Dana Walrath and Durkhanai Ayubi

00:03 Hello, my name is the Connie and I am 35 today's date is the 30th of October here in Adelaide Australia. It is almost half past 6 in the morning, and I'm sitting here in this boat tool room with a Dana walrath who I came to know exactly a year ago and we met in November 2019. We met in Rhodes house at University of Iowa, Atlantic Fellowship.

00:45 I did so wonderful to be with you today there Connie. So I am Dana walrath and I'm 60 years old and it is the same date and I'm delighted to be here with you. And yes, I remember so well, I'm needing you and one of the things that we were there as part as a a a convening for fellows from all these other programs, but you and I were brought together as as externs. We were supposed to be coming up with a program for narrative in social change and I had just barely got back to the US and then was back on a plane and and then come over to the UK and meeting all these new people in this is very unusual place, but we immediately connected over and as I had today is I warned you.

01:45 After reading your beautiful book, I am I wanted to cook something and it's no sang to me because it's when you read about it in the book. It was something from your childhood. And so so I want to hear your first food memory from your child.

02:18 My first food memories of my family left Afghanistan when I was not even a one-year-old. I'm so this was the height of the Cold War and we made our way from Pakistan it where we stayed in a refugee camp over to Australia by the mid in the mid-80s and soul food all of a sudden became this really big part of my life growing up and I don't know if I can pinpoint an exact first food experience a moment. But all I kind of remember is my childhood and kind of adolescence growing up just being all about food food became like this anchor for my family, you know, because we've gone through I guess something collectively quite traumatic, you know, we're leaving ancestry my

03:18 Athena for my parents what that lost meant was huge compared to what it meant for us as kids. We were all under the age of 10 by three sisters and I are descendants of I guess what that transition on that last month, but in her for my parents it was I guess I lost of everything then you didn't answer then for my mom who loves to cook and she's just an amazing natural cook and then you know, she kind of wanted us to stay really connected to your history and Origins and food became this kind of means of staying connected to all of those memories and eventually as we grew up it would become a way to share with those in on you harm because my family, you know, we became quite involved in food American restaurants, and that's a huge part of my life.

04:18 Andrew kind of connection to foods that wraps me up in a woman brace and I just remember things, you know, some of my happiest memories as a kid growing up with these memories of making food together like with my sister has my mom and you know other friends people from the community and you know, it was everything because we didn't have much too old and all of a sudden food with a way to form those connections in a cooked together Afghan food. Not just about you know that point where you start to eat. It's that point it is also about how you prepare things and so much about culture is about hospitality and coming out at 8 and said we would all kind of be together making like hot flatbreads code for Lonnie, you know, you stuff them with whatever feeling you like and then you can fry them and eat them with like I your good or a chat me or something.

05:18 United kind of cookie or acidic of citrus are acidic on the side and I just memories at that will making dumplings together, you know, there's some of my fondest kind of memories we would just have fun. But you know, it's it's a lovely to see you make a soup and I think you know when we were talking about food and just the things that kind of made us have that really instant connection when we first met in Oxford so much all that was about like this shed kind of coke true history that we have your from. I mean, yeah, I might be on from Afghanistan and what kind of birth from their Central Asian regions this dinner for me. It was just an instant connection we've never met before but we knew we were going to work together on this kind of report around narratives and what narratives Main and I guess I

06:18 Talk about like you'll kind of earliest memories on your childhood because I remember when we first met one of the most striking things that resonated with me about you as we got to know each other how kind of unique your child would sing and how much I think it was so formative in the person that was there in front of me. And do you want to talk about doing to talk about the sorcerer's at the end? And yes, absolutely. It was that instantaneous connection and it it happened right right at that moment where we were introducing each other. I remember I had to go first at today. I mean, it was a room of 30 strangers and i e v O'Brien asked us all to share something about ourselves that wasn't obvious just by looking at it. And so I went right for my Armenian identity because I don't necessarily look Armenian and because

