Contessa Trujillo and Joleen Montoya Dye

[00:02] CONTESSA TRUJILLO: Awesome. My name is Contessa Trujillo. I just turned 40 a few days ago. Today is March 19, 2023. We are in our beloved hometown of Taos, New Mexico, and I am going to be interviewing with Joleen Montoya Dye, my sister, God, sister, first cousin, friend.

[00:24] JOLEEN MONTOYA DYE: My name is Joleen Montoya, and I'm 45. And same date, March 19, 2023, in Taos, New Mexico. Interviewing with Contessa Trujillo, my sister and my cousin and my friend and my everything.

[00:50] CONTESSA TRUJILLO: Have you experienced any miracles?

[00:55] JOLEEN MONTOYA DYE: Oh, I want to say yes. And I also. I guess I'm wondering what defines a miracle, because I think it's pretty miraculous to wake up every morning and just experience this life and this body and all my people and kind of the magic that happens in relationships and in nature. So that all feels pretty miraculous. And I do feel, I don't know, like, there's a certain, like, serendipity or, like, synchronicity that happens sometimes that feels really magical in terms of, like, what keeps appearing or, like, the coincidences that happen. So I think when you asked me that, it sounded like this huge event, but really probably those things happen every day.

[02:04] CONTESSA TRUJILLO: Yeah.

[02:05] JOLEEN MONTOYA DYE: How about you?

[02:06] CONTESSA TRUJILLO: Oh, man. I felt similarly, and I felt like maybe that question would go in a direction that was more related to, like, a specific happenstance. And I think growing up here, we grew up with so much, like, magical realism. And so I think that there's elements of our lives and experiences in Taos that are really connected to nature but also really connected to culture. And, you know, these stories of, like, La Llorona and, like, experiencing supernatural things or I. Things that are, like, kind of meant. I don't know, like, meant to be or maybe, like, just so integrated and, like, inherent to how we experience life or how we grew up with storytelling. And, I don't know, these kind of, like, magical, like, just ways of existing and experiencing that. And it's interesting because I think we all grew up really close to feeling, like, energies or entities and very close to one another, but also through that, very close to our ancestral beings in history and really living with that. And so I don't know. It's been interesting, I think, living in grandma and grandpa's house because there's just so much energy there, and I'm moving a lot of those things. And sometimes I've been noticing that I've been feeling kind of, like, heavy or different, and I think it's because I'm shaking up a lot of that stuff, and I need to cleanse it. But I don't know. Yeah, I think it's a lot of those little daily things that we. I don't know, sometimes maybe take for granted, but I think that we just kind of grew up living with and, like, coexisting with.

[04:02] JOLEEN MONTOYA DYE: Yeah, I think that was the other place I was headed with it, too, is the miracles I think of are all more sort of like, I don't know what the right language is, but, like, kind of psychic experiences in terms of feeling like something's going to happen and then it does. Or, like, feeling kind of having confirmation of that.

[04:28] CONTESSA TRUJILLO: Mm hmm. Yeah, I think so, too. It's interesting. And it's interesting, I think, to experience that here and being really in it here, but also, like, kind of carrying that with me wherever I've lived. Also in a way that feels really different. I've been thinking a lot about just, like, how you orbit, like, your environment or your relationships and how much of that is so based on where you are and the pieces that you carry with you and, like, the identity that you keep or choose for yourself based on where you're at and how you exist in that place and, like, the pieces that really ground you or, like, bring you back to center. And. I don't know. It's interesting. It's kind of been, like, such a frame of mind I've been in lately that I'm trying to tease out or figure out because I feel like I'm the same person, but I feel very different based on where I'm at and how I orbit that space because of.

[05:37] JOLEEN MONTOYA DYE: The chemistry or the things that are awakened in you by the people who are there or the environment.

[05:45] CONTESSA TRUJILLO: Totally. And I think it is all of those things, like, who you visit with and the type of conversations you have and the places you go for coffee and the people you run into and.

[05:55] JOLEEN MONTOYA DYE: Like, the rhythm of the place that you're living in.

[05:58] CONTESSA TRUJILLO: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And how it syncs differently or. Yeah. Like, you carry different parts of you.

[06:05] JOLEEN MONTOYA DYE: Do you think that's also, though, this is kind of, like, contrary to that, but this idea that, like, whoever you were when you were really young, child, like, before you were, like, as shaped by everything that that also is, like, carried with you. And that, like, no matter how old you get, like, no matter how old I am, I will still always be, like, the seven year old. You know what I mean? Like, that is, like, the true essence of who I am and who I bring with me through every age with all of this accumulated other stuff. But do you feel like that feels strong for you?

