Rachel Parsons and Nick Hnatiw

[00:02] NICK HNATIW: Hi, my name is Nick Hnatiw My age is 38. Today's date is Saturday, February 16, 2019. I am in Chicago, Illinois. And my relationship to Rachel, who you'll meet soon, is my spouse.

[00:20] RACHEL PARSONS: My name is Rachel Parsons. I'm 37. It's Saturday, February 16, 2019. We are in Chicago, and I'm here with my boo and partner in crime, Nick. Okay. So, Nick, talk about the first time we met.

[00:37] NICK HNATIW: We met in 2009 in Brooklyn, New York. And I remember the first time seeing you. It was you were coming out of the. I was in the backyard, and you were coming out of the kitchen door. And I was immediately sort of enthralled with the person that I saw coming out. And I was very interested to start talking to you.

[00:59] RACHEL PARSONS: And where were we?

[01:01] NICK HNATIW: We were in my friend's backyard, I believe. Or was it your friend's backyard?

[01:06] RACHEL PARSONS: It was our friend's backyard.

[01:06] NICK HNATIW: Our friend's backyard.

[01:11] RACHEL PARSONS: Then what happened?

[01:13] NICK HNATIW: You sauntered down the stairs into this patio backyard, and in your Michael Jackson T shirt. Which we're very proud of.

[01:23] RACHEL PARSONS: That's right.

[01:24] NICK HNATIW: And we just started chatting. Yeah.

[01:27] RACHEL PARSONS: Yeah. I'm pretty sure it was the same year that Michael Jackson had died, so I think I was wearing that T shirt a lot that summer.

[01:34] NICK HNATIW: Yes, yes. I believe it was just a few months after it.

[01:37] RACHEL PARSONS: Yeah, I hope that's right. But I think it was 2009. Yeah, I remember. I remember meeting you.

[01:44] NICK HNATIW: I hope so.

[01:46] RACHEL PARSONS: I remember you talking to me. I was on my way to the Brooklyn Museum to what I hoped was a date, much to my chagrin, with a woman I'd been interested in for a really long time. And so I was, like, super excited. And so I saw you, who was this very sweet, attractive, kind of geeky guy in the backyard. And I was, like, you know, chatting, but I was, like, ready to move on to the next thing. I was, like, so ready to go meet this woman. And so. Yeah. But then I think it was, like a week or so later, our mutual friend where we had met told me that you were asking about me. And so I identify as a queer woman, but I mostly partner with women. And so I was sort of, like, curious about you, but sort of, like, not taking it, like, super seriously. But I was like, okay, well, he seemed really nice. Sure. And the date I went on turned out not to be a date. So I was pretty sad about that. And I was like, well, okay, I could go on a date with this person instead.

[02:56] NICK HNATIW: I remember immediately after you had left, I had went to Our mutual friend. And who is that? And she laughed and she was like, I knew you were going to ask me. So I guess she knew from early on as well that we were sort of destined to be together.

[03:12] RACHEL PARSONS: Oh, yeah. What did she say to you after you asked who I was? What did she. What information did she give you about me?

[03:20] NICK HNATIW: That you were. You identified queer and that you had dated primarily women. Occasionally you would see a man, but that was like, that was it. So that was really the. The main information that I got from her.

[03:35] RACHEL PARSONS: Okay.

[03:35] NICK HNATIW: Yeah.

[03:35] RACHEL PARSONS: So were you surprised then when I was like, sure, we could hang out?

[03:39] NICK HNATIW: I would say that I was. I was hopeful that it would be that, but I wasn't. I was glad that it happened. I don't know if I was exactly surprised, but yeah, I was excited.

[03:48] RACHEL PARSONS: Okay. And so that summer, we went on one date.

[03:52] NICK HNATIW: We did.

[03:53] RACHEL PARSONS: And I had a nice time.

[03:54] NICK HNATIW: Yeah, me too.

[03:56] RACHEL PARSONS: And what did you think after that date? Like, what was your. What was your experience of that date and what were you thinking about that?

[04:02] NICK HNATIW: Well, even though my ego was sort of destroyed. Not destroyed, but beat up a little bit from losing the whiskey drinking competition that we had started earlier. Hands down. No, it was pretty bad.

[04:19] RACHEL PARSONS: Which I believe impressed your father. Later, when I finally met your dad.

[04:23] NICK HNATIW: Yes, yes. He was very impressed with you.

[04:25] RACHEL PARSONS: He tried to offer me a fruity drink when I asked for whiskey. He sort of laughed. And then I said, ask your son about the whiskey drinking competition that I beat him in and then I was in. So that was pretty easy.

[04:34] NICK HNATIW: Yeah. It's not too hard to get to become friends with him. Yeah.

[04:40] RACHEL PARSONS: But that was years later.

[04:41] NICK HNATIW: That was years later.

[04:42] RACHEL PARSONS: So we went on a date. And so we, I told. I was sort of like, you're nice, goodbye. It was nice to go on a date with you, but I, you know, I wasn't open to dating a man at the time. Not even a little bit more than once or twice.

[05:02] NICK HNATIW: Yeah.

[05:04] RACHEL PARSONS: Yeah. So that was like our first time together.

[05:09] NICK HNATIW: Yeah.

[05:10] RACHEL PARSONS: And then talk about the next time we saw each other and how long it was and things like that.