07:18 Especially to people in the US where we're so socialized to see color before we think see anything else. So I grew up in your mother who likewise Made Beautiful Armenian food, but at the same time wanted us to sit in and US Society so so we did not speak Armenian at home. And we really are we didn't even go to Armenian Church. We kind of had that all X out of our lives in order to sort of rise up and American Society of food or the music. So that was there where it went is my parents started out with very little, you know, children of refugees don't have much my father grew up poor in the US and so they they were self-made and one of the ways to make opportunities at

08:18 Time was Ted work in other countries to my father worked in Brazil and the whole family went there when I was a little girl and then and then later went to Yemen while I was just finishing 10th grade in the United States and when I was there and I had brought all my school books cuz there were no schools for me and I was going to do school via correspondence in order to graduate and finish high school, but they were so desperate for teachers in Yemen. That was my 10:00 American Education. I got hired to teach 6th and 7th grade science and math. So I just sort of right at that moment. I understood American privilege in ways different from one cell right there. It was sort of like wow with my education I have stuff to offer to people on here and and was just

09:18 Doing it. I love teaching and if is Yemen's first experiment and bilingual co-education. But to tell the truth the students wear it worth struggling with their English. So that died halfway through the year did my airbag was catching up to their English. And so we did that also being there also really gave me a profound sense to of color again because I was my mother and my sister who both are dark hair dark eyes darker skin. So they look like they could be underneath and even though it's very respectfully on the street my my sister and mother would get harassed and I just looks like a foreigner like an American who was so so my growing up had this very

10:18 Challenging bit of how do I sit in and I wanted to be as Armenian as I could possibly be and yet other than live with it. And so that's why I went to write to introducing myself that way.

10:42 That kind of awareness and the activation of privilege and race and color at such a young age. And sometimes I wonder if it's not those kind of really early memories of kind of being aware of difference in over their privilege or I'm lack of privilege that kind of really shapes who we become as adults and I know it from me, you know, those really kind of early memories of you know, I had two similar experience in a way that I didn't really know that my family was different that I was in her from a background that you know could be considered challenging in the west like growing up as a small kid, and I remember the first time that was active.

11:42 From me was when I was we had dropped I was with my mom. I was just a young girl may be like 4 years old and something like that and we had to drop my sister off at school and we will walk across the school liable and this woman kind of approach to my mom who wear the headscarf right because of my family is Muslim and my mom and she basically was just really rancid tour parents and this is in a pre September 11th, but still what did she have on her head like all of this stuff? Right? And so I think for me in some way looking back I was the kind of I guess that sense of just how upset I got to see that somebody speaking to my mom in that way. You know, what they were saying just really activated that idea that you know, I was different and that maybe

12:42 I had to stop to eventually, you know, I'm grapple with that. I think that was the seed of it for me, but my response to it was really funny because I kind of instead of Shine Your Way or becoming really scared. I told my mom I was like Mom and I want to wear a headscarf just like you and I would so insistent that I wanted to wear it to school. You're just like in solidarity with my mother and I was like four and let me experiment with it. But you know, and I guess they're the kind of thing you have to contend with when you are from a background that is different to the mainstream where you find yourself. Absolutely and I think I think especially when you're from a background that isn't public knowledge isn't common knowledge, then you have to figure out how to get that truce out there. And yeah, so I think

13:42 Me that's a dub profound role in in wanting to tell stories and thinking about narratives. And even before I was writing my own stories. I was using stories always to help others, you know to learn and so far so good career and kind of Hyatt will higher education in your career in that kind of thing. You eventually our teacher write an academic and anthropology. That is my day job or most people get doctors and anthropology. It was I was I had majored in Fine Arts in biology and I moved away from words I N N I thought about it for a long time. I was always afraid shist reader me when I was a little girl, I would

14:42 Stand up on my bed at night read by Streetlight. That's how much but I never imagined myself as a writer. And so instead I'm just making visual art and then doing biology because it was so beautiful to look under the microscope. It wasn't and then I was thinking how am I going to figure out to make sure I have a decent living because it's you know artists are expected to live on air and and snow for I thought I know I'll get a doctorate in anthropology. Everything I've ever is relevant to anthropology and I went and did that and that ultimately and empowered me but then and gave me a vocabulary to talk about all of what we were just mentioning before in terms of us how we're looking at the cultural.