[06:51] CONTESSA TRUJILLO: I think that's really a curious question. I feel like. I think it depends because based on the environment I'm in or whoever I'm talking to, like, the context or the narrative of who I am or how I exist to those people changes. It doesn't change me at the core, but it changes, I think maybe, like, the ways in which people see me or the ways in which that interacts. Because, like, when I'm out of town and I'm visiting with friends from San Francisco and we were so close in, tight knit and lived this life in this period of time, like, I still, like. I do. I think that I am my authentic self in all of those settings. But being back home, it's like, you know, like, it's different being, like, Nina's goddaughter or like, my mom's daughter, my dad's daughter. Like, it's different being that person in this context. And I feel. I don't know. And I think I've done a really good job of curating such a solid group of friends and loved ones. And so I do feel like I can be, like, my most vulnerable true self in those environments. And I work really hard, I think, to do that. But, yeah, I don't know. I think I'm getting away from the question. But it's interesting because when you asked that, I thought about family members and people who, in my mind will. When I think of them, I always think of their five year old self or this experience that just sticks with me at the core of who this person is, who has blossomed into a beautiful young teenager now. But, like, I always see this five year old in my head. And so it's interesting to consider that in the reverse. I don't know.

[08:45] JOLEEN MONTOYA DYE: Yeah, and, like, I think just having had a birthday, do you think? Because I always kind of am sort of boggled by the fact that, like, just time and age are such a strange thing. Like, there were these ideas of what you thought it would be like to be a certain age, but really, I still feel, like often these other. I don't know. It doesn't change. Like, none of that changes. Like, the. What's going on inside doesn't change.

[09:30] CONTESSA TRUJILLO: Yeah, that's. I don't know. That's so gnarly and it hits. It's so weird. Like, I'm still wrapping my brain around being, like, turning 40 on Wednesday, and I never was afraid of being old. Like, I feel like I'm perpetually 28. I feel like I've lived enough and experienced enough to be good, to hold my own in terms of this is who I am and this is my core and I feel good about that solidity. And having experienced things and been through things, I feel grown in that way, but I don't feel 40 at all in the sense that I'm nowhere close to where I thought that I would be. And it's so strange how so much of that is where does this narrative come from? Or where does this construct come from? Because, like, life kind of just happens and you, like, show up to it. And I still feel, like at 28, like, after having, like, enough life experience to, like, be on my own and experience new places and. And, like, feel really solid in my ability to provide for myself in the world, wherever that may be. Like, I still have that bit of hope and excitement about, like, I could still do whatever I want and I still, like, very much feel like that. But I think at this juncture it's interesting because I'm just, like, I'm at a place where I've traveled the world and I've lived in really amazing, exciting cities and I've had this really, like, bountiful life and these amazing, like, relationships and experiences. And it's so beautiful to be able to, like, be at a point where, like, I'm ready to be home and I'm ready to really, like, root reroute and, like, be here on, like, my own terms. But it's also just really strange to not to just, like, have it be, like, me in the world, you know? But yeah.

[11:45] JOLEEN MONTOYA DYE: Yeah, I think I've been thinking about that in the last several years about just, like, how much pain is caused and, like, unnecessary pain and grief that every single person has in regard to, like, the edge of what we've been told is, like, a typical experience in whatever domain you're talking about. And then what we all truly live and each one of us has that chasm in some way, you know, like, whether it's relationships or family or, like, in my case, like, what raising kids would be. Like, what I thought, like, a totally normative, like, typical experience would be, and then what it has been. But really, like, the pain isn't from having the atypical experience. The pain is from, like, being sold that it should have been this typical thing that, like, pretty much nobody has that in every area. But it's a hard one to get past, I think, because I don't know, even though you know that rationally, it's just so hard not to, like, well, know another way you know, like, that's the way we've been taught to do these things. And so it's hard to, like, really find peace with, like, that's not my path, and that's okay. And, like, there's beauty in that.

