Tallat Choudry and Seemi Choudry

[00:02] TALLAT CHOUDRY: My name is Tallat Choudry I'm 69 years old and I'm going to be 69 years old in June. And today is the 23rd of February, 2019, and we are in Chicago. I'm here with my daughter Simi, and I'm really looking forward to this interview.

[00:28] SEEMI CHOUDRY: And my name is Simi Choudry I am 30 years old. Today is Saturday, February 23, 2019. We are in the Windy City, city of Chicago. And I am the daughter of Talat Choudry my mother. So to get things started, I think it would be great. We were doing a little bit of this before we walked in. But if you had five words to describe yourself, what would be those five words?

[01:01] TALLAT CHOUDRY: Versatile, vivacious, friendly, gentle, kind.

[01:10] SEEMI CHOUDRY: Those are great words. And can you tell me more about what do you mean when you say vivacious?

[01:18] TALLAT CHOUDRY: Vivacious means someone full of life and being positive and making things work.

[01:25] SEEMI CHOUDRY: And that's a great way of describing yourself. I think, especially as your daughter, I can see how you've done that on a number of times. Making things work. What is your earliest memory of when you had to make things work?

[01:45] TALLAT CHOUDRY: Can I add Alhamdulillah, which is, you know, anything that we praise, we are praising. We immediately think of God, Allah, and we invoke it that it is because of Allah, because of him. Anything good that I have in me?

[02:03] SEEMI CHOUDRY: Absolutely, yeah. Thank you. We must always be reminded of our gratitude. And you've done a really good job at that as well, raising us with an attitude of gratitude. So within the spirit of kind of making things work, when do you think, if you were to take a moment and kind of go through the memorial, the memory archives, when was your first experience of when you had to make things work?

[02:34] TALLAT CHOUDRY: When I got married, my parents had paired me off with the best person who came to our door. The best family, the best person. And when I flew over to United States, the immense distance was. It was just like, unending. I had not imagined United States being so far that the airplane journey was not ending. And, you know, this was 44 years ago. The flight would take 22 hours. It had five stops. So you could never really, like, fully relax because it was just, you know, taking off and landing. And I started, like, getting depressed. And I was with my husband, newly married. We had stayed a month in the country. And I started asking my husband, how long is it going to take? And he said, no, it's going to be a little while. And then I asked again the same question. And I think probably when I asked the third time, he said, okay, go to sleep. So I put my hat in his lap and went to sleep. And it was all, you know, like it's the custom back home when you're married, you have to dress up in your finery, nice clothes, your gold jewelry. So I was wearing my very nice gold earrings. They looked like heavy, but they were really light, very pretty, attractive. And the air hostesses, it was, caught their attention and they saw this young couple, nice looking, and they would come and, you know, were paying attention to us. So that the long journey. So I knew I was like flying over to the U.S. you know, when I was in college, there was one girl who was getting married to someone in the US And I always wished for that. So this was happening, this was a wish come true. But never did I realize that it was going to be so far away.

[04:39] SEEMI CHOUDRY: Right? Yeah. And so like within that spirit, you had to make it work because it was something that you had anticipated, but now it was sort of the reality was facing you much harder than you had thought.

[04:56] TALLAT CHOUDRY: Yeah. You know, when I got my visa from the US Embassy, my brother in law, husband's younger brother, was visiting from Greece and he started teasing me that in our language, he was teasing me like being sarcastic that now you will see. So I didn't understand at that point what he meant because to me everything seemed so exciting. I think later on I understood that he meant that I will be so depressed, feeling so missing the family so much within.

[05:33] SEEMI CHOUDRY: I want to take a moment and recognize sort of what you mean when you say family, because in your life family is really big. You come from a family with 11 siblings. You held, held a very close relationship with your mother, our maternal grandmother, with your grandfather, I mean rather with your father, who's our grandfather. There's a number of times in which you've shared some really unique experiences and interactions that you had with both your mom and your father that made you into the young woman that you became and then the woman and the mother and the sort of wife that you were. So perhaps you can share a little bit about what it was like. You use this term. You know, my parents had paired me off and so I'd really like for you to describe being a young woman in Pakistan and what that was. What did that look like when it was time then to start this next chapter of your life, which was getting married.

