Collean Johnson-Andrews

00:03 Hello there. How you doing today?

00:05 Fine. How are you?

00:07 I'm doing well. Thank you so much, Miss Ayanna, for joining me on today. This is Colleen Andrews recording live. I am here with Miss Ayanna Woodard. Did I say that right?

00:18 Yes.

00:19 Okay, perfect. We are both students at Mercer University, and we are here to explore gray living between black and white. Okay. And so, Miss Ayanna what does that topic mean to you? Like, gray living between black and white?

00:37 Well, what it means to me is, you know, we have two different races. We have black and we have white. Well, in between, there's. There's a race. And the reason why it's called gray, because there's no. There's no identity there. There's. There's no color. There's nothing there but empty space, really. So that's what that means to me is, you know, trying to find. Trying to find that. That name, because we've given a name for black and white, but where. What is great, right?

01:17 What is that?

01:18 What is that?

01:18 Right? And, I mean, you and I can relate. You know, we are mixed race Americans, you know, living in this wonderful country that we call America.

01:26 Right, right.

01:27 And I totally agree with you. You know, gray in itself is just really black and white mixed together. You get gray. Yeah, but there's. There's no identity. It's just gray. And we're not people that are gray. You know, you have a lighter skin tone, but we definitely ain't great.

01:44 Right. Different nationalities, different backgrounds, cultures, all mixed. It's a melting pot. We are a melting potential.

01:52 So living between black and white, you know, perspectively saying the gray area, you know, what does that, you know, mean to you? You know, when we're saying living, you know, between black and white, does that, you know, affect you in some type of way? You know, not having an identifier, being, you know, mixed american or gray, you know, not having an identifier, how does that make you feel?

02:19 Well, for me, um, you know, it's frustrating. You know, I feel. You kind of feel, you know, empty. You feel empty because you don't know if there is no substance there when it comes to that. And then when you're living between, you know, two other cultures, substance, they, you know, think about it. They have holidays. They have things to celebrate. They have history, you know, past, present, and future. But what is it that we have?

03:03 Right.

03:03 So that's where the frustration comes in, because what is it that the people in the gray area, what is it that they have? Right, so.

03:13 And you did mention, you know, different cultures. Right. And that's true, you know, mixed background, you know, there are different types of, you know, cultures and, you know, practices or traditions, you know.

03:24 Right.

03:24 I'll go through, you know, what mixed race, you know, do you identify yourself with, you know, being that you are of mixed, you know, heritage?

03:35 Well, on paper, I was always taught to put black, always myself as well, not, you know, because as a child, I remember asking that question, well, what? Even when I was coming up a young adult, I said, what do I put, you know, filling out applications, you know, your first job.

03:56 Right.

03:57 College application.

03:59 Any.

03:59 I remember the first time I filled out a college application and was like, what do I put?

04:05 Right, right.

04:06 And it was my mother.

04:09 It's real difficult to identify, you know, I mean, especially when you have the choose.

04:15 Right. Because are we. Are we just black?

04:19 Right.

04:20 No.

04:20 No, we're not. You're not. And, you know, you kind of mentioned about, you know, growing up. Right. So let's explore that a little bit. So growing up, you know, what reactions have you received, you know, how were you treated, you know, growing up in your environment?

04:37 My earliest memory was elementary school. It was at. Where was I? At Mara Vista Elementary School and northern California. My earliest memory of that is having a teacher. I was in what I want to say, first grade.

05:02 Oh, wow.

05:02 And I remember having a teacher who wouldn't allow children of color to sit with the other children, and specifically myself. They had an area, you know, for the children had. But when it came to me, I had to sit back with the assistant teacher.

05:24 So let me get this right. You specifically, you being a, you know, of a doctor shade than probably the other children that were in the classroom were forced to have different seating arrangements because the color of your skin.

05:38 Yes. And I didn't understand, you know, as a kid, I didn't understand that. Why do I have to say it in the back?

05:45 I want to see parents. Of course.

05:48 Yeah. I see it in the back of the class with the teacher, with the assistant teacher, you know, but for an innocent child, I didn't think about it. I really, you know, I was like, this is fun to sit next to the assistant teacher. I actually, you know, didn't mind it because I thought it was a privilege. It wasn't until I got older and started getting to know who I was that I realized that it was. That was not a privilege. You know, that was. I didn't know that at the time. As a kid, I just thought I was, you know, I get to sit.

