Dan Shantler and Debbi Meslar-Little

00:03 Hi, my name is Dan. I'm 42 years old, and today's date is Wednesday, October 19. I'm recording from Charlottesville, Virginia, and my conversation partner's name is Debbi Okay.

00:15 Okay. And Debbi you can go ahead and read Dan's bio and then just read it, you said, or read it out loud? Yeah. Oh, sure. All right. Dan's bio. I served in the United States Air Force for 20 years, with most of my time in the Washington, DC area. I started my Air Force career as a telephone maintenance technician and retired as a master sergeant, working it program management. I am a gay, white male, married with two daughters, ages 20 and 17. I graduated from Drexel University with a b's, focusing on business administration and marketing. I've been working in FM at UVA as the systems control manager for the last three years.

01:05 Okay. In Debbie's brief bio, I feel like I'm on a journey and transitioning to another identity. I suppose that's why I answer my questions as a centrist. I'm a mom, grandma, and now widow. Good family ties. I'm really fortunate. I was a practicing Catholic until Covid. My retirement has been a series of part time jobs, and hours spent working have been lessening. I'm finally starting to started taking piano lessons. Okay, and do either of you have.

01:38 Any follow up questions about the other's bio? Yes. What is FM?

01:47 Facilities management.

01:48 Oh, okay.

01:49 Yeah.

01:49 So, yeah, I kept thinking about that, and I just couldn't quite get it. Okay. Facilities management. Great. I'm sure that keeps you very busy.

01:57 Yeah. So I actually monitor a 24/7 operations center. So everything that's monitored at the university, from fridges and freezers at the hospital to elevator entrapments, fire alarms, student housing hospital. So it's. Yes, very busy.

02:13 That's a lot.

02:15 It can be, but.

02:16 Well, especially including the hospital, because the hospital is such a huge entity in itself.

02:21 Right, right. And there's so many just different rules and regulations and procedures and whatnot. So it says you're retired. Did you have a main career before you retired?

02:30 Yes, I was a midwife. Oh, wow. A nurse. Midwife and practice here in Charlottesville. Over in Fishersville. And before that, a labor and delivery nurse. So 30 years of women's health.

02:44 Wow. Wow. Mostly, like, in this area then.

02:46 Yes, I worked in Lynchburg, and then I worked in Charlottesville out of Martha Jefferson and then Augusta healthcare for women over in Fishersville.

02:55 Oh, wow.

02:55 Yeah.

02:56 And where did you grow up?

02:58 New Jersey, as a matter of fact.

03:00 What part?

03:01 The middle, northern part a little town called Whippany.

03:04 Okay.

03:05 How about you, Dan?

03:06 I'm originally from Buffalo, New York.

03:07 Oh. I lived in Syracuse for too.

03:10 Okay. You get it?

03:11 I do get it, yeah. So. And then I said, well, actually, all of us, we had family here, and after a few springs in Virginia, we said, why are we still in Syracuse? You know how it is. You hit snow in Binghamton and it just keeps on snowing, even in April.

03:28 Yeah, exactly. How about you? So I, like I said, or like you read, most of my military career was in the DC area.

03:37 Right.

03:38 My daughter's actually lived in this area. When they were school age, DC was the closest I could get stationed. So they spent a little bit of time in the Virginia beach area, but then also relocated here before they went to college. I wanted to spend a little bit more time with them. And so that kind of was the decision as to why we moved down this way. So now we're out in Barbersville.

04:00 Oh, right. Yeah.

04:01 We traded in a condo in northern DC for a house and eight acres out in Barbersville. So very different living.

04:09 Yes, very different. How long have you been out there now?

04:12 We've. I've been here full time three years. I bought a year before we moved down because I didn't want to look for a job and a house at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. I found it interesting that in your bio, it says you're in this. This journey and transitioning to another identity, mainly because I'm there. So, you know, 20, just the other day, somebody had asked me, what do you do for fun? And I was like, I don't know how to answer that question because it was 20 years military, and then I had the kids, but now both girls are in college. And so I have this time that's like, what do I like to do? I mean, I'm interested in others who are going through that and kind of where you are in that and how you feel about it.

04:58 Right. So it's really interesting because that is one of the transitions. There are a number of transitions in life, I think. But, yes, that's a big one. When the children are out of the nest, so to speak, they come back, in my experience, for several periods of time, I have a stepdaughter and a daughter and a son, and one of them lives around here. But yes. So one of the things that happens oftentimes in a relationship, and you'll see this, and you may have experienced it in your own, is that suddenly when the children are gone, the two people in the relationship look at each other and say, now what do we do? And so, fortunately, my husband and I had no problem finding other things to do. But it is a big transition, and your role as a parenthood changes and shifts. We're still always parents. It doesn't matter how old the children are. You know, in fact, you know, my daughter is a year younger than you, so, you know, not to say that she has to come back to the nest ever. She doesn't. She's, she's, she has a life in Connecticut. And. But, yes. So my next transition was from being a partner for 40 years to being widowed. And what is that like? And because I feel like I'm pretty healthy and I have some longevity in my family. What's it going to look like for 20 more years? Possibly.

