Corey Harvard and Lisa Harvard

[00:06] COREY HARVARD: My name is Lisa Harvard and I am 61 years old. Today's date is October 30, 2023, and we are in Mobile, Alabama. My interview partner is my son, Corey Harvard and I am his mother.

[00:24] LISA HARVARD: And I am Corey Harvard My age is 36. Today's date is October 30, 2023. Our location is Mobile, Alabama. The name of my interview partner is Lisa Harvard and she is my mom. They can jump right in. So, mom, one reason I wanted to do this is I feel like my story is so centered and out in the public around here because of prism united, and I don't get to hear your story very much. And so in some of this interview, I was just hoping to get a chance to hear more about you. I mean, the first thing I wanted to ask was what was it like to be a kid?

[01:27] COREY HARVARD: For me to be a kid? Okay. Well, growing up as a child, I came from Columbus, Ohio, and I lived for a really short time in the place with my mom and my dad. I was very, very little. So they split up. They divorced when I was probably like four years old. And I have some memories of that. In some happiness, I was able to spend some time with my dad, really in the capacity that he would come and pick my sister and I up, like on Saturdays. But very shortly after that, my mom remarried. I think I was like five. And so there was a stepfather situation, and it was sort of a, it was just a harder time for me. I know I have one sister, one sibling. Your aunt Laurie. And Aunt Laurie seemed to adjust really well. There was a lot of stepfather and stepmothers that came along with that and stepsisters, and some of that was really good. But I just, I struggled with that a lot more. I think I just felt sort of misplaced. I think I was really happy, even though it was very young to remember, four years old and a little bit younger than that to be in a situation with a mom and a dad. But I felt most loved and centered with those parents. And then things changed. So my childhood from there also, I guess I would say I was eight. And then my new stepfather moved us away and took us to South Florida. And so it took me away from my dad, for one. And that's where I grew up for the most part, went to school and my mom, there was a divorce again. So with that divorce, you know, took me into more, like, I'm going to say, like fifth grade. So there was a lot of separation there. There were some really good years there than with just my mom and my sister and I. But just some, I guess just some struggle along with that.

[04:03] LISA HARVARD: Did Grandpa have any say over the move? Like, what happened there?

[04:13] COREY HARVARD: That was something that in that day, as I think back, and I know that the laws have changed, but actually, my dad didn't have much to say about that when mom got remarried. I know it would have very much been his choice to not have us go. He was a very active father that made sure that he was still very present in our lives, and he made it a lot of fun when we did that. And I think he was probably pretty heartbroken when we moved away. And I can say this, too, that he spent the better part of a lot of the years ahead coming to visit us because we didn't go back there very much. I did a little bit in after, like, graduation years, and then once I was married and took you or my dad, and I took you back to see my dad, but no, not so much. My dad didn't really. I know it would not have been his choice, but he didn't have anything to do with that. He would not have wanted us to leave.

[05:24] LISA HARVARD: Do you feel like you missed out on that time with your dad when you had to move?

[05:30] COREY HARVARD: I do. I think about him a lot because I had the opportunities, obviously, when he came to visit us, to sort of get to know him. And sometimes I've thought about knowing him more in terms of, like, when I think of my life with watching you with your dad and other people actually in a situation where they weren't, you know, split, divorced from a divorced family. And so I know that I can't know what it would really have been like to stay around my dad, really, but I know I would have liked to have had the chance. And then when he did come to visit, I know there were parts of my life that were very different than they are now, that tried to get an opportunity to get to know him. But I know my views were very different than they are now. And I wish that that had not been the case, or I wish I would have had more time to know him now very much, if that makes sense.

[06:35] LISA HARVARD: Mm hmm. Oh, I know what you're talking about. Is there anything that you've ever wanted to ask me about my childhood or being a kid in y'all's house?

[06:51] COREY HARVARD: I've thought about that a lot. When I was reading over some questions, it said some things about, like, happiest moments in your life. And I would just say this as a side note of my happiest moment in time had everything to do with when I gave birth to you. And I say that because I think trying to give you a family situation was hopefully a good thing. You know, just on a positive not feeling from. Feeling like coming from a split family. How while you were growing up in our home, how did that feel?

[07:34] LISA HARVARD: I loved being a kid. That's something I've just always wanted you to know you. Thank you. Whoa. That got emotional so fast. So I remember always, on one hand, not really having a ton of friends as a kid, but I had close friends. I had Jason, and of course, we would visit family. And what I remember the most is just being lost in my own world. It's playing with Lincoln logs and my toys, and I remember the sing along movies that you would get me, so I could sing along to my favorite Disney movies and video games, and I remember playing in the dirt pit in the back and really just being so content to be lost in my imagination. I think my favorite memories as a kid was the dinner table. I loved when we would eat dinner, and I loved loving your food. Even as a kid, I remember thinking that every meal was the best meal I ever ate. And dad's sense of humor.