[06:43] TALLAT CHOUDRY: Yeah, I think there are many things in one question. So I would focus on being paid off. In my family, there were six boys and Five daughters. There was like a row of four boys and a row of four girls and then two boys and another daughter. So my older brothers were like next to our dad. We were sometimes even more scared of them than our dad. Our dad was more like a friend. I mean, he would teach us things in a friendly manner. And our brothers were very sweet, but we were a little bit scared of them sometimes. And then I have two older sisters and I'm the seventh in line among the younger siblings.

[07:30] SEEMI CHOUDRY: And didn't your father call you something like there is a.

[07:33] TALLAT CHOUDRY: And I was, since I think I had a very cheerful personality. I was very friendly and I was close to my mom. So family started calling me Lado, which means the favorite one. And my earliest memory of my childhood is when I'm clinging to my mom's leg. We were in our ancestral village. We would go there once year, usually in wintertime. And I'm clinging to my mom's leg and my cousins are teasing me. Lado, Lado. So that is my earliest memory of my childhood. And I would always, you know, being close to your mom is. You will always want to do what she, what pleases her. And I knew that whatever she's saying is for my own good. She was a disciplinarian, but she was always gentle, nice with me because I was always the law abiding.

[08:31] SEEMI CHOUDRY: The law abiding and the favored one. And so there was a lot of trust then that you had placed in both of your parents for them to ultimately make the decision of who you were going to marry.

[08:44] TALLAT CHOUDRY: Yeah, and also because I was religious, you know, in our religion you have to pray five times, you have to dress appropriately. So I think when I was at that age, I was still wearing dresses and not covering my legs. So one day came, my mom said, okay, now you're grown up, you have to cover your legs. Means like wear pants. Shalwar is the local pant. You have to wear shalwar. And now you have to start saying your prayers. So from that day onwards I started saying five time prayers. It came so easily. And before that there was a short period of time I was feeling, why isn't my mom, my mom checking on me, you know, like reprimanding me that I'm just doing whatever I like. Like dressing the way like. So one day came, she had to just say it once and everything fell in place.

[09:34] SEEMI CHOUDRY: And so there is, there's always been, even as your daughter, I've heard, you know, a number of times in which you've described what Something that you learned from our grandmother, something that she shared with you. And it was always within the spirit of. I only had to hear it once. And after that I knew, like. And in some cases it was not even hearing it, it was just seeing it. Like that look. Right. Can you describe that look?

[10:03] TALLAT CHOUDRY: Yeah. You know, I became conscious of that look. We are referring to when I was married and already with kids. And once we were visiting, we were back home and we had gone up to the hill town of Murray, you know, where people go in summer. And we had a cottage. So, you know, four of us were married. The sisters, I think all of us were married by then. And we were talking about our kids, you know, like a little bit. Small complaints here and there. And my mom was listening all this time. She was quiet and she was listening. She only said one sentence. She said, you know, when your kids grow taller than you, you have to respect them. So. And by that time I was begging her to realize that mom. My mom is not giving us that look, you know, it was just. She didn't have to put it in words. It was just one look. And we would freeze that whatever you have said or done was not appropriate.

[11:09] SEEMI CHOUDRY: Yeah.

[11:10] TALLAT CHOUDRY: So. And we would become conscious and they didn't. It didn't have to be put in words again because it was said once and once was enough.

[11:19] SEEMI CHOUDRY: I'm pretty sure that when that happened, I was still at your knees, or maybe I wasn't even born yet. So I wasn't going to get that respect just yet.

[11:27] TALLAT CHOUDRY: And if you didn't, if you kept on doing like being a belligerent, then there came the Thapar from the dad, not the mom.

[11:36] SEEMI CHOUDRY: Right. And so I want to take a moment and kind of. Because this was a big part, there was a big sort of juncture that took place. You know, you were, I believe, 23 years old leading up to the moment in which you, you know, got married to dad.

[11:57] TALLAT CHOUDRY: Yeah.

