Mark Medrano and Mary Bess Ser

00:06 All right. My name is Mark Medrano. I am 24 years old today's date is Saturday, September 21st, 2019. We are here at the Chicago Cultural Center in Chicago, Illinois, and I will be interviewed by best today.

00:23 Hi, my name is best year. I am 41 years old today's date is September 21st, 2019. We are in Chicago, Illinois, and I'm here with Mark Medrano and I just met Mark today.

00:38 So mark

00:40 How would you describe yourself so currently? I am a second your graduate student at the University of Illinois, Chicago. I am currently pursuing a teaching of history majors. So I am pursuing a licensed as a high-school teacher for the state of Illinois little quick background about myself. I was born to a Filipino immigrant parents here in Chicago.

01:07 Trinus

01:10 Yeah, I was basically raised in the Roman Catholic household went to a Catholic grade school kindergarten through 8th grade and I went through a couple high schools before I graduated and went to UIC for my undergrad which was in history. And then I and then later on I enlisted in the Army Reserve currently a human resource specialist will actually Emma Cadet now. I I went back to you. I see for my graduate program and I went with ROTC which I'm currently with right now and yeah, here we are today.

01:42 So you grew up in Chicago have basically been in Chicago my whole life. Like I was born and raised on the northwest side. I mean, I was born on the North side, but I am a White Sox fan. So I'm kind of a bit of a conundrum right over there. So I kind of tend to touch on certain people's nerves and never I mention that

02:05 Who has been an important person in your life just growing up or or currently. I think the first person that comes to mind and you know, this is where the meat of my little background story comes in was my case manager Jamie. So just as a quick background story on back when I was 14 years old. It was my first year of high school and from the onset of actually was bullied a lot. So I got picked on I got to take advantage of, you know, people started spreading a lot of like, you know, rumors about me which you know, the kind of really contributed to a lot of emotional instability cuz of how alone I was and I didn't really have much to

02:56 You know turn to and it came to the point where I gone to a lot of like all mine exchanges on Facebook and you know

03:08 It was really just a back and forth like an up-and-down of just like them up sort of the mood like the anger the intensity and towards the end of the semester. It actually kind of took a really bad turn when I actually threatened to hurt and kill like all of my friends and visit. This is just an emotional outburst. And you know, I didn't know I had no idea what I was saying. I know it would have seen on Facebook, but I was just ranting on Facebook posting all these like filing statuses and we're just frightening people and this was sort of like my instinct to sort of Innocence establish dominance over those were bullying me and obviously like, you know, this was on Facebook. So people were were all seeing it and so, you know, my school is notified.

03:51 LA Police pulled me out of class to sort of have that little talk with me with my counselor instead of trying to get an understanding of what I had actually done and so I actually ended up leaving class leaving school early and then a couple days later me and my parents were called to do a meeting with the dean and at that point. I was basically expelled from my school and I was referred to a Mental Health institution. And that's that that's where I'm at, Jamie but you know what sort of in between those times I had some teachers I had some friends who are still there for me in spite of like all the really messed-up stuff that I posted and you know, the fact that they were still there for me still kind of stunned me in a sense and you know, like I was just thinking myself. I just said all that stuff to you and yet you're still here for me and then you know, I had this couple teachers that say, you know,

04:45 People people get pissed off all the time and you know people kind of get them to a lot of emotional outbursts and I remember my band teacher

04:56 Who are pulled me aside after the end of class and he really assured me that in spite of all the stuff that I did in spite of the fact that I was like going for some mental health therapy that he's so concerned me, you know, you know someone with potential to be better than what I was before and I'm not really that really stuck with me even as I did my month of therapy and you know my case manager Jamie that this is when she comes in, you know, she was very

05:24 Honest, she was very caring. She was very understanding. She didn't look down on me in spite of all the things that I did and you know it really

05:32 Episode of sort of like confuse me in a sense cuz I knew that I had done something really really really bad but no other posts that you I thought it was something like that let you know. I'm sorry. I'm kind of looks stuttering a little bit cuz it's kind of hard to talk about but it's sort of

05:56 It sort of resonated with me.