06:22 At the assistant teachers desk and, you know, you bring up a wonderful point, you know, in saying that because as children, you know the difference. If we weren't taught the difference, hate is taught. It's not, you know, you're not born with hate in your heart. So, you know, you were, you know, children, especially in your instance, learn that at a, you know, very young age.

06:49 That is right.

06:50 Sorry you had to experience that.

06:52 Mm hmm.

06:53 I mean, how, how did your parents respond, if you don't mind me asking?

06:59 Well, I don't remember at that time. Um, like, my mother responded, because I don't even remember if I really, I don't told her, you know, later on, and she wasn't happy with it. But the time that I do remember her saying something about it was when I was in fourth grade.

07:20 Okay.

07:21 It's still in northern California. I was in fourth grade, and this time it's an elementary. And I've had two teachers, Miss man and Miss Draper. And my age. For me to remember.

07:38 It had to be something.

07:40 Yes. And this because I remember asking, we used to have bake sales at school.

07:45 Okay.

07:46 And I wanted to be a part of the bake sale.

07:48 Of course. Yeah.

07:50 And I want to be a part of it. And I was told, no, no, I couldn't be a part of it. And I was the quiet. I wasn't, you know, defining school. I was very quiet. I did my work. I never got in trouble.

08:06 Did they tell you at that point why you couldn't participate?

08:10 It was just, I asked why. It was just a no. No. Well, maybe next time. It was always, maybe next time. And, you know, I was like, is it me? What am I? You know, as a kid, I'm going, what am I doing wrong? I'm a good, you know, I'm a good girl. I go to school every day. I do my homework. I turn it in on time. I did pretty well in school, so why am I not allowed? And then I started looking at the other children, because by then, I'm in fourth grade, so I'm kind of aware of who I am at that.

08:42 I.

08:42 At that time, I'm growing into my identity, right, of who I was. So at that time, I'm feeling more, why am I not being accepted? So I'm looking at the children who is participating? I said, no one's black. No one's black. And is it. Or in. No one's mixed. You know, there was no one of color. And for me at the time, you know, identifying as black, because that's what I was taught. Nobody's black.

09:13 I mean, think that all this happened to you as a child, right? I mean, I'm sure as you, you know, grew older, there are more examples that we can address, talk about, you know, but, you know, has your multi, you know, racial identity been an important factor to you, especially after you realize what those experiences were really about?

09:35 Yes. And the reason why is because when I'm talking to people and even if they're, even if they're not a mixed race and when I'm talking to white people, black people, I can help them see both sides. Because you have. Racism exists. Black people, white people, it exists. You know, we, you know, sometimes you're not comfortable with the other race. And I can be the advocate to say, wait a minute. Let me tell you exactly how this person may feel or that person may feel their views on it because people may not know and because we are, you know, mixed race, we can identify with them and we can talk to them and say, okay, well, identify you with you in this way, you know, and then we can advocate for them, for the other side. This is what, this is really how they feel, you know, about, you know, whatever subject it is. So it kind of being that person to connect, bring them together.

10:35 I like how you said that. Right? Bringing that gray, a brighter light. You know, it's like, you know, I'm not either or. I'm right here in the middle. And I have experienced, you know, I.

10:50 Can help you understand their perspective, you know, and that's the good thing about it, being able to do that.

10:56 You feel comfortable when people come to you and talk to you about those things. Yeah.

11:05 I'm not offended. I'm actually open to it because I want people. I'm on understanding. I'm, in order to understand who I am, I have to understand who everyone else is. And in order for them to understand me, they have to understand both sides.

11:21 That's right. I agree with you. Absolutely. I mean, have you ever felt pressured, you know, to choose the side, you know, to be, you know, you know, what experience are you willing to share with us?

11:37 Well, I grew up in, you know, my family, you know, a lot, majority of them are darker skinned, so I have a lot of darker skinned family members. So choosing a side, you know, was more of like, okay, if I don't identify with them, whose blood family, then who do I identify with? So you kind of had, you know, growing up, you have to choose all black there. Look at my cousins. Look at my, you know.