06:32 I find it interesting. So the piano lessons, is that something that you've always wanted to do or.

06:38 Always wanted to do? And it's so interesting because I don't remember exactly when we wrote these. I think it was quite some time ago, and I was still taking piano lessons. Was this about a year ago? Did I start the process a year ago?

06:50 It might have been a while. Yeah, it was because my youngest is now 18.

06:53 Oh, there you go. Right. It takes a while, I imagine, to get us together. But, yes, one of the things that I always wanted to do was learn how to play the piano. And so I did start to take lessons at different times. I've dabbled in it a little bit, but it's so interesting because in the course of taking the lessons, I discovered that I don't want to spend as much time as it's going to take to actually learn how to play.

07:15 Sure.

07:16 And I'm not willing to put that kind of time in at this point in my life. So instead I'm working on watercolor.

07:21 Sure. Well, but you're exploring that.

07:23 Oh, yes. Now, how about you? What do you like to do for hobbies? Or are you just starting to?

07:28 Kind of. Just starting. Because even when I was military, I always had a part time job because kids are expensive, Santa Claus is being expensive and all that. So I was at a part time job, and then at some point, I wanted to make sure I was marketable when I got out. So I decided to go back to school. I had my associate's degree, but decided to go back for my undergrad. So it's like all my time was spent checking all the boxes I needed to, to set myself up for success. And then again, so get here. I'm learning my new job the kids are here. We're spending great time together, and. But it's also weird because there's an additional transition in this, in that I started at UVA right before the pandemic, so I've never had a regular experience. And in my line of work with continuity of operations, the pandemic ate a lot of that, you know, so it's been, it's been interesting to learn what my role is supposed to be versus, you know, what it was, because there were things that had to get done and someone had to do them. But, you know, I love traveling. I'm supposed, I know I'm supposed to say my spouse and my kids are my favorite thing in the world, but food and drink are probably my two favorite things in the whole wide world. I, an italian background, and I show how I care by, you know, cooking.

08:47 Absolutely.

08:49 And all that. Like, it's, that's, that's kind of it. And so in hobby wise, honestly, hosting, like, it's funny because, like, we create all, my entire family, we all created these Amazon lists of things that we might want. So whenever someone asks for a birthday or a holiday, they can look at it. And all of mine is like, chafing dishes and this and that just because it makes my job easier and it makes a nicer presentation. So I guess that's probably my hobby.

09:15 Well, no, that's a good one. There's nothing, you know, nothing as satisfying as being able to feed the people that you love. My husband was a cook, and he was the cook in the family. And for me, it's been a real exploration to try to say, all right, you know, what am I going to cook tonight? So to speak. But I'm learning. So that's very interesting. Now, what about your spouse who cooks for the family? You probably.

09:42 It's typically me. Yes. Yes. My spouse actually does. Usually we have a smoker, and so usually if, like, we're smoking meat or something like that, you know, that's like, I don't, you know, go ahead, have fun. That's what he does.

09:55 Yeah.

09:56 So he'll typically, like, do that. And then I'm usually taking care of, like, kind of all the other things. I also end up, usually, he's very numbers focused and very logical. I mean, I'm logical, obviously, in a lot of different ways, but I usually end up doing all of the coordination with friends and family and this paint, I'm kind of like the social director of the family in a lot of ways. So that's how that kind of divides out and it works really well for us. I think the piano lessons I found interesting because. And now finding out about the watercoloring, it sounds as though you're a very creative person.

10:36 You know, it's interesting. I'm trying to become a creative person.

10:39 Okay.

10:40 I'm trying to explore that part because I think, you know, in my career and practice, I was always working, always working. I do have gardens, and I. And I work outside in my gardens a lot. But, yeah, I'd like the watercolor, especially to me, can be just so much more creative because it is exactly. Or totally what one wants to do. And so I'm just. Yeah, I'm just beginning and playing around, and it's very. It's nice. It's very free form, if you will.

11:16 No, that makes a lot of sense. In high school, I was. I fancied myself a creative person, but always was never in a position where my jobs allowed for that creativity, so I always had to find it elsewhere. Right, right.

11:28 So you're feeding.

11:30 Yeah. For me, it's like, on the way home, I'm trying. I'm looking. I'm, like, in my head, I'm like, all right, what do I have in the house? What can I turn that into? How, you know. And usually I have to do meal prep because we're both pretty busy. So I'll cook three, four days out and whatnot. So that's, like, the only, I guess, creative outlet that I've really kind of had. But it checks the box for me anyways.

11:53 Right. And your life is very busy. You are working full time. You have. Even though your daughters are somewhat pledged, they're still, I'm sure, very much apart. Where are they now?

12:07 So my oldest is in her third year at Kent State.

12:09 Okay.

12:10 So she's getting ready to study abroad in Florence next semester. And then my youngest just started at Appalachian State.

12:16 Oh, yeah.

12:17 So. And my youngest, she actually wants. She's pre nursing, and she's also working towards a dance therapy certification. When she's done, she actually wants to work pediatrics, specifically peds, oncology. But that's very focused.

12:32 Very focused. Very focused. Where do you think she got that.

