Chris Wellman and Nancy [No Name Given]

[00:00] CHRIS WELLMAN: My name is Chris Wellman. My age is 46. Today's date is November 29, 2022. Location is Leland, North Carolina. The name of my conversation partner is Nancy, and I know her just through the one small step program.

[00:17] NANCY: Okay, Nancy. My name is Nancy. I am 63. Today's date is November 29, 2022. I am on Oak Island, North Carolina, and I am just meeting Chris, my conversation partner, for the first time. Okay, so, Chris, can you go ahead and ask Nancy this first question? And then once you're done, then, Nancy, you're going to ask Chris this.

[00:46] CHRIS WELLMAN: Nancy, what made you want to do this interview today?

[00:49] NANCY: That's an interesting question. I wasn't really sure about it. Thank you, Rachel. Rachel happens to live down the street from my daughter, and they were having a difficult time finding people that they think I'm like. So they asked me if I would participate, and I agreed, and I'm not sure if I am who they think I am. Okay, Nancy, go ahead and ask Chris. Chris, what made you want to do this interview today?

[01:26] CHRIS WELLMAN: I think for me, just in the past, maybe five or ten years, seeing all the division that we have in our country, especially, I thought this sounded like a good way to. I mean, as I like the name, one small step, just kind of talk to someone who's different from you and try to see things from their perspective and have some empathy and maybe start to grow a little closer together as a country.

[01:53] NANCY: Okay. It's nice. Do you guys have any other questions before we move on or.

[02:00] CHRIS WELLMAN: I don't think so. Okay, that's interesting. You guys know each other? I didn't know that.

[02:04] NANCY: Yes. Yeah.

[02:05] CHRIS WELLMAN: You both in Oak island?

[02:07] NANCY: No. I'm the lucky one. Hold on 1 second. Okay, so for this next exercise, what we'll do is you're going to read each other's bios, and then you're going to ask any questions about it. So, Chris, you're going to read Nancy's bio, and then you're going to ask her any questions that she, you know, about what she wrote.

[02:34] CHRIS WELLMAN: Okay. I was raised in a middle class suburban family with both parents. My father's job required frequent moves every year or two. My father died suddenly when he was 47 years old. I was 16. My older brother was away at college, and I was at home with my bereft 46 year old mother. I studied economics in college. That is where I learned about the effects of government policies on citizens livelihoods. I gave up my career to raise three children. My husband of 27 years cheated on me. I am now so happily remarried. Yeah. A couple of things that stood out in that to me. One, I was curious about the studies in economics and the effects of government policies on citizens livelihoods. I'd love to hear more about that, if you could share more.

[03:21] NANCY: Love to. Seems like ages ago that I studied it, but I actually went to a very conservative christian college in northwestern Pennsylvania, which is where I studied economics. And I really believed in free market economics and found that if you do a lot of studies, you'll see that when government puts regulations and things into play, it alters people's behaviors. And I just think that government should try to monitor, but not absolutely control people. They should be, you know, red tape type stuff. They shouldn't put impediments in the way of people trying to create business or jobs or, you know, anything that the market generally works things out. And that's kind of what I grew up learning, and that's what I think.

[04:38] CHRIS WELLMAN: Yeah. And was your career, you said you gave up your career to raise your children. Was that career in economics or something else?

[04:46] NANCY: Actually, no, it was interesting. I studied economics, and so I have a degree in economics and business administration. When I graduated from college, it was kind of the world's worst job market. And so I did find a job, and this is when the interest rates were 14 15%. And so I was able to get a job, actually in production planning, which I loved. And then I went into marketing with a major fragrance company that was based in New York City. But I worked outside of the city for most of that time. And then I had my first child, and I couldn't afford to stay home or have the baby and continue with my career, which was going to be back into New York City. So we moved.

[05:43] CHRIS WELLMAN: Yeah.

[05:46] NANCY: So I was marketing and so forth.

[05:49] CHRIS WELLMAN: Are you, are you heading back to that career? I guess your kids are probably older at this point.

[05:54] NANCY: My kids are all in their thirties, and when I stayed home, two of them had chronic illnesses, so I really couldn't. Somebody had to stay home to take them to their doctor appointments and things. I couldn't have stayed home. My ex husband stayed, stayed home, or he got the career, and I stayed home and raised kids. And then I volunteered for. Because you can't just stay home with kids. Your mind will go crazy. You know, I did volunteer activities where, like, I ran a reading program in the public housing community near us for kids to read to volunteers. And actually, my kids would go to volunteer with me when they were elementary and middle school, did meals on wheels in one of the low economic socioeconomic areas of Durham. I was one of the founding members of the Durham Youth Orchestra, which is now defunct. But that was a nonprofit. That was. It gave orchestral experiences to all the children, whether they had the resources to. Like, if you want to join a youth symphony orchestra and get that kind of instruction, it costs a lot of money, and not everybody has that money. So that's what we did. And I did PTA, all that. All that stuff. And then I said no. Yeah, so I've tried to go back. I did try to go back to work. And when I did, I went and got my paralegal certification at Duke, passed the state bar for that. But at the time, there were so many law students, I was going to get hired for $10 an hour. And that didn't really fit well. So I waited tables at a fine dining restaurant, and then I went to work for Duke for a while, but. And then, you know, I'm married to the most wonderful man, and he had a full career. And anything I made when I was at Duke with 40% went to taxes. It was just kind of silly. I wasn't making very much, and it was. What was the point? That's when I retired, sort of.