12:03 Yeah, yeah. I believe that you are forced to choose you know, who you are going to identify with. But let's let, okay, let's explore that.

12:11 And even on paper, yeah, think about that. And then how society views us, we have to identify. It's like, you know, think about it. When you, like, I say, like, you know, for applications, things of that nature, when other people look at us, then automatically, you know that the way you talk, the way you carry yourself, your features, even on your lighter skin, your lighter complexion, you're still.

12:42 Right. It's ironic that you say that because, you know, me being a lighter skinned African American, right? You know, if I'm a region to where there's not a lot of sun, I'm going to a lighter, you know? But if that has a lot of sun, then my, my complexion changes, you know, I mean, and so it's just like, I understand what you're saying, but, you know, even as children, how do we choose? Like, you know, even as young adults or, you know, mature adults, we have to choose.

13:17 And that's sad because we should, we should not have to choose. We should have, you know, we should have a voice, you know, we should have a platform. We should have a, not, like, you know, a name. Can you think about. Think about growing up an orphan child with no identity, no name, not knowing who you. Not knowing who you are, where you're from. So you, it's kind of like that, you know, where you feel orphan compared to everyone else who has an identity, you know, who can relate to others. We have to relate differently.

13:53 Right, right. And I truly agree with you, you know, I mean, our perspective is what matters, you know, to us. But if we want our perspective to matter to others, we have to voice that opinion. Right. You know? So let me ask you this. You know, we're talking about the gray, right? The black and the white. And there is this, you know, term that is used for mixed race Americans, right? We're normally called mulatto.

14:21 Right.

14:26 So no feel about, you know, as a mixed race american, you know? Do you consider yourself mulatto? You know? Okay.

14:35 I don't, um, that time I actually grew up and I never really liked the term to me was such a derogatory, obviously. I've always felt like, you know, it's like being called a name. What if you call a little person, a person? A midget.

14:52 Right, right.

14:53 Like the n word, you know, it's, it's like that, you know, because, you know, it is, it doesn't give us value.

15:06 It does not. Right.

15:08 Value. And that's what I take from it. Not getting that value, not that respect level that everyone else gets. You don't get that.

15:20 I mean, I get that a lot as well. I get mulatto, light skin, you know, light bright, light bulb, whatever. You know what I mean? You know, that word. You know, Melanie. Okay, so the word in itself is a racial slur. That is a derogatory, you know, term for people of italian descent. So it's like, not all mixed people are italian. So it's just. So the. The term is believed to be, you know, a corruption of the italian word malto. M a L T o, which means malt, right? And it's actually a grain that is used to make beer. You know what I'm saying? So when, you know, the italian immigrants, you know, they were majority in the brewing industry, right? And so that's where they came up with that term. You know, other people, you know, they wanted to be mean or, you know, shout out something or what have you, you know, but that is insane. You know, it's just like. It seems as if that's the category that we've been just kind of thrown into, right? But, you know, ignorance is bliss, right? So if we're not knowledgeable and understandable of where these terms come from, you know, we can't, you know, really fight for, you know, our cause. And so that leads me up to my next question. You know, do you have a fight in you for a cause?

17:00 Yes and no.

17:02 Okay, that's fair.

17:03 Yes, because I feel like we should be heard. I feel like there's cause for us to be heard. I feel like it's about time that we speak for ourselves and not allow others to speak for us. Because through history, that's what's been happening. You know, we've allowed others to tell us who we are. They have spoken for us, know, in the sense that the backlash we're gonna get from it, you know, oh, no. That one drop. You know, black blood. If your ancestors, you know, are from Africa, they're your. You just have the slightest bit of it. That's who you are. So that's where the no comes from.

17:55 I mean, you know, our country, you know, is very well known for, you know, its violence and its aggression towards racism, right? And so, you know, I know through, you know, many trailblazers and, you know, you know, individuals that fought for peace, you know, that was one of their main factors. But at the same time, you know, if we are proud of who we are and we're not of our identity, you know, we should not have that fear in our heart, speak up for our rights. And in speaking of rights, you know, even if, you know, you're able to fight for an identity, you know, do you feel that you should have specific rights because you're, you know, a mixed race american, you know, or are you just fighting for an identity, you know, within our governmental system?