05:59 That you know, I initially thought that these things that I posted we're going to Define my future for for the rest of my life. I've already thought that all the stuff I did was going to leave me down to spat that would sort of send me down the school-to-prison pipeline and you know, it was just something that I was constantly afraid of I was just living in fear for like that month cuz I didn't know what was going to happen to me after that. But my case manager really sort of Build Me Up and sort of tried to bring out the positive aspects that I had such as like being able to care for others being able to empathize with people's pain and just sort of like really being persistent in spite of all the things that have happened to me and so like Jamie really encouraged those traits and me and sort of like help me to strengthen myself not really overlooked, but you're not but acknowledging my mistakes in a way that

06:55 Motivates me to be better than I was yesterday, and he didn't feel judged by her. No. Yes, you can judge me. She was like very caring like, you know, she should really like she greeted me with a smile. She treated me like, you know that as a friend and a sense of family and you know that feeling a family like it really sort of

07:16 Kind of like rekindling me like my War towards other people cuz he know back after those things that happened. I felt cut off and basically everyone even my own family and I mean, of course it took a while. I mean took me awhile. I mean I went to another school and that's when I started readjusting and you know, and then I had a couple hiccups on the way ended up homeschooling myself for the following semester than the one to another high school where I finally graduated but

07:46 You know all the all these lessons I learned about like really not letting your mistakes to find your past really resonated in like what career wanted to pursue.

07:58 And

08:01 You know, like the fact that it was like teachers and counselors that really motivated me to be better than my yesterday. You know. I wanted in a sense a career that would help pay that forward.

08:15 Endom

08:18 You know in teaching really started to kind of like it began to be something that is wanted to think about for a little more cuz it was just something that you don't have to feel blessed by all these things that these people taught me that I wanted to be able to share those with other people around me so that they know that they can be better than there yesterday cuz I didn't think that this was going to be something I could keep to myself. It was something that I feel like I could share with other people so that they in turn and sort of like innocence spread it to other people just sort of create this Perpetual like paying it forward cycle and you know, that's why I really wanted to be a teacher. I really wanted to work with like students who had struggles just like mine when I was a student myself and you know, I wanted to be a more available resource for them and sort of like making sure that they have a smoother transition of the struggles.

09:10 Unlike me who kind of had to

09:13 Work my way out of it, and I also want to set an example to students to sort of.

09:20 Not letting you know their mistakes, like let them think that their mistakes are going to be with the find some for the rest of their life that they still have the potential to be great. They still. But had the potential to really go beyond like what they think their limits are and sort of seeing how beautiful that can be when they push past your limits money push past all the negativity when they push past all the bullying and all the negativity from other people and that's just something that I really want to get a sense Echo.

09:56 Do you like this journey has given you more compassion for the person that you were when all of this went down because you know looking back and you know, seeing like the resources that I kind of had to dig for like me know it was a struggle trying to like figure out what resources I could use some sort of better myself, but now that I actually have a grasp of these resources like grass of these networks that I know now. I know that I can still be able to survive extended. The students so that they have an easier time finding it unlike me.

10:29 Did you do you remember reaching out to anyone for help when you were struggling with a bullying and just so you know, I have a feeling of loneliness. I didn't really feel like I could turn to anyone cuz I kind of sort of felt I will I sort of felt that you know, I was being quote-unquote like the snitch cuz I felt like I was going to be some sort of retaliation if I tried to reach out so there was a bit of hesitancy in there. So that's why it's sort of like contributed to the you know, the the the acceleration of that intensity. And so that's what really that's what that's that's sort of that's another wasn't I also want to convey the students has like never be afraid of retaliation cuz I want to be the one that stands up for those who are afraid of being like retaliated against if they try to reach out.

11:26 So, I mean it's for me like this experience and like where I'm at right now as studying to be a teacher is

11:35 Sort of them.

11:38 Being the one being the one teacher being the one that I wish I had back when I was a student.

11:59 So I'm process like before, you know from switching schools. And did you say you can't remember which branch of the military you said you were also with the Army Reserve a actually enlisted after I graduated college finished. My bachelor's a year early and back in the 2016.

