Christopher Joseph and Sarah Reed

00:00 Hi, my name is Christopher. I am 20 years old, and I live in Charlottesville, Virginia. Today's date is February 17, 2023. And my conversation partner's name is Sarah.

00:13 Hi, my name is Sarah. I am 34 years old, and I live in Scottsville, Virginia. Awesome. Great. So first question for you both is why did you choose to participate in.

00:25 One small step contest conversation? And Christopher, why don't you start? Well, yeah, I was originally introduced through, like, I was introduced through it through email and also through a friend of mine as well. And I really thought that it was a great opportunity to not only hear other people's beliefs, but also share my own story and see how common it is between myself and the other person. And I didn't really know how this whole conversation was going to go, but I'm very hopeful for it.

00:56 So what about you, Sarah? I actually heard about this sort of co worker. I think she's been helping out with this project here, and she was like, I think you'd be really good for this. I absolutely had no idea what I was getting into, but looking at it further after signing up, I was like, oh, this sounds really great, and I'm very happy to be a part of it.

01:16 Awesome.

01:17 Great. And so now I'm going to ask.

01:19 You to take a moment and read.

01:20 Your partner's bio out loud.

01:22 So, Sarah, why don't you read Christopher's.

01:25 Out loud first and just keep in mind as you read them, and once you both finish, what questions might come.

01:31 To mind, what thoughts you have or things you want to discuss.

01:35 Hello, my name is Christopher Joseph. I am very involved in student government and I am part of the FGLI community through Questbridge. I'd say an event that shaped my life would have to be the loss of my mother, since this is what ultimately caused my family to fall below the poverty line and struggle to make ends meet. Nonetheless, this experience has shaped who I am and why I lean democratic liberal on social issues at my current place. Now I am happy to discuss various topics.

02:07 Awesome.

02:07 You can go ahead, read. Sarah's

02:08 All right. I am originally from Powhatan County, Virginia, and moved to Scottsville in March 2020. I was an essential worker during the pandemic. I am from a lower middle class family, divorced parents, blue collar mindset, oldest of five. Life has been generous and given me many growth experiences, both joyous and painful. I just hope to share the best lesson I found. Be yourself, be kind, and make a sincere effort to reach out. You'll find you have so much more in common with everyone. Politics and religion aside, that's awesome.

02:40 Any questions, comments?

02:41 Things that come up from reading those. Yeah. I really liked what you wrote about a learning experience and it both being, like, joyous and painful at the same time. Yeah. Powhatan candy and to Scottsville. That's an interesting transition.

02:55 Yeah. Yeah. It was a bit of a change, but a necessary one. It was right in the middle when the pandemic kind of kicked off. I was living with my grandmother at the time and working at a grocery store. I was scared to bring something home to her, so I had to move. But I love it out here. It's great out here. Some questions that came to mind for me is, do you have any siblings or.

03:17 Well, yeah, so if we're talking about, like, I have a lot of siblings, but the ones that I live with, I live with about, like, three other ones. Some of them are half siblings, other ones are, like, biological. Biological. But, yeah, mainly we just. One of them is going to George Washington University, and then I'm the second oldest. So here, the rest of them are, like, going to middle school right now.

03:41 There you go. Yeah, yeah. Good stuff.

03:45 And then, um, I guess, like, another thing was, like, you said you were, like, a lower middle class family. Like, how has that, like, impacted, like, your views on, like, everything?

03:54 Um, you know, it gave a very. When you're growing up in it, you don't really realize that's where you are. You don't. You're not understanding that, you know, I can't afford the things that other people in my school have. Then as you get into middle school and you start wearing the clothes that everybody else is wearing, it starts to come, you know, starts to become obvious. And I think that's really when it started shaping things for me. But I would say that as tough as it was on my mom and my siblings, it was a blessing, because we learned the value of hard work and really having to put yourself out there when you've got things stacked against you, what you put into it is what you're gonna get. You gotta keep trying.

04:41 Yeah, no, I definitely resonate with that. And, like, I was actually, like, born in Jersey, and then I moved down to Florida, and then now I'm here, so I can all over the place. But mainly, I've spent most of my life in Florida, and it's like a whole different, like, landscape than, like, what it is like over here. And, you know, as, like, a kid, I. We were, like, kind of, like, middle class. But, like, I would say, like, the, like, the loss of, like, my parent is what really, like, drove it, like, yeah, into a lower class because, like, um, my mother was, like, the breadwinner of the family because, like, my dad is an immigrant and, like, he doesn't really know English that well, but at the time, like, he wasn't the one making the most amount of money. And so, like, that experience, like, at the time, I think I was, like, ten ish. But, um, so I didn't really know, like, that we were like, oh, this is, like, gonna, like, right.

05:32 This is the direction it could go.

05:33 But, like, you know, it eventually got there. But, like, we were, we were, you know, we were pulling through. It was going better. And then, you know, my dad has always said, like, you know, keep your dreams high. You know, you. You can make it. You just gotta, like, keep getting good grades and, you know, now I'm here.

05:46 That's right, you made it. You got to Uva. That's a great thing.

05:49 Appreciate it. Yeah. But, um, I was also, like, I was also, like, wondering, because I said, like, I was, like, more democrat liberal leaning, but, like, in your bio, I was just wondering, like, what you were.

06:03 Like, leaning towards Democrat. Well, I mean, I would say more liberal than anything. I don't know if I really want to go so far as to say that I always vote Democrat, but very liberal when it comes to social things, and that's always kind of been where I leaned. But I'm always willing to hear what others have to say. You know, there might be something good there, but it just tends to always be the liberal side.

06:31 No, I definitely agree with that. It reminds me of, like, a story, like, when I was first getting my driver's license. You know how they ask you, like, do you want to register with a party?

06:40 Yeah. Yeah. Like, whoa, wait.