12:35 Desire from for her? She spent. When she was young, she spent a lot of time in the hospital. She had a lot of different issues. And when you ask her about it, she just says, you say, felicity, do you want to be a doctor? And she said, no. The nurses are the ones who are a little bit more nurturing and who are a little bit more tuned into what my needs were made me feel comfortable, and I think that's kind of a driving force for her. Yeah.

13:03 And that's oftentimes mostly true of the nursing profession in general. There's more time.

13:09 Sure.

13:10 Yeah. So that's very good. And how long have you and your spouse known each other?

13:16 We've been together for 14 years, almost 15 years. Married for five of that. So very long time. In gay, it's forever.

13:26 Ah, interesting.

13:27 I just say that as a joke. Yeah. So a lot of people can, and this is only my view, you know, people have different views on things, but in a lot of ways, the best way I can explain it, you know, being a gay man and growing up and feeling as though you have, like, all these obligations, you never, in high school, you never really get to explore who you are. And so by the time you get to that actual dating stage and you're actually dating someone who is the same sex and you're exploring that, it's almost like you have to revert back down to, like, this. You're feeling that void and that maturity of, like, I didn't really get this when I was in middle school or in high school, like a lot of people did. And so you find yourself, you know, trying to figure out what it all means, but in that process, you're still figuring it out. So there's a lot of, like, you date a lot of different people, and so it's just the. It's just, it's a bit of a learning curve, I think was the best is the best way to kind of explain it. And so when I say, like, in gay, that's forever. It's because there are a lot of gay relationships that maybe don't last, but that, again, I'm looking at it from that, that timeline of, well, we're maturing a little bit differently and at a different pace.

14:51 Yeah, that's really interesting because, of course, you know, we think of most commonly heterosexual relationships when kids are in middle school, you know, boyfriend, girlfriend. And the same thing holds true in high school, certainly when I was growing up. And in your generation, probably there was a little bit more freedom to explore, but I hadn't ever thought of it, thought of it that way as having to. It's almost like you have to learn it on both, on two different platforms, if I will.

15:23 Yeah.

15:24 You know, relationships and then, you know, a relationship with same sex. So that's. That's very interesting.

15:31 And then adding the military factor into that.

15:33 So what?

15:34 Don't ask, don't tell?

15:35 Oh, my gosh. Yes. For how long?

15:37 I served a majority of my career. I was only openly out in my entire career for the last two years, and that was because we got married, and at some point, paperwork was going to go across someone's desk, and then it was like, well, I might as well just prep everybody now so there's no surprise or no questions. And then. But. But it was very. That at that point, it was very supportive. Early on in my career, I remember everybody on base getting sat down into this, into this big conference room, and basically legal was there to brief, and they basically stated for don't ask, don't tell. If someone accuses you of being gay, you have to prove that you're not. And how do you do that? So then you're. It's very challenging to navigate that. And so even imagine, even now. And that's the other thing. So military families, everybody does things together, right? So I'm a part of this team where everybody does things together, but I can't bring my spouse. I can't bring my partner. I can bring the kids. There was a promotion that I had a few years before I retired. My now spouse worked in the same organization. That's not how we met. It just happened to be that way. He was a contractor. He came to my promotion ceremony. At the end of it, he came up to me, he shook my hand, and then he had to leave because we couldn't explain why he was there or who he was. So while there's this big celebration, because I had hit this milestone, we had that very awkward, uncomfortable, and now looking back on it, regrettable experience that he couldn't celebrate with us. So that's been hard to get through. I know.

17:23 Sure. And so now seeing the transition, and how many years has it been since.

17:27 You'Ve been out of the three years, but the last two years, being openly gay, we're very supportive. My leadership, everybody was just like, okay, you know, that's who you are. And that doesn't. I was always terrified of someone. I always felt as though I had to overachieve because if somebody were gonna think ill of me, I didn't want it to be because of that. I wanted to. So that kind of fed into a lot of that as well. And maybe looking back at it, maybe that's why I. Why I'm successful and why I can navigate it. But in a lot of ways, it's.

18:02 Sure.

18:02 It was hard. It was hard.

18:03 What about with your family? Have they been supportive? You say you come from an italian family, probably Italian Catholic.

18:10 Yeah.

18:10 Yeah.

18:10 Yes, actually. And my husband's mom is devout Catholic. But we're the first gay wedding that we've been to where all parents showed up.

18:23 They did. That's a wonderful thing for you.

18:25 Yeah. I'm very fortunate. So that was what I wanted, to get to your family ties. Because although my family drives me crazy, they are supportive and they all show up and they're there when they need to be. And to be perfectly honest with you, in a lot of ways, I think they might love my husband a little bit more than me. But that's okay.