12:25 That was a that was a point where I didn't really know what I was going to do. And so I started looking into the military cuz I mean I had a cousin that served in the Navy I had a great-uncle dad was in World War II and you know, the military something that I kind of had been on and off of back when I was like 10 years old and it was something that really interested me, but it wasn't until after I graduated with my bachelor's when I graduated from undergrad that, you know, I really started considering a career in the military. So

12:58 I got to see recruiter. I got in contact with him and we basically went to the whole like no recruitment process when a basic training and AIT and all that and

13:10 No, it was a really interesting experience like being able to develop my professional skills like in the reserves and I know it's not like as much as I can do it as I can do full-time like it in on active duty, but the reserves at the time that I have in there. It's kind of like been a really interesting experience of sort of seeing how I interact with leadership seeing how I interact with colleagues and sort of Innocence developing my own personal code of honor in like, you know dealing with other people and dealing with my career and sort of like maintaining that Integrity of character and really being able to pursue being better than I was yesterday Source or it's a really does connected with my career as a teacher cuz like I really want to like set that example as a leader set that example as a teacher set that example as a fellow student and really constantly wanting to better myself and to really maintain my own integrity and sort of like being able to be consistently like

14:08 Consistently honorable and how I like deal with my students consistently professional how I deal with my colleagues and really wanting to

14:19 Sort of being able to develop students like mmss said earlier like develop students beyond what they think their limits are.

14:32 She said you grew up Catholic.

14:36 How is that how is your religious belief? How was your spiritual beliefs and religious beliefs changed throughout your your life. Do you think I think it's definitely like helped me in a sense evolved past like my past mistakes cuz I mean my parents would take like my I think my me and my family we definitely started praying more often after I got expelled for my first high school cuz we were desperate to find another school to really like transfer to before the next semester start at so I wasn't left behind and you know, we were just like praying really hard that I would be able to get out of that therapy session being able to get back to school as soon as I can and you know it really

15:18 I'd really like them taught me the importance of really Keeping the Faith to really like push on and coincidentally at the same time when I got back to regular schooling after after that month at the for my mental health therapy. I was invited to this youth group that I

15:43 That I am the I was just youth group that I was invited to it was a kind of like a youth retreat adjoining retreat in a sense. And initially, I wasn't really really confident about it as really hesitant bottles could be one of those crazy. Jesus camps just like do I really want to do this? But you know at the last minute I said, yes, and I decided to go and at this particular bird feeder a lot of people and you know, the group was mainly Filipino. So it was a lot of people that I could easily identify with and you know, they were catholic like me they were Filipino like me there roughly High School age like me and so they did the series of talks on like the basic stuff like Catholic belief and how the how their Community works and throughout the weekend, you know throughout like the spiritual talks to one-on-ones the talent shows like all the fellowship nights like, you know,

16:35 I was sort of awaken to the fact that I can practice my faith of people that I can easily identify with and you know, the fact that I come from a very lonely place after I got expelled like, you know, I was more than happy to find me a new family a new community that I could call my own and it's actually like a group that I'm still involved with like today. I mean, I don't like 9 years ago, but I'm still with them today and I'm currently in the sort of I mean, this is a I mean there is a used computer. We also have the young adult group for old for new an older audience and you know, I still work with them and some of the people that were at the Youth of free time so speaking with them today and you know like that Community is really help me evolve to sort of improve my personal and social skills to really kind of look at myself.

17:20 As something more some a sum of potential like not defined by my mistakes not defined by the you know the ways that I've heard other people. Anyway, you know, it's also probably be humble to other people to really not

17:36 Not really be over overbearing be very angry at them all the time. But you know it just sort of like maintain that a humble Spirit of just caring for other people and not just for myself and it sounds like it was I mean, maybe not the first experience but I just a really powerful experience in terms of feeling like a part of a group part of a community instead of being isolated. I think Community really does resonate with me and my career I really like to kind of get people talk and get people together and sore just hang out at this isn't even have to be like a formal meeting. It could just be like, hey, let's go to the arcade or hey, let's go out for pizza and you know still have a great time together when we know we'll take a picture and it'll be like a memory for us to preserve in her albums. And you know, I really I really do think Community is an important like part of my life cuz it really connects me know. What does a connect me.

18:36 Resources that are also in a sense connect me to people like, you know, it really allows me to really think that I'm part of something that's greater than I am. You know, it's not about myself. I don't have to survive in this world, but I can Thrive when I was when I'm with all the people and that's like something that really does.

18:55 I really does like play an integral part of my life.

19:00 What do you think?

19:03 You would say to a a student who seem to be?