[11:57] SEEMI CHOUDRY: And got married to Abuja. And. And before then there. So sort of setting the stage that before then there was a moment where you've shared with us. You were in a kind of a geography class or a history class, and you had learned about a country in Latin America which was. And you described it in a particular way. So can you walk me through that process of. Because you knew you were going to another country, you signed up for a marriage in which you were going to leave Pakistan and go to the United States, but what you didn't know was what was going to happen a couple of years later. So can you talk a little bit about that?

[12:38] TALLAT CHOUDRY: Yeah, the previous question. Yeah, the previous question I think had a second part to it, like about getting paired.

[12:46] SEEMI CHOUDRY: Right.

[12:46] TALLAT CHOUDRY: And we didn't, I didn't get to, you know, talk about that. So I can answer the current question now and then go back. I think I was in first grade, which is fourth grade in my childhood, and we were doing geography and we were studying different countries where oil is produced. Like, you know, there's oil is found. And Venezuela came up and I mean some of the other countries I had heard and I was familiar and this was a long name of, I felt a weird name, what a strange name. And little did I know that after being married and being here in the United States for just a little over a year or 16 months, I will be moving to Venezuela. We were moved for 18 months. But you know, I will elaborate later on how long we'll stay.

[13:39] SEEMI CHOUDRY: I was born there.

[13:41] TALLAT CHOUDRY: Yes. Yeah, we moved with an eight month old child and moved back 22 years later. Of course, every year we were getting home leave, coming back to get our paperwork renewed and then every other year we would get that done and every other year we would fly over to Pakistan, usually during summertime when the kids were school going. And so we ended up being there 22 years. And my spouse Tausif, he stayed another two years, putting in six weeks there of work and coming back for two weeks working here also. So that way we got to see each other. We put up with that for two more years. And then, you know, the three of us decided, molded Ad Shafak and see, me and myself, we don't want the money, we want the man. Because we were still getting the overseas allowances and all the perks and with my husband working there. And we decided no, enough was enough. We have made use of this for not 18 months. It has passed 18 years also. So now we want him back. So he came back after 24 years and he was made the division head for seven countries and he. So we saw less of him when he came back.

[15:02] SEEMI CHOUDRY: Well, and yeah, and I want to take a moment of pause and kind of recognize how much has happened in that time period because you described, you know, basically over two decades, which is quite significant. You know, in that process you became a mother, right. Like to my oldest brother, Asad bhai. And then, you know, you, after eight months after becoming a mother, you then moved to Venezuela. So perhaps you can walk us through, like walk, you know, walk me through what that felt like. I can't imagine for myself, what it would be like to uproot so quickly, you know, after having such monumental things happen.

[15:52] TALLAT CHOUDRY: Right.

[15:53] SEEMI CHOUDRY: Like getting married and then having a child. So do you remember how you felt, you know, in those moments between moving and becoming a mother?

[16:02] TALLAT CHOUDRY: Right. While growing up, I had heard, you know, over different occasions that he got an overseas assignment. And that meant, you know, it's, it's a huge deal. You're going to get paid more, you will be traveling more, and it will be all company expense. So when my husband brought it up, I was all for it. I encouraged him and because I knew he was like one of the top notch professionals, he was like brilliant as a student. He finished his master's at Iowa State in a year and a half. And then not only that, he was also working. He got some work on the side and then he got a job right away and he stayed with that job all his life. So I knew it was going to be a good thing for us. And here we were. And I studied all my schooling, like not college. The school years were in a convention. My dad, who was in the army, it was the tradition to send the boys off to army, to cadet colleges and the daughters to convents. So we had exposure of the nuns and of different people. One of my teachers was from Ceylon, from Sri Lanka it was called at that time. So that had opened up our minds to variety, to multi religion, multicultural. I think it was huge. And also one thing that I noticed with my dad especially, you know, after coming overseas, was that when you hear so much about bias and racism and prejudice, that meant dad never ever even once referred to skin color or any like economic class, someone being superior or inferior or, you know, talking in any form of bias or religious or color, religious or cultural bias. So that is how I grew up with.