18:43 But that's okay because sometimes they just do, right? Yeah. It's so interesting because, you know, I have four brothers. And my youngest brother remains unpartnered unmarried. No. No girlfriends, boyfriends. And he is in his fifties now. And, you know, one time I spoke with him and I said, jerry, have you ever thought about why you are still single in your life? And he said, no, it just. It kind of happened. And he seems very content. And so I wonder. My parents have passed away. I'm the oldest of the siblings. And it's so interesting because I have a nephew also, who seems to be just very content being himself. But we, as some of my brothers or children, the nieces and nephews, kind of say my wonder. And at this point, I wonder if they feel free enough, given the family background that we come from, to speak their truth. But I don't know. And so the conversation kind of goes around the issue as opposed to coming right out and saying, you know, would you ever want to have a same sex partner, for example? But it's kind of talked around, but not directly.

20:05 Sure.

20:06 But I think certainly my generation, myself and my brothers and our children, who are the oldest of the group of grandchildren, they're twelve is 43. 43. My daughter's 41. So they're the. And it goes down from there to 30. And they are just, you know, they would be wonderfully supportive and open. I know. Just because of the types of kids they are. Sorry. Kids. I mean, from my point of view, you're all kids.

20:39 That's perfectly fine. Me working at the university. I keep saying kids. And I know I shouldn't have. Cause they're not, you know, the students are not.

20:45 Oh, no, they are.

20:45 They're babies. They're babies. Well, it's funny. Cause you'll be at the doctor's office and you'll be like, you're the doctor. Like, when? How did this happen?

20:54 How did this happen?

20:55 It's so true. Yes, but you bring that recently. So my husband and I have a really good friend. It was one of my husband's roommates when he lived in Denver. And he is very. He's identified as gay. He's openly gay, but he's very particular. And so he hasn't found that right person. Right. And one of the realizations that I had, and it made me think of it, the way that you're talking about kind of your relatives is he's perfectly content being alone. The problem is, I know that he has so much to offer, and I feel like he's missing out on that. And so I think maybe in some ways that may be what some of your family is feeling like. They're great people. They have so much to offer. You just want them to have someone and be happy. Right, right. But maybe for them, that's not it. Right.

21:46 And as we know, just having somebody doesn't necessarily mean being happy in a relationship. That's always a work in progress. Yeah, that's really interesting.

21:59 Yeah.

22:00 You know, the other thing that I. Another transition that I've gone through, it's a huge transition from being a practicing Catholic to, like, zero. Although it was.

22:12 I was gonna ask about that.

22:13 Yeah. In looking back, it's been coming for years and years and years and years. And for me, primarily as a woman, you know, the church just isn't interested in women being part of that. And the church as an institution is so far removed from anything that Jesus ever taught. Anyway, that's another story. But what's really interesting is that for years I could not understand the whole concept of gay marriage because marriage is between a man and a woman. It's for procreation of children, you know, and it's in. It is all catholic teaching. Not just catholic.

22:55 Sure.

22:56 Christian and other. And certainly other teachings being. It was such an interesting experience. I was very involved in the Crozet Catholic community, and we started a church for five years. And then Covid hit. And it was almost like I had this freedom to make up my own mind to decide, wait a minute, I am free to finally think about what this institution is describing versus how people can live and love and support each other. And, you know, looking back at some of the. There are a lot of wonderful things that institutionalized religion does, but it has freed me to take a whole look at all of the things that the catholic teaching purported over the years. So it's been a huge transition.

23:58 Sure.

24:00 Yeah, it is. And it's absolutely wonderful. And I've been reading some great books too. One of them was fields of blood. It was about the transition, why religion creates chaos and bloodshed. And then another one 4000 year history of Catholicism and Judaism and Islam. It's very interesting reading. So I'm doing all of that now at this point in my life. It's very exciting.

24:24 So. Yeah. And again, just not being very religious, I still believe kind of, in blessings and things. It's a blessing for you to be able to be in a place where you can experience this. Right?

24:39 Yes, that's very true. The freedom of our country, if you will, to believe as I believe and not have to worry about it, that freedom is hugely important.

24:53 Sure. So for me, growing up, my mom was 16, my dad was 18. Statistically, I should be a mess. I'm not, but. And I have relatives and siblings, actually, that are. I am also the oldest.

25:09 Are you okay?

25:10 Yeah, I am the oldest. My ADHD just kicked in and I forgot where I was going with the story because we were talking about. Oh, so my. I had a meeting a few years ago, right when I started, I don't remember, we were talking about Dei and the different diversity, equity inclusion type things, and I'm really heavily involved in facilities with that. And somebody was talking, the director at the time, she's no longer with us. She wanted to know what everybody's like. Dream was, you know, what did you want to be when you grew up? She asked that question and I was like, I never had time to think about that because I was always just worried about where my next meal was coming from. Right. So I went from not having stability, not. I kind of joke in that my mom was 16 when I was born, but I was always the adult in the relationship. And so growing up like that, and then I joined the military, and I have somewhat of a safety net, but I'm in this environment where I can't be myself. You know, I'm kind of accepted in a weird way, but feel secluded in a lot of ways. And so one of the things that I've been kind of talking to my therapist about is I'm finally at this place where I feel safe. I'm financially sound. I am in this amazing relationship. I have got this awesome house. I'm building this great community in Charlottesville. Both kids are just being. They're just knocking things out of the park and it's just being in the. I never could dream, right? So now I'm in this place where I can dream and I have free space, but what do I do with it? And so it's so feeling safe yeah, that's really.