06:41 I just wanted my license. So, like, I said, well, they asked me if I wanted to be an organ donor. I was like, whoa, I wasn't prepared for that question.

06:49 Yeah.

06:49 But then they asked me, like, do I want to register with the party? And I just said, no, not yet, because I don't want to commit to, like, a specific one just yet. But, you know, I consider myself more, like, Democrat liberal leaning just because of, like, my background. But I've specifically, like, in the county that I've lived in in Florida, it's very, like, right leaning, so it's, like, a lot more rural.

07:11 Yeah.

07:11 And so, like, I've had a bunch of friends who are, like, conservative, and I have gotten along with them well. And, yeah, I've seen their perspectives of course, like, I disagree with them on, like, some issues, but I feel like it's kind of helped me to understand, like, what the other side is about, but, like, I just don't want to commit to either one.

07:27 Yeah, I definitely resonate with that. I grew up in a very conservative area. A lot of, many members of my family would be considered conservative, so I'm kind of, like, the odd one out, but, um. But they're good people. Just take the time to talk to them.

07:42 Yeah. You know, and, yeah, I think I. It's really, like, relevant right now, even, because, like, you see, like, all the things on, like, the news and how it's like, ah, there's this one side and, oh, this other side is bad. And I really think it got to, like, a big bad point when, like, the Capitol, like, I don't know what I call it. Like, some people call it, like, a riot, an insurrection, or attack on the Capitol. I don't really know what to call it. But, like, the January 6 thing happened. I feel like that's, like, the. The climax of, like, our divisions.

08:14 Yeah, it definitely felt like it. It really did. Yeah, it was a very, very scary day. I mean, for me. I mean, I don't know how old you were when 911 happened, but.

08:22 Oh, I wasn't even born.

08:23 Oh, you were? Oh, okay. Yeah, I was in middle school, and they remind. A lot came up for me that day, like, when j six happened.

08:31 Yeah.

08:31 Just thinking about, like, wow, we're all, I mean, this is going to resonate worldwide. And it was scary. Scary that day.

08:39 Yeah, for sure.

08:40 And you bring up 911 and kind of childhood and growing up in more rural communities and what that was like. Could you guys talk about maybe your earliest memory of politics, the first time when you felt like you interacted with politics? Go first or I can go first or whatever.

09:00 I have to think about that a little bit.

09:04 Like, when you say interacted with politics, like, what are we talking here? Like, you started getting involved, or, like, it could be observation. It could be, you know, seeing parents. It could be getting involved yourself, whatever just sticks out as a memory. I think the earliest memory I have is when I started, you know, because the elections would still be on tv and you'd be seeing everybody with their, with their campaign and whatnot, and starting to ask questions of, what is. What does Republican mean? Why is there an elephant and why is there a donkey? I don't understand. And basically my family was like, oh, well, we're republican. Like, oh, okay. And I just went with it. I didn't know what that meant until much later. And then especially, like, in high school, I think I got more involved when I came out and started with my best friend, our first gay straight alliance that the school had ever had. So that was, you know, that's when I really started to see. No, I do think differently, and that's okay.

09:57 No, for sure. And, like, I think my. My earliest memory would have to be, like, learning. No, it was the. It was Obama's election. I remember that because my dad was extremely passionate being, like, a haitian immigrant, and he's, like, seeing, like, oh, this is the first black president. Like, this is amazing. And, like, he was very excited about it. So then when he was excited, I was also excited, even though I didn't even know, like, anything about either candidate. And then it was really funny because, like, I think I also fell asleep during his victory speech. But we'll talk about that. But it was. It was. It was a weird experience because my dad was like, oh, yeah, we're. We're very Democrat. And I was like, well, what is the other, like, what's republican?

10:41 Right.

10:41 Why do people, like, you know, disagree so much? And I was like, at first, me being like a child at the time, I was like, oh, it's because people like donkeys and, you know, other people.

10:51 Like, the same thing. I was like, well, they're both cool. I mean, yeah.

10:54 So I think, like, growing into, like, you know, learning more about politics and social issues, especially, like, I think the turning point was, like, high school for me because the Parkland shooting happened, and, like, that hit very close to home, and that's, like, kind of, like, sparked our community to, like, talk about more political issues. And I think that's when I started really paying attention to politics. But, like, not as much, but, yeah, ever, like, right before that. Like, I haven't really paid attention much to it.

11:23 Yeah, that makes sense. And who would you say is perhaps one of the most influential people in your life, and what did they teach you?

11:34 Well, I mean, I could go first. So, I mean, I would be tempted to say my mom, but I think my dad is really the most influential figure in my life just because his story is, like, it's inspiring for me because he. He grew up in, like, a very, very poor country, Haiti, at the time. And this was, like, thankfully, it was before the earthquake, but it got so much worse after that. But he came over here not really knowing much English, and then he was working as a dishwasher for a cracker barrel, and he didn't know, at the time, but they were paying him less than minimum wage because, like, he didn't understand English that well. And the reason he met my mom was because, like, she was the one that was like, wait a minute. Your paycheck doesn't look right. And so, like, because she worked at that cracker barrel as well, and so that's how they met. But, you know, ever since, like, you know, throughout the time that I've spent growing up, my dad has always been, you know, the person that's, like, you know, you need to set your dreams higher. I was never able to go to college. You know, I was born in a country that didn't have any opportunity, and now I'm here, and now you have the chance to, like, make more of that, you know, because, like, he's like, oh, I can't go to college anymore. I'm too old for that. I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna, you know, retire or something eventually. But he's really, like, been the one that's been encouraging me to, like, you know, always strive for something bigger. And when I was, like, when I was a bit confused about where I wanted to go for college or even if I wanted to go to college, he was the one that was just like, you know, apply to Questbridge. You know, it's a shot in the dark, but it might as well. And it's one of the reasons why I'm here and why I'm still trying to, like, continue, you know, making him proud.