18:45 I think it's a mixture of both. I think that we should have the right to have that have identity. I think when we fight, we fight for humanity because we. We're all. We are of many cultures, we are of many races, which is a good thing. It is, because we are the human race. And I think that's, for me, that opens up for everybody. I think we, you know, there's where that. That's where that one is come being. We are one race, the human race, because we have. We have such a unique background.

19:28 Mean, earlier, a little bit earlier, you were talking about, you know, features, you know, identify with features and how people identify us through our features. Right. So as a mixed race american, you know, what features do you still stand out being mixed race?

19:49 It's the light skin, the curly hair, because a lot of mixed, mixed people have what's called a mixture of both, you know, african and, I guess, european. Whatever you mix with, we have, we come up with curly hair.

20:04 Yep. And I agree, you know. You know, when I was growing up, it was called, you got that good hair.

20:10 Right?

20:18 What is good hair? I mean, I heard that mind, you got that good hair. What.

20:23 What is that?

20:25 It's curly and it's not hair.

20:28 Everybody, you know, has their own uniqueness. Everybody has hair. What is good hair? You know, if you can style it and put it in a poly, you can style your hair. Make.

20:39 That's good hair to me, just hair. Right. But, you know, and it's like you were talking about, you know, being identified with features. So, you know, commonly, you know, majority, you know, features, you know, that are on an african American and a occasion, they're like two different spectrums. You know, eye color is different, you know, hair texture is different, you know, even the shaping of our ears, our eyes, our high cheekbones, you know, those kind of things. But when you look at those particular races individually, right? Look at you.

21:11 Mm hmm.

21:12 I don't fit on either one.

21:15 Right.

21:15 Imagine y'all. So I don't fit nowhere.

21:19 Right?

21:20 And again, that's that, you know, that's the purpose of what we're doing. You know, why we're here today exploring these options and these ideas, you know, and again, I agree with you. We're not asking for, you know, anything, you know, specific. You know, we just want to know, you know, that one. We're not a minority. We are not minorities. We're a majority.

21:44 Right.

21:45 You know, and I agree with you as far as the fear factor, you know, we should not have to experience fear when we're fighting for our just cause. Like I was saying, you know, it is just our proven history that when you make a stand, you know, you may not be standing too much longer.

22:03 Right.

22:03 They're coming to get you. Why is that? Why is that? I just don't get it. You know, you. You've definitely shared a couple experiences when you were a kid.

22:16 Right, right.

22:17 So let's kind of revisit that a little bit. All right, so, you know, you had referenced different cultures beliefs and, you know, tradition ceremonies, you know, what's specific in your family, you know, if you don't mind speaking about that, being that you aren't mixed heritage. You know, what specifically, you know, can you remember, you know, maybe from both cultures or maybe just one? Or was it some new traditions your family made up that?

22:46 Well, I remember, well, multicultural day. My mother was big on going to the festivals, multicultural festivals. So that's one thing that we've done. We've never, like I said, we've only identified as black growing up. That was our identity. But the way to get around it was multicultural festivals going today, seeing other ways, being around other people of different nationalities, not just color, you know? So that was my earliest exposure to it, you know, from. And I remember as far as elementary.

23:24 School.

23:27 Going all the time, every year that they had it, we were there. And just her talking about other cultures and accepting other people for who they were. And that's something that I grew up with. All nationalities, you know, I was never minded. And it's because of her belief in humanity and in loving and embracing people.

23:51 Yes.

23:51 For who they are. That's what made me, you know, you know, that's what molded my beliefs today.

23:58 So do you think because, you know, you and I, you know, many other Americans were raised in that type of environment to where, you know, race really wasn't a factor, you know, did that, you know, kind of carry over with your family, you know, and how you raised your children? And if so, what was the huge factor in that? I.

24:19 Well, yes, for me, what raising my girls was teaching them, you know, number one, who. Who they are, where they come from. That was important because I didn't get that growing up. So I wanted them to know who they are, where they from, where they come from, and accepting of everybody, being accepted of everyone. Now, what I have found difficult as they grew up is them accepting everybody. And it's because when we moving here, I think moving to Georgia, and they open up their eyes to racism. And this is something that back in California, we're not really taught much about. We're not really taught about what went on down south. Brushed under the rug a little bit.

25:10 Mm hmm. You see, I'm a northerner, and so, you know, it was touched on, you know, those major holidays, you know.