27:01 That's huge.

27:02 It takes this huge weight that's like, been on my shoulders forever and kind of crushes it. And so now I'm in this space where it sounds. Although we're at different phases in our lives, we have a lot in common, I think.

27:17 Right.

27:17 The transition just cause of what we're going through.

27:19 Right. It is huge. You know, another thought that I had, and let me see if I can just, like, come back to it. You said something about, oh, I might have to, like, move on because I think I lost it. But that's okay. If you need a moment, I actually was going to jump in and ask.

27:42 Both some follow up questions.

27:45 Backtracking a bit. Okay, so I'll start with you, Debbi

27:49 But you mentioned that recently you've kind.

27:51 Of moved away from the catholic church. That's right.

27:54 So, firstly, do you still consider yourself religious or spiritual, but you just don't associate yourself with.

28:01 Absolutely. I've been exploring the divine feminine, which is hugely important because that part of human history has been suppressed for thousands of years. And so that is part of my exploration, as I read and discover. So, absolutely. To me, there's a huge spirituality in our existence that we have to stay in touch with. And it can start with being grounded in mother Earth. But I'm going to throw out one thing I was just reading about. If anybody studies quantum physics, matter is simply little, tiny, tiny atoms and electrons. And so we are all part of an energy field anyway, and so why not make it a spiritual energy field anyway? Sorry. So these are where my thoughts are going, you know, every day. It's exciting and it's crazy, but it's good. You also mentioned that since stepping away.

29:11 From the church, right?

29:12 Yes, that's.

29:13 Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seemed like it changed your viewpoint on gay marriage a lot, shifted your perspective on any other topics as well, where maybe you feel like you took this time to yourself. And now, without institutionalized religion, you've noticed your viewpoints changing in other ways.

29:35 That's a good question. I think that in terms of acceptance, and I was on the track of understanding that every person deserves to have a loving, nurturing environment as they grow up, and every single person on the planet needs to have an option for being able to just live in peace. So. But that was. That's not anything new. I think it is. I am becoming more courageous about speaking along those lines, I think, because of that and really being able to say no, that, you know, making people feel unworthy or bad or in any way is just wrong, unless they obviously have, you know, severely harmed other people, and that's different. But just because they are different in terms of their language or their skin color and so forth, I would like to develop more courage, which is why I'm here, too, because it took a lot to just be courageous enough. I almost didn't do it, in fact, that's why I didn't get in touch with anybody for a long time. So this is part of that transition, I think. Yeah, for sure. Does that make sense?

31:07 Yeah. Has it made you have more conflict in your personal life in terms of your relationships? Do you feel yourself like.

31:13 I know, with my family.

31:15 Do you find yourself challenging people more.

31:17 Or do you feel like. Yeah, my son in law, he. And I don't, but I don't. But I was challenging him, and the outcome wasn't great. We were arguing. It was not pleasant. So now I'm a thinking about how I can have conversations with him that are more beneficial in allowing him to speak his mind and not my giving my opinion at the time, but trying to discover why he thinks the way he does. Yes. That in particular, I'm finding that, yes, I can speak out more, but that's not always the best way to engage someone. And then, Dan, I was wondering, so.

32:12 You mentioned growing up and kind of being in this survival mode. It seems like for a lot of.

32:19 Your upbringing, do you feel like now.

32:21 That you're in a more safe and secure environment?

32:27 I don't know. Or.

32:29 Sorry, let me backtrack. So did that, like, impact your identity a lot or your viewpoint or, like, your value system growing up in that kind of environment as well, where maybe you didn't feel, like, protected? I mean, it definitely did. It's interesting. So my stepfather, he's been with my mom since I think it was, like, three, but for a very long period of time, you know, he had some drinking issues and there was some abuse issues. And so it was. It was very challenging to constantly be on eggshells, but he has since changed him, and I have this great relationship. I've been able to not forget but forgive everything that kind of happened. And we have this great relationship, but at the same time, I think because I was always. I always had to be tuned into the emotion that was going on because that was how I was gonna adjust to survive, but carrying through. I'm also, like, I'm the manager. I'm the coworker who knows when people's birthdays are. I know when someone's having a bad day just be based on the face that they have or the tone of voice that they have. And I can adjust to accommodate that in a healthy way, not in an unhealthy way, but in a way that's helped me be successful. Knowing that, like, you know, knowing what I didn't want when I was an adult, huge. I mean, I knew I wasn't ready to go to school, out of college, out of high school. I had no idea what I wanted to be. I know I would have chosen the wrong career, and that's why I joined the military, because at least it was the safety net that was going to get me out of where I was. And it gave me time to figure out who I was, and it gave me experiences that I would never know that I'm built for this continuity of operations type stuff. Like, I do really well with it. I never would have thought that that would have been a possibility. So while I know those challenges are there, I. And they definitely put me in some really, really bad situations. Looking back on it, I wouldn't be who I am today without it. So, yeah, I'm gonna take a step back. Oh, okay. Okay. You had said something that really stuck out to me, and I can't remember what it was. It was about when we were talking to other people and, oh, being courageous. So, also something that I struggle with. Although all of my leadership here in facilities management at Uva knows that I'm gay, they all know I have a husband. Everybody's super supportive. Everybody gives me all the support that I need. But when it comes time to people who are outside of that circle, I'm always hesitant to, you know, I don't know on a daily basis how many times I get asked, what does my wife do? Well, now, every time they ask me that, I now have another coming out story that I'm not ready for because I'm trying to get this done or that done. And just a couple weeks ago, facilities had this. An appreciation event, and they had asked for the different Dei groups, you know, the LGBT, african american veterans. They asked for representatives just to be at the event to answer questions and get more people involved. And they asked me, I am in facilities, and I'm on the LGBTQ committee. They had asked, would you be willing to sit at this table? And I was taken back. Like, I don't know that I'm ready for everybody to know that. Right. But as I talked through it with my husband and with a couple of others, representation is important, and I'm in a leadership role. I'm successful. You can be successful. Here are some resources that will help you be successful. And I made the decision to sit at the table. Granted, only like one person came over to talk to us.