15:42 Dissonance the cognitive dissonance when I think that one of the things that happen for both of us as we were into the power structures and some people are making the rules but these aren't necessarily the right rules and I think that come from straddling different cultures and living in different cultures. And then you you understand how arbitrary so many of the rules are which is wonderful because that gives us permission to change the rules and I'm so so that was sort of my my way in but I the anthropology gave me the way to talk about things and I I I I was the medical Humanities person in a college of medicine for years and years and years that I was little too outside the box for that world and I when I was using stories narrative medicine

16:42 And then my mother loves, you know, who wanted me to grow up and become a doctor she moved in and she could she had dementia that was severe enough said that point my father had already died. And and so she moved in and she standing in my kitchen and she said to me Dinah you should quit your job and make art time which is something she's never ever and then that set me on this whole journey and so then I started making art full-time and then and now, you know how to have my own work out there, which is is Wonder Halo getting the opportunity to then share stories and help other fellows share their own stories is that I want a jack Torry so satisfying

17:40 And tell me that said what do you think it felt like was I almost having like your mother's permission. I know you've written a lot about that experience and that kind of the shifts that happened for you internally because of living with your mom with dementia and you write this beautiful kind of little piece around that I think really, you know explodes Dementia in a way that I've never seen or read or even heard anybody for me. It was a revelation like speaking about to mention this way that was really quite beautiful and life-giving and the lessons that taught you when almost the things you were able to strip back forth you and your mother because of this, you know quote on quote disease that is that really was a transformative time for me. I think that I was becoming aware that you know, I had these other things I wanted to do in life.

18:40 I was doing them all during stolen hours. I get up really early or stay up late or work done in on weekends and occasionally go on a retreat and just work on this stuff, but it was really when I gave it the full time that things shifted but also parallel to the work that we've done together. We're we're we're how dominant narrative shape the world and we enter the sandman and then we live so so the dominant narrative that you are mother and you are the four year old face was one tree and and and and so forth and so once I kind of understood the world that way in terms of dominant narratives and social constructions, it became really possible to look at every situation that way including Russia and the end.

19:40 It became really I was a medical Anthropologist. So I had this great tool kit to bring right to dementia. So and then just give it a different way of thinking about it and living and even though it's been a hard sell with some by a medical practitioner. So the Lancet was willing to take on some of these ideas. It it it was something that because it's out there people are finding Comfort. That's that's what I I hear and you must be having that happened with your work too and you not I can imagine that's an Afghan communities at the Aspera is just that this book tell me about some of these past few weeks since you're butina

20:32 Yeah, well.

20:33 Well, I guess if they even got a little step back again, I just the parallel is that have kind of play. I mean our experiences have been different. It's just my major was in science as well. Like I was a chemist and I did my honors and chemistry and really I should have been a Humanities Federal along right?

21:03 You know being like well for culturally and from make my background, you know, it's kind of like you have to be like a doctor or scientist or something quite serious, you know or a lawyer or something, but it wasn't until a bit later and I was bit older and I was starting to kind of

21:21 Constant eyes what I really wanted to do. You know it with the hindsight of seeing what I was speaking to me where it where my heart felt like it was opening up as I was doing things and I fully in this moment. I realized that I should be kind of expressing myself through the written word and I it's a funny story. You said that you would like narratives and I think in a small way, I was pretty much doing the same thing. I remember with my on his dissertation my face really beautiful poetic action in my supervisor what to do with it.