19:08 Isolated and withdrawn and just sort of may be showing signs of

19:20 Having the same. I mean course not the same exact issues that you serious but just just somebody who seems withdrawn and you know having trouble with bullying even though you may not know that for sure but what would you how would you approach that student? And and what would you say? What do you think would help I think like coming from my own personal experience and I don't mean to impose my own personal experiences and other people cuz you know, all these people have their own individual struggles and stories but I think like the best thing that I would really want to do is just a little walk with that student really understand their pain, you know, I'll like kind of like listen first I think like that's the key thing is just to listen not necessarily like I mean, yeah, I'll negotiate psych-k. What's up what's been going on and I would like try to do a structure like questionnaire of Life. Are you thinking about doing this? Like are you being bullied but I'm not going to be direct like that. But rather I just want to be able to sort of connect with that student and let them know that you know,

20:20 There's another human being that you can talk with and you know just connect with and you know, that's like one step that I would probably really want to take instead of trying to be structured informal like, you know, being robotic kind of like running them through the therapy machine.

20:40 The approach that is taking a lot of times as more diagnostic than

20:47 Maybe that connection part is missing. I mean, what do you feel like was missing? What do you feel like would have helped you with that at that time in your life?

20:56 I think just want to mention earlier just being able to be walked with and being understood cuz as soon as like

21:04 Soon as I got expelled there a lot of like rumors being spread about what had been going on and you know, my name started popping up everywhere not just like in my school but also unlike a lot of mutual friends schools. So it actually actually made it tougher from my family to find another school get people to repeat their students in that school who had heard about what I had done and if they had heard that like I would be going to that school then you know, it would prove to be very hard for me. So I mean, I think there was some people at my new school who had heard about it, but you know those particular classmates in mind and judge me for what I had done cuz he came up the threats that you were making a sort of the Edwardsville sort of like in the freshman year like we're still in my freshman year for that particular part of the story and some people I mean some of my friends who did hear about it, like the people that I had my new friends from my new school they knew about what happened but since like a friendship was already like solidified and they already knew who I was I already knew my good traits.

22:04 They still kind of they still acknowledge that you know, I wasn't trying to let my pasta find me in a sense and I really appreciate those particular friends from that. That's cool to really I really appreciate them for not like trying to drive me back down to what I thought. I was. Can you go back to that time when you would make new friends at a new school? And he said they knew did they know about what happened at your previous school because you told them and what if so what how did you talk about that? Like, how did you describe that all Ashley?

22:44 The way that they knew was actually cuz we have mutual friends at my old school. So they would serve like here like some particular, you know, they wouldn't necessarily hear the full story with that. They would just like you're like some quick summaries of what had happened, but they wouldn't know who it was that did it and you know, I mean, I mean a couple of may have heard my name being dropped and so they kind of said hey Mark, they've been saying this stuff about you is true and you know, you know that that I would be like a prom for me to sort of like just kind of give a general like some read what I had done and back then like since you feeling okay. So yeah, he hears what's interesting cuz you know since since I was very recently for that particular. Like I wasn't very comfortable talking about it, but

23:32 You know as the years went by as I started like looking back on how those mistakes have affected me it sort of became more comfortable to sort of became more comfortable for me to talk about that cuz it's sort of like really demonstrated how those mistakes ironically sort of sort of defining like, you know, how I see myself how I sort of like assess myself in like dealing with other people and sort of like helping me to develop my own like

24:00 My own like socialcode in interacting with other people and that's just sort of and of course I still slightly feel uncomfortable talking about this, but you know, it's gotten better in recent years.

24:18 It sounds like it. I mean is it sounds like you use a lot of the same language when you talk about it in terms of mistakes. And in terms of the person that or the mistakes of the past, it seems like there's a lot like like you're judging yourself a little bit to do that. And sometimes I can be a little too much cuz cuz like I'll just like being a constant Loop of just like you no judging myself for being like, why did you do that? Why did you do that? And you know, it's just something that I continue to struggle with like when trying to figure out like, you know, what I want to be like what I want to whisper what what do I aspire to be and you know, it's just it's just an upward struggle for like, it's just a constant Alpert struggle for me to just dumb.