[09:12] COREY HARVARD: You have that.

[09:13] LISA HARVARD: I felt so loved as a kid. I felt so loved. And I see a lot of people in the work that I do who don't have that. And it has been the through line of my life is that I know how to love people because of how you love me.

[09:43] COREY HARVARD: Hi, Corey I watch how you love. It's evident. It's really evident, obviously, with your organization, but I mean, just in every day, or the connections that you have, I'm glad that you're describing how you felt as a child, because obviously, we've had some road maps along the way that took us in some different directions. And I have often wondered. I think I've said this to you. I go into your room, even though we've remodeled, we made sure not to touch that room. That's on purpose. And I sometimes sit on your bed, and I am really so hopeful that it was a good space. And because I feel you there, and I. I have wondered if it's a place that you still feel. Your childhood, it mattered. That matters, because I did try to do that. I wanted you to be a happy kid with all of my heart. It made me so happy to be your mom. It was the best time in my life when I gave birth to you. When you talk to a person about their purpose, I knew mine. Exactly. And that was that you came into my life and changed me in so many ways. I am just. I'm so much better now than I ever would have been without you in my life. So thank you.

[11:27] LISA HARVARD: So I think that I'm sure something you've wondered about. Cause I've heard you and dad allude to it. Is just being concerned about when I was realizing I was gay and how it really felt. And the truth is that y'all laid this foundation that was just this. This bottomless feeling of security. You know, I. There was one time where Yawg were, like, in a tiff about something and, like, snapped at each other. And it was such an uncommon thing that I remember getting really upset in my room, and I think dad came in and found me really upset. And it was nothing. Like, I look back now, and it was like. It wasn't even a fight. Y'all just, like, got on each other's nerves about something for a moment. And it was so unusual for y'all to be really upset in any kind of, like, toxic way with each other. So I went into the world with this feeling that this is just what it's like to be in a family is that you're loved and you're safe, and you get to have parents who cook you delicious meals, and they're interested in you, and they ask a lot of questions. And that security has been something I think I've carried with me in every relationship, just in who I am. I know that when I realized I was gay in middle school, I was on a trajectory where I was also really committed to my faith journey, and. But even then, the struggles. I didn't ever feel truly isolated from y'all. I think it would have felt so much like my journey. And I think the gift y'all gave me, it might not feel like this to y'all, but was just the trust of giving me space. Even though y'all were very present and loved me. The number of people I know who they were forced out because their parents read their journals or read through their phones or, God, mom, the amount of stuff I was looking at online when I got the computer, that was just me trying to learn about what it meant to be gay. And so if y'all looked it off, y'all were snoopy parents, it would have taken no time to figure it out. And the truth is, I felt that trust and respect for who I was in that space. And I think that what allowed me to become the person I am today is that y'all provided that kind of space for me and the struggling. I know that y'all wish that I didn't have to go through that. I think that with where all of us were, that there was just no, it was inevitable. Like, I wouldn't have known even how to come to y'all and talk about it. And so it wasn't from a place of feeling like I couldn't. It was just that I was so tangled up in my own journey that I just wouldn't have known how to include you in it when it came to that.

[14:36] COREY HARVARD: I guess I would say to you, I understand that from the perspective that when you did, and I've said this many times to people, you had lots of really good information to share in that very first conversation. Once we got past that emotional moment and you fell into your dad's arms, I know I was looking directly across from you, and he was sitting to your side. I remember you falling into his arms. But later in the conversation that very evening, when we sat in the living room, of course, a lot of it we may not have understood. We talked about things like conversion therapy already or the excess programs that were not doing so well anymore, and the directors and things like that, which later I did a lot of research on. But your dad still says if it. You were so informative to us that even though we were, we had no idea. We really didn't. I've had many people ask me, but. So we were caught off guard, as you might say. We had enough information from you. So if that's also what you were doing while you were trying to discover who you were at the time and are, it really helped us through that journey so much more than you can understand. It did, because it didn't leave us just reeling. We talked about those things. It gave me parts, ways to actually do my own research and understand. And then I know that we had conversations. I do remember when your lights watching your headlights leave, sitting on the front porch, and I fell into your dad's lap at that time. Because I could just say to you that in all of my life, one of the hardest things for me in that journey, in that struggle, was that there was a separation because I didn't understand what it was. It was like almost an embodiment of someone else that I was trying to understand, and I had no knowledge of it. I really didn't have. So a big part of it for me was feeling separated from you, and I didn't like that. You are such a huge part of my life. And during those months and a couple years there, while I was trying to figure out my journey and what this was going to look like it was just a separation. But you again came. You would come back, we would have more conversations. And the more information at that time, the better. As we were struggling through figuring out what this was going to look like for us until we did.