[13:18] CONTESSA TRUJILLO: Yeah, totally. And I think to, like, embrace that, because I feel like, in a lot of ways, we've lived very atypical lives or, like, made very, like, atypical choices. And so in the sense that we've just carved our own paths, I know we were the first to ever really leave Taos and to go away to school and to be in a completely foreign environment without the community that we're so used to having support us and to lean on. And I think for me, it was hard to. And thank God I had you. But outside of that, I didn't have many people who I could really talk to who had experienced, like, really feeling far away or feeling, like I felt like such an anomaly in many of the places that I was and having to really think about, like, who I was and how I existed in the world and what is it that makes me happy or excites me or brings me joy or sparks me and, like, seeking that in and of myself, like, outside of a context of, like, this is what you do now, and then you do this, and this is. And in a lot of ways, too, I followed a very traditional path in terms of, you graduate from high school and then you go away to college and then you have this job or you do these things. And I think there's also a lot of pain that comes from these narratives that if you follow this path or you do these things, you'll end up, like, being successful. By whose terms? And by, like, whatever that means and looks like. And so, you know, in a lot of ways, I think I, like, I did for sure. Like, I've made these really big, guttural decisions where I just kind of leaped and was, like, my gut was like, leap, and we'll see what happens. And I did that in a way that felt really good in terms of, like, if it doesn't work out, I know that I, like, showed up, and I showed up fully and I tried, and that wasn't meant for me, which is very non traditional in ways, but in a lot of ways, I did follow. This is what you do next, and then this is what you do, and you work really hard, and then you end up having the life of your dreams. And it's interesting because who's the life of whose dreams and by what standards and what does that mean and look, like. And feel, like, in pursuing that in and of myself, it's just been really interesting because I've had all these great experiences, but, yeah. Like, there is that pain with, like, I'm not where I'm supposed to be, which is all. And I did all the things. Yeah, totally.

[16:06] JOLEEN MONTOYA DYE: Yeah. And it can cause, like, so much pain, even though it's, like, this artificial thing.

[16:13] CONTESSA TRUJILLO: Yeah. And where did it come from? Like, did this, like, narrative come from movies? Did it come from. And I think I. I mean, in everything, right. It comes from your whole environment, but, yeah. Like, we grew up with people who had these careers and then, like. Or, you know, had these lives, and they grew up together, and then they got married and then they had kids, and they've had, you know, like, it's a very, like, this is what you do, and this is, like, what you stand by. And then also for myself, really thinking about, like, what does make me happy or even being in situations where I, like, thought that that was what would make me happy or feel fulfilled and still questioning or seeking, I don't know. I wish there was more conversation around people exploring that a bit more and dedicating time and energy to, I don't know, me being more present and really living a fulfilling life in the moment.

[17:12] JOLEEN MONTOYA DYE: Mm hmm. I think that really has to happen individually, because otherwise it's, like, still somebody else's version of what is, like, a meaningful life or a successful life. I felt that, like, during the pandemic, a lot of. Well, I mean, we're still in the pandemic, but, like, I. When we were all at home, like, hunkering down and doing all the things, like, from my coffee, I mean, my dining table, and just how wacky it was that I was, like, always keeping my kids at bay so I could, like, do these things that I was supposed to be doing. And even though, like, the work was meaningful to me and I was grateful and, like, invested in it, it still felt totally out of alignment that, like, this is where I was investing my time and energy and then, like, putting my kids on pause and myself on pause and, like, it just felt wrong to me, but it gave me, like, time to it. Like, that whole experience just gave me pause and, like, a reason to notice it in a, like, more alarming way. Like, I had noticed it and been aware of it, but it. It felt more urgent, right. To, like, start to make some changes, to align things in a different way. Like, I felt really clear. Like, I didn't want to go back to what was happening before we were all shut down. And I've been really trying to, like, make my schedule more reflective of, like, what I value most. And, like, make sure that's, like, those are the biggest stones filling up the day. And then other things come and fill in afterward. But it does feel like a, like, stepping out somehow or, like, I don't know how to describe it in relation to what you're talking about with, like, just not going along with, like, somebody else's. Like, it's defined, I think, by us. Like, each person has their own map of what that looks like.