25:17 Yeah.

25:18 But February, Luther King Day, you know, all these kind of things. But even being from the north, you know, race, like you're saying, just really wasn't, you know, at least in the area that I was raised in, you know, wasn't the biggest a factor, you know? But there are, like you said, in the south, it's huge right. This day. It's like, you know, we both live in Georgia, you know, so it's just like our different communities. And, you know, I live in a very rural area. You know, neighbors are not that close. You know, I might as well not even have neighbors because they don't even.

25:51 Right with my girls. And for them, it's like I'm noticing that they questioned, you know, other nationalities are not being comfortable with everyone. And so, but I won't teach them that. No, be comfortable with everybody, be accepting of everybody. And I noticed that, you know, down south, and I think that's where they're getting it from. It's just seeing what black people went through. And I think that's how, you know, has a quite profound effect on, don't.

26:26 Get me wrong, I believe that history is very important, you know, very, very important. And, you know, it, it's a touchy subject. Like I said, when it comes to children one and two, you know, transitions. Transitions are very, very difficult a little bit. So, you know, as you were talking about your girls, right. You know, the expectations, right. Going from one culture to another, there's culture shock, right? So now that the children are, you know, in the southern tier, do they find that it's difficult for them to want, identify with who they are? But then also, you know, peer pressure, you know, and when that cultural traditional shot, you know, that transitional shock, it can be very challenging. Are they having a hard time like, you know, relating or, you know, associating with one group or another? You know, are the clothes that they wear, you know, type of shoes that they have on? Is that still a factor?

27:29 Oh, yeah, very much. Very much. Yeah. Because I noticed that, you know, the group, their peers, you know, I don't see children of a different race. You know, other cultures is more black. And I think it has to do with environment. I think it has to do with, you know, the area. Like I said, environment, school system, what they've been taught in schools. I think educators play a huge part in that. Like I said, from my own personal experience, I think that, you know, in this school, it should have been brought up more, and it doesn't. For me, it didn't matter if, you know, you go to a predominantly black or predominantly white people exist. History exists. So why not teach them about other cultures? Why not teach them to be accepting? And that's what I think is missing, and that's what I think my children have missed in schools, is teaching to be accepting of everybody, because it's not. It's just really. And as an educator myself, it's not done. And it's not done well, I won't say it's not done. I will say that it's not done enough.

28:45 Right. Right. You know, and then when it is done, you know, on the news, we hear so much negative, you know, so much violence, so much killing, and, you know, just, oh, gosh, sometimes I hate to turn on the news, but if we can hear more positive influences, you know, about educators, about, you know, people that are comfortable in their own skin, that are positive, encouraging, not only you adults, but you, you know, to respect themselves, to know who they are, to identify, you know, with themselves. Not necessarily, you know, do you feel it? It's like, really important to identify with a group?

29:27 Well, in a sense, because I think that we, we always grow up, you know, you have to identify with this or that. And in order, we. So as people, we want to feel accepted. So in order to feel accepted, then we must identify with. We must identify with something. Right.

29:49 Right.

29:50 That's where the identity comes in at. What are we identify with?

29:54 And it's kind of funny that you see it in that manner because, you know, my sister and I, you know, come from the same family line in, but she chose to hang out more with, you know, her white friends. I chose more of the african american black crop, you know, and I just felt more accepted in that group, you know, being with the younger black kids. But my sister, she didn't feel that way. She didn't feel accepted by of the black children, you know? And like you're saying, you know, with your children being in school, you know, in the south, you know, they're kind of gravitating towards, you know.

30:36 And I did it, and that's what I was teaching them. Who my friends were in school was everybody I was friends with, all nationalities. And because my mother was such an advocate for accepting of people, you know, based on who they are, not where they come from, not their background of color, no, who they are and how they treat you. So for them not seeing that, you know, it kind of bothers me a little bit because I grew up, my friends were from all walks of life. Everybody didn't matter to me.

31:13 I mean, acceptance is huge, right? All want to be accepted, whether we kind of want to admit it or not, right? Acceptance is important in having an identity.

31:23 So that's where that group identify with a group comes in to feel, you know, accepting. That's where that comes in. That's where, you know, to feel accepted to, you know, have a home.