13:19 He sounds like a really great guy.

13:20 Yeah. Thank you.

13:24 I would have to say the most influential. Influential. It's two people. It's my grandparents. They. They really helped out my family when my parents separated. I was five, I believe, and, you know, kind of similar. We, you know, you don't have those two incomes coming in anymore. My mom was really struggling, but they were always there, and including letting us stay with them for several years before we were able to go back to a house, like, to an actual house of our own. And you know what they really taught me? Kind of similar to what your dad was saying, like, shoot high. Just keep trying. And I think what I really got from them was seeing, watching them just as a couple, the teamwork they had. When you come from a divorced family, you don't have that role model, if you will, relationship role model. So they really provided that to me all throughout my life. He passed away when I was 21, but still to this day, I try to live by, you know, his example and my grandma's example of just be good to everybody. Be kind. It does not. Everything you see on tv, all this division, it's just for whatever reason, your ratings are hype, whatever. Like, these are your neighbors. These are your family.

14:53 Yeah.

14:53 You've got to be good to each other, and you've got to keep trying in life. You must keep working hard. You've got to keep setting goals and going after them. Don't. Just. Don't. Just settle.

15:05 Yeah.

15:06 Don't put yourself down like that. You can keep going.

15:09 No, I definitely agree, and I'm so sorry for your loss as well. And, I mean, growing up, I don't have the experience of, like, a divorced household, so, like, I. I can't say, like, I resonate with that, but, like, I understand. Like, it's. It's harder to be separated between, like, two parents, and I. It's just like, you know, learning to, like, strive higher in life, I think that's a really good, like, mindset.

15:36 Yeah.

15:37 And I think it's, like, something that, like, you know, a lot of people, we're still trying to figure out for ourselves, to be honest.

15:41 Yeah. And you might start off thinking that you might have. That you have one goal, you start going into it, and maybe you change your mind. That's okay. That doesn't mean that it's over. You've wasted time or anything. You can always change direction and keep going. It's that momentum, that belief in yourself that's really gonna make or break you.

15:58 Yeah. And then I also, like, I had a question. So you said, like, you came out, like, was it during high school, you said.

16:07 Yeah, I was. I believe I was in 11th grade, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah.

16:13 How was that experience for you? Like, were you supported or.

16:18 It wasn't. It wasn't a good experience, but I don't regret it. My family, I think, was, you know, there was a lot of growing for us that had to happen years, you know, years afterwards. But if you were to look at how it was that week I came out compared to today, totally different, but in the right direction. It just took us, you know, continuing to communicate and not giving up on family and, you know, it took. Took a while, but. But it's good now. But I. You know, in the beginning, it was. It was very challenging for all of us.

16:55 Yeah, no, I bet. But I'm glad. Like, it's heading into the right direction.

17:02 Oh, yeah, no, I mean, I. You know, we're just as close as ever, so, you know, it was. It was a small blip. On the journey, but we got through it.

17:09 Yeah.

17:10 And I was just going to say, you both have talked a lot about to your interactions with people who think differently than you and growing up with that. And I was wondering, you know, do you ever feel misunderstood by people with different beliefs?

17:25 And adding on to that, how do.

17:29 You interact with people with different beliefs? What are your tactics? How do you approach that situation?

17:35 Well, I mean, I could go back to the conversation of, like, having a friend who was, like, very conservative. And one thing that I didn't see at all, but, like, there was, like, a time, especially, like, during the Trump administration, where there was, like, if you would say that you were like, a Trump supporter, like, people would get mad at you or, like, they would, like, attack you almost. He was bringing that concern up to me, and I was like, you know what? I haven't really thought of it like that because, like, I, at the time, like, I wasn't really engaged in politics, but, like, I was also kind of, like, towards the opposite spectrum. So to hear him, like, say, like, you know, I don't really want to talk about politics, like, in the, like, in the class because everybody else is like, this way and I'm this way. And I kind of felt bad for him. And one thing I remember is we were talking about, like, I think it was like, gun control. And this was like, like a year after Parkland, like, on the anniversary. So, like, a lot of people were definitely going to be, like, you know, pro gun laws, except especially, like, most of the people in our class were like the same age as, like, the people at Parkland. But him on the, like, him, on the other hand, his family is, like, very pro gun. And he, he agreed like, that there needs to be, like, more common sense gun control. But, like, he doesn't agree with, like, the, we should take guns away. But, like, when he says that, people still think, like, he's going against everything that they're saying. And so I felt bad for him in a sense because, like, I kind of agreed with his point and, I mean, I don't want to take away guns either. But, like, I definitely understood where he was coming from.

19:16 Absolutely. That was, it was something that really bothered me when, you know, especially during the Trump administration and, you know, leading up to, you know, the next election, I knew plenty of people that were Trump supporters didn't really care to get into too deep of conversation. But one thing I noticed is there was a very real sense of fear that they had. I don't like people being afraid, you know, what? I mean, that must be a really awful place to be if you're feeling afraid to even talk about what you believe in. So, you know, when you hear. Because I saw people calling out that they were wearing the hat, you know, people from across the street would just start yelling profanities, and that's awful. Like, you should not. You were on the other side of the street. I mean, you're going out of your way to just attack a stranger. There is no need for that. And it's, you know, they're free to wear what they want to wear, and it's just a hat, guys. You know, but I. Yeah, no, you said feel misunderstood. I think that was part of the question. I do sometimes feel misunderstood, but I always have found that if I can just keep them in conversation long enough, we start to find enough in common, and we can start to break down the barriers of what you thought of me. And I can clarify that for you just in, like, ten to 15 minutes. We can kind of get through that if they're being, you know, if they're open to that. I've had very good success with that tactic, if you will. But, I mean, yeah, people are, you know, going to misunderstand some things about me upon first looking at me. It's gonna happen. But I think we are all kind of guilty of doing that at some point in our lives. You know, we have to remember that they're not the enemy, if you will.