[05:16] NICK HNATIW: So there was actually a very large gap in between that time and the next time. I believe it was three years.

[05:22] RACHEL PARSONS: That sounds right.

[05:24] NICK HNATIW: And that was when you came down to Baltimore, where I was living at the time, and you were in town for work.

[05:33] RACHEL PARSONS: Yeah, it was a math teacher conference.

[05:34] NICK HNATIW: Yes, yes.

[05:35] RACHEL PARSONS: It was really rad.

[05:39] NICK HNATIW: And I was excited because we were going to go get dinner. And that was actually the time that I knew that I was pretty much in Love with you at that point, and I knew that I wanted to be with you.

[05:53] RACHEL PARSONS: How did you know?

[05:55] NICK HNATIW: It was sort of a specific moment. I don't know if anything particular happened, but it was just us walking down the street arm in arm, and going to the restaurant, which I can't remember the name of right now, but I remember where it is.

[06:11] RACHEL PARSONS: Where was it?

[06:14] NICK HNATIW: Oh, man, I can't think of the street now. Now that I said that, I want to say St. Paul street in Baltimore.

[06:21] RACHEL PARSONS: What neighborhood?

[06:22] NICK HNATIW: In Washington Square, I believe.

[06:27] RACHEL PARSONS: Okay. Is that a thing?

[06:29] NICK HNATIW: I think so.

[06:29] RACHEL PARSONS: I thought it was, like, Washington Hill.

[06:33] NICK HNATIW: Well, now I don't know.

[06:34] RACHEL PARSONS: Okay. Anyway, whatever. It was very hip. It was a very hip place.

[06:38] NICK HNATIW: It was a very hip place.

[06:39] RACHEL PARSONS: I remember thinking, like, he's trying to impress me. This is very hip.

[06:41] NICK HNATIW: I wasn't trying to impress you. I was trying to find a good.

[06:43] RACHEL PARSONS: Restaurant, and I had nothing to do with it. So we were just walking arm in arm, and you decided you were in love.

[06:53] NICK HNATIW: I mean, our conversations up to that point and everything. Like, you. You were certainly the person, sort of that I was looking for in a partner. Yeah.

[07:06] RACHEL PARSONS: And so what kind of qualities were you looking for in a person that you felt like I brought with me?

[07:11] NICK HNATIW: Intelligence. You were a math teacher, so you got props for math. Props. They're a good conversationalist. You were compassionate and caring of others. Just sort of all the good qualities that you look for in a person, you had them all.

[07:28] RACHEL PARSONS: Mm. And so, considering after our first date, I was like, thanks, but no thanks. What made you open to going on another date with me?

[07:36] NICK HNATIW: There was just something in me that was just like, I understand that you liking women is a thing. Right. And that's.

[07:46] RACHEL PARSONS: It is a thing.

[07:47] NICK HNATIW: And I was not a woman, so I understood that that made things difficult, but there was just some connection that I felt that seemed to sort of supersede that. I guess.

[08:02] RACHEL PARSONS: So then I guess I'm curious to ask you, like, how did you relate to my queerness then? Was it kind of what you just described?

[08:07] NICK HNATIW: You were like, yeah, yeah. So it was. It was, I mean, obvious and apparent, and I respected it. But at the same time, like, this feeling that I had was just so strong.

[08:20] RACHEL PARSONS: Was it confusing that I'm like, I'm queer, but I'll go on a date with you? Did that make sense to you?

[08:25] NICK HNATIW: Yeah, that part was sort of fine. It was when you would refuse a date with me when I got confused.

[08:34] RACHEL PARSONS: Yeah. Well, you know, I think we've talked about this before, but the Usually the only time I would date a man is once I was heartbroken over a woman. So I would. You know, I was a serial monogamist, I guess I have been from a young age. And I always seem to. You always seem to come into my orbit right in the middle of a heartbreak or like, in some way that, like, what I wanted was something uncomplicated but, like, sweet. Like, I always thought you were really sweet and interesting and smart and, like, I enjoyed spending time with you. But I think for me, it felt safe because I was like, well, I'll never be emotionally attached to this person. It's a guy. And, like, with my sexuality, like, I'm attracted to both men and women, but, you know, it's like, mostly women. But, yeah, there was something about you that I just felt kind of safe in some ways. Like, not in, like a. Not in, like, a vanilla, mundane way, but, like, you just seemed really kind.

[09:35] NICK HNATIW: Yeah.

[09:36] RACHEL PARSONS: And so. And, you know, you were like, you were excited to hang out, and, you know, that feels good. So. Yeah. But that was sort of this. Not even, like, the role you played in my life for a long time. But that's always when you would come around, like, that's. I just happened to be going to your city for work at this moment, and the first time, you know, that was just kind of when you would appear. So for a while, you were almost like this, like, magical fairy. Like, are you sad? Hi. And I was like, oh, great. Wonderful.

[10:12] NICK HNATIW: That's actually how I identify.

[10:14] RACHEL PARSONS: Fairy. A magical fairy.

[10:15] NICK HNATIW: Magical fairy that comes at the darkest moments of people's lives.

[10:22] RACHEL PARSONS: So, yeah. So that's kind of how I related to us for a long time. And then I remember after that date in Baltimore, you were like. You, like, got serious about it. You're like, we should date. Like, date. Like, I want to be with you.