[17:22] LISA HARVARD: Yeah. Yeah. I remember feeling that, that distance. And I think it was just. I mean, part of it for a lot of queer kids is you feel it's hard enough to process in a world where you're socialized to think that you're wrong or sinful or whatever the story is. And there's a part of that journey that no one can join you on. Like, it is your journey and it's internal, and it's a journey that a lot of these kids don't survive. And it can create a space distance from people. Because a lot of that is about figuring out how to love yourself and get reconciled with yourself. And if you're struggling with self loathing, you can't receive love from other people. And there's a really a hard thing that I've always wanted to share with you. It's just a really beautiful part of this for me when I think about you. But something that feels so true to me is that when this was at its worst, it was. I think I can't remember if it was my second semester of my freshman year or if it was the beginning of my sophomore year. I think it was that the sophomore year.

[18:46] COREY HARVARD: I think you got through that.

[18:47] LISA HARVARD: I think maybe I got through a full year. If that sounds right, you did. And then I can't remember if I had already come out to y'all or in the process of it or about to come out, whatever. But I had. Around that time, I stopped going to school and I started skipping my classes. I remember at the beginning of the semester, I took this. What's the study of rocks? Is it ecology? I can't remember. But geology. Geology? How did I get to ecology? Like the environment. So, yeah, it was geology. And there was like 70 kids in this class. It was an intro class of these classes is an auditorium and a big dry erase board or something like that. Anyway, there was an exam at the beginning of the year early on that the professor wrote the distribution of grades kind of on the class like averages and put the highest grade up top and the lowest grade on the bottom and passed out my paper. I made the highest grade in that first exam. And it's because I had been more present for the first part of it. But it was around that time that for whatever reason, I was struggling the most. And it was this dark night of the soul where it's like, can I really accept this? Have I failed at life? And, you know, it was these feelings of, has God abandoned me? Am I, like, falling away? All this kind of stuff. And I just suddenly stopped. And I stopped going to school, and I stopped. I skipped to work a lot. I lost that job at Barnes and Noble. It wasn't a smooth transition out of there. The manager put me on the do not hire for Albarn's. No, of course she didn't understand what was going on too, but, yeah, then I remember going back to that geology class after, like, a couple months where I was skipping a lot and taking, like, she put an exam in front of me on a day I didn't know it was an exam day, and I didn't know a single thing on the test. And my anxiety, like, to this day, over this span of my life, a nightmare that I have is me in a class that I don't know what class it is, and I don't see anything. I don't know anything on the test. And I know it was that momentous. Cause it was so traumatizing to be a kid who performed really well in school and then to be like, oh, God, I'm failing this too. And so I dropped all my classes. And there was one that one night that got really hard. I was at Knollwood apartments. I was on the second floor. So there's no, like, jumping out of the window and dying from two floors, right? But I remember sitting on the windowsill and just contemplating it, like, what would it be like for this to all be over? And this feeling that I had and that I've always had is you. And it's like this invisible, like, golden lasso. And I just sat there, and I knew that even in this worst moment of my life that I can't have. And so even when it was really bad, there was always that. And this feeling I get a lot of times with these kids is that prism is just how I took that golden lasso and I turned it into a net. And we just keep saving people with that love that you put in me a long time ago.

[22:48] COREY HARVARD: I want to tell you this, that when I was thinking back on that night, and I remember watching you and with your dad, I remember. I know that I was numb in a lot of ways because, like I said, it was, you know, we were caught off guard by it, but I remember words coming out of my mouth, and it wasn't something that obviously was a planned thing, because I wasn't. I was very uncertain as to. I know how upset you were. And I remember the words just speaking from within my being to you. Nothing that you could ever do, nothing that you could ever do, would ever change our love. Could ever do. Nothing that you could ever do could change that. The way that we love you, the way that I love you. There's just nothing, however it is or has been or in our past, as we came through our own journey, I. Again, I've watched you do what you do with the kids, and I'm amazed by what I recognize as this. I don't know, this compassion within you really never translated it from something that you got from me. I just know how much I loved you. I would just say that because I'm. And that's why I said that that night to you, Corey But I'm so grateful that you do what you do with Prism, because I know that there are. When I hear the stories, what I think about is, and I've asked you this, wouldn't you win away? Did you ever really feel like we would be parents that would turn you away? Did you ever have that?