[19:47] CONTESSA TRUJILLO: I get that. And, like, also the idea of being an active participant in your own life because, yeah, I feel like we get into these rhythms where we. This is just kind of how we operate and what we do, and we get up and we get coffee, and then we go into the office or the hypothetical office, and, you know, we carve out these windows of time to do these things. And I know we've talked about this before, too, where it's, like, sometimes at the end of the day, you get home and you're so drained that, like, your loved ones, like, end up getting, like, whatever's left over instead of, like, the juiciest, most present version of you. And I think for sure the pandemic did that in terms of, it's kind of, like, just holds up a mirror to how are you spending your time and energy, and especially when it's confined to one space and you really have to look at it and chunk it out. And, yeah, I remember that, like, just not feeling great and really thinking about, like, how do we spend our time and our energy? And are we, like, living our lives in ways that we can feel good about at the end of it? Like, how are we spending our time and energy? And I felt like that even pre pandemic when I got back from Sweden because, just, like, the priorities and lifestyles there as a culture were such a vast contrast to here. And I remember having physical palpable anxiety coming back because I just was not ready to jump back into this rat race and this do more faster, more efficiently. And even the conversation of, how was your day? And it was like, oh, it was a productive day. And what defines productive? And, like, how are we spending our time? And if we're, like, defining our day by being productive, like, it's just, like, it feels gross and weird and, like, really disconnected and I don't know. I think growing up here, a lot of our family, like, grew up really simply and, like, life was hard, but, you know, they had animals, they had outhouses, they had twelve kids to feed and manage and, like, work through. And it's been interesting even being in Grandma and Grandpa's house again, because I'm like, how on earth did they have how many kids at any point in time in this space? And I was really looking forward to coming back and living more simply and in that intention. I'm also really trying to shake this, like, I've always done nonprofit, like, community based work, but in cities, you also still. It functions, like, kind of corporately in certain ways where there's still deliverables and there's expectations, and you function in a certain way, and you have meetings and. And I'm really trying to, like, get out of this, like, I don't know, this, like, way of existing that I was really hoping to, like, connect more and being back home, but instead, I'm, like, bringing all of, like, this stuff is, like, spilling over, and I don't know how to, like, chunk it out hard.

[23:08] JOLEEN MONTOYA DYE: Unlearning, I think.

[23:10] CONTESSA TRUJILLO: Mm hmm.

[23:11] JOLEEN MONTOYA DYE: Yeah, yeah. I felt what you were saying about, like, loved ones getting the drugs, like, after a day of putting your energy into work or whatever, I feel that so strongly, but also feel that in terms of myself, like, I was not, like, it's been work to, like, save a lot of the good energy and space and, like, goodness for my own self first, too.

[23:56] CONTESSA TRUJILLO: Yeah, that's interesting, too. Like, that whole concept, too, of, like, and you can't. You can't take care of other people if you don't take care of yourself. You can't advocate for other people if you don't advocate for yourself. And I can't speak to that in terms of being a mother, but I can only imagine what that feels like. And especially, I think, coming from a culture where you're really praised on, like, giving so much of yourself and being so, like, selfless and generous and, like. And to a fault to where people aren't. They're not. I don't know, like, there's, like, this martyrdom that comes with it and this, like, and I'm not sure. Like, sometimes it feels, like, spiritual in terms of just, like, the background and, like, the being so steeped in, like, catholicism and, you know, the Virgin Mary and, like, grandma was so, she was a guadalupana and she was so devout and so selfless, and we all, like, kind of learned that. And, like, unlearning that in ways that, like, feel good and not guilty is really challenging, but, yeah, like, culturally and.

[25:17] JOLEEN MONTOYA DYE: Then on, like, a grander societal level. I think there's so many layers to that. And I'm. Yeah, like, I just, I keep just thinking, like, me first and not, like, in a grand way, like, but just because if I do that, then I can show up in a more loving, generous, like, of service way rather than, like, a resentful, depleted way. And I'm just meaning, like, super simple things like, making sure that, like, I don't know, I get enough movement in or, like, I'm actually eating meals or, like, those aren't the first things to get thrown out the window when things get hairy in terms of, like, schedules or, but just really foundational, like, nourishment pieces that can set me up in a good way but also just the space. Like, the space feels really important to me to have enough air to feel like a creative person who's noticing things and who's living and not just kind of managing the day to day.

[26:33] CONTESSA TRUJILLO: Yeah, that's interesting in terms of I feel that and I recognize that because I get so consumed by whatever it is that I'm doing that I will forget to eat. And I'm like, oh, it's. I'm going to check my email really quick and do a cursory glance. And then before I know it, it's, like, 03:00 and I haven't eaten or I've not clearly been drinking enough water or, you know, it's, like, very, like, basic things that I, too, am trying to really bring to the forefront and also, like, really in thinking about, like, I'm very stubborn or rebellious against, like, having a routine. And so I'm trying to, like, change my frame of mind from, like, it being, like, a routine, like, a self care routine, which, you know, it self care. It's, like, its own whole, like, thing. But, like, really to thinking about it more in terms of, like, ritual of, like, what is your morning ritual? What is, you know, and, like, what are the things that you do that, like, feel yummy and get you kind of, like, geared up and excited for the day and the, like, I really love lazy days, like, so much, and so I tend to try and, like, really consolidate as much as I can so that I can have, like, days where I really don't have anything to do. But I need to figure out ways to make the, like, days. I need to be productive, like, a little more, like, present filled and, like, yummy.