[08:24] CHRIS WELLMAN: So you're still doing some volunteer stuff in the area?

[08:29] NANCY: Well, my mother's 93, and she lives on her own in Durham, and we're trying to get her to move down to this area. I have a son that moved to this area, and she's kind of stubborn and wants to live on her own. I think she's almost there. She did quit driving, but we do a lot going back and forth to Durham to take her to appointments and stuff. And I've got a lot to do on Oak island because we. The beach is eroding. There's a lot of political, you know, call for help. We need sand.

[09:07] CHRIS WELLMAN: Yeah, it's kind of my. I have some friends that live down there, too, so.

[09:12] NANCY: Oh, yeah. Okay, Chris, are you good? Or do you want to ask Nancy anything more or.

[09:23] CHRIS WELLMAN: Yeah, I think I'm good for now.

[09:25] NANCY: Okay, good. Okay. So, Nancy, I'm gonna send Chris's. So why don't you go ahead and read his bio and then ask him any questions about that? Okay. I grew up in a conservative christian church and family and still have the orthodox faith that is based on, but now focus more directly on the life and teachings of Jesus. Interestingly, this has made me seem very liberal to my conservative friends and family, maybe due to my focus on nonviolence and an interest in erring on the side of loving all people above all else. In my field of architecture, I see myself as an artist striving to help people connect better to God, nature and each other. That is very nice. You must be a very nice person.

[10:18] CHRIS WELLMAN: Well when I read that I thought, I need to copy this because that's probably the best summary I've read of myself. I don't know how Rachel got that out of my rambling telephone conversation going on my profile.

[10:32] NANCY: So I do have a question. You grew up in a conservative christian church and family and your, is your family still following that and you're kind of diverted a little bit more?

[10:47] CHRIS WELLMAN: Yeah, I'd say most of my, most of my immediate and even extended family are much more on the conservative side than I am. I mean they're all, it's all pretty much everybody's on the, in some kind of christian church. And we've had that background for generations. And I guess the conservative part has been there for generations as well. There's a few, a few other, like I have a few aunts and uncles that are, that are more in the line than I am now, I guess, politically. But the christian part is still the same and we have that common ground that we have diverted a bit on other things.

[11:28] NANCY: Well I don't, I'm kind of trying to figure out when you say Christ a conservative, are you thinking like nobody can dance or drink or like where.

[11:39] CHRIS WELLMAN: Moomoos we dance, we dance a lot? No, I was thinking just more on the conservative ends. Like you could probably just say republican. Like it's more of a republican christian background. And I'm probably more on a democratic side at this point or at least as far as voting. In the last five or ten years it's been more on the democratic side which has been, you know, in contrast to probably 90% of my family.

[12:09] NANCY: Are you, are you originally from the south?

[12:14] CHRIS WELLMAN: Yes, I was born in north Carolina. Both, both sides of my family are, were raised in North Carolina. My dad joined the Navy right out of college and they stationed him in DC and so we moved, you know, when I was a baby we moved to northern Virginia. I mean I guess that's technically the south, but culturally it's a bit different than down here for sure. Yeah, but yeah, that was, that was where I grew up and we were always making trips down to, you know, visit family several times a year to North Carolina. So always had that kind of touchstone in both states.

[12:51] NANCY: Interesting. So it's interesting. I am christian but I don't belong to any organized church and I will say that my faith has brought me through a lot of very difficult times. And a lot of difficult times kind of brings you closer to your faith. But I've always been kind of worried about the classical church. Seemed to have turned into business, big business, and that's kind of why I stay away from organized churches.

[13:36] CHRIS WELLMAN: Well, everything you just said is exactly the same for me.

[13:40] NANCY: Yeah.

[13:43] CHRIS WELLMAN: Different reasons. But it sounds. Sounds very similar.

[13:47] NANCY: Right. And I. I like to dance and drink, too, but I'm not very good at dancing.

[13:59] CHRIS WELLMAN: Also. Same here. Dancing and drinking. I'm better at dancing if I'm drinking.

[14:09] NANCY: Does your family, do they get, like, think you're a black sheep or something?

[14:20] CHRIS WELLMAN: I'm sure they do. I haven't noticed. I mean, they haven't changed any way that they relate to me. I mean, they, you know, it's all. I mean, I visit them a couple times a year, and they're mostly still in Virginia. I have a sister and a brother. Both their families are in Virginia, where my parents are. I visit them a couple times a year, and I'm always in contact with at least my mom on a weekly basis. And I haven't noticed any change in the way they relate to me over the years. I mean, I definitely started out, like, when I was in college, I was totally in line with the politics of the whole family. And then just over the years after that kind of changed a bit. And I haven't noticed anything different. I mean, they still seem to love and care for me just as they did always, so I've appreciated that.

[15:13] NANCY: That's good. Good mom.

[15:17] CHRIS WELLMAN: Moms don't care what you think. They just. They love you anyway. Aw. I did notice when you said something about public housing and your volunteering efforts. I mean, that that's something like in. As an architect, I've been really involved in affordable housing and doing tiny home communities, that sort of thing. We have a pro bono program at my practice.

[15:41] NANCY: Nice.