21:10 Right. No, I definitely agree. And I guess I want to also answer the question of, like, feeling misunderstood. And, I mean, growing up, like, biracial, you know, my mother was, like, white, and my dad was haitian black. So, like, and my mother's side of the family was, let's just say, like, they weren't really as accepting of my dad being of, like, a different race. I'm not gonna, like, I don't know if I'm gonna call them, like, they were racist at the time, but, like, I was thinking, like, they're probably, like, they had a preference, is what I'm gonna think they're gonna say, because, like, I mean, they're still, like, good people and they've. They've changed, of course. But, like, at the time, as a child, I didn't really quite understand it, but, like, growing up, like, into, like, middle school, like, you know, after we moved from Jersey, like, they never really tried to keep contact with us. And, like, you know, after, like, after my mother passed, like, that's when they kind of, like, got. Got back in contact with us and they were like, hey, like, we're sorry this happened and stuff like that, and we've been. We've still been trying to work on it, but I feel like they. I feel like I've been misunderstood by them because, like, I feel like the last time we've, like, really talked about, like, you know, topics or, like, even. Not even, like, politics, but just in general, like, you know, they don't really take into consideration, like, how, like, I've grown up or, like, how my dad is handling stuff. Like, they haven't reached out to, like, try to help him at all, like, ever since that's happened. And so, like, my dad kind of, like, he also doesn't really like them either, but he, um. They're definitely, like, trying to work on improvement. I'm trying to, like, foster the connection between them, and I just feel like they kind of got off on the wrong foot, especially because, like, of the prejudices, like, between her side of the family and, you know, I feel like it's something that we're still working on, but I definitely feel like both sides are, like, misunderstood. But I feel like my dad is, like, very, like, defensive about it.

23:07 Yeah, there's a defensiveness that really can get in the way when you're trying to talk to somebody. Like, I'm truly not trying to lay any accusations down. Just want to talk, you know? But if that wall is there, sometimes it's best to kind of take a step back. You can always come back, but, yeah, yeah, for sure.

23:26 And then another thing that, like, I was also thinking about is, like, from the perspective of, like, my dad himself, he's, like, haitian, right? And so every time he sees, like, american problems, he's, like, classic America. Or, like, I know for a fact, like, my dad is, like, he, he, like, he thinks of, like, politics, especially, like, with regards to, like, the economy and stuff like that. Like, he just completely doesn't understand, like, people who, like, aren't democrat and, like, he just shuts them down. He. He, like, he really just doesn't understand it at all. And so, like, when I'm, like, trying to, like, talk to him about, like, social issues where I'm like, he's like, oh, how are you not, like, why aren't you, like, strong democrat? I'm like, you see, I. It's because I have friends that are, like, on the other side, and, you know, I don't want to, like, you know, go against them, but also, like, I can kind of see where they're coming from. And I feel like my dad he just hasn't had that experience yet to really, like, talk to someone from, like, the other side and really just understand, like, what their experience is like. Cause I feel like he would understand it, too.

24:32 Absolutely.

24:32 But from his perspective, all he sees is, like, oh, I've come to this country, and, like, every single opportunity that I've had has just been taken away from me because of, like, my background, and I could definitely understand his point.

24:44 Yeah. Yeah.

24:44 But it's just hard to, like, facilitate the discussion.

24:48 Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, those are some really hard experiences and that he had to go through. You know, obviously, that's gonna be.

24:57 Yeah.

24:57 You know, it's gonna be a sore, tender place, you know, but I think he's done a good job with y'all.

25:05 Yeah. Thank you. And do you.

25:11 I know we've talked about people with differences. Did you ever feel troubled by people with similar beliefs and how they go about politics and how those conversations happen? Seems like, yes.

25:23 Oh, for sure. Did you want to go first?

25:25 You know, the only thing I really have to say to that is we can't have people on either side just screaming and shouting at each other. We're never going to make any progress if we keep doing that. So it really bothers me. Me, when I see people that I know have similar beliefs is mine, but they're just. They're grouping everyone on the other side together, and they're not looking at them as individuals. They're looking at them as, like, this other entity of some kind. They're not. It's way too simplistic, way too generalized. And that only makes it worse. That kind of only gives ammo.

26:10 Yeah.

26:11 To throw it right back at us. So, you know that I have been very troubled, especially during the, you know, the previous administration. I thought it felt like both sides were getting pretty ugly with each other. And again, it just wasn't. It was not helping at all. It wasn't helping.

26:30 And, you know, that definitely, like, reminds me of, like, what we've had at my high school. It, uh. It got on, like, national news for, like, it's such a small high school, so it's, like, weird seeing it on the national news. But it was because they, um. There was a bill in Florida. It was called, like, don't say gay.

26:48 Yeah, I read about that. Yeah.

26:49 Yeah. And so Ron DeSantis was the governor at the time. He's republican, but, yeah. What happened was, um, there was a friend of mine who was, like, an underclass with. So he was a senior, but he was organizing, like, a, like, peaceful walkout during the school, like, you know, just to protest. Like, the bill to not be signed. And the school, like, ultimately, like, they suspended him for no reason. Like, they gave him no reason. He couldn't go to the school for three days, and he had to, like, fight to learn the reason why. And they were like, oh, well, you're, it's because you're, like, handing out, like, pride flags and you're, like, trying to, like, put, push an agenda. And, like, we were very mad by that, but I could definitely understand why we were mad at that. And we, like, pushed back and we won that fight. But the problem was, is, like, then, like, we were starting to say, like, oh, this is just because, like, all Republicans are just trying to, like, shut off our voices and stuff. And it's like, that's not the issue. What I think ultimately happened was the superintendent was like, hey, we don't want this to be a political campus, so just do it outside. And I think that's fair enough. But, like, we just jumped to conclusions on it. And I do think it was wrong that no suspension reason was given at the time or even suspending him in the first place. Yeah, but I just, I think that from our side, I think that while they did something wrong, I think we jumped to conclusions way too fast, and then that caused, like, the whole situation to blow up into, like, national news, and then one side was using it for an agenda and the other side was using it for another agenda, and it just got exhausting.