25:05 I really discuss where I come from discuss where I'm at right now and discuss where I'm going and you know, it's just been a really it's been it's been honestly a really rough Journey for me to just sort of like be where I'm at right now cuz you know, it's it takes awhile for me to connect the would-be school shooter with a future teacher candidate of today. So well exactly and I think that is something

25:38 But I mean, I don't know it just speaks of redemption in a way. It's because of you know being open to the possibility that people aren't one way or the other, you know, they aren't all good or all bad and I think when it comes to something like school shootings, I mean people I mean are just so fearful. I mean, I ain't no kids like I'm fearful about that all the time and you just want to let you know pinpoint someone to blame and it seems like a much bigger problem and also

26:19 I don't know. I just

26:22 It's

26:24 How is that been for you just said you think that because these police shootings happen all the time and have happened all the time before so how does that affect you when you hear about these things? And when you have heard about these considering your experience, like whenever I hear about like kids like shooting up schools and you know, it it really does trigger a lot of like memories of what I had done and what I could have done back then and you know, like where I'm at today like the person that I was the person that I am right now like whenever I hear the stories like deep down inside. I'm literally just screaming just to try to reach out to that one person who was committed that crime and also reaching out to the victims as well because you know, I just feel helpless whenever I like I see stuff like that happen and you know, I would and then just sort of like really in Kindles.

27:22 Further my my my goals of like wanting to be a teacher wanting to be that teacher that really is there for their students and really trying to prevent like what happened with me and you know, that's just something that I really want to take very seriously and just sort of wanting to make myself as an available resource and even if I can't, you know fulfill the needs that that student might have I can at least the rectum to some other resources that could be more effective cuz I really wholeheartedly believe that students who have the potential to be great at they do have the potential to be good people and I just haven't been really needs to be in Kindle rather than just constantly pointing out the negative aspects cuz that's constantly pointing of one's negative aspects, especially when they don't really know what to do with that's always had a lot of bad results coming from what I've seen in the news recently.

28:19 Yeah.

28:23 What do you mean do you think about that a lot as far as where you were?

28:28 Where you were at emotionally and and

28:34 Just in your head at the time when you were a freshman, do you think before there was any intervention or that for lack of a better word intervention, but before

28:48 You got expelled.

28:53 I don't know. I mean in that moment. Like do you have to do you think about like what what if that hadn't happened or what if if they hadn't but if they hadn't stopped you do you think you would have gone ahead with it? I mean I didn't have any weapons on my house. But I I mean I was just like just just angry the whole time and but it wasn't really necessarily about like what I was going to do but more like what people are going to be thinking from now on, but there was definitely I mean that I was definitely showing some signs cuz I actually did post some other things. I kind of talked about suicide and like depression and all that cuz I really wanted to reach out in a sense but there's I feel like they're sort of been a stigma associated with that cuz people some people when they do that sort of scene is like attention Grabbers and so it really caused me to really like kind of like real back.

29:53 In spite of what people like I think about me and is just sore. That's that that's just the thing that I kind of wish I had been was just like what's stronger intervention from my friends and my family and my and my teachers and I think like if they had caught that early on of the semester, I think all that stuff that happened in during that during freshman year. I feel like they could have all been avoided if the intervention had been a little bit, you know a stronger and more caring and that's just my perspective. I don't know what like those people would actually say about that. I just feel like if they had talked to me a little more often and they had actually set me aside earlier in the semester. Then I probably would have just completed. I probably would have just completed my freshman year with no obstacles whatsoever.

30:43 It's curious. I'm curious about just the concept of online bullying and what how little adults know about these things. And I mean even before the internet bullying doesn't necessarily go on in front of the teachers write it some

31:06 But people just don't know about that that happen and that affect their students so

31:13 Yeah, what do you think that?

31:18 What do you think can be done when?

31:22 When students don't necessarily tell the people that the adults that are responsible but I've had a lot of experience with cuz like, you know, I was very uncomfortable like, you know having family on my Facebook cuz it would be my new basically be seeing everything that I will be posting and like I guess it for my extended an immediate family in particular like they they they tended to make particular judgments about what I posted. So I started trusting them less often with like what I said with my interactions with other people and it was just something that I mean it was it was just an issue of just like little understanding of how the internet worked back then and like and that's also contributed to me feeling isolated from my family cuz just cuz I didn't like, you know, when we were on the internet like they didn't really understand what I was doing doing misconstrue some things and like, you know, they didn't seem like a reliable source for me to really kind of

32:22 Find comfort in or find likely sources for therapy cuz it didn't exactly know the nature of like what I was going through. And so I think I think like making on that.

32:35 I think I think parents and you know teachers really needs to be more considerate and more understanding of like, you know, how their students like use the internet how they use social media and not being as judgmental of like what they post on cuz you know things on the internet aren't what they seem and so like if they try to

32:56 If there's been like if there's just a surface understanding what a student post and they don't really understand the underlying like meaning behind it or like where the students coming from that it just creates an area of mistrust between like teacher students and families. And you know, I I think I think trust is like a really really really vital thing to consider when dealing with issues like this.