[15:41] CHRIS WELLMAN: So that really resonated with me. And I think, I mean, just to go back to the whole, I guess, the whole purpose of this interview, it's like we can probably find common ground and do really good things regardless of what we think, religion or politics. I was thinking that if we can come to terms with saying we're going to help people and we're going to do some good things, we're going to volunteer. People need things, and there are needy people in our local community, and we can get together and do good things. We don't even have to talk about religion and politics today for that kind of thing.

[16:22] NANCY: I've kind of felt like personal responsibility for other people has been subverted by the government always jumping in to, oh, I'm going to solve this problem. And used to be more of a community affair to take care of people that needed stuff. And I feel like maybe a lot of people have lost that sense of, oh, well, I'm not going to do it because the government's going to do it. And that's, I think it's a shame. You know, I took my kids doing meals on wheels where we did it. I mean, these, these poor old people had been raised in these homes and they were surrounded by criminal activity. They couldn't really even leave their homes. And the homes were just deteriorating. But they just delighted when I would bring my little kids in and give them hugs. And it was just was the food smelled terrible, but the, there was the company and, you know, and especially when I could, the kids were off school, I'd take them and I wanted them to have that experience because Durham is definitely a town that has very well educated and wealthy people, and it has uneducated, poor people. I like that it's mixed racially. I thought that was, didn't grow up with that. You know, my parents in the north, everything was very segregated, so I felt like that was a good place. But I wanted them to volunteer and do help people. And I think they've, I don't know, nobody volunteers as much as I did. But I stayed home, you know, there. Everybody's got full, full careers.

[18:11] CHRIS WELLMAN: Yeah.

[18:14] NANCY: You guys want to move on to the next one? Okay.

[18:17] CHRIS WELLMAN: Sure.

[18:18] NANCY: Okay. Unless you have other question about the bias, this kind of goes hand in hand with this. Yeah. Chris, why don't you. It's. Right. It's your turn, right to ask? I believe so, yeah. Nancy, this. Yeah.

[18:34] CHRIS WELLMAN: Who has been the most influential person in your life? What did they teach you?

[18:40] NANCY: A lot of people have been influential. I would say that one of them was my grandmother, who was born in 1905. Her parents were separated. I suppose she had chronic ear infections. She was in Cincinnati, and she had chronic ear infections and ended up becoming deaf from either whatever they treated her with or didn't treat her with. But that was not a wealthy family. But she went on. She used to play piano in the silent movies. And I thought that was awesome. And I always wanted to play piano. And, yeah, it was really cool growing up, and she. I wanted to play the piano so much. My mother got a piano for me and I was an abject failure. I have no musical talents at all. And so anyway, my grandmother married when she was 17 and had two children and she was deaf, they had, and her, my grandfather was a gambler, alcoholic. Not the best. He was handsome, that's about it. And I guess when my mother was twelve, my grandmother kicked him out, said, that's it, which I thought was very, very courageous. She had a hearing aid that was rudimentary, like a big box would hang at her waist on the belt, and nothing like today's technology. She had a 14 year old son and a twelve year old daughter. And there were no food stamps, there was no welfare, there was nothing. She, they all pulled together and they didn't live in the bad, you know, like some shanty or anything. They were in a nice suburb of Cincinnati and they made it work. And she always just had her faith that pulled her through. And I thought that was, that's really, she used to say, worry is an insult to goddess. And then if lost something, she said, nothing is lost in God's kingdom. And I say these things to myself and others around me frequently when it's time. So I would say she was very influential and she was also very, very positive. She was fun and loving. You know, she, she was a very good person. And my granddaughter is named after her. I.

[21:23] CHRIS WELLMAN: Nice. Well, you said you were an abject failure at music, but you found a way into that youth orchestra.

[21:31] NANCY: I know I can, I can lead. I can lead and mark it, but I sure as heck can't play. And I certainly admire everyone that can play. My daughter was the violinist, my son's a guitarist and the other one was a drummer, so, yep, it's a few.

[21:46] CHRIS WELLMAN: Generations kind of did that with me, too. My dad and my, his brother, his, both of his sisters all played professional instrument, professional music. And I got out of it as soon as I could when I was twelve.

[22:01] NANCY: Were tough, weren't they?

[22:03] CHRIS WELLMAN: Oh, recitals. I couldn't do it. Stage fright.

[22:09] NANCY: Me either. I still have my grandmother's piano in the living room.

[22:16] CHRIS WELLMAN: Must be a pretty piece of furniture. I would, I would think so.

[22:20] NANCY: It's, it's an upright, but it's ebony black. It's, it's nice. It's just nobody plays it. I'm gonna have to do something there.

[22:30] CHRIS WELLMAN: I found I could play on my own, but I couldn't play when people were watching. So you might be able to do that. I just played for myself.

[22:38] NANCY: My brother noticed that one time. He said, I only played when I was Madden, and I'd go in and I didn't think anybody was listening.

[22:46] CHRIS WELLMAN: Pound on it.

[22:47] NANCY: Yes. That's funny. Okay. I would say one other influential person I had, of course, was my mother. And she, after my father died, she never really was the same, but she always had the ability to take care of herself financially, you know, work. And that was one thing I was never going to do, was not be able to support myself. So it was kind of interesting. Then I kind of ended up in that position years later, but. Okay, Nancy, you want to ask Chris that question? All right. Chris, who has been the most influential person in your life, and what did they teach you?