[18:17] SEEMI CHOUDRY: And I think that made a big impact in a number of ways. And I can say for myself, for example, when it was time for me to go to another high school, which I advocated quite hard for, it was easy for. It was easier for you. It wasn't easy, but it was certainly easier for you. When I asked about going to an all girls Catholic high school to switch from Islamic school. And there was a level of familiarity there, given that you, like you were sharing just now, went to convent school. So I guess there's a couple things that you said there that I'm curious about and I hear because as your daughter, I've always. And as someone who's been a beneficiary of your worldview and the fact that you are, I would say, a global citizen. Right. Like, you've traveled a lot, you've experienced a lot from a young age. I am curious to know kind of, you know, like, I've always seen you as my mom, as an anomaly. Like, you are a nutritionist, you are a naturopath, you are an educator. You're someone who is a very determined person as well. And not to say that there's not, of course, there's a lot of people that are determined in our world, but an anomaly in comparison to your peers. And so, like, when I take a step back and kind of look around and see a lot of your peers, like South Asian woman of the same age group, a lot of times they married a doctor. Right. And like, dad is. Abuja is not a doctor. Abuji is a hydroelectric engineer. So, like, clearly that wasn't something. I mean, I'm just assuming now, but it seemed as though it wasn't something that was important to you. And there might have been something that was different that was important to you. So I'm. I want you to share, like, a little bit about what has led you into these paths. You know, like a Pakistani mother who speaks Spanish, who, like, Venezuela is a huge part of you, Pakistan's a huge part of you. America is a United States of America is a huge part of you. Like, what is it in you that has allowed you to, like, take the, you know, not to take. What is it called? Like, the path less traveled. Right, yeah.

[20:42] TALLAT CHOUDRY: Less Jordan.

[20:43] SEEMI CHOUDRY: Yeah.

[20:46] TALLAT CHOUDRY: Yeah. I feel I am so privileged, so fortunate to have had a great childhood. My father was educated. He attended law at one of the top notch colleges. He was morally conscious. He was also very religious, but with a very open mind. He never enforced things on us. We were taught all the basics, you know, or tenets of the religion. And then he gave us the choice. And he was a very loving, sweet person. So I tried to incorporate all of those in my character. And he was the oldest child. There were five males in the family and one female. And all five of them grew up in the village. My father, my grandfather was. Was a landowner, but he was also educated. He was working with. At that time, it was a British colony, and he was working as a clerk. My grandfather, which was the highest position that you could get, and he was in the irrigation department, which meant that, you know, you got some perks. For example, one of the biggest perks was that your land got two and a half times the allotment of water. And water is a scarce commodity. And we have artificial irrigation, as I mentioned. You know, from the big river they make smaller streams and from the smaller streams, even smaller ones. So. And he made sure that his kids got a good schooling. He started. Our village was three miles away from the closest city, which is called Sargodha. And he even started a school there. So once they had done the basic elementary schooling in the village, probably I think they went to that school. And there were no railroads, no metal roads. I mean, transportation was extremely poor. All that you could go on was a bullock cart which was very slow. You know, only the farmers used that to haul cargo or donkeys. So they would ride donkeys to cover the three mile stretch each day to go to school in Sargodha. So from there on they, they got enrolled in FCC College, which is Forman Christian College, which was one of the elite colleges of the country which the British had set up. And they had, at that time, it was pre partition, you know, there was no India or Pakistan, it was just one country. So they had British professors. It was like the top notch education you could get. So all five boys, one after the other, they got admission there. My dad was the oldest, he did law. The one younger to him did med study studies. He became a doctor. The third one, I did something in Persian and he would be reciting Persian poetry just off his, you know, off his head anytime he. And he would just get so deeply into it. And the fourth one is still alive in Ottawa. He's an aeronautical engineer. He did his master's in Purdue. And last year I had the good opportunity of going to meet with him. And the youngest one, he was a dentist. And after his studies, undergrad studies in fcc, he was sent overseas to England to get further education. The two youngest ones, and my dad financed both of them to come, so he had the vision that they need to get higher studies.

[24:27] SEEMI CHOUDRY: So it seems like if you were to draw a line between what you've just shared right now and we were to call that line something, it would be called. This is my assessment education.