28:28 Yeah. And it turns, it becomes something completely different than what it started as. And then, and then, like you said, people start using it for different agendas. So then it's like, you've lost, like, the autonomy that you had in the beginning, and they've hijacked it in a way.

28:42 And, like, it always feels nice to have, like, you know, national attention on, like, what you want.

28:49 Right.

28:49 But then it's like, it's a double edged sword because then they could use that and twist it.

28:53 Yeah.

28:54 It's like, you know, that's not what we were here for in the first place.

28:57 Yeah.

28:58 And I don't know, like, how my friend is doing now, but I think he, I think he's, like, verified now. He's, like, become a public figure. So I think he's doing well because of it. But, like, I think overall, like, the look of the national attention kind of hurt. Like, our campaign, like, what we were fighting for.

29:15 Right.

29:16 Same time. Because now, like, the people on, like, Fox News, they're just like, oh, they're trying to force an agenda on all the students in the school room. It's like, no, no, that's nothing. What it is.

29:25 And I do want to speak to that, you know? You know, given the age difference, let me just tell you, that was something I heard in high school, was the gay agenda. Yeah, that was. That's been around. That's been around for some time. It's like, it'll quiet down for a little bit. You know, when I graduated, it really seemed like things were getting better.

29:44 Yeah.

29:44 And then it went in a totally different direction recently. But you'll. You'll notice that things kind of do that there's an ebb and tied to it. So, you know, even though it was a rough experience, it's nothing new, trust me. And it will get. It will turn for the good. It's just. Time's got to take over on that one.

30:08 And then I guess, like, a follow up question is, like, do you think, like, the country is heading in a right direction or a wrong direction or kind of both?

30:16 You know, for a while there, I was pretty scared. You know, especially in the last administration, I was. I was scared, like, just like people on the other side are. You know, they're scared of their guns being taken away. I'm scared of my right to marry being taken away.

30:29 Yeah.

30:30 We all have these. These fears about what the future holds, and especially in a time like that, you know, it's. It looks really dark. It looks really scary. I have had more hope, though, and let me be very clear. This is nothing about who's in office. This is more to do, I think, coming here to Charlottesville and being back on, like, you know, it's a campus kind of city, like y'all. There's a school here. I have a lot of hope because of the students, to be honest with you, the interactions I've had, I'm like, okay, we're in good hands. I really believe that. And so I do think we. It's not going to be easy, but we're heading in the right direction. I think we're in good hands. This next generation, as much as I'm sure we can go on social media and find all the funny memes that pick on each other's generations, but I'm really. I'm really confident in this generation. I think they're gonna lead us in a good direction.

31:37 I kind of agree with that. I think I've seen it, like, as side of, like, both in a sense, because I think, like, nationwide, I think it is, like, good. But then whenever I, like, go back to Florida, like, I'm reminded of, like, you know, the Roe v. Wade situation. Like, now they're, like, really trying to work to, like, you know, like, become more conservative within their laws, and it's, like, for, like, the people that are, like, more democrat or liberal leaning. Like, it feels like they're going, like, backwards, and then the other side feels like it's kind of, like, going forward, and then there's just more and more of a clash that's happening. And, I mean, I feel like there's definitely, like, a conversation that needs to be had, like. Like, even in the individual state level or city level, but then, like, I think nationwide, I think we're going in a good direction. Yeah, but maybe, like, in the state direction, it's like. It's harder to say.

32:28 It is. It's so different from one to the other. I mean, you know, especially with the overturn of Roe and persuade that's.

32:35 Yeah.

32:35 You know, some states are just. I don't know if I want to live there, you know? And it's nothing to do with the people there, and it's nothing to do with how, you know, great a state it is, but it's the laws that are being passed that would make someone like me nervous, you know, and not just me, but several people. You know, many, many people. People from all different backgrounds. But, yeah, I agree. We have some work to do on the local side of things, and I think we often forget how important the local elections and everything are, but we're gonna go in the right direction.

33:09 Yeah, I agree.

33:11 You both have touched a lot on particular issues that have influenced your life. But is there any other either political.

33:20 Moments or different issues within american society.

33:23 That influence your political beliefs or that are just particularly important to you?

33:28 So could you, like, word it again? I'm so sorry.

33:31 Sure, sure. It's just curious as to if there.

33:35 Are any issues or beliefs or current.

33:38 Problems that the country's facing that you're particularly interested in or curious about or have informed you as a person.