[23:47] CHRIS WELLMAN: Yeah, this is. This is hard for me to answer. I mean, like you said, there's been a lot of people, but I think my mind tends to go towards. I mean, like in my bio, Jesus. I mean, that was. That was that he's been a profound influence just in, especially the last 20 years or so, and just thinking about how to go through life and how to live and how to treat other people, love other people. And then as an extension of that, I was really into the speeches of Martin Luther King Junior a while back, and I still kind of look back to his life and everything he stood for and went for, despite having death threats all the time. I mean, I just look at the courage of that and seeing what. Seeing an issue in society and saying, I'm going to do something about it, and a lot of people are going to hate me for it, but I'm going to do it anyway. And that's kind of the same thing in Jesus life. He was killed in the same kind of. For the same reason for seeing this issue and speaking up about it, doing something about it, and then having the repercussions of that, and yet having the courage to just push through and doing it anyway. And I guess, I mean, my life is definitely not nearly as dramatic as those two, but I'm still trying to look for those things, the kind of injustices in society, and see what I can do with the skills I have and the people around me to do something about that and knowing that there's going to be some pushback here and there. Hopefully, there won't be a whole lot in my case, because we're usually just trying to do things that everybody kind of agrees is something good. It's still something that it takes a good bit of courage to sort of push through. So I would say those two, for me, are the biggest influences.

[25:38] NANCY: Interesting. Okay. Okay, so this is the next one. Okay, Chris, go ahead and ask Nancy this question.

[25:58] CHRIS WELLMAN: Could you briefly describe in your own words your personal political values?

[26:05] NANCY: I believe in free market economics. I believe everybody should have equal opportunities. I don't believe that everybody is equal because everybody is not the same. Everybody has different strengths and skills and everybody has different areas. Like, you know, you're not good at everything. Nobody is the same as everybody else. And that's the beauty of the world is everybody's different and everybody has something to contribute, but everybody doesn't have the same thing to contribute. I think politics has become so corrupt in, in Washington, DC. I think there are so many people working that are not even elected. They're career government people. And it concerns me that there's no, seems to be just as an abject a lack of integrity. And it's more about how much everybody's going to make for themselves and their family and their friends and stay in power. I don't understand why anybody would want to be elected in anything really, because you're just going to be have slings and arrows thrown it shot at you. It must just be an ego thing for so many people versus altruistic to want to actually improve things. But I do think that government should create an even safe playing field, so to speak, provide even education. I don't think that politics belongs in schools. I don't know. I just think everything should be above board and with integrity. And I don't know that there's enough checks and balances within our system. Any comments on that, Chris, or.

[28:43] CHRIS WELLMAN: I don't think so. I mean, I could probably, I could probably answer it for myself and.

[28:49] NANCY: Yeah.

[28:50] CHRIS WELLMAN: Discuss some of those things, I guess. Personal political values. Yeah, I tend to look at it like I've actually voted on both sides of the divide, republican and democratic. And when I look at those choices, I tend, it seems like I've looked at it from the point of view of what are these people doing, not what they're saying, but what are they going to do in office? How is it going to help everybody in that community or in the country depending on the election? So I think I look at it as, I don't really even consider myself a Republican or a Democrat. I'm kind of depending on the politician, depending on the leader. I tend to go with whichever one seems to be, I guess, closest to my values as far as a Christian, closest to what I see Jesus wanting us to be like and treat how he wants us to treat others. See, I don't know if I, my political values I don't think are different from my personal or religious values in that sense.

[30:10] NANCY: Any questions about that, Nancy, or anything you want to say? I'm just wondering. Yeah. You vote for, you support whoever you think is most likely to do something good for everybody, which I think that's. I think that's what you're supposed to do, but I'm not sure it is. It's become a very divided country, and I don't think people generally are nasty. But I've seen so much nastiness that it's just discouraging. And I think the best way we can do. Thing we can do is, you know, somebody should lead by example. Nothing this to provide an example of how you should live instead.

[31:22] CHRIS WELLMAN: Yeah.

[31:28] NANCY: Okay. You guys want to try another one?

[31:30] CHRIS WELLMAN: Sure.

[31:32] NANCY: Okay. Go ahead, Chris, and ask Nancy this.

[31:36] CHRIS WELLMAN: Do you ever feel misunderstood by people with different beliefs than you? That is, by people from the other side of the aisle? How so?

[31:46] NANCY: I'm not sure which side of the aisle I'm on. Economically, I am conservative. I would say socially, social things. I wouldn't say I'm terribly conservative. You know, just example down here. This is about a month or so ago with Ian, the hurricane came through. So we had big erosion on the beach. And we're on the beach and we went out, you know, our neighbors. It's like a cliff, six foot to get down to the beach because the dune eroded. So I see this couple with three kids hanging out. Kids are playing in the beach, on the beach. They had the guy standing there with no shirt, jeans and boots, and he had a handgun and his waistband pointing down, right down, right down the middle. And he had a tattoo of the confederate flag all across the top of his back. Now, I would say people might look at him and think that he's conservative. And I would say, no, he's not. I would say he's a mess, a hot mess. And he's trespassing on our neighbors, what was their dune. And he's tearing down what's left, protecting their house. And he's a pulling the kids up. And I just said, I said, excuse me. I said, you can't put the kids. Kids can't be on the dune. It's against the law. And he gave me, you wouldn't believe, started screaming, had his arms and legs out and pointed to his back. He said, you had a problem with this, don't you? And she moaned, me and Scott. Oh, my gosh. No kidding. And Scott didn't realize he had a gun. So he's like, a few of you asshole. He was like, they were trespassing and I just said no. And I didn't, wasn't mean to him. But then he went, you told him.