[24:39] LISA HARVARD: That was never on the radar.

[24:41] COREY HARVARD: Okay. Cause I know that even though I understand how your story could have gotten where because of dealing with it yourself, that's important to me somehow. And I know that you see that you deal with that with kids square on. I don't know how often, but I know that there are kids out there that are turned away. I know some of those kids myself. I just can't imagine.

[25:06] LISA HARVARD: Yeah. Yeah. Are you and dad proud of yourselves for the ways that y'all navigated coming out with me in a deeply conservative, rural part of this country where y'all didn't have, like, progressive friends and a progressive church. And, like, I. Something I appreciate so much about just the world now that you don't get as a kid is you see how much your context shapes you into who you are. And that, to me, is a reason to have compassion for people, is you see that at the end of the day, we're social creatures, and the things that we're socialized to believe and the people we grow up with have a great impact on us. And somehow it didn't seem to. I know you all had a journey. I'm not saying that, but it didn't seem to take y'all long to really come to a place to where you were, like, not just supporting me, but y'all are, like, all of a sudden caring about you know, black lives matter and all of these other marginalized groups that were, you know, oppressed in this country. So I just want to know if y'all are amazed by yourselves and if you're proud of yourselves for that journey.

[26:37] COREY HARVARD: I know a lot of reflection with your dad and I as we're discussing politics in this present day and from point, wherever it was that we realized how much of our journeys had made us look at the world differently just in our conversation. We are so grateful to look at the way that we look at the world so differently now. And I'm so grateful. I feel certain if it hadn't have been for you coming out, discovering this about yourself and being true to who you are, I think that the world would probably still look different for your dad and I. We were just on different paths. He had some roots from his pentecostal faith. I didn't have so much of that, but I was on a journey because I chose that. And then you and I picked up there. Yes, it looks very, very different. And I'm so grateful. I know that sounds. I'm not sure how that sounds. I have heard people say that it just. It shaped our journey so differently. It has taken a very conservative people and made us take a very different and true look at the world in so many different ways. And I'm grateful for that. To look at needs differently, and I just feel like truth is lies in so much more of the way that we look at the world now. And a progressive faith, you know, where I did think there for a while that that might go out the window. I did. I struggled with my journey and my faith, and progressive is a beautiful way to look at things. Contemplative words that I'm learning. Yeah, we are proud of ourselves for that. It's a big part of our lives. Grateful for to you for all of those changes in our lives. I guess I would say in part of that and just finishing up that, is that. A lot of times when I've had conversations, I will say, to have a true journey, yes, it does mean to struggle through and to try to have to understand something that you never thought you might. But to come all the way through usually means that you look at the world in a very different way. And we very much do in a beautiful way.

[29:02] LISA HARVARD: Yeah. I love that y'all have been marked as troublemakers in the family for just being more compassionate human beings. Yeah.

[29:14] COREY HARVARD: Yeah, we are.

[29:16] LISA HARVARD: Yeah. So, so prism, I am so proud of. I'm turning the pride back on myself for a second. I'm just going to brag about this. I'm so proud of what we have been able to do with this organization and about the way that this journey that we've all had together as a family has really been. What shaped, I mean, knowing how to do this in the first place. I mean, we're not business people. We didn't grow up in the nonprofit world. But I think our a passionate family and good at processing things together. I don't know if y'all know that that's a skill, really, that you especially have. And dad, I think at times when there's real conflict, can model that, too, in ways that he probably can't even see. But this organization, I think, is really changing lives, and I think we'll one day go down in history in southwest Alabama as something that changed the cultural climate so that LGBTQ young people had a better opportunity to live thriving lives. I really do believe that.

[30:40] COREY HARVARD: I do, too. It's a wonderful thing that you have taken and run with and successfully helped so many people and are continuing to do. I would like to ask you this through that, through prism, because it's just. It's an impact in so many, countless ways for so many people. It's impacted my life just to watch and see how it's helped you, how through what you've done has helped so many people. What if there was an influence in your life? A person or some people or a specific person? If there was an influence that sort of guided you or gave you some ideas, who would you say that might be?