22:11 Looking back at Psychology know that's what I should have been doing all along. I mean, I love how you know, if you have the ability or the desire to want to think, you know in different ways you can really makes those words together that scientific kind of world where everything sore micro you knew I was dealing with like chemical equations and atoms and this kind of thing and then if you have the capacity to zoom right out and starts think about it constructs the world in the ideologies that make it up and you can marry those things together you kind of make something that's really different. I absolutely an end. My dissertation was the same way. It was if I was telling the story about how how can you answer us and buy them?

23:11 The doctors put together the whole story of the evolution of human birth in order to move it from the home and into the hospital and an end. So it was really tracing out an area does Arcanine evolutionary theory is narrative Arc. The train is the dominant power structures my mind when you were talking before was the about how's your cure you and I were parallel lives and and I have both doing this science sort of humanities creative Fusion sing. I wonder how much that has to do with the fact that we both have ancestry along the Silk Road and that that one of our cultures and I remember when I was in the Republic of Armenia when I was there as a 2012-2013.

24:09 I was going around the country and and every time I would see sort of a plaque describing some historic figure will it turned out they were mostly he is cuz of course it was a patriarchal he was a mathematician and a poet and a musician and if there's something about kind of being honest this part of the world being from a part of the world where people are going through that what we have culturally done is try to know lots about lots of things instead of just being in one area because it's so cool to be able to go back and forth between cultures between ways of thinking between languages and then and now

25:09 Resonates so strongly I am I had never thought of it that way. So that was a really like useful way to think about it. But I think it's so true. You know, I think I'll just isn't even as I was writing my book I wanna which is about like my family is kind of history on the even the history of Afghanistan.

25:30 Fruit, I like my own personal voice and the displacement and of course my mom's beautiful recipes and there is well, you know her when I was kind of reading and another thing primary sources because I want this to be a bookstore Afghan eyes. I wanted this to be a book that told the story of Afghanistan Beyond just he's kind of really confining narratives of the last four Decades of Imperial Lee driven war and violence and you know, I wanted to tell that story that one that you kind of just mention these beautiful intricate complex story of the interconnection and the fusion of different kind of ways and coaches to create something that is unique in a Familia. But unique which I think is the hot of Afghan culture and Cuisine right and luckily for me like

26:30 Emily said my mom's kind of cousins are my own grandmother who is like a poet and I realized it when you kind of read these people you say that they hold multiple vessels of knowledge at once and they treat them all equally because they kind of see the interconnection between all of it. Like nor knowledge is complete on it iron. Do you need to be able to see and understand science through the lens of what it is to be human which is ultimately quite philosophical and they used kind of gems of knowledge to explore what unit in the writing of work that I've come across is ultimately the most important thing which is questions Around The Human Condition. You know, what I'm what it used to be human and how to best live, you know in a moment I didn't have time and you're right like there's so many acres of what I'm not really attracted to what the way I want to thank you know

27:30 Really wanting to say this for the picture of the road and and what makes us who we are and and kind of how we Define our faculties and perceptions. Not one of those questions are really important and you're right. You know, how long these kind of Silk Road some people held most four forms of knowledge and shed shed that everywhere they went and wrote about it really extensively to the yeah. I think that's really wonderful way to look at it and diaspora has reacted to the book. It's been really really transformative because you know everything we've mentioned a few times like these that they were these kind of narratives out there in the world that and they shared through really powerful mechanisms of like meteor and social media and politics and they kind of tell people that the road is just a spine.