[34:00] CHRIS WELLMAN: To sign up for one small step.

[34:02] NANCY: Oh, right. That's a perfect candidate. So his aunt and uncle purchased the house a couple doors down across the street, and he seemed to think that they have free access to cut through. And I was like, are you, oh, my God, Scott. Anyway, so that's the kind of people, I think maybe when you say, I say I'm conservative, I don't see that as being on my side of the aisle. And I'm sure it's not on your side of the aisle either. I'd say that's the road to hell. Just, yeah, it's terrible. But I think people probably think I'm conservative and my economic stance, which means the government should kind of get out of the way and let people be free to be successful and socially, you know, I'm kind of not real conservative. Nancy, why won't you go ahead and ask Chris that? All right. Chris, do you ever feel misunderstood by people with different beliefs than you? Example, by people from the other side of the aisle? How so?

[35:20] CHRIS WELLMAN: Yes, I guess the first place is family. Just, well, family. And I guess other people of the christian faith, when we talk, I mean, there seems to be a, there's an assumption among a lot of christians that if you, if you identify as a christian and these are the other beliefs that you have and this is how you vote, etcetera. But in my case, it's usually different. And they're usually surprised that I hold some of the ideas that I have, and they're even more surprised when I say the reason I have that idea is because of this part of the Bible or because of this thing that Jesus did or said. And so it's, it can be hard to talk to other people that share my same faith because a lot of them, especially in my own family, people that I'm closest to, as soon as you get away from the directness of the Bible or of Jesus, then all of a sudden our ideas are totally different. Our ideas about government or politics and everything else are just completely different. So that in that way, I think I feel misunderstood just because, you know, I have, I'll say I'm christian and then, and I am, and then they'll say, well, then why don't you think these other things that I do because I'm a Christian. So that, that part takes, takes a lot of bridge building for me in my life. But, you know, we get along fine most places, but I feel misunderstood on that. On that level.

[36:59] NANCY: You say, like, the christians all vote republican. I gonna tell you, Mike.

[37:08] CHRIS WELLMAN: Oh, no, no, I'm not saying that.

[37:10] NANCY: Okay. Because as I say, my in laws, man, they are at church every time the doors are open for something, and they, they are not ever voting Republican. They're staunch Democrats. So that's where I'm like, okay, I don't know that Christianity equates with Republican or Democrat.

[37:33] CHRIS WELLMAN: Oh, yeah, that's exactly my point. It just, in my family it does, except for me and maybe two or three others. But, you know, it's. It's just the majority in my family. So do you think.

[37:46] NANCY: Do you think that, you know, like, kind of, if you grow up learning, you know, like, it just perpetuates because, like, if you grow up voting families all voting Republican, and then the next, you know, like, nobody ever really questions it. It's what you're taught within your family that this is how it is and that maybe you've gone outside and done other exploration and found things that you don't really think fit. But, like, a lot of it stems from initially, people kind of turn out to be how they're raised or kind of what their experience is.

[38:35] CHRIS WELLMAN: Yeah, I mean, that was exactly the case with me. I was. I just kind of fell in line with the thoughts and the politics and the religion of how was how I grew up and the family I grew up in. And then later on, I would say it was more going in rather than going out because I went into the Bible more. I'd say I've read the Bible more than anybody else in my family at this point. I think I've read the whole thing cover to cover, four times, four different translations.

[39:02] NANCY: Wow.

[39:03] CHRIS WELLMAN: The more I read it, the more I see these differences between kind of the way I was raised. I mean, the core is still the same, and the core is, you know, the faith, Jesus, God, all, the core is the same, but everything else, kind of the further away you get from that and you start getting more into politics, I see a lot of distinction and difference. So I would say for me, it was going deeper into my own faith that I was raised with and exploring that more, that actually, ironically, made me more different from the same people that I was raised with.

[39:38] NANCY: Interesting. Chris, do you have a favorite book or section or disciple?

[39:47] CHRIS WELLMAN: Hmm. I don't know if disciple. I do. I do love reading the gospels, just the four gospels and the story of Jesus is just incredible to me. And I finished one gospel, and I'm excited that there's three more, because I want to hear this story again. And then probably everybody says the psalms, but I do really love getting into the psalms. I mean, some of those are just full of anguish and then full of hope and gorgeous writing. I did want to come back to something that Nancy said in her bio about her marriage failing earlier, because I had the same experience, like, 20 years ago now. It was a long time ago. It was a shorter relationship. I got it out of the way early.

[40:33] NANCY: I should.

[40:34] CHRIS WELLMAN: Yeah. But when I was going through that, I dove into the Bible and I found myself in the psalms, and it was like David was just telling me everything that I was going through and saying that he was going through the same thing. So it was incredible. It was kind of a miraculous thing to just be reading almost my own thoughts and my own feelings in this book from thousands of years ago.