33:46 Yeah, I mean, definitely for me, after, like, the situation at Parkland, definitely I've been more avid, like, about gun control and then Roe v. Wade, especially in Florida, is, like, a very, very hot topic. But I think, like, also, like, I think during the time of the pandemic, like, how we were. How we were managing it, because then there was, like, the whole thing about mask versus no mask. And then, like, for me, like, I thought, like, you know, if you're going inside, people ask you to put on mask. Just put on a mask. It's not hard. But then I remember, like, this video surfacing where, like, this person was like, my. My dad died of COVID and the person was like, so what? People die. Natural selection. I was like, whoa, whoa, hold on there. I was like, holy moly. Like, some people just, like, they get so heated over, like, such small topics, and it's like, oh, you're going to become a sheep to the government if you do. And I'm like, you know, maybe. I don't know. I don't feel like I don't agree with that. And I feel like we get, like, so heated with it, but, like, you know, I don't know what it's like to, you know, be anti mass. So, like, I feel like I don't really understand that viewpoint yet. And I feel like that might be my own prejudice, you know? Cause, like, I just. I never really understood the argument of, like, not wearing a mask, but I don't know. That's. That's one part that I've been really interested in. But now that the pandemic is overdevelop, kind of, like, faded into irrelevancy, but now we're talking about, like, definitely Roe v. Wade. And then, like, you know, especially with what happened, the situation in Memphis, like, police brutality. And, you know, one argument that I've, like, seen is, like, both agendas are like, oh, my God. You're trying to say that, like, all cops are bad or cops are racist, and it's like, no, it's not that cops are bad or, you know, these cops are, like, racist. You know, because, like, you know, those cops, they were, like, black as well. Like, it's not a problem with race. It's just because they have that power to, like, they can abuse that power, and they need to be held to a higher standard. That's, like, the argument that we're trying to go for, but it's like. It feels like both sides are, like, pulling it into a different thing. It's either about, like, race, or it's about, like, all cops being bad. Oh, you don't support blue lives? Or. Or, like. Yeah, it's. It's crazy.

36:01 Would go a step further and say one of the. You know, because, I mean, I've. No, not all cops are bad. Let's. Let's get that out of the way right now. I have friends that are officers, and they're great people.

36:11 Yeah.

36:11 Um, you know, but bad eggs do get in there. We see that unfortunately, way too often now. And the sad thing is that this was probably going on all the time, but now we have the ability to catch it and. Which is good, but also, you know, incredibly scary and sad. But, you know, they also, officers also need good training. And if we're not giving them the resources, and I'm not saying more ammo, but training on how to talk to people, people that are different from them to help prepare for what they're about to go do. And because obviously, there's going to be some dangerous situations. But for the most part, it's just knowing how to talk to people. If they're not given that opportunity to learn to grow, well, then, yeah, you're going to have some bad, you know, not like, bad as a personality, but, like, they're going to be bad at their job.

37:10 Yeah.

37:10 You know, you've got to be able to give them the tools and resources that they need and again, not more ammo. Like, I think we. I think they're good on that. I think we just need to, you know, focus on how to make them better.

37:23 Yeah.

37:23 At their job. I definitely agree, you know, and then we'll hope, ideally, we'll see good change from that.

37:30 And then, like, another thing, like, I was just thinking about while you're saying that is, like, you know, it is about training as well. And, you know, back in high school, my freshman year, I didn't really know if I wanted to go, like, college, so, like, I went to ROTC maybe, like, hey, like, maybe I'll join the military, but, you know, I. That didn't work out. But the. My, I have a couple of friends that, like, are, like, one is stationed in Germany and, like, he's. He's been through basic and he's, like, talking about, like, he. He's also, like, conservative, but, like, he's also talking about, like, he also, like, did, like, agrees that the officers that were, like, involved in that were horrible.

38:08 Oh, yeah.

38:08 He's like, the military has such a higher standard of training and, like, you know, because, like, you are using weapons that, like, could hurt people. And it's like, they are held to a very higher standard than, like, police officers are. And he thinks, like, there should be more training for, like, for police officers because, like, they, they're even. They're in more situations that, like, could go wrong because he's like, oh, I'm, like, overseas, but, like, half the time I'm just, like, cleaning Humvees.

38:34 Right.

38:34 It's like, right when you're a cop, it's like, you're in there for, like, whether it's, like, domestic abuse or, like, for a simple, like, drug charge. You're speeding.

38:42 Yeah.

38:42 Like, there's always a situation that could go bad, and you have to be, like, trained to deal with that. And it's just like we. We don't hold our offices to a higher standard.

38:51 Yeah.

38:51 And I. That's the argument that, like, we're trying to make, but, you know, it's just. It keeps getting twisted and molded into something else.

38:58 Yeah. Yeah. Well, again, they're trying to. It's trying to simplify it. You cannot simplify this. We're talking about humans.

39:05 Yes.

39:05 It's not a simple subject, and it's not black versus white. It's not anything like that. It's trying to help people talk to each other better, and that's the only way it's going to get better. If we don't know how to talk to each other, we're just going to keep fighting. And for these officers, they need that support in terms of, like. I mean, it's just like any other job. If you had somebody come in and they're. They've never done this before, are you just gonna give them, what, 2 hours of training? Good luck. That doesn't. That's not gonna work. That wouldn't work even at a gas station.

39:45 Yeah.

39:46 You know, so. And I'm not saying obviously, they get, like, I don't know, six or eight weeks, but maybe it needs to be longer. Maybe we need more, you know, people in there teaching them different things. That aside from just pulling a. Pulling a gun.

39:59 No, for sure.

40:00 You know, that's not. Obviously, they're gonna have to do that at some point, unfortunately, but hopefully never. But if they know how to de escalate without ever pulling that out, then we have different outcomes.

40:14 Yeah. And, like, my. My dad was a police officer in Haiti, and he's like, we don't even have these problems. He's like. Because, like, their level of training, like, they. The way that it works is that when he was training to be a police officer in Haiti, they actually, like, sent him on a plane to go to Fort Leonard Wood in Missouri, which is, like, a military base. So they trained him, like, pretty much, like, on, like, a military base.

40:38 Yeah.

40:38 Military tactics, and they send him back. And while, like, there's a lot of problems that are, like, still happening, but, like, he's still, like. He still, like, there needs to be, like, a higher level of training.

40:50 Yeah.

40:50 And, like, I. I agree with that sentiment.