28:30 Black and white binary on and that there's no space for these multiplicities stories. And that's very much been my experience as an Afghan woman growing up in the west especially in a post 9-11 Road, right and everything becomes about like identity and then if everything becomes about identity and you see how my identity has been written for me by the dominant kind of structures in society, which are usually quite unseen and hidden as well. You think well, then everything about me just have to tend towards kind of revealing what those hidden power structures are rewriting where I fit within it and being the the kind of writing my own history and expressing my own voice and doing that in a way that contextualizes and shifts Beyond just these now,

29:30 Names of domination and control and alienation a disconnection which is very much that image that I weld has been Doulton now united we had the great kind of

29:42 Privilege of being able to work together on this narrative report and I think the ideas we bought to this report that we've code remembering 3 narratives to kind of honor the idea of putting back together so much about ourselves. I've been dismembered right has been things that you and I have experienced firsthand Ultra lives. So don't write this report. We were just drawing on I lived experience and kind of things with noticed from the moment. We were very young children to the women we are now I'm to that has just been such an amazing experience to be able to go deep deep dive and like understand that all and and Redan and form our own opinions and put back together a really long way of saying that it's been so wonderful, you know, first of all people. That's so happy.

30:42 You know someone kind of we're taking the time to put together and it says something about Afghanistan that kind of talk about these ancient culture in the interconnection and the in my history that the heart of his culture in Afghanistan at the center of the ancient Silk Road has had all sorts of people come through it Greek the great unit Alexander the Great and ancient Indian Empires the mauryans who likes who had like Buddhist Kings and Buddhism spread out from there and it's kind of strain is on which is now today, you know where this kind of paint it is really obscure kind of religion, but really it was a precursor to older like the abrahamic faiths in so many ways, right and I shaped today in so many ways and all of these things what kind of melting together at the heart of it comes through in the cuisine and the coach

31:42 Hospitality that surrounds Afghan Cuisine and it comes through in the people and like who we are and what we value the way we think so. Yeah. It's been a really rewarding experience being able to share that with some Afghans all over the road. That's so beautiful. It's and it's so parallel to what I know as an Armenian in and it's a way of bringing something beautiful out of the history of I know that I am with the novel that I wrote about the Armenian Genocide like water.

32:24 I did it a little bit opposite of you you put all of the history in there, but you saw us and everything because you're also sharing the beauty of the food. So so you were really rewriting and and and and show me the complexity of the narrative where is good as there is denial of this genocide and there's bombings Armenian an independent country arts and crafts by Azerbaijan and turkey that is that the world doesn't know how to deal with except when I spoke with my Representatives at the house that they said. Yes. It sounds like Afghanistan. Let's not have any more words that's not here.

33:24 Let's get honest and real about all the histories of genocide and a violin how they tie back to Grandeur imperialistic kinds of intentions and and and that people's along the way have really been church thrifted and I know something that struck me in in the conversation that we're having right now. That was never something we talked about too much at all. And it was the post 9/11 World. Yeah, and they approach to the post 9/11 World as as a person whose ancestors were killed by an Islamic government has been to absolutely make sure not to send any of that and he must have big most damaging thing that we can do it sits and we need always has to truly

34:24 Understand I had this sort of hidden yard is that are lying underneath it and not get stuck and being pitted against one another and the jobs all the ways that were unified the way that you have purchased. It was there was a lot of food in the book, but there was also I read it in the in free verse so that there was a lot of white space in the book Because when your tongue is the world really doesn't want to hear about it necessarily and NSAIDs make it more palatable and especially because the trauma is so often surrounded by silence and yeah what happened in my own immediate family. I only had a sentence about my grandmother's Survival Story and a sentence about my grandfather and I wrote the book just to flush out and make it real but once the book was in print.

35:24 And I could hand it to my aunt who didn't have dementia. She shared with me some very specific that I've never heard of growing up. So I wonder if for you to what was it like in your family because some of the specifics, you know, where were acts of violence like my my my my great-uncle he was he was a child a little bit older than you maybe three or four during the genocide of most Armenian women many of them were enslaved and and so his mom and she were were taken by an owner and while he was asleep at night his mother killed the owner when they were being pulled off of the line that was marching into the of the desert. He he bought her and he came along and he one of his earliest memories is her killing this man who had enslaved them. So the two of them

36:24 And I never knew that until I wrote is filled with magical realism and doesn't mince words about hers. But is is is very different types of sponge during you know, you got to draw on the beauty of your family, but you also sure there are things that that haunted house and they had to do in order to survive are there thing. You said that you had to leave out of the book because of of World War II, did you hint at it?