36:41 It really wasn't that big a deal, but still. But you did. You stepped out of your comfort zone. I think that's part of it. Stepping out of our comfort zone. It's hard. Don't know exactly where that's going to take me. You know, maybe it's just marching in the street with a group. You know, I've barely done that, but I'd like to explore that. And, you know, for me, my, so interesting. Over the course of probably the last ten years, my husband and I really had a diversion of views, both political and social, and it became harder and harder and should I have a relationship moving forward, I don't want that division. I want to be able to both go to a rally and be on the same page because at this point in my life, it's not to say that I don't welcome a conversation, but I don't want to have that division in my own home anymore because it became harder. You know, he was about almost ten years older than I, and so I think, but it was different because when he was younger, you know, he didn't have those points of view. So it was interesting. As he got older, for some reason he, he seemed to become just very, and I don't want to say necessarily conservative because conservative has gotten a bad rap just because, like anything else can become very extreme. But his views became just more boxed in than when we were younger.

38:36 Well, and it sounds interesting, though, because, so it sounds like his, as he aged, his world got smaller. As you're aging, your world's getting bigger.

38:46 I'm hoping so. Thank you. That's a nice observation, Dan. I like it. I like it. I'm going to take that and run with it. But, yes, I believe that's absolutely true. And I regret that he wasn't able to because sometimes I would think, golly, you know, I'm really sorry that, that we, we had plenty of things that we, you know, did together and we, you know, but there are so many things that we didn't get a chance to talk about and explore because our, yes, our views really diverged. But thank you. Yeah, that's, that's very, that's a, that's a great way to think about it. Yeah. You know, just like, whew, what's out there?

39:25 Yeah.

39:25 Yeah.

39:25 Yeah. I find it hard to have and challenging. I'm enjoying this conversation. Things that are politically based, things that are kind of religion based. I find it challenging in a lot of ways, and I kind of avoid it, really, because it ends up being. No one's listening to anyone. Everybody's just trying to win the argument, and we're not taking the time to really understand. I mean, to be perfectly honest, I think from a political standpoint, both sides are ridiculously extreme in a lot, well, mainstream. Is it ridiculous? I think a majority of people in the country are somewhere in the middle, but we can't get our voices heard because of all of the other noise that's going on on both sides. And it's hard.

40:09 It is hard.

40:09 And then realize, just thinking about it now, I feel kind of like I did when I was in the military. It was very like, I'm a part of this, but I'm not a part of this. Right. And so there's that sense of belonging that you don't have. Have.

40:23 Right. And the sense of being able to come together to find the commonality. We can't even get close to that, you know, the common ground that we all want. We want a safe place for ourselves, our families. We want people to be able to have meaningful work and be able to feed their families, you know, and also for me, especially in women's health, for women and families, to be able to have the support that they need. Look at what has happened to the children. And, you know, with typically two spouses working, where do the children go? Who's taking care of the children? The most precious resource we have. And that just shouldn't be the struggle that it is. So let's come together and help lift everybody up. And so how do we do that? Right. With a lot of finger pointing. It's very hard because there is that.

41:26 Going on, and everybody's, they're right, everyone else is wrong. And so then again, I think a large majority of the country is just stuck in the middle. Like, I don't even know.

41:36 Right. So how do we find common ground, though? How do we, do we begin to reach out to our elected officials? You know, they're all, they're still in their camps. How do we, how do we help people? What is important if, I think if we go down to the basics, like a job that pays a decent wage so that you can buy groceries and pay the rent and pay the electric bills.

42:08 Right.

42:09 That should be the standard. And of course, for me, too, free healthcare, you know, healthcare that you just don't have to worry about, you simply have healthcare.

42:18 Sure.

42:18 You know, because our country is huge and wealthy and powerful, we should be able to provide those basics, maternity leave for women so that they don't have to use up all their vacation time and for goodness sakes, for women, for their partners, you know, did you, when you had your children, your girls, were they, did you adopt them?

42:48 No, no. They're so they were from a previous relationship.

42:51 Oh, I see. Okay.

42:51 And so they're biologically my children.