[10:36] NICK HNATIW: Yeah. No, I felt it. Strong.

[10:37] RACHEL PARSONS: Yeah.

[10:38] NICK HNATIW: I was in it. Right.

[10:40] RACHEL PARSONS: What did I do?

[10:42] NICK HNATIW: You would not consider it even after I said that. I think you should consider it.

[10:52] RACHEL PARSONS: I'm curious if you thought I was cold or mean. How did that land on you?

[10:57] NICK HNATIW: I was more. You were certainly a matter of fact, but I was just more, again, like I said, confused at sort of the denial of what seemed to me to be so obvious a connection between us. So I don't know if I was just sort of deluding myself or if it was there and you were sort of not wanting it.

[11:19] RACHEL PARSONS: That's interesting.

[11:20] NICK HNATIW: Yeah.

[11:22] RACHEL PARSONS: I think about that in the context of me as a person and just in the context of Being with women, I feel like, you know, sort of go into the roots of why, but, like, women are, in my experience, are generally more open more quickly. And so I feel like relationships I've had with women, it, like, usually happens pretty fast, and the connection is pretty strong from the get. And, like, that's just kind of part of it, even if it's not like, this huge love affair. And so I wonder if that's a difference between our experience. Like, for me, it's like, yeah, I have a connection to this person. Great. You know what I mean?

[11:51] NICK HNATIW: I see.

[11:52] RACHEL PARSONS: Does that make sense?

[11:52] NICK HNATIW: Yeah. Yeah. It was something that you were, like, used to.

[11:54] RACHEL PARSONS: Yeah, absolutely.

[11:55] NICK HNATIW: Yeah. Or it's something that I certainly was not used to. I mean, you know, you'd have those connections with people, but.

[11:59] RACHEL PARSONS: Yeah, but they would not.

[12:00] NICK HNATIW: Certainly not be, like, the standard way you would interact.

[12:03] RACHEL PARSONS: I mean, like, the joke about the lesbian who, like, moves in three days after is like. It's like, you know, there's some ground there. There's some reality there.

[12:10] NICK HNATIW: It's a joke. A joke based on some truth.

[12:12] RACHEL PARSONS: It's like an exaggerated, but, like, not always. So that's interesting. I never thought of it that way. That, like, that we both. I definitely did feel the connection, but to me, it wasn't anything that was sort of, like, largely unique in that way. And I think I was just closed. I mean, I just. That just. It wasn't even in my paradigm.

[12:29] NICK HNATIW: Right.

[12:29] RACHEL PARSONS: Like, that I would even be with you in that way.

[12:31] NICK HNATIW: Yeah.

[12:31] RACHEL PARSONS: Like an emotionally invested way. So it just. I was just like, well, sorry, bro. But I did. I did want you to. I didn't want to be. I didn't want to be unkind to you. So I really always tried to be really upfront.

[12:46] NICK HNATIW: Yeah.

[12:47] RACHEL PARSONS: About. Like, this is casual for me, and, like, I'm happy to hang out with you, but, like.

[12:50] NICK HNATIW: Right.

[12:51] RACHEL PARSONS: This is not anything more than us hanging out. And I feel like I really tried to do that.

[12:55] NICK HNATIW: Yeah. Oh, you did.

[13:00] RACHEL PARSONS: Yeah. And then after that, I mean, I don't remember what year that was. That was a few years after we usually met somewhere like 2012 or 2013 or something like that.

[13:08] NICK HNATIW: That was somewhere there. Yeah.

[13:10] RACHEL PARSONS: And then I got engaged. I started dating the woman I was engaged to. I think pretty soon after that, maybe a year, it was pretty close. I feel like that her and I started dating and then became engaged, and we were together for, like, three years, I think, and that. And I was very happy. But then we had this sort of out of the blue, what felt to me is out of a blue, like, jolted ending. And that sort of brings back to where we connected again, which fit into the pattern of like, oh, my heart is broken, I'm sad.

[13:54] NICK HNATIW: Exactly.

[13:55] RACHEL PARSONS: Here's Nick, the magical fairy man. She's back again. But, yeah, so we were going to our mutual friend's wedding. The same.

[14:03] NICK HNATIW: The same friend, let's call her.

[14:04] RACHEL PARSONS: So Christina was our friend and we met her. That's where we met in 2009 in her backyard in Brooklyn. And then in 2015, so six years later, she was getting married to your friend.

[14:19] NICK HNATIW: My friend.

[14:19] RACHEL PARSONS: Right. And we were both invited to the wedding. And I originally, my. My broken off engagement was very fresh, like, like weeks fresh. And it was. I was still very sad and, like, was clear and sure about it, but was feeling not great for, I guess, I hope would be obvious reasons. And so my original plan was she was going to be my date to the wedding. We were just going to sort of, you know, we still got along. It just wasn't going to. We weren't going to end up together. And so I was just like, okay, well, we'll just go. And I still had my engagement ring on, and I was just going to kind of just get through that weekend. You know, weddings like a pretty emotionally charged place as it is. And so I just kind of wanted to get through that weekend and then would sort of figure it out from there. But her and I got into a huge fight the night before, and I was like, I'm not coming. I'm not bringing you with me. And I took off my ring and my friend and I got in a car and drove to Boston from Brooklyn for this wedding. So I know you were going to be there. You knew I was going to be there?