33:21 And when kids were bullying you that wasn't necessarily on the the surface that other people could see you right where they just with a messaging you or wasn't just messaging but it was also sort of like actual like pulling in the hallways in the cafeteria and it was just a lot of like me being taken advantage of people putting words into my mouth and sort of like cuz I was like really gullible back then so people like took advantage of that and so like it really cause me to feel very insecure about myself and you know, I I just felt like I was I felt like I was just being made a fool in front of everyone and it couldn't do anything to stop it. I know it's it's it's really tough to sort of look back on it and

34:08 You know, if I see that being done to a student that it just breaks my heart even more cuz I think people still haven't learned her lesson on how that affects people and how do you feel like you will approach that as a teacher?

34:21 We talked so far about how you might reach out to the students who are being bullied or who you suspect might be giving blood but what about the the students? Who are

34:34 You know being you know on the other side of that also the people who are actually bullying other I think.

34:43 I will if I see an instance of that then like, you know, I I I need to take up that responsibility as a teacher as a mentor and really pull them aside. And so, you know in a sentence like lettering them about like how that really affects people and talk to them how that affected me and just sort of seeing like, you know, you really need to you really need to stop doing that cuz you don't know what that person is going through and it's and it's off and that for me it's obvious that they don't really know what that Susan is going through and they're just constantly taking advantage of them and that's when my emotional by starts kicking in cuz like I really could cuz I'd really interesting that happened to another student him to talk to the bully themselves. Like it's sort of partially gets personal cuz I mean me being a victim of bullying that's like that's really causing me to snap quite a bit. Do you think that the people in the mall? I mean a lot of this isn't

35:38 This is a generalization. But I'm in a lot of times when people bully other people. It's because they have their own. Yeah, what is the phrase hurt people hurt people? So I guess that the ICU as I said earlier, that's one of my emotional bias cakes in their course. That's one thing. I have to consider just sort of stepping back and sort of like asking hey is everything alright, like what's been going on and just having a general and comfortable conversation that's not scripted and just sort of like seeing what that student might be going through as well. Cuz sometimes like, you know,

36:13 If you're coming from hurt, and then there's another person coming from hurting then, you know, when that collides like it doesn't really spell good things.

36:24 Seems like your

36:27 On a journey to

36:33 Specific career as a history teacher, but also it seems

36:39 It just seems like you.

36:42 You know have a larger Focus than just teaching history about do you want to talk about your hopes for for your career and for working with with you? Oh definitely just like I mean, you know, I love history love like talking about it. But at the same time it seems up a little bit more tension in my education courses cuz I really want to learn how I can better interact with you. How can better interact with students and serve like maintaining my presence as like as a leader in the classroom and you know, we just wanted to get involved not just like as a teacher just to earn the money but also getting heavily involved in the school community and sort of like seeing what I can do to help, you know, make the community better than when I first like entered it and that's just something that I really want to make a core pillar of my career when I you know when I get my license

37:36 So

37:39 We have a couple minutes left. Is there anything else that you?

37:45 Well, I guess one of the questions.

37:49 That we talked about earlier was what are the most important lessons you learned so far in your life. I guess I'll just like name a few. I mean given that we're kind of a little low on time but I think one lesson that I really thought I mean I I probably said it earlier but it's just like don't let you yesterday. Don't let your yesterday to find you cuz you know, everyone's meant to be better than they were yesterday. Everyone is meant to be better than the person that they were yesterday. And you know, what do you have that mentality in your mind only then you'll slowly start to build yourself up into the person that you're meant to be and

38:29 No, I mean I I see my life as a constant process of building. Sometimes you might have to chip away some some things but you know in the end like everyone's going to be sculpted into this beautiful work of art that can Inspire other people to sort of Innocence make themselves into works of art and that's just something that I want to Echo as a teacher for my students. So that's really the big lesson that I learned.

38:56 Leslie and what would you say to the people who?

39:04 But the time to talk with you when you were in high school and the teachers and the counselors who didn't judge you and listen to you.

39:15 I think it's just really four words. I want to say is just like thank you for everything.

39:23 I've been good talking to you. I appreciate it best. I appreciate it.