[40:57] NANCY: That is. That is. I'll tell you, um, I didn't put in my bio was that when I was in my early thirties, I had late stage Lyme disease. And, um, we lived in Cincinnati at the time, and every doctor said, well, we don't have Lyme disease in Ohio. Can't be that. They sent me to chief of psychiatry at the hospital. Thought it was. I was just like, crazy. But in the meantime, my hair's falling out. My short term memory was going away. I was crippled with arthritis. I had three little kids. This started when I. The youngest was 18 months, and the other one was 18 months older, Nim, and then Kate. But it was. That's. I didn't know what I was going to do. I thought if I had a gun, I would shot myself because of the pain of. And nobody knew what it was. And it was. I went to my brother in law in New Jersey, set me up with a head of infectious disease at his hospital, and it was late stage line, but by then, ten months into it, it took a lot, like, iv antibiotics for six weeks and years to recover. But I was in the middle of this, and, yeah, I was. I only remember what psalm it was, but I was looking through the Bible and I would just find one that just gave me so much strength in that time. And I was, you know, cured. It took years, but it's something you'll never, ever forget. And it also gives you an insight into people that are ill and there is no cure and how they feel and how much strength it takes for them to go on. And even in the case of my mother, that's 93, sometimes I get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom. I think, man, that must be really hard when you're 93 to get up and do all these things. It gives you a little glimpse into what it's like to get old or to be sick. But the same thing is I did find strength in. I would just happen to open up to a place, and it just resonated. I've never read the full Bible. I don't think I can even read a book of it fully.

[43:28] CHRIS WELLMAN: Some are not exciting.

[43:30] NANCY: Well, there's a lot of begadding going on, and that just messes with me.

[43:34] CHRIS WELLMAN: In the middle of Leviticus, you just feel like you want to give up, but loud through.

[43:41] NANCY: Okay, we have about six minutes left, so. Oh, gosh, that is not what I tried to copy. So let's do. Let's do this as our closing question. Go ahead, Chris. You want to ask Nancy this?

[44:06] CHRIS WELLMAN: How can we come together after a pandemic and recent divisive elections?

[44:10] NANCY: Recent? Yep. Oh, I think people need to stop getting so bent out of shape. You know, sometimes you just gotta let it roll over. Don't it just. Everybody's so wound up tight, and I don't. I think a lot of it, the reporting on Covid, I think, became extreme. It was like I was scaring everybody, and. And I just think people need to chill out and stop being so thin skinned. I mean, for goodness sake, it's. You need to take care of each other. And I think we probably learned a lot of with that, but you can't. I don't know. It's just not healthy. It's not healthy for society to be full of anger. And I think, you know, I live in Durham, and I I don't live in Durham anymore, but I still have that house up there till I get rid of all the kids junk that's still in it. But I, um. I go into Durham, and it's like everybody's a different race and a socio economic background. Everybody's so nice and high and who cares? But when you look at the news, it's like everybody's mean and hateful. So I don't get it. I don't know how we come together. I just think. Just chill out. Chill out. Okay. Yeah. Nancy, why don't you ask Chris that? Oh, I do want to add one other thing. Oh, go ahead. People need to set their egos aside, because that is really the biggest thing. I think everybody is all about themselves and ego. You know, everybody gets a trophy, everybody gets to win. It's like everybody's just got to think about everybody else. So. Okay, chris, question. How can we come together after a pandemic and recent divisive elections?

[46:29] CHRIS WELLMAN: I think something you mentioned there about helping people is what I, what I try to focus on. And like I said earlier, I think if we, we could probably, no matter what our religion or politics are, we can probably agree that there are needs in our local community and people need help, and we can come together and work together and do some good in that way. Like, I mean, I'm working on a tiny home community here in wilmington now, and, I mean, you, I wouldn't think you'd be able to find a single person that would say that's not a good idea, because we're, we're putting homeless people who are chronically homeless and disabled into housing. And so we've had churches come together. We've had lots of different groups donate to the project. So it's, I mean, you see people from both aisles, you see people from all different religious backgrounds saying, this is a good thing to do. And there are probably tons of those. I mean, you volunteered, Nancy. So, you know, I mean, your heart, I think, is in the same place as this, that we can, we can come together on just this basic thing of helping people and caring about people, and we can work together on that. So I think that that's, that's where I focus.

[47:41] NANCY: Yeah. It's personal initiatives that people are going to be invested in something that they're personally putting something into, and it will. Yeah. Bring a lot of different people together. Okay. Let's see.

[48:06] CHRIS WELLMAN: Get rid of ego. I agree.

[48:09] NANCY: Oh, I know. It's pervasive, isn't it? We have about a minute left. Any other lasting thoughts or anything else you'd like to share with one another? I'm impressed with you, Chris. I think you're just a, a great person and just, you know, you're very giving, and it's a blessing for everybody that I would think you interact with.

[48:41] CHRIS WELLMAN: Well, I'd say the same thing about you. I've been encouraged by hearing how you volunteer and how you care about people and how you care about the community there, where you are, and in particular the environment and the beach. I think all that's good stuff that we can, we can agree on.

[48:57] NANCY: Actually, the mayor's coming to visit on the 11th. I haven't, like, they asked me if I wanted to run. I'm like, no. I would be in tears if anybody yelled at me.

[49:11] CHRIS WELLMAN: You want to stay out of politics, then?