[24:41] TALLAT CHOUDRY: Yes.

[24:41] SEEMI CHOUDRY: And so I'm. Why is education so important? I want you to share, you shared a little bit about why that is, but I want you to talk about.

[24:50] TALLAT CHOUDRY: On my dad's side. Yeah, thank you. On my dad's side of the family, education was a huge priority. My mom's side of the family, they lived like two train stations away. They were like three miles away from the train station. My dad's village was half a mile from the train station. And that was huge because there was no Transportation. And my maternal grandfather had much more lands, huge tracts of land compared to my paternal grandfather who had like one fourth of what my maternal grandfather had. But you know, my paternal grandfather was educated. He had the vision. And so he put that into action, his vision and he got his sons educated. Whereas it was the mentality before that if you own so much land, then you know, the kids became lax, especially the males. They didn't want to be educated. There weren't that many opportunities. And as in my dad's case, they were closer to the city, they were closer to the train station later on when the trains came into form. And so they had the advantage of shorter distance and plus the vision of my grandfather.

[26:06] SEEMI CHOUDRY: And how does that sort of, kind of within that story? Because there's kind of what we were saying earlier, like there's determination, there's perseverance. How did that ultimately impact you?

[26:20] TALLAT CHOUDRY: Yes, I think I still have to finish the first part that education has just like my family has just gone up socioeconomically whereas my mom's side of the family has gone down socioeconomically because of lack of education and because no one got really like college education in that family. So they're still struggling with education. They are getting their kids educated, but they still continue living in the village and they have not progressed.

[26:55] SEEMI CHOUDRY: Whereas you got both an undergraduate and a graduate education, right? Yeah. And you received both of those in, where was it in Pakistan?

[27:04] TALLAT CHOUDRY: Home economics. Yeah.

[27:06] SEEMI CHOUDRY: And ultimately like you even pushed yourself into a PhD program as well.

[27:12] TALLAT CHOUDRY: Yes. You know, when I was growing up, if you didn't get into like med school, you know, you had to do have some basics in sciences in order to go to med school or engineering school. And engineering school was not popular for girls, it was only med school. So I didn't make the cut for the med school. So my oldest brother who was also in the army, he probably had come across some families, some friends, friends who were sending their daughters to home economics, which was a new school college set up by The Ford Foundation, U.S. ford Foundation. And so he had heard great things about that. So what ended up happening was I was not happy in the college I was going to in my parents city in Rawalpindi. So he pulled me out of that college, convinced my parents, my parents were confused, they didn't know what was happening. So he put me into this home economics college. And once I went there, I started college, I was dorming. It opened up a whole new world for me.

[28:18] SEEMI CHOUDRY: And can you say ameef just in a few words what is home economics?

[28:21] TALLAT CHOUDRY: Home economics. I was studying nutrition, housing. And what was the clothing and textiles? Housing, childcare, family relations, everything. Psychology. Psychology was thrown in everything in food, how you present it, in clothes, how you dress up. Everything mattered, you know, it was psychology. And in how, in the type of environment you're living in, in the type of clothes you're wearing, in the type of food you're eating and presenting, everything was related to psychology. So and my professors, they were all, they had come to the US and they had studied here. You know, they had done their post graduation studies here. So they were all enlightened. So I was like a completely different person. I was so happy, I was so motivated and I made the most of it.

[29:19] SEEMI CHOUDRY: And it sounds like you said something that's really, I think, a very important part to, I find within South Asian families, immigrant families, it's individuals who come from the subcontinent. Now, this is a broad statement, but if I were to assess it in a few words, I would say that in many ways, social mobility is largely hinged on education. And so when especially, you know, like when you and Abu came to the United States, it was sort of this, like, we're going to receive higher education because Abu first came here to get his master's and ultimately joined him as well. And there is this, you know, there's like this American dream we're going to realize, and it includes, you know, mobility. In your case, mobility was a huge part of it because you moved to United States and even while you were here, you moved to a couple different states. You were both in Virginia and in Illinois and then. But then ultimately you took like the grand voyage to Venezuela. So if we could shift gears a little bit, I want to kind of focus on perhaps like what it was like for you as someone who didn't speak Spanish, as someone who was still wearing those, you know, beautiful golden earrings, because you're still kind of technically a newlywed now, you're a new, new mother and you've landed on this foreign land which ultimately became home for us and became my birth country, a place that I shared dual citizenship with. So I want perhaps you can tell me a little bit more about what that felt like being there and what it was about Venezuela that ultimately made that feel like home for you.