42:54 Okay, I see.

42:55 And at that time, it was, well, when you talk about, like, maternity leave and things like that, their mom, yes, she got maternity leave. I didn't get paternity leave.

43:05 Exactly.

43:06 And so how do we make that work? But now the military has actually changed all of that. And even here at Uva, I've got, even if you adopt, you still get that paternity leave to establish that.

43:20 And I know it's changing. It's coming. Even Amazon, I think, offers that. And paternity leave, it's essential. It's called supporting our families so that people are not just struggling because we know, we read. Certainly I've been fortunate that I have never experienced poverty. Yeah, sure. There were a lot of kids and only my father worked and there wasn't any extra money, but I never had to worry about whether there was food on the table. And you indicated that you did when you were younger.

43:53 I mean, it definitely got tricky. But this is the other interesting part, though. So now I'm looking at my kids and I'm like, they have no idea what I've. And I don't want them to.

44:05 Right.

44:05 I don't want them to. But I also think that's why I worked as hard as I did and have been heavily involved in their lives as I have been.

44:14 So how do we help our children understand that? My granddaughters, they have absolutely no clue. They just don't know. And it bothers my daughter. They're her stepdaughters a bit. And, you know, she a lot that they don't. It's just this entitlement not spoken aloud, but the assumption that this is what, this is what it is. This is how they get stuff. They just get stuff or they go shopping and they buy some new clothes. But how do we teach our children without, how do we help them understand how fortunate they are? My kids know it. Discovered it. Your age group again? My son will be 37. As soon as they left home and started looking around and hearing from their friends, and they discovered some of the things that they were very grateful for. And you're right. I don't want them. I wouldn't want them to go through extreme hardship. So many people living in this world, on the planet do. I don't know the solution, but I suspect that your girls, as they grow a little through their college years and experience some adulthood, they're going to discover friends who have backgrounds that are very different, not just the physical or the financial hardship, but the emotional trauma that some friends have gone through.

45:51 Well, my kids were a little different in that they did have the military experience, and being enlisted, you did not make a lot of money. They also. The time that they did spend in the Virginia beach area was not. They did not. They were in an area where there were a lot of kids who did without. And it was actually a much more diverse area than anything that's around here. So they have a lot of different exposure to that thing. To that, thankfully. You know, even my. My oldest, she's like a big thrifter. Like, she understands money. But one of the things that I was, you know, I consider it like a hashtag winning for me. It's hard to get the kids to really understand what things would be like if they didn't have this. But what they do need to acknowledge and recognize is to be grateful for things that people do give them or that people, you know, or things that people do for them. And my oldest, she used to fight me all the time on it. She got out on her own. She's in college. She actually, whenever someone sends her something or does something for her, she does a handwritten thank you note and pops it in the mail. And I'm like, if that's the one thing that I could get you to do, that, to me, was huge. And it's just, I would not be where I am without the support of others. And I'm very big on recognizing people who have helped me along the way. And that's something that I tried to teach my kids, but I can't control everybody else's kids. Right. So here we are in the situation that we're in.

47:23 Yeah, but the thank yous, they're really important. My grandchildren are learning them. It's so interesting that you said that, too, because my children had always encouraged them to write thank you notes. My son is not very good at it. You know, I understand it might be. I don't. I'm still working on. He's still working on him. But my daughter is not as good at it as it. As I would have thought she would be at her age. And I don't know why, why she's kind of transitioning away. I mean, she's very busy. She's an emergency room physician.

48:05 Sure.

48:05 And she's got two stepdaughters and she has a four year old. And so, I mean, I get it. She's got a lot going on in her life. And it's not that she's not grateful or doesn't say it, but that little extra time, you know, just reaching out. But hey, you know, I can still remind them they're still my kids, no matter how old they are. But yes, that's very important. That's a really wonderful thing that your daughter is doing because as you said, she's now kind of looking at it from a completely different point of view. Yeah. Being grateful for all of those, the little things. You know, I used to think that I couldn't accept. Somebody would say, oh, let me drop you off this and this, or let me do this and this. I said, no, no, no, I can do it. You know, I'm fine, I'm fine. I'll do it myself. And so I'm learning too personally to say thank you. That would be really nice. And accept that. Because before, I don't know why, I think it was my family, actually. Oh, no, we don't want anybody to help us out or do anything for us. We're going to stand on it.

49:32 Generational.

49:32 Generational. Oh, my parents especially. And so I'm learning to say thank you. That would be very nice. And it's a really interesting place to be.

49:42 Yeah. Another thing, society wise, at least in my experience, people like to feel as though they're adding value and that they have a purpose and that they're helping others. And so it's, but, but it's you. We don't necessarily have a society that nurtures that because everybody views it as being kind of a weakness or having to rely on somebody else or be a bother to somebody else.

50:07 Right. And that has, has to change, I believe. I really do. And you're right, it's generational. And I think that part of it was, you know, the whole world my parents grew up in the generate depression and world War two and then you have to stand on your own 2ft and so forth and so on. But yes, because by accepting the gift, it gives somebody something back just by saying, yes, thank you, they feel good.