[49:14] NANCY: No, no, no. Thank you. I'm sorry. My technology failed. This is my second computer to try it on. We did it. I was determined we were going to make it work. It's a lot of planning. I mean, you know, trying to fit two people together that you think would have a good conversation, and then coming up with the scheduling, dates, and, you know, so it's a big process, and it's a pain, but I love the conversation when it happens. It's really beautiful. That was interesting. Very interesting. And I'm glad I participated. Yay. Good. Yeah. Nancy was, you know, worried. A lot of people are worried, you know, they don't know who they're gonna meet or what they're gonna say, so. Well, I just kind of felt like there is so much pent up anger that I really don't need to be put. Put in front of it, and that's. That was my concern. You definitely didn't. Didn't scare me.

[50:22] CHRIS WELLMAN: Try not to be too scary.

[50:26] NANCY: I'll be looking for the tiny house project on the news. I know. I was thinking, Chris. Wow, really cool.

[50:33] CHRIS WELLMAN: Well, it's Eden village. You probably.

[50:35] NANCY: Oh, yeah, Eden village, Rachel, you probably.

[50:37] CHRIS WELLMAN: Heard of that one.

[50:38] NANCY: Yes.

[50:40] CHRIS WELLMAN: I think we're doing the community center. Someone else is providing all the houses. I think they're doing 3100, 400 square foot houses in this total, totally walkable community. And then there's a community center that's part of that, and that's the one that I'm working on.

[50:56] NANCY: Wow.

[50:58] CHRIS WELLMAN: It should be good. They'll be putting people in those houses early next year, I think.

[51:02] NANCY: Do they provide mental health care?

[51:06] CHRIS WELLMAN: Yeah. The community center has someone that's staffed there, and they have a clinic and a community center. They have a kitchen. They'll serve meals and a laundry, a 24 hours laundry for the people in the community. So they've already done a few of these in other parts of the country, so they know kind of how it works and how to put it together.

[51:24] NANCY: Is Katrina involved in this, too, Chris?

[51:27] CHRIS WELLMAN: Katrina.

[51:28] NANCY: Katrina?

[51:29] CHRIS WELLMAN: I don't think. I know.

[51:30] NANCY: Night. No. Okay.

[51:31] CHRIS WELLMAN: I don't know the name.

[51:32] NANCY: Okay. So, yeah. Mental health is also another issue that I've spearheaded for children's mental health, and they ignore it. The public schools, I was like, I know. They had my picture on a dartboard downtown. I hammered them. These children are coming in, and they're not belligerent. They're nothing. Purposely not doing their homework or whatever. A lot of these children are serious, have serious mental depression or mental health issues. Maybe their home circumstances trigger it. A lot of the people just didn't. They just treated the kids like they were bad and. Yeah, so I ended up doing it. Working with a mental health initiative in Durham called Becoming and went to naming mental health conference in DC with them and did just promoting the fact that these children need help. You can't just say, that's not happening. I'd be like me not having Lyme disease because I was in Ohio. So that finally has come out. And Durham has made great strides within the schools to provide services for kids and not, not treat them like, but, man, slay dragons. I got old. I'm tired. Yeah, take a break.

[53:03] CHRIS WELLMAN: You should look into Eden. They are focusing on mental health. I mean, the two qualifications for getting a house in that community is you have to be chronically homeless for at least a year and have some kind of disability, and that disability includes mental disabilities.

[53:18] NANCY: Right.

[53:19] CHRIS WELLMAN: So they're. And they've identified, I think, 100 people in Wilmington that meet those requirements. So they're only, they're only able to house, you know, about a third of that number. So they're already looking at doing more of these.

[53:32] NANCY: How do you document that you've been in Wilmington and homeless for a year?

[53:36] CHRIS WELLMAN: As they look at, they talk to the local police officers, they talk to social services, they have a, they have a process. I'm not very intimately involved with that, but I have seen that they, they do their background checks and they look at all the people that deal with those people on a daily basis so that they can identify exactly the ones that will come into there.

[54:01] NANCY: I did cut the recording. So you guys job service training or something?

[54:09] CHRIS WELLMAN: Um, I believe so. That, that's something I'd have to look into. I don't know how. As far as after the, after the people are living in that, in the community, like what, how they, how they operate. But they do have someone that's there all the time, that has an office in the community center, and, you know, they're, they keep track of them and, and help them out however they can. It seems to be a really good thing. But yeah, there, there are volunteer opportunities with that as well. So I would, I would look into it and see if you want to get involved or look into it more.

[54:41] NANCY: Off to look it up to see. And that's pretty big hike for me. Yeah.

[54:48] CHRIS WELLMAN: Coming all the way to Wilmington. Right.

[54:50] NANCY: I know I'm getting. I used to be able to drive forever, and now I'm just like, I think I'm going to go to sleep.

[54:59] CHRIS WELLMAN: Maybe they'll do one in Oak island. They probably could.

[55:01] NANCY: Yeah, well, I don't know how many homeless people we have, but there's certainly people that could use lower income housing. But the prop. The land, it's not going to be on the island, but they're building off the islands, you know, just over the. Over the causeway. But, yeah, you know, if you want to have people that are in service industry, they have to have a place to live and. Yeah, a lot of service industry in a tourist town.

[55:31] CHRIS WELLMAN: Yeah, exactly. When I was involved in affordable housing in Brunswick county, that was. That was something we looked at. Like, a lot of the pushback would come from people saying, well, we don't want these kind of people living in our neighborhoods. We say, well, these kind of people are teachers, police officers, the servers at your restaurants. You don't want these kind of people nurses. I mean, you don't want these people living in your community. I mean, they're. So. It takes some education, but, yeah, I think that's a really good thing, to have affordable housing for people that actually work in the community, to be able to live there, too.