[31:07] TALLAT CHOUDRY: Yeah, I think I came with a huge advantage when I was doing my post grad studies in home economics. I had done my undergrad and then I joined the post grad studies when we were close to the end of that two year period. It was the largest group ever, 22 of us. The principal called in all of us and she spoke to us. So after that she made a job offer to me to work in the college. And I looked at that job offer. I thought about it, I was away from home for six years and I said, no, I cannot do that. I want to go back to my family. So I.

[31:53] SEEMI CHOUDRY: How old were you when that happened?

[31:54] TALLAT CHOUDRY: I was I think like 20, 21.

[31:58] SEEMI CHOUDRY: Okay.

[31:58] TALLAT CHOUDRY: Yeah. So I didn't even consult with my parents. But I told the principal that, you know, my family has not agreed that I should accept this job because I just was wanting to get out of that. I've been there for six years away from home and I wanted to be back. So that gave me a huge boost that out of 22 students I was chosen. And also while growing up, you know, being like the, called the favorite one and you know, being having a personality that was always attracting, attracting attention and getting love from others, from family, friends, everyone, it gave me further self esteem. So I didn't accept this job. Then I got another job interview and I got selected as lecturer to start a new home economics department. It was one of the very popular fields and I believe in the 50s it was one of the most popular fields in the us. So I got this job offer and I'm being interviewed by this group. One of them was the principal of the college I was being interviewed for. Then there was a brigadier and a third person, I don't remember. So one of the questions that was asked was how many? It was not correct that question. How many? It should have been calories are there in this type of food. So I very politely, you know, I said how many calories? They had used another word.

[33:37] SEEMI CHOUDRY: Okay.

[33:37] TALLAT CHOUDRY: So you know, I was confident to be able to correct that gently. So that must have given them the impression that I know what I'm doing. So I accepted that job. It was in another town, I had to commute. We were given a place to stay.

[33:55] SEEMI CHOUDRY: What was the town called?

[33:56] TALLAT CHOUDRY: Wah Cant.

[33:58] SEEMI CHOUDRY: Okay.

[33:59] TALLAT CHOUDRY: Over there is the Pakistan's largest ammunition industry. So I started working that college. We were given a place. It wasn't that appropriate that place. You know, we were just given a couple of rooms which were like, you know, the stage, the rooms behind the stage. So we were there. It was a temporary arrangement. Excuse me. We stayed there for a year and then later on we found some other place. So I had worked almost year and a half before I got married. And when the match where I was getting married was finalized, I decided to leave my job because I didn't like the living arrangement. So I stayed home for, I think it was like a couple of months and did all the sewing for my. I made my own bridal dress. I made dresses for my sisters, beautiful ones and very complicated ones, you know, like stitching different color materials on the bias and the garara. So I got a lot of satisfaction from that because before I decided to do it on my own, I was going from one tailor to another and I had given something to be sewn and it was not right. So since I learned how to sew, I decided to do it for two months. I was sitting on the machine and did. Made all my truths of my clothes that I was going to wear most of them. So that I came with the advantage, a distinct advantage. When I got married, I had a postgraduate degree which gave me the equivalency of 16 years of education here, of undergrad, and I had 16 years of education there because our high school is up to 10 grades. And then we have four years undergrad and then two years because of the.

[35:55] SEEMI CHOUDRY: A levels and O levels.

[35:57] TALLAT CHOUDRY: So I later on, you know, I felt that every girl should get a master's degree. When I was getting in, I said, oh, you know, what a bummer. Girls are getting married. And now, you know, once I got came over here, I said that was such a huge advantage. And then when I started working as a high school English teacher was based on that experience.