[31:31] LISA HARVARD: It has to be a combination. It can't be one person. You are the biggest influence in my life because you're a really freaking compassionate person who has clearly a hard time accepting compliments. But then I would say Jo Ankne, the buddhist lady who I met at Barnes and Noble, who became one of my closest friends when I was a kid and still an evangelical who is equally parts like scared of her because she was a buddhist and fascinated by her because she moved through the world in such a light, present way. And then a lot of poets and progressive christian thinkers. So Andrea Gibson, you know, they're a queer spoken word poethe Rob Bell early on was a major influence in my life. And then there have been a lot of people, a lot of progressive christian figures like Ellen Simms and Stephen Kurtz, who have had a major influence on me, but I feel really blessed in that I didn't. And maybe this had something to do with you, too, but I did have an instinct to not abandon my faith journey. And even though it is such a mystery now, there's so much that I used to feel confident about. I'm like, I have no hell. What I believe about this kind of stuff. What I will say is it's been enriching to find that there were thinkers who, instead of trying to solve the mysteries of this life, are teaching me to. To be with the mysteries of this life and to be okay with uncertainty and to be okay with loss and grief and all of these major things. Yeah. And so those are the people, though, that have kind of taught me how to do that.

[33:42] COREY HARVARD: Those are not surprising answers. I know some of those people well, and I can see that. And something else that I would love to follow up there with is that I understand how in sometimes some family situations, that a lot of family members of queer people have tossed their faith out the window or don't even bother. I understand it. But I am also extremely grateful that you held onto yours, even though I say this a lot to people that I know they really don't get it, but people that still hang on and love me enough to listen that I will say it looks very different. But because you did not, it was also, from a very young age, such a beautiful part of the person that you are. And I watched that. I was able to watch that. And even though I know it looks very different, I have come along in mine at times. I can honestly say, Corey there were times where I remember doing a lot of praying on my own. I remember you said, mom, it's not God's fault. There were just some things, some pivotal moments that I sat with myself and decided to hang in there. And it looks very different for me, but I'm really, really grateful that you didn't toss that out. I think you have a beautiful mind for that as well. Not only are you courageous and compassionate and run this beautiful nonprofit with so many of the just, most compassionate, just the person that you are, you also have a beautiful mind in that it's spiritual. And I think that it's also a really important component in our lives if you can hold on to whatever it looks like for you. I've done that for me, too. Now I'm still trying to dive into what that looks like and probably will never figure it out completely, but it also is a very peaceful. You can find some peace there. It's a peaceful part of life also. So I'm super grateful because you have a very great theological mind as well.

[35:47] LISA HARVARD: Yeah.

[35:48] COREY HARVARD: So. And you've written some great pieces here lately and go, Corey who are some.

[35:58] LISA HARVARD: Of the people that have been the biggest influences on your life? Who are some of your favorite people?

[36:11] COREY HARVARD: I have some people in my life that are lifelong friends that have hung in there with me. My friend Lisa and she and I graduated together. She's been my friend a long, long time. My sister, they were the first two people that I actually said out loud when you had your discovery, when you discovered that you were gay, I was able to actually say that also the words myself to them, which is, that's climbing the ladder. That's the healing feeling, having some love sent back to. You know, there are people that I know also have always loved you. I have a particular friend. Her name is Theresa. She's here. She's my friend here. And for the most lovely reason, she has continued to be my friend. And I bring her up mainly because it has to do with you. I know she has every reason not to be my friend or to really toss you and I both out with the bathwater because of her faith. But it actually has a lot to do with our spirituality. And you as a young boy, she still continues to be my friend. And a lot of that reason is watching you. She knew me and then she knew you had. So that's a huge impact in my life, to know that there are people who you wouldn't think would maybe remain part of, want to remain part of your life because it's sometimes easier not to. She has, she's been a dear, dear friend, and she probably knows me in ways that I'm really grateful for that. So my probably other, the biggest influence I probably will ever have is you.

[38:00] LISA HARVARD: There's a lot of reciprocity in this bus. Yeah. Well, I think we're probably in our last moments here. I just want you to know how proud I am to be your son, how loved, how successfully you love me, and that I get to look forward to the rest of our lives, to understanding how to best give that back and get to take some journeys together and have a lot of fun together and keep walking through this mystery together.

[38:48] COREY HARVARD: I look forward to all that, honey. And I said this here not many days ago on your birthday, but it's a completely humbling experience to be your mom. Sometimes I just. I look at you and I just can't. I can't fathom the kind of love that I see you give. It's a humbling experience. I'm so grateful to be your mom.

[39:16] LISA HARVARD: Hopefully we're just going to do 10.

[39:19] COREY HARVARD: Seconds of silence now.

[39:20] LISA HARVARD: For editing, and then I'll stop the recording.