50:35 Yeah.

50:35 Instead of me thinking, oh, you know, I can't accept that because that means that I am less. By accepting something that I'm not doing it on my own. Or maybe there's a sense of obligation then, to that person.

50:52 Sure.

50:53 Which is very interesting to explore. Like, now I'm obligated to you because you gave me something.

50:58 Right. And real, true friends, you don't have to do that, though.

51:01 Right.

51:01 But that's the thing. So I've been fortunate in that I've been able to. To surround myself with all of these people who. They're just awesome people, and we all would do anything for one another, but with, that means people who maybe overstay their welcome or overstep their bounds. And the more they do it, and after you warn them about it, then you have to kind of cut them out. And so now I've now, like, yes, I've great this. I've got this great utopia of people, but then there's all these other folks that are on the outside for whatever reason. Right. And so that.

51:34 That must be hard.

51:35 That creates division in a lot of ways. And I find that I don't. A lot of my family, out of 42 grandkids, I'm the only one who left buffalo. I'm the only one with a career. I'm the only one who finished college. I go home and I can't relate to anybody. It's like. It's like I go to these family events and I try, but I'm just not living in the same world that they are. And so everybody's cordial, you know, no one's rude or mean or anything, but it's just. It's very hard to relate. Right.

52:10 Sure.

52:11 Yeah. So as a country, I feel like that's where we are in a lot of ways. Right?

52:14 Yeah. How can we find those basic. The things that are relatable to all of us? Acceptance is part of it.

52:24 Maybe it's. I think it's really. It's creating the spaces that nurture those.

52:28 Things, but, you know, accepting each of us as. As we are, that that is a way to create the space. And somehow supporting emotionally supporting someone doesn't have to be financial, but letting them know that they're. That they are valuable and they're good people, those are the kinds of things that we can. The messages that we can spread.

53:01 There's a huge shift in psychological issues. It used to be you never wanted to go to a counselor or a therapist or anything like that. Right. And I spent a majority of my military career in the intelligence community where I had polygraphs, and you weren't. If any of that stuff happened, you'd lose your clearance. And then they'd reassign you. And so that's like this added additional. Now that has all changed. Now they're understanding. They understand what PTSD is. They understand and they're putting resources to it. However, with COVID there's been this huge influx of folks that are now needing therapy. There's not enough therapists. They're overworked. So now that's affecting the care that they can give. And it's just when you start to get into these big conversations, the world gets very scary and it becomes very stressful. At least I think. Which is why I'm happy in my little bubble. I want to reach out and I want to make a difference and I want to help. But at the same time, I'm not going to do it to the point where I've learned this. It's taken a lot of years to learn this. I'm not going to do it to the point where it starts to negatively affect me and bring me down.

54:11 Spread yourself too thin?

54:12 Yes.

54:12 Is one way of looking at that.

54:14 Sure. Sure.

54:15 Right. So we're nearing the very end of the conversation.

54:19 Okay. You guys already seem to be reaching a somewhat natural conclusion that if you have any final takeaways, anything that surprised you about your partner today, how you felt the conversation went, please feel free to reflect on it. Now, that book.

54:36 I've really, really enjoyed our conversation.

54:38 Me as well.

54:39 Yeah. And also because I've never sat down and talked to a gay man before. I mean, yes, I've had acquaintances, but it's really, really nice and important. And I think that where I am in my life, too, it just adds to my experience. So thank you very much.

55:01 No, I appreciate that. And I. The first thing that stood out to me was your first sentence in your biography. And that's just you're in this journey and you're transitioning and you're trying to find yourself. Right. And then. And that kind of fed into all the other different things. You know, like the practicing Catholicism. And at first I was like, until Covid. And I was like, well, what does that mean? Right. Like, what happened there? But I think I like. And it's the thought that I kind of had in Sheridan that's kind of with your spouse. That as some people age, the world gets smaller and yours got bigger. Right. And so I feel like I'm in that upswing of the world's getting bigger. You know, I've had all these constraints that aren't there anymore. And so I think your perspective is. I very much appreciate it. And I don't know. I'd even be willing to grab coffee with you sometime if you'd like.

55:53 Yeah, that sounds great. That sounds like a lot of fun.

55:56 Yeah.

55:57 Yeah. Really.

56:00 I'm one that learns from others. And so I'm walking away with this, definitely with a, with a whole other view on things that I really appreciate.

56:08 That's good. You know, one of the things that I, as an older person now, you know, being in my seventies, it's a whole. It's seventies. It's like, wow, seventies, but seventies. The new 50, I think so at least it is for me. So it's a whole different aspect. It's a whole different way to age. I think that's what it is. You know, I watched my parents age before that, my grandparent, my grandmother's age. And one quick story. My grandmother, when she was my brother, graduated from law school out in Chicago, and my grandmother said, I am going to be there. And her, her sister said, well, you're certainly not going to wear that dress because that dress is for a younger person. And my grandmother said, well, I am so going to wear this dress and I am going out and I am flying to Chicago and I am going to be there. And don't, you know, she did. So I have to think about those things, too. But, yeah. Thank you. Yeah, this has been great.