31:39 Right.

31:40 Have a place. Yeah. So if we don't have that, then what do we have? If we don't identify with the group, we don't. We don't have that, you know, identification. What do we have? What do we. What do we have?

31:59 That's a great question, you know, and even throughout this assignment, I have pondered that myself, you know, why having anything, why is that important? Why should that even matter? But as we're both saying, you know, and you brought wonderful points, you know, in regards to identification, you know, I mean, I know it would be a challenge for our government to kind of separate, you know, because they may have to do. You know, it's like someone can be, you know, Asian and Italian. How would you identify that? Would you be an I, you know, Italian, you know, Asian American. Like, should we put more acronyms and nouns on these long, already overloaded words? Like, or, you know, could it be, you know, again, I truly feel that we're not a minority. We're a majority. And so, you know, it's just like, how would they name us? How. You know, how could they categorize that?

32:59 Right.

33:00 You know, I don't even believe that politically or within our government, it's really that important.

33:05 Mm hmm. It's not because is it brought up? No, no, it's not at all. So it's. It's not important. And that's why it takes people like us to make it important, you know, to give it a voice, because we don't have one yet. I.

33:26 Right.

33:26 We don't have a voice yet. So it takes people like us. It takes situations like this, it takes classes like this. Teachers, the, you know, like the one we have to help us give, you know, to give us a voice, give us a platform to make, you know, make people aware of what's happening within their own world, in their society, what's happening. We think about all the other things like, you know, drugs and violence. But what about identity? What about that?

33:57 You know, that's hilarious. You say that because even drugs have a name. Heroin, crack cocaine, right?

34:03 Alcoholism.

34:04 You know, everything has an identity. Even with an identity, there's another identity, you know? So it's just like, we have nothing to stand on. And it, like you're saying it's like, pick one. Choose one. Who can do that? You know, why should I have to do that? You know, and I think politically, you know, you know, based off of our history, you know, within the last few years, you know, people's perspective.

34:30 Right.

34:32 You know, identity means is so different, you know, it could be eons before we get on the same page, if we ever do get on the same page. But I agree, very, very important, you know, not only for, you know, yourself and me, you know, our generations that are coming behind us, you know, and like you're saying, don't forget the future. I mean, the past. The past is very important, you know, without our past, we would not have a future. So, you know, that's right.

35:02 But that's. That's the ticket. You know, that's that train ride time. That's the ticket. That's how we get there. That's. And then, you know, embracing that and bringing it forward, telling, you know, our stories, you know, our history in. And I think for me, it should be put in history books, put in education. It should be brought to light in a way that, okay, yet there are old. We have african mix. We have this, we have that. Oh, but we have them, too. You know, it should be put in books and education. It should be taught. It should be a lesson on it.

35:46 I agree. I agree. You know, definitely, you know, and it definitely has been my pleasure to have you here, you know, talking with you about, you know, identity and where we are between that gray and that black and that white, you know, one final question for you. What do you hope people understand about biracial, multiracial experiences in America today? If you can leave something for those that may have the same concerns that we do, you know, and things that you have expressed today, what would you want them to understand?

36:19 That there are others out there, that they're not alone, that they're not alone in fighting for it. To have an identity, to have a voice, to stay strong, to stay uplifted and bring awareness, bring it to light. And I say by any means necessary, not being afraid to be outspoken and not being afraid to reach out to other people, create this platform so that others, our generation, our children's generation and the next generation, you know, know who they are and have an identity. It may not happen today, but it will happen.

37:09 It will happen. And, you know, and I think, you know, awareness, you know, talking about it, you know, bringing it to the forefront. You know, you and I have talked before. You know, there's no, to my understanding, no organization or, you know, I'm sure there are plenty out there on social media platforms that are speaking about this issue. You know, are you familiar with anything that you can share with, you know, the people? Have you done any research? Because honestly, I have not.

37:36 No, I'm done. I'm done. I've looked up some stuff. It's not anything really. It's not anything out there. And I think this is where we can start. So, you know, if it's not us, maybe somebody else will start you, you know, the gray area. You know, maybe someone will start that.

37:54 I truly agree with you. Well, thank you again, so, Miss Ayanna, for joining me and having this wonderful conversation. It has been my pleasure, and we'll talk with you soon.