[56:07] NANCY: Well, that's why I left New Jersey when I had Kate. It was ridiculous.

[56:12] CHRIS WELLMAN: Just the cost of living was too high.

[56:15] NANCY: Oh, interest rates were, like, 14%, and property taxes were astronomical. They still are. My brother lives there still. Still. I couldn't afford to buy a house, and then my husband got a job in Cincinnati, which is where my parents were from. So I kind of went back to family, and it was cheaper, so I could afford. Yeah, we could afford that one income and never had a huge house, but it was a nice house. And then we moved to Durham in 94, but everything's gotten expensive now if you're in a place where people want to live. But when I moved to Durham, nobody wanted to live in Durham. Now it's, like, popping. Okay, well, I don't want to take up too much more of your time, and I have to see if you want to sign the release to release the interview. So it means that StoryCorps gives the copyright of your recording and all associated interview materials. This means your full length interview will be added to the StoryCorps online archive, along with photos I'll take of you if you decide you want to release it. StoryCorps can also use your interview photograph, information you provide in a variety of ways. Without additional permission. Your interview can be edited, broadcast on, on the radio, used in StoryCorps podcasts, featured in books, animation, and upcoming promotional materials, and more. StoryCorps can also share your interview materials with researchers, community partners, storycorps, funders, supporters, museum and archive institutions where it may be used in exhibitions, programming, educational marketing, media distribution and other purposes. StoryCorps will send all your interview materials to the american Folklife center at the Library of Congress, and you will receive a copy of your interview to share with your friends and family and for your own personal use. Are you all interested in doing the release? Is that okay?

[58:22] CHRIS WELLMAN: Sure. Sounds like they're going to make us famous.

[58:24] NANCY: I know there's a lot of people that do that, so they just do all the bases, but I'm sure it's, you got to photoshop me. You got to photoshop my picture. Okay. I know I do. Did those links send? Here's some says general release.

[58:44] CHRIS WELLMAN: Yes, general.

[58:46] NANCY: Yeah. So if you guys agree, then go ahead and fill that out while you're here. Did you guys fill out the data sheets? I did. Okay.

[58:56] CHRIS WELLMAN: Yeah, I did.

[58:57] NANCY: Okay, so my name is the same as my mother in law's name. Oh, yeah, there you go. Same middle initial, too, so nobody will know who talked. There you go.

[59:14] CHRIS WELLMAN: Yeah.

[59:14] NANCY: Nancy, do you want to send a picture to me or something? Or I lost the other one. Oh, good. That wasn't very good. Okay. Actually, I. Your generation is good at photoshopping. Yeah, there you go. Or if you have a Facebook picture, I can just pull it. I do. Okay, well, I don't know if it's up there. I think I might have a picture of the beach. I don't know what I've got. Yeah, send me what you want. I might just take a picture of you, though, now, Chris, if that's okay. Whenever you're ready.

[01:00:00] CHRIS WELLMAN: Yeah, I'm signing this release thing.

[01:00:01] NANCY: Okay. Yeah. Let me know when you're done. It's terrible. Well, thank you guys for bearing with me with this ridiculous technical difficulties. To be honest, we've had a lot of issues with the platform, so you could hear my frustration. Okay. No one could read this at all. What? What are we. No one can read my signature. Oh, okay. No, that's fine. I have to fill out one, too, and it looks like a squiggle, so I'm not overly concerned.

[01:00:49] CHRIS WELLMAN: I'm supposed to be able to read a signature.

[01:00:52] NANCY: There you go.

[01:00:55] CHRIS WELLMAN: Okay. I think I submitted. Okay, I got it. Try to get most of the sun off my face.

[01:01:04] NANCY: Yeah, looks good. You ready? Uh oh, something happens. It submitted before I put anything in. Oh, I assigned it, and then it just submitted. Oh, well, you have my address. It's all a secret. Do they have your name? And stuff, at least. Or just your signature has my name. Nancy McMurray. It does. It has Nancy McMurray, and it just doesn't have my address. Okay. That's fine. Well, this has been wonderful. Thank you so much for your time. Interesting. This is wonderful. And we're having a listening event on Thursday night. I don't know if you guys got that, but the other people who have participated in the program are coming, so. When is that? Thursday from five to seven. But. Nope, no pressure. Just an option. Oh, it was something that was in the build, in the. In person, wasn't it? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I won't be there. Okay. Well, thank you guys so much. Yeah. I really appreciate it. So nice to meet you, Chris.

[01:02:35] CHRIS WELLMAN: Nice to meet you, Nancy.

[01:02:36] NANCY: Keep doing the good things. I know, Chris, I think we covered the county and city, because they put monies into that, right? I believe.

[01:02:45] CHRIS WELLMAN: Into what?

[01:02:46] NANCY: Into Eden Village.

[01:02:49] CHRIS WELLMAN: I think so. Yeah.

[01:02:50] NANCY: Yeah, yeah. We've covered that. I mainly color cover education, but I know that our newsroom has covered it. But I'm so. That's so wonderful that you're involved in that.

[01:03:00] CHRIS WELLMAN: Yeah. Hopefully do more stuff like that.

[01:03:03] NANCY: Me, too. Me, too. Thank you guys so much. Enjoy your day. Okay, bye.