[28:00] JOLEEN MONTOYA DYE: Just bearing down and getting through. I do that, too.

[28:03] CONTESSA TRUJILLO: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't. I'm, like, working on it, but if anyone has any pointers.

[28:09] JOLEEN MONTOYA DYE: I don't. I want to ask you some of these questions. Cause, oh, they're all so good. I think I'm a. The first one. Can you tell me about the person who's been kindest to you in your life?

[28:37] CONTESSA TRUJILLO: I'm just gonna cry the whole time. Oh, man. It's funny to, like, think about these big things in more direct ways. Like. Like, you were, by far, by, like, person of all people. And, like, I've always felt. I've always felt so, like, seen by you ever since I was little. And I've always just been so grateful for that because I think it's, like, it's hard. We're five years apart, and I'm used to being the little cousin that always just wants to hang out with the older cousins and be a part of that. And I've gone through so many phases in my life, and regardless of what I was going through or the, like, identity crises I was facing, like, you always saw me so clearly and were just, like, so nurturing and present, and it always just felt like. I just always felt, like, safe and important in the world because of you.

[30:25] JOLEEN MONTOYA DYE: Oh, that's so nice. Thank you.

[30:29] CONTESSA TRUJILLO: You're welcome. Yeah, I feel like it's. It's so foundational, too. Like, growing up as, like, I don't know, just, like, it's a little person, and it's hard to recall being a child, you know? I think that there are, like, these spurts of memories or people or, like, experiences that, like, have such great impact or such profound impact, and so many of those, like, things that feel really big when you're little and as you grow up and you're, like, it's not a big deal, but, like, when you're little, like, so many of those little things, like, you really walked me through, and, like, I don't know, like, one of my favorite and, like, kind of silliest memories, too, is, like, waking up in the middle of the night and being, like, terrified. Like, terrified to, like, move or to, like, do anything. And I would, like, take who knows how long. It seemed, like, forever in my mind, but to, like, build up the courage to, like, rush into your room, and then I would just, like, stand on your bedside like a creep, scare the crap out of me, and, like, eventually you just were used to it, and you would just, like, open up the blankets, and I would, like, curl up with you, and then I'd be able to sleep, but it's. Yeah, like, it's one of those, like, you know, it's so foundational to, like, feeling, like, safe and loved in the world. And it's a little bit creepy, but it's funny. Yeah. Oh, man. I want more time to ask you all the questions. What do you feel most grateful for in your life?

[32:26] JOLEEN MONTOYA DYE: I think just the opportunity for growth and, like. And my people, I mean, I feel so grateful for. I feel pretty rich in good people in my life, like, throughout different phases of my life. And what you were talking about earlier, like, what they each awaken in me or have, like, supported in me in terms of my own development or safety or happiness, that just to me, like, continues to be, like, the most important thing. Like, I don't. I mean, I do care what I'm doing, and I do care, like, about the work I'm doing, but mostly I care about who I'm doing it with and, like, who I get to spend the time with and grow from and learn from.

[33:25] CONTESSA TRUJILLO: Yeah. Relationships are big. Big. And community is big.

[33:31] JOLEEN MONTOYA DYE: Yeah. And the people like you and who've just been a thread through all of it, because to me, that feels important in terms of really, like, not having to explain the context of things or, like, oh, man.

[33:49] CONTESSA TRUJILLO: Yep.

[33:51] JOLEEN MONTOYA DYE: I just really appreciate somebody who's been through it all and who's seen it really clearly.

[33:58] CONTESSA TRUJILLO: Yeah. And me, too. That is. That's huge. I'm really grateful for that, too. And to walk along you in this life.

[34:08] JOLEEN MONTOYA DYE: Yeah.

[34:09] CONTESSA TRUJILLO: I'm so grateful for you.

[34:10] JOLEEN MONTOYA DYE: Thank you.

[34:11] CONTESSA TRUJILLO: Thank you. I love you.

[34:12] JOLEEN MONTOYA DYE: I love you, too.

[34:13] CONTESSA TRUJILLO: Thank you.