[36:17] SEEMI CHOUDRY: Well, and that's what really helped, right, Because I remember you've shared with us because this was before, I think either my sister or I either Shafak or I was born, that there was a point when you were now living in Guri in Venezuela, where there was. Maybe you can describe that interaction with the. At the.

[36:36] TALLAT CHOUDRY: Yes. So I have to emphasize that when I got married, I was moving, coming with the. With a. As an advantaged person, you know, with the education, with the job experience and with the. I was going to get the undergraduate equivalence, and that's huge. So we were here, and as soon as we came, I went with my spouse. I requested him to take me to the education department. I want to see how I can get my equivalency.

[37:03] SEEMI CHOUDRY: And where were you?

[37:04] TALLAT CHOUDRY: We were in Chicago. We have not moved yet. And so we came and they said, you know, I will need this, this, this. Then, you know, I was expecting not feeling too, you know, like, which education department was this? I don't remember. But I came with him on the train to the city.

[37:21] SEEMI CHOUDRY: Okay, Y.

[37:24] TALLAT CHOUDRY: Getting to be a mom right away. Expecting my first child, nauseated. So I put that on the back burner. And then soon I had my first child. He was the most adorable baby I had seen. And my husband already had some experience with his niece Nagma, whom he adored. So he helped out a lot. And I was the happiest person, I think that took care of my homesickness, having a baby right away, right? Yeah.

[37:58] SEEMI CHOUDRY: And that baby, who's my older brother, Asadbhai, at some point ended up being your student, was it?

[38:07] TALLAT CHOUDRY: No, I've taught in the same school. In the international school.

[38:10] SEEMI CHOUDRY: Right, right.

[38:10] TALLAT CHOUDRY: He was eight months old when we moved. And then two years, one month, one day later, I had my second one.

[38:17] SEEMI CHOUDRY: Yeah.

[38:18] TALLAT CHOUDRY: So Kashif Sadhguru's older one. And they have been like, close to each other. They have been like, inseparable. They've been friends and everything. Good unit. So it was. It was great having them. You know, I would have planned to have the two, three years apart, but since we moved to Venezuela and there was help available, my friends started talking me into having the second one soon. So that's how it happened, right? Yeah.

[38:45] SEEMI CHOUDRY: And then you. You always talk about how you really, really wanted a daughter.

[38:51] TALLAT CHOUDRY: You know, when Kashi was five years old, I was registering them for school. And when the principal noticed my education and said, would you be interested in working here next year? I said, sure. So that's where I got hired as the high school English teacher. And I worked there for two years. And so Asad and Kashi were in the same school.

[39:15] SEEMI CHOUDRY: In what town was this?

[39:16] TALLAT CHOUDRY: This was in Ghori. You know, there was an existing dam, but they wanted to enlarge it, which ended up becoming among the 10th largest dams in the world. And they had the U.S. company Bechtel, which is very famous for those projects. They had worked in Pakistan on the Mangla Dam, and they were hired to do the work.

[39:37] SEEMI CHOUDRY: How long were you guys doing?

[39:38] TALLAT CHOUDRY: It was a great job offer, getting paid in US dollars and all the perks. And plus, when we had the first meeting, not meeting, but like a first social to meet the teachers. Two of them had lived in Pakistan and they went gaga when they saw that someone from Pakistan was there. They were super excited. And they spoke about all the great experience in Pakistan in the 60s. There were no labor, labor problem, labor unrest. No had ever heard about that. They finished their project one year ahead of time and they got a huge bonus from that. And it was one of the great experiences.

[40:18] SEEMI CHOUDRY: And what ultimately led To a very strong infrastructure for not only that town, but the region.

[40:27] TALLAT CHOUDRY: It was called Little America. We went on a field trip to Mangala Dam. And when it was still, you know, the people were there, the Americans were there, they had their bowling alley and everything. And it was just great being able to visit there.

[40:44] SEEMI CHOUDRY: And how long were you in Guri for?

[40:46] TALLAT CHOUDRY: I mean, we were in Guri for eight years.

[40:49] SEEMI CHOUDRY: Okay.

[40:49] TALLAT CHOUDRY: Yeah. And my husband would. He just loved it. He played tennis after work.

[40:56] SEEMI CHOUDRY: Yeah.