[15:28] NICK HNATIW: Yes.

[15:29] RACHEL PARSONS: What was your thoughts or what were you like, really? What were you thinking about that?

[15:32] NICK HNATIW: Well, I was just excited to see you.

[15:35] RACHEL PARSONS: Really?

[15:35] NICK HNATIW: Oh, I. I don't think that I knew at that point. Yes. I did not know at that point that your engagement was broken off.

[15:42] RACHEL PARSONS: Okay. Because. Yeah, because you had reached out before and I had told you were coming to New York once and you're like, oh, you want to hang? I was like. And my fiance was like, we're not doing that. So. Okay, so you knew that I was engaged.

[15:52] NICK HNATIW: Yeah.

[15:53] RACHEL PARSONS: But you didn't know that.

[15:54] NICK HNATIW: I didn't know that it had ended. And so I was just excited to hang out with you again and just see you in a platonic way. Right. So, yeah. So from that perspective, I don't think that There was sort of any sort of apprehension or any expectation of anything happening. Just sort of like, oh, I'm going to see this person who. We always have fun, you know, whenever. Sort of we do kind of pass each other's lives whenever they cross.

[16:21] RACHEL PARSONS: But that's interesting because we'd always gone out. It's not like we ever hung out, like, as buds. Like, we were always on dates.

[16:27] NICK HNATIW: Sure. I mean, I guess I don't think of that as so different, I guess.

[16:31] RACHEL PARSONS: Interesting. Say more.

[16:33] NICK HNATIW: I mean, when I'm hanging out with somebody, whether it be on a, you know, quote unquote date or whether it just be sort of platonic, those engagements are the same to me, I guess, in some. In a lot of ways. In the way that, I mean, certainly, like, there's different goals. I guess I was gonna say to.

[16:50] RACHEL PARSONS: Your sleep with all your friends. Good for you. Not one to judge.

[16:56] NICK HNATIW: There's certainly different goals, but the way that I interact with them, I'm just trying to be a genuine person, I guess, just have fun with whatever I'm doing. So whether that's being on a date with someone who I'm courting or just being friendly with somebody.

[17:14] RACHEL PARSONS: I am still curious, though, because our history up to that point was we go on dates, you'd want more and I would say no. And so, like, rejection every time.

[17:25] NICK HNATIW: Sure.

[17:26] RACHEL PARSONS: And I mean, in some way, right?

[17:28] NICK HNATIW: Yeah.

[17:28] RACHEL PARSONS: When it came down to moving anything past casual dates, it was. It was a rejection. But yet you were still just, like, excited. I'm like, that wouldn't not be me. So I'm just like. I wouldn't be, like. I would be like, oh, there's that person who keeps turning me down.

[17:43] NICK HNATIW: Like, I mean, again, it just comes down to that connection that I had with you. I won't say we had at that moment because apparently I was the only one that had it.

[17:53] RACHEL PARSONS: No, that's not true. It just meant different things.

[17:56] NICK HNATIW: No, of course, of course. And so through that connection, it almost didn't matter to me whether it would materialize into a romantic relationship or. Or just a friendship of some kind, so. Because up until that point, unlike you and your serial monogamy, I was fairly confident that I would just be happy and single up to that point, because I really had no expectation of getting married. And so that transition for me was fine. Like, it wasn't a big deal.

[18:41] RACHEL PARSONS: What transition?

[18:42] NICK HNATIW: The of trying to date you to just being your friend.

[18:47] RACHEL PARSONS: Gotcha. Yeah, gotcha. So, right. So you never really wanted to get married.

[18:52] NICK HNATIW: Right.

[18:52] RACHEL PARSONS: So talk More about that?

[18:56] NICK HNATIW: Yeah, I mean, it was really like, came down to this. Always sounds kind of weird when you say it out loud, but I just sort of like enjoyed myself a lot. Like, I like doing things that are singular. I didn't like to have to sort of, I don't want to say ask permission, but, you know, just be able to sort of have the freedoms of being single. And in order for someone to sort of convince me of not being single any longer, it would have to be a pretty special person. So it wasn't. It was just never sort of something that I needed to do for myself. I was always very content, you know, on sort of on my own. And so, yeah, I was never looking to get married, I guess.

[19:47] RACHEL PARSONS: Okay, that was not me. Marriage wasn't a goal for me either. But primary long term partnership was. Right? It's like, I feel like one thing that I love about being queer is the way that relationships can be what they are. They don't have to fit into whatever societal expectations that hetero people make, like marriage, kid, whatever. So like, whatever, here we are, married with a child. But that was never my goal either. But I did want to have a primary partner and to be with them for a long time. One, that's just sort of my way. But two, I just think it's like a sort of, I don't know, spiritual exercise. Like a way to grow as a human being to like really commit to being with somebody. And for me, it didn't have to be just one person, but like, I mean, I would want that one person. And like, I'd had different relationships where it's like sometimes we could see other people and still be together. But like, I would have that person and we'd be accountable to each other and we would sort of create a life together that we, that we were proud of. So that was always part of my goal in life. Not goal in life, but that's. I pictured that for myself. I wanted that, sure. But marriage was not it. And up until my fiance, kids wasn't either. But she really wanted kids. And so I was like, all right, that seems fine. I could do kids. Kids are cool. I was a high school teacher for a long time, as you know, so I love teenagers. But babies were still. And still, I mean, we have a baby, but they're so mysterious to me. I'm just like, talk, do something like rebel, have some angst. Like, I got that. You know, babies are confusing. So anyway, okay, so we're at the wedding.