40:53 Yeah. No, I come from a military family. My brother is in the military. My father, my grandfather, my great grandfather. It goes back. Let me tell you something. I mean, there were, there were firearms in our homes growing up. I was never allowed to go near that. They were locked up. It was, you know, if I wanted to shoot even a bb gun, I had to have an adult with me. And, I mean, it was just much more serious than just, oh, yeah, that's fine. Or, like, leaving it out on the table. Like, you walk into some houses and you're like, whoa, what's going on here? So, yeah, I completely agree with you. Cause the military does. There's a much higher standard, and they really try to give all the training and preparation that they can to them so that before they release you with, like, this big rifle, you know, it makes a difference. It really does. And you will be held accountable if you mess up. Like, there's no running from it. And we definitely need that for the officers as well. There shouldn't be any of this. I've got a badge, and that's all I need to get out of this. Absolutely not. You were no different than anyone else. This is a job. If I do something wrong at work, I'll get written up. That means you need to as well. Or maybe just not have the job. Maybe this isn't the job for you.

42:14 No, I definitely agree. And I think, like, another thing to think about is, like, we've been talking about, like, you know, cops, and then, like, we don't really, like, when we analyze, like, the public's reaction to it as well. Like, I remember, like, I think there's, like, I've seen a little bit of a difference between, like, the way that the public reacted to, like, the George Floyd situation and, like, how he reacted to the situation that's happening right now. And, like, I think, like, back then, it's like, you know, there's a lot more coverage on, like, you know, BLM is riding. Oh, they're doing this.

42:44 Oh, gosh.

42:44 Yeah, it's like, it was a lot. I feel like it was a lot more tense, like, at that moment in time. And, like, I feel like we certainly, like, had a better step and, like, I forgot the word, but, like, remaining calm. Like, as a public, like, you know, we're mad, but we're taking out, we're taking a situation in a good way. We're peacefully protesting, you know, and I think for the most part, like, I haven't seen as much, like, bias from either side as of now, but there still is. No, yeah, there always is. But I feel like it's a lot calmer in the situation than it was back then.

43:21 Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, you think about. Well, I mean, not just Michael Brown, but Trayvon Martin. Yeah. You know, again with the ability. And I don't think there was any cell phone recording with Trayvon Martin, if I'm not. I think it was just a recording.

43:36 Just an audio recording.

43:36 An audio recording. But then, you know, you had the Michael Brown and some people did catch some things. There was a lot of pent up anger and suffering from, like, these communities that had been there for generations. So I'm not saying that it's good idea to go smash windows, but I'm saying that that came from a real place of pain. And at the end of the day, a window is. A broken window is nothing compared to the value of a human life. So, you know, and don't get me wrong, no one needs to be writing. You're right. It's good to try to take the higher road if you can, but to sit there and make people out to be barbarians or something like that, just because of that. I mean, come on, the man was. This young man is gone forever. Forever, yeah. And you're gonna throw a big fuss over broken windows or something like that. That's. You need to. I would say you need to re evaluate your priorities here. You know, that's. We're talking about two different, completely different things.

44:38 Yeah, no, I definitely agree. I mean, I always think, like, you know, like, you shouldn't, like, have to, you know, like break, break.

44:45 No.

44:46 You know, it's certainly better than, like, you just like, this person dying.

44:51 Right. Absolutely. But, you know, again. But that's what happens when, again, we're talking generations of suffering. That's a lot of pent up pain and it's gonna come out somewhere. And when you see something like that happen.

45:07 Yeah.

45:09 I can't say that I wouldn't have been, if I have to be honest with myself, would I have been just as angry? Probably. If that were my family member or my friend, my neighbor, I probably would have been out there with them. I'm not saying I would have been breaking things, but I would have been there because you feel like you need to be there. You feel like you've got to show your support in some way. So, you know, and that's what happens with. I mean, that's a human thing. Yeah, that's how I would say it. It's a human thing.

45:37 Yeah. No, I certainly agree with that. And it's crazy. Just like, thinking about, like, all the politics of, like, what it means to just protest. People are angry. People want to voice their concerns. People want to make a difference in the way that things are being done. And it's just like, no matter what happens, you're still being painted in a bad light by one side. Or you're saying, oh, we're against cops or blue lives matter. And they do. They do.

46:10 Absolutely.

46:11 We're not barbarians, you know, like, as you said. No, it's crazy.

46:15 Yeah. You're trying to spin it into something else. When we. When we. Again, when we just generalize and, you know, you're taking away, it's like, well, you're diverting. You're kind of deflecting away from the real issue, which is that someone's dead.

46:30 Yeah.

46:30 You know, and that's. You're trying to make it something else so that we don't focus on that. And then, of course, more people get angry when that happens. I'm sure they're a cycle that just keeps going. But, yeah, especially with the. I like what you said about the politics around protesting. It reminds me, there was. I don't know if y'all have heard of this. There was. That there was a church out west, Westboro Baptist church. Y'all heard of them?

46:58 I think I've heard of them. What happened?

47:00 So they would have. They were really. Their way of spreading. Their mission was to go around and picket soldiers funerals with signs that said things like, God hates, and I'm not gonna. I don't feel comfortable saying it, but it's a derogatory term for gay people. And they came to Richmond when I was in my early twenties. We found out that they were going to a high school, one other place I can't remember, but also the Holocaust museum, which, you know, I have. I have several jewish friends, and, you know, this is also my city. How dare you? So we actually left work in the middle of our shift to go down there and kind of do that counter protest. But what I was really struck by is when we got there and I made signs, I was ready to yell and scream back, I'm young. I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna go take it to them. Well, when we got there, everybody, like, all the, you know, I mean, technically I was an adult, but, like, I felt like the other people, there were way more adults. You know, they're standing outside and they're like, I want you to put your signs down or put them in this trash. No one's having any signs, we're gonna walk over to them, we're gonna try to have a conversation, and if that doesn't work, we're all going to come back to the museum for a service. And, like, I'd never actually been inside the museum before, and, you know, that was probably one of the most powerful things I ever witnessed because the man that was running the museum, I believe him and his family did survive the Holocaust. He came out of the door, so we were all waiting down at the bottom of the steps for, because he was going to lead us over to where they were on a corner just down at the end of the block, the Westboro Baptist church people. So he comes out and walking behind him was a few catholic priests, a few other people that were clearly other ministers, and a couple of, I believe they're called imams for Islam, walking behind in solidarity with him. And they did. They went down, he tried to talk to them. They kept screaming back. He said, I love you. You are welcome here. And, like, it was just a really powerful moment. And that was probably the best protest I've ever attended. And we did go back and we were all together having a little, you know, a brief service about love and unity. And we left them alone. We didn't give them the time of day. We tried and then we walked away. If that was how they wanted to be, we weren't going to stoop to that. No one brought their signs. No one yelled back. We just walked away. That was probably the best protest I've ever seen.