[40:56] TALLAT CHOUDRY: And we had just the boys at that point. And then, you know, of course wanted to have a. Have a daughter and it just happened. We just.

[41:07] SEEMI CHOUDRY: And because Baji is the only one that was born in Bodhi, right?

[41:11] TALLAT CHOUDRY: Yeah. So my second and third one are seven years apart. For me, it was like raising two set of kids. But I have thoroughly enjoyed the boys and the girls. So after Shapak was like four years old or so, she started, you know, my friends would come and I remember one of my Nigerian friends was home and she went up to her and said, do you have a sister? So at that point I felt, oh, my God, you know, I have enjoyed my sister so much. We are so close to each other up to this day. And then I started wishing for her sister and it just happened, you know, so we have two surprise babies whom we love, we adore, we've enjoyed.

[41:57] SEEMI CHOUDRY: I remember going around and I think I was like a kid and I would say, oh, you know, do you know that I was a surprise baby? And then my sister was like, you're not supposed to go around and promote that to the whole world, you know. And so I didn't really realize what that totally meant, but certainly have been, have felt within the spirit of attitude, of gratitude, like what a blessing it is to have an older sister and to share in that. We've always seen it modeled with you and your sisters that value of sisterhood. And I'm very grateful for that.

[42:35] TALLAT CHOUDRY: And I was, you know, when I was expecting my third child, we were in Ghori, which is a very remote place, but one of the best on site camps in the world. So they hired the best doctors. They had very good hospital facilities. So Dr. Cardenas is the one who was my doctor. And he would each time say that it's a boy. And I would like, you know, plead with him, please let me be happy for nine months until the end. He said, the heartbeat is so strong. It's a boy. And even at one of the socials, my husband's boss, he said, let me look at your Hand or teacup? No. First he asked the history because they could see that I was expecting a baby, and he wanted to know the history. So five males, my husband's side, six males on my side. And then my father, five males and one sister. And my mom had four brothers and three. He said, it's going to be a boy. So everywhere there was indication that it's a boy. So when we had Shafa, even the doctor, we were so thrilled that it was a girl. We were so happy. And I would dress up her up in the finest clothes. Not that I didn't do that with the boys. I would just enter any store and pick up anything I liked and dress up.

[44:04] SEEMI CHOUDRY: Because now you could play dress up.

[44:06] TALLAT CHOUDRY: Yeah. Yes.

[44:07] SEEMI CHOUDRY: Yeah.

[44:08] TALLAT CHOUDRY: And then five years later, we had a surprise baby. See me home. She was adorable. So, like a Snow White. So lovable. And. And the siblings enjoyed so much, and I have thoroughly enjoyed. And when I was expecting you, and it's so funny, I told my second son, Kashif, that, you know, I'm expecting, and he got so excited, he held my neck.

[44:39] SEEMI CHOUDRY: That was his way of showing his excitement.

[44:42] TALLAT CHOUDRY: I was like, gosh, you're not supposed to. He didn't know what to. Just held my neck. And then I asked them, my husband and them, what they would like to have. And all three of them said, a boy. And I said, what are you going to do with the third boy? Let it be a girl.

[44:59] SEEMI CHOUDRY: So we are so grateful that your prayers were answered.

[45:02] TALLAT CHOUDRY: Yes. We were so grateful that we had a second daughter. And my oldest brother, he wrote me a letter after he heard about our fourth child. And I remember he said, how can you plan things so well? And he was referring to, like, you know, I've had two boys and then two girls. And I said, alhamdulillah, it's all from God, from Allah. And he's been very kind, very grateful to me. I had an extraordinary husband, extraordinary family. He comes from a very, very good family. They're all very sweet, loving, and I just cannot express myself. I have enough words to thank God. Thank God for my good fortune and good upbringing.

[45:54] SEEMI CHOUDRY: Thank you. Well, within the spirit of good kids, good husband, in the spirit of thanking God and being grateful, I'm grateful for the time that you took to share a piece, a small piece of your story with me this afternoon. Amiji. Thank you.

[46:12] TALLAT CHOUDRY: Thank you. Thank you for bringing me here.