[21:26] NICK HNATIW: We're at the wedding. Yes.

[21:27] RACHEL PARSONS: I was nervous to see you.

[21:29] NICK HNATIW: You were?

[21:29] RACHEL PARSONS: Because I was just in such a bad place. I mean, I was ending an engagement to somebody I was deeply in love with, and it was, like, still very jarring that it had ended, and I just didn't have any emotional energy left. And so I was worried. I was like, oh, God. Like, what's it gonna be like?

[21:46] NICK HNATIW: Yeah, I could see the anxiety when.

[21:49] RACHEL PARSONS: We saw each other.

[21:49] NICK HNATIW: When we saw each other.

[21:50] RACHEL PARSONS: Yeah. So we saw each other. That. The night before the wedding, there was, like, a small party in Christina's room. And I was. I remember telling my friend Marilyn before I went downstairs, I was like, oh, my God. I'm like, I just don't know what to do if I see him. So if I need rescuing, like, just come. She's like, it's cool. I got you. But I didn't need rescuing. I just. I just didn't have any space for any drama. So I was worried there'd be drama, and I had too much drama, and I didn't need any more of it. And I was just worried that there'd be some sort of emotional labor that had to be done to share space with you. And I wasn't looking forward to that. But that's not what it was. You were very, very sweet and calm and just friendly, and that was nice. It was like a. It was nice to be able to relax into that.

[22:35] NICK HNATIW: Yeah.

[22:38] RACHEL PARSONS: Yeah. So that was sort of our coming together. And then the next day was the wedding.

[22:41] NICK HNATIW: Yes.

[22:42] RACHEL PARSONS: So let's talk about that.

[22:44] NICK HNATIW: So I stood up in the wedding. So through most of the ceremony, I was occupied. But then we were seated very close to each other during the dinner, and I would catch you sneaking glances at me.

[23:00] RACHEL PARSONS: Or maybe I was sneaking glasses.

[23:02] NICK HNATIW: You were catching me sneaking glances at you. I don't know which. But glances were being snuck regardless. And I remember because I was chatting with my. One of my good friends at the table that I was sitting at, and then you just, like, sort of popped up and walked over to me and asked me to dance.

[23:23] RACHEL PARSONS: Ah, that sounds like something I would do.

[23:24] NICK HNATIW: Yeah, that is actually something you did do.

[23:28] RACHEL PARSONS: I don't remember that, but I believe you.

[23:30] NICK HNATIW: So naturally, I said yes, because even though I don't like dancing. Yeah, you hate dancing.

[23:35] RACHEL PARSONS: But you dance with me all night.

[23:36] NICK HNATIW: I liked the person who was asking, so I went and danced away.

[23:41] RACHEL PARSONS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was interesting because, like, when I saw you that night before, I was like, okay. That was like, fine. But then at the wedding, I don't Know, it was just nice. And I. But I was very conscious of the fact that I had just. I was. I was in a vulnerable time, as usual, when I saw you. But I was also, like, I didn't want to, like, use that as some weird escape or something, if that makes sense. Like, I was feeling pretty badly, and I didn't want to be like, oh, let me just go sleep with this guy.

[24:09] NICK HNATIW: I see.

[24:10] RACHEL PARSONS: To feel okay or to hide from the things. And so I was being really careful. I was like, okay, well, I'm allowed to talk to him, and that's it. Okay, well, I'm allowed to dance with him, but that's it. And I just, like, kept changing the boundary. And I remember we were talking, and I think I brought it up because I didn't have my ring on. And I think we were. It was pretty soon later into the night, and I was like, I don't know if you noticed that I don't have my engagement ring on. And you're like, oh, really?

[24:37] NICK HNATIW: I did not.

[24:37] RACHEL PARSONS: Okay. Yeah. You don't seem like the type that would look for ring. That's not really a thing. And so I told you that I had broken off my engagement, and then things just sort of opened up from there.

[24:49] NICK HNATIW: What do you think sort of convinced you or encouraged you to continue sort of down that path? You said, like, as that night progressed, you kept sort of changing the boundary. What was sort of the impetus behind that?

[25:06] RACHEL PARSONS: I mean, it felt nice to be with you. Like, we were having fun, we were laughing. It was like the first time in a long time that I felt, like, light and just kind of, like, things felt kind of easy. I don't know. I mean, obviously we were attracted to each other.

[25:20] NICK HNATIW: Yeah.

[25:22] RACHEL PARSONS: So. Yeah. And you were just really sweet, like, the whole time. Like, no pressure, like, just really. We just had a good time. And then I think you kissed me.

[25:33] NICK HNATIW: I did.

[25:34] RACHEL PARSONS: Okay.

[25:34] NICK HNATIW: Yeah. I mean, you know, you kissed me back. It wasn't making sound a little awkward there.

[25:39] RACHEL PARSONS: Right.

[25:39] NICK HNATIW: But yes, yes, I was. I leaned in, as they say.