49:51 Yeah, because, I mean, then you're getting to the point of like, oh, screaming match between both people. You don't get anywhere. But that's very powerful like that. He just like, said, I love you. Oh.

50:01 I mean, it was, you know, there wasn't a dry eye. There really wasn't, because, I mean, again, we all came down there with this, like, this energy, ready to fight, and, and it was just ripped away. But like, in a very gentle, loving way of like, that's right. We're supposed to be like this.

50:14 Yeah.

50:14 And if they're not willing to talk, we can just walk away. We don't have to keep yelling. You know, it was a really great.

50:21 Experience, but, and then would you say, like, that changed, like, your, your views about, like, protesting and stuff like that?

50:27 It very much did. It very much did. And that's when I started kind of looking around at, you know, people that I knew that were, had the same similar beliefs, political beliefs, but we're doing that yelling back and I realized I don't really want to be a part of that. Like, I really don't. I don't think that's. I've got to walk over and shake their hand. I can't keep yelling at what, nothing's going to happen. I've got to go over and talk to them, and if they don't want to talk, that's fine. They don't have to talk to you at that time. That may not. That might be the wrong moment. You could always come back, but don't push people into it. Don't attack them. That's not. You're not gonna get anywhere.

51:08 Yeah, I definitely agree. And I think one of the things, like, I unfortunately, like, I was here when they don't say gay Bill was being protested, so I wasn't there. But when the George Floyd situation happened, we were there marching, and, I mean, thankfully, it's peaceful.

51:25 Yeah. Because the march is supposed to be peaceful.

51:27 Yeah.

51:27 You know.

51:28 Yeah. And, I mean, we've had a couple of people that are just like, you know, we just ignored them. Like, you know, we. They. I don't. We didn't. We. I guess we assumed that they didn't want to talk, so we didn't, like, go talk to them. Maybe that's something we could.

51:41 Sometimes you have to read the situation, you know?

51:43 Yeah, we. We just continued.

51:45 Yeah.

51:45 Yeah. I think it made a statement.

51:47 Yeah. You showed up. That. That's the statement. That's all you can really. I mean, that's all it's supposed to be, and it's not supposed to fix everything. Right then. Right. You know, there. But it does show that, you know, people do care about this. Yes. It makes it, that whole thought and belief visibly known.

52:05 Yeah.

52:06 That makes sense.

52:07 No, I agree 100%.

52:10 Well, this has been a really wonderful conversation. We're coming close to you the time. I know. It goes so fast. Just looking at some.

52:18 Some closing thoughts.

52:19 Is there anything about your beliefs that you don't agree about, but respect or if it feels like people are on the same page, anything that you learned about each other today that surprised you? Any takeaways from the conversation?

52:35 I mean, I felt like we agreed for the most part.

52:37 Yeah. Yeah, I would say so. We had different ways of coming to our beliefs. Our life, you know, our lives gave different experiences, but I think we kind of stand on the same solid ground, I would say.

52:50 And I think, like, the main important thing that I've taken away from this is just, like, having a conversation really is, like, the most important part of, like, getting to know someone, because I don't. I believe that, you know, like, most tall people, like, are good, have good intentions, you know? And, like, the bad that we, like, see all around is just. Just because people are being, like, either misled or misunderstood or a combination of both. And I think, like, getting the time to, like, actually talk to you, it's like, I feel like that's further, like, increased my belief that, like, you know, people always have a story behind them, and that story is, like, really what causes them to think in a certain way, you know, because, I mean, our lives were both vastly different. And, you know, I feel like. I'm not gonna say it's, like, random chance, but it's just a chance that we both have, like, similar views because of the way that we grew up. And it's like, that isn't the case for a lot of other people. And I think that's something that we need to understand as we move along through our lives.

53:46 Yeah, absolutely. You have to always keep in mind that you really don't know where someone's coming from at the end of the day, and you're not gonna know until you talk to them.

53:54 Yeah.

53:56 If they're willing to share, they may not be willing. That's fine, too.

53:59 Yeah.

54:00 You know, one thing that I really. I really am glad to have met you.

54:05 Oh, I understand.

54:06 I think you're gonna do great things. I especially appreciate you sharing the struggles that you and your family had. I think it speaks a lot to you, your character and your direction. So keep it up, man.

54:23 I really think that you're, like, a strong figure, because I need to go through the. Of, like, coming out with, like, it's such, like a. Like a rural, conservative county, and then, you know, to make amends with your family. And, like, even as they're, like, split apart as well, like, it's hard. I can definitely, like, understand that. And I think, like, you're, like, you've been really, like, very strong individual, and, like, I feel like you're also gonna do great things. I mean, in the way we're still. We're always still trying to, like, you know, keep pressing on.

54:53 That's right. That's right. That's what we have to do. That's the point of life, is to keep growing. Don't become stagnant. As long as you're doing that, then that means you still have that beginner mind, and you're able to still learn, so. Yeah. Well, thank you both so much for being here. Thank you.

55:12 Thank you. As well for hosting us. Yeah, absolutely.