.

39:30 They don't mean so much to me.

39:33 And I'm so grateful.

39:36 So you keep not dying, please.

39:41 I promise I will never die.

39:50 You're full of shit.

39:55 I love you, too.

39:59 Do you want to talk about?

40:15 I feel like our children have picked out.

40:19 A combination of our best and worst traits and it's kind of distributed them among themselves. Unevenly.

40:35 Which is best fantastic. I'm just constantly amazed. Who do you think is the most like you Sophia?

40:44 Why?

40:47 Because you tell her to stop something and she just doesn't always think she's smarter than you because she is.

40:57 I think Deborah has the most like you.

41:00 She's so responsible.

41:04 She's she's she's my she's my work if I need something done, you know and I tell you to do what you're going to do it and if I need something done and I tell Deborah to do what she's going to do it and if I need something done and I tell myself to do it later. It's not going to get done or Sophie to do it. It's not the biggest.

41:29 Personality flaws my laziness

41:33 So you are not lazy you are so not lazy eye you do you see yourself sucked into things, but you do remember do you remember what you said when I said I want to throw you a graduation party when you got your Master's.

41:48 You said it wasn't a big deal. You said it wasn't a big deal. Yeah, because you thought that you had found it in you thought you would phoned in working sometimes 70 hours a week and going to grad school at night while dealing with brain cancer and having two kids and a pregnant wife like you thought that you could have done better at grad school under those conditions. And therefore you did not deserve recognition at all. And that is the antithesis of lazy.

42:30 Yeah, but that's that's why I I

42:35 Identify with Sophia so much she is so smart.

42:42 That

42:44 When she comes across a problem. She already knows the solution. She doesn't have to work at solving it.

42:51 That was always a problem for me was I in school in high school in the most advanced physics class?

43:01 Teacher would put tomorrow's assignment on the board and then teach, you know the material.

43:11 I wouldn't listen to a word. He said instead I would just open my book and do the assignment during that class because I already knew it sounds like Sophie.

43:25 Is very much like Sophia?

43:33 And then Deborah and Rift. I see much more of your creative Spirit which

43:40 Sure serve me well that was intended to be ironic.

43:45 Don't you think?

43:51 That's why I felt like a combination of the two of us.

43:55 Could be in a

43:57 Perfect.

44:00 I think they are they pretty great.

44:05 They're my favorite kids.

44:08 And they constantly surprise me.

44:10 And I love that.

44:14 I mean, obviously they also constantly get on my nerves in the way that kids do.

44:25 Because I'm lazy no, no.

44:31 Because their kids

44:33 Because they're the kind of kids who have

44:37 You know two dozen Beanie Boos each and their Christmas and birthday wish lists are Beanie Boos, bye-bye.

44:51 Cuz they have such big guy everywhere.

45:10 But I've I'm glad I've gotten to

45:16 See their personalities

45:19 And see the way that their personalities were headed.

45:23 And I love that.

45:26 If you have new growth in your in your brain tumor and you need another surgery.

45:35 Book you talk to me about those fears.

45:42 Because I feel like

45:46 And we're past the crisis point that we were when the second surgery was happening. How is that a crisis point you were in school?

45:58 I graduated in a week before with go was born.

46:03 Finish my last last week before real quick. So maybe my memory has been affected. You haven't convenient built-in excuse there.

46:12 We were about to move.

46:16 Risco is to

46:20 The Twins were

46:25 5

46:27 Yeah, and I hadn't been at the new job for all that long.

46:31 But not if there's new growth.

46:37 Promise I will.

46:40 Not keep those things to myself.