[25:44] RACHEL PARSONS: Well, so it just shifted the dynamic between us for the rest of the evening, obviously. And, you know. Well, like, when the night was ending and we obviously became wedding dates, I remember you said to me, you know, we don't have to be involved physically in any way. We don't have to date. But I really think you're great, and I don't want you to disappear from my life again. And it was, like, so genuine. Like, I really believed you in this way. That kind of like, opened up. Let me open up to you in a way I hadn't before. My defenses came down and I was like, this is like a good person. This is a good human being. And. And I need that in my life right now. You know, I needed a friend. I needed whatever that looked like.

[26:37] NICK HNATIW: Yeah.

[26:39] RACHEL PARSONS: So. Yeah. And then fast forward, I guess I was in Brooklyn, you were in Baltimore.

[26:48] NICK HNATIW: Yeah.

[26:48] RACHEL PARSONS: You would come visit. First it was for a night every other, like, once a month, and then it was like two nights, and then it was like every weekend, and then it was like four nights.

[26:59] NICK HNATIW: Yeah. And so, I mean, after. I don't know, it was.

[27:04] RACHEL PARSONS: So we started dating in, like, May.

[27:06] NICK HNATIW: Of 2015, and I decided that it's silly to continue this commute and that I should just move to Brooklyn.

[27:15] RACHEL PARSONS: Yeah.

[27:16] NICK HNATIW: And that happened in December, I think. November.

[27:17] RACHEL PARSONS: December it did. And I told you you couldn't move in with me, right? It's like, yeah, you can come to Brooklyn, but, like, you need to get your own apartment.

[27:24] NICK HNATIW: And I thought it was presumptuous of you to think that I was going to move in with you.

[27:31] RACHEL PARSONS: Did you really think that?

[27:32] NICK HNATIW: No, I don't. No. I mean, it was completely normal. I didn't want to just jump into the same apartment with you. We knew each other, but we didn't know each other that well.

[27:43] RACHEL PARSONS: We had already said I love you.

[27:45] NICK HNATIW: You know, as you said, lesbians throw around the emotions fairly quickly.

[27:50] RACHEL PARSONS: Whatever you do. You're ridiculous. You're like, it doesn't matter two months in a day. And you're like, so I think I'm gonna move to New York. And I was like, really? Why? And you're like, to be with you. I was like, okay, no pretense there. No, like, oh, for work.

[28:04] NICK HNATIW: You're like, that would have been silly.

[28:07] RACHEL PARSONS: So I just want to point out that you have some queer tendencies in there too, mister.

[28:12] NICK HNATIW: That's why I thought it was funny, because I was the first one to say I love you. Well, I guess we said I love you at the same time, but I definitely felt it and wanted to say no.

[28:19] RACHEL PARSONS: I said, I think I love you. And before I could finish saying, I think I love you, like, I love. But that was, like, such an interesting time for me because I, like, didn't want that.

[28:30] NICK HNATIW: Right?

[28:31] RACHEL PARSONS: I didn't want that. I loved being queer. I loved being with women. I loved the culture. I loved everything about it. I mean, it was like. And I remember, like, I would. We were falling in love, and it was, like, obvious, because even when you weren't there, we'd talk on the phone for, like, two hours every night. And, like, I was a school teacher at the time, so that's a significant investment, like, for anybody, but, like, legit for me. I was a. Like, I should be lesson planning. And I remember, like, talking to all my friends about it, and all of them were, like, super supportive. And I was looking kind of for a way out, I think. Like, I just, like. I was like, this is not what I want in my life. I do not want a man. I don't. And so I would, like, go out with, like, my gayest friends, like, the most, like, separatist, militant lesbians. And I'd be like. And I'd be like, I'm following up with this guy. And I was waiting to be like, no, you will leave the sisterhood. And, like, give me, like, the. You know, just really convince me about, like, what a bad choice that was. But all of them, every single one, every single person, which is, like, great. But they were like, love is love. Isn't that what it's all about? I was like, oh, I guess. But it was actually really hard for me. Like, it's, like, funny, but it's also, like, not funny.

[29:44] NICK HNATIW: Right.

[29:44] RACHEL PARSONS: Like, it was. And I. You know, we've been together, what, three and a half years now. We've been married for two of those years. We had a baby eight months ago.

[29:54] NICK HNATIW: Yeah.

[29:54] RACHEL PARSONS: Like, we're in it.

[29:55] NICK HNATIW: Yeah. It's a commitment now.

[29:59] RACHEL PARSONS: But I still struggle with it sometimes, which I know that, you know, just, like, missing. Missing parts of my identity and missing parts of that culture that now feels, I guess, off limits. Not off limits, but just different.

[30:15] NICK HNATIW: Yeah. Can you talk more about sort of that balance and how you sort of relate to it?

[30:22] RACHEL PARSONS: Yeah. I still don't know. I think in New York, it was easier because I had a huge queer community there. Like, almost all my friends. I'd say, like, 80% of my friends were queer in some way, women or men. And here, you know, we came here when I was, what, four months pregnant? I think. Whatever. I was pregnant. It was a cold Chicago teams at play. This freaking weather. And I just, you know. And then I had the baby and. And then I had a birth injury for months. I could barely walk for months. So I was. I guess when we moved here, I was like, okay. I had a few acquaintances from college that were here, which was nice, but, like, I don't. I don't have. One of them is queer, and the other three are like, love the Queers, but aren't, you know. And so, yeah, so I think in New York I could still be in queer spaces a lot easier. Like, I felt seen, I felt like people knew me as that, if that makes sense. Whereas here I'm still sort of getting settled in. I was talking to a friend last night on the phone. I haven't been to a gay bar since we got here. And that's where I would go, you know what I mean? That's where we go chill. And I miss it. I miss the drag queens, I miss the strippers. I miss just the community and the ridiculousness and just my people. And it's hard for me because we share so much, but that's something about my life that I can bring you into, but I can never really share with you.

[32:02] NICK HNATIW: Yeah.

[32:03] RACHEL PARSONS: If that makes sense. So, yeah, I don't know. I think it'll be a lifelong process for me to figure that out. But I would. I want to. I want to figure it out because I don't want anything about us to be. To feel sad to me, if that makes sense.

[32:19] NICK HNATIW: Yeah.

[32:20] RACHEL PARSONS: How do you relate to my queerness at this point?

[32:23] NICK HNATIW: Um, yeah, I mean, it's really sort of, I guess, like it's not. And maybe this is just part of sort of being a CIS man's privilege.

[32:37] RACHEL PARSONS: It's.

[32:37] NICK HNATIW: It's just not something that I have to sort of engage with, I guess. And I don't mean that in like, I'm ignoring it kind of way, but like, I just sort of accept the fact that like we love each other and you can still be. Identify as queer. Like, so it's, you know, if, which. Which would never happen if we were to separate, like, you would go back to, you know, dating women. And that's like, fine with me. But I know, like, I guess it's like sort of for me that the perspective is. It's like again, goes back to sort of our connection. And that's what I sort of sit on. So it's like you could like men or women, that's fine. But our love is sort of, again, like, sort of supersedes that. It's like on top of that.

[33:29] RACHEL PARSONS: That makes sense. I'm trying to like, figure out where to go from there. Cause I feel like there's just. I hear that, but I guess part of that feels like I want to challenge that more. Like I want it to be something you engage with. I want that to be a part of me that is present for you, not just for me. And I don't know Yeah, I don't know.

[34:03] NICK HNATIW: I guess it's certainly something that. It's not like something that I'm ignoring. That's not the case. It is something that I understand and want to help you sort of engage with more, I guess. I mean, not that I want you to see other people, obviously, but, like, you know, I want you to feel part of the community that you feel like you belong to. And so, like, making sure that we find that in the places that we live, it's, like, important to me as well. So, like, from that perspective, like, I'm not ignoring it, but, I mean, I guess, like, I would liken it to, you know, dating somebody else who had different preferences. Right. To me, those. It would be the same thing. Right. Whether it was a man who liked women and that's. I was dating that man. Like, it wouldn't bother me that that man liked women because we were sort of dating. You know what I mean? Sure. Or if it was a woman and she liked men. Again, it's. I don't look at it any differently from the perspective of, you know, you liking women or you identifying queer.

[35:14] RACHEL PARSONS: Okay, we only have a few minutes, so I have a couple other questions I want to talk about. Sure. How does your family. So when I. When I told my family I'm curious about our families. Right. So when I told my family I was dating you, they were just like. It felt like I was coming out all over again. They were so confused. My mother was so just like, what? Like, I was talking to my brother, my youngest brother. I was like, oh, yeah. Blah, blah, blah. He's like. Because he knew that I had broken up with Sin. And he was like, so, are you seeing somebody? I'm like, I actually am seeing someone new. And I was like, oh. He's like, what's her name? And I was like, oh, their name is Nick. And he's like, Nicole. I was like, nicholas? And he's like, what? I was like, it's a guy. And he was like, oh, my God. And my mother said the same thing to me once. She sort of. When I came out to my mom, and that's, like, a whole nother story. But what she said to me when she sort of was able to, like, figure it out, like, and, like, take it in, was the same thing. She said the same thing to me when I told her about you that she did. When I told her about Janelle, my first girlfriend, which was like, oh, my God. Whatever makes you happy. I don't. I just don't understand. So I feel like she had done all this work to, like, accept her gay daughter and then whatever. But I'm curious, like, how your family relates to my queerness. Like, I don't know who actually knows. I know your mother does and your brother. But, like, how does that show up in your family? Because I'm not, like, quiet about it.

[36:35] NICK HNATIW: Right.

[36:35] RACHEL PARSONS: But I'm also not, like, hi, I'm Nick's partner. I'm queer.

[36:38] NICK HNATIW: Yeah. No, it's certainly not overt. And it's certainly not, like, sort of shut away. Right. But honestly, like, I. So my brother is fine. Like, he's. It's whatever to him.

[36:52] RACHEL PARSONS: But he had a reaction when I first. When we first started dating.

[36:55] NICK HNATIW: Oh. So, yes. Yes. When we first started dating, he told me to be careful because. And basically, like, don't get emotionally invested, because if she's lesbian, she's probably gonna break up with you and go start dating women again. And so with that, it was. So that was sort of his reaction initially. But I think when he saw us sort of together and he met you a few times, I think he then understood sort of what. That. What it really meant because he never, ever said anything again about it. I don't really. My parents aren't one to sort of, like, really experiment with their emotions and share. And share. Yeah, yeah.

[37:46] RACHEL PARSONS: Cause at our wedding, like, my dear friend who gave the toast was like, queer, queer. Rachel's queer.

[37:52] NICK HNATIW: Queer.

[37:52] RACHEL PARSONS: Queer.

[37:52] NICK HNATIW: And I was like, that's gross.

[37:54] RACHEL PARSONS: I'm in my dress with my husband. But I don't know. I don't know how that landed on anybody or.

[38:01] NICK HNATIW: Yeah. I mean, honestly, nobody had. Nobody said anything to me about it.

[38:04] RACHEL PARSONS: Yeah. So, yeah, it's interesting. So, like, that's part of it. Like, I feel invisible sometimes, and that's what's hard for me.

[38:12] NICK HNATIW: Yeah. Yeah.

[38:13] RACHEL PARSONS: Like, I feel like I want. I don't know. Like, I was joking. My friend the other day about my hair is growing out, and she was like, she's moving to Indiana. She's like, let me get my queer haircut. And I was like, girl, I look less gay every day. She's like, we need rainbow tattoos on her forehead.

[38:25] NICK HNATIW: Right.

[38:27] RACHEL PARSONS: But, yeah, I don't know. I guess that's one thing. I think it's really different for us in that I feel like we both. I assume we both are feeling very happy with our choice to be together. But I think for me, there's this.

[38:40] NICK HNATIW: Yes, okay.

[38:41] RACHEL PARSONS: But there's this extra layer of, like, this invisibleness that. Like a grieving of Something I'm losing by being here. And I feel grateful we can talk about it. Like, I don't. I think that's. It would have been a requirement for me anyway. But that's kind of the piece, I think, with us, that still feels hard.

[39:03] NICK HNATIW: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Is there a way that that can not be the case? I guess maybe a better question is, like, how would you envision sort of not. Or putting more sort of focus on that part of your life?

[39:26] RACHEL PARSONS: Well, I think for me it's finding community here. But also, like, in the past you've asked me, I thought I knew you was coming from a good place. Was like, is it okay if I tell people that you're queer? Like, yes, please. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's not something that needs to be revealed. Like, I would reveal it multiple times a day. And I still do. Right. For the last 20 years. And so I guess I want that to be a part of me that you're proud of and that you share willingly when it makes sense, obviously.

[39:58] NICK HNATIW: Yeah. I mean, I think when I was asking you that, I was not sure how sort of open you are with people, so I wanted to make sure that I was respecting what your wishes were.

[40:06] RACHEL PARSONS: Yeah, I knew it was coming from love, but it felt kind of like, oh, he doesn't get it. And he thinks that it's secret or something.

[40:15] NICK HNATIW: I mean, not necessarily a secret, but like, not wearing it on your sleeve either.

[40:23] RACHEL PARSONS: I would buy that sleeve.

[40:24] NICK HNATIW: I know.

[40:24] RACHEL PARSONS: Yes.

[40:24] NICK HNATIW: Now I know.

[40:29] RACHEL PARSONS: Anything else you want to ask? I know we're almost out of time.

[40:33] NICK HNATIW: No, I think. I think we're. We're pretty much covered. And I do want to say thank you.

[40:38] RACHEL PARSONS: Thank you very much. Thanks for coming here with me.

[40:40] NICK HNATIW: Of course.

[40:40] RACHEL PARSONS: Valentine's Day. Well, a couple days.

[40:42] NICK HNATIW: Our Valentine's Day.

[40:43] RACHEL PARSONS: Our Valentine's Day. Bye.

[40:47] NICK HNATIW: Bye. Can we go into overtime? Do you want to give a message to your kid?

[40:54] RACHEL PARSONS: Yes. Oh, dear.

[40:56] NICK HNATIW: Oh, geez.

[40:57] RACHEL PARSONS: Yeah, because she is going to listen to this.

[40:58] NICK HNATIW: She is.

[40:59] RACHEL PARSONS: You go first.

[41:03] NICK HNATIW: Okay. James, this is your parents.

[41:07] RACHEL PARSONS: This is your dad talking about.

[41:08] NICK HNATIW: Well, I mean, yeah, obviously this is your dad, but your parents are here. I don't even know what the future is going to be for you. Things seem very confusing right now, and the future seems very not obvious. But I hope that we've given you the tools that you need in order to sort of embrace and endure any of anything that the future has. I am excited to meet you, though.

[41:38] RACHEL PARSONS: In the future.

[41:39] NICK HNATIW: In the future.

[41:42] RACHEL PARSONS: Hi, James. You're welcome for your name, number one. Number two. I mean, I guess one thing I wonder about us is like, you know, I'm sure by the time you're listening to this we've had a conversation or two about my identity and my sexuality. But I just am curious how that will unfold with us. It feels important for me that you know that I'm a queer woman that's raising you and that you can be whoever you want to be or whoever you are. Right. You don't have to. You don't even have to know who that is right now. But you and your father are two of the biggest surprises of my life and they're such beautiful surprises. And you make both of us better people every day. And so I hope one way we can show you how to be a good person is share our authentic selves with you in a way that shows you how to do that with other people. That's it. That's what I want to say.

[42:46] NICK HNATIW: We love.