37:06 Bad and I wonder if that happens on Earth which was just such an amazing thing to do and I'm so glad I've done that in my life. I want my parents are still here with me to tell me those stories and I think the most Pacific's I think the most the thing that review that was revealed to me. The most was just the amount of trauma that they went through, you know, and it was because of this air of uncertainty and paranoia in Iran and violence that they had to live through and that kind of loss of everything they knew and the moments like in a crossing a border that kind of took the exam today. Change them forever and it made me understand them so much more and the anxiety and depression and things that they would dealing with us as we were kids growing up.

38:06 You know, I wanted to talk about the beauty of these histories and coaches because just like you and just like you mention that the reality of genocide being denied. I think the reality of the Beauty has been denied in so much about coaches to because it's so much easier to see them as these brutish things that it doesn't matter if they do there's another kind of history with honoring and I wanted to just really challenged that and she said it and I guess just seemed like kind of a kind of getting to at the end of a conversation and I wanted to ask you, you know, we're not really different world now even to a year ago when we first met each other and it's a road to ask you what that shift has meant for you from the inside out how this has shifted you and what your hopes are because of that shift that's inevitably.

39:06 Can place for all of us how do you hook two step into the World of Tomorrow with all the uncertainty? What a wonderful question and I hope you'll answer it after I I think that what this year asserted for me is the absolute necessity of speaking the truth & Country housing dominant narrative and not taking anything for granted and really having faith in other human beings and seeing everyone is trapped by the structure of our bad but we've made salsa turns as as a world and that what we need to do is to go back to finding what we all deeply know inside of our hearts some cultures. I've actually done us a stupendous job of preserving and

40:06 Practice is at we have to really look to those other ways of doing I love how in Atlantic we call it new K and turn that idea of returning to what are human base line is I think that's what's going to look at it today and I felt just so privileged to be part of a global Community during this pandemic because Americans have to own all of the genocides and enslavement and terrible things that have been committed because of their power structures and the new and it's okay. I do know how easy I'm O'Brien whatever is in parentheses new so it's not just a new idea, but it's a new with a K idea that said, I'm just signals to all of us that these

41:06 Aren't you sings this is the human Baseline and I feel like that's what our works together. I'm celebrated. I hope Santa brought me confidence and courage and to keep on saying it because that 4 year olds are, is still ever-present and I knew that I was like a four-year-old to because I would always say oh that thing's broken. How much do what are you carrying colors? Wow, I think you kind of had four people like you and I Diner where we've always been steeped in these loads of seeing where things have kind of been grafted Over Us in these kind of social constructs, but that there is space for so much more they so much being ignored in there.

42:06 Faces, I think this time of kind of a pendulum it has been so revelatory on a big scale across the road. There is so many things that we just can't ignore that have been kind of ignored for so long answer for me personally what that means is you know what I think it's amongst all the tragedy in the suffering. I think there's a space for reconciliation in a kind of over a positive that might come out of this. You know, what time for me personally what that's meant is

42:39 This is looking into the silences in a deeper way. So everything that's kind of been shunted off trivialised ignored about what it is to be human reconnecting with that whether that's immortality or you know, the paradoxes that Define us. It's really awakened in me a space to kind of explore that with so much more Rica and next and yes and I keep returning to these idea that everything we know is within us and we just have to embrace our humanness and mortality out into dependent see you again and you know, those are things that are ingrained in me by virtue of who I am and so it's just been this time that I can really grow deeper into that and create new things we had and that's just been one of the most rewarding experience is so far. And so I was hurt that you know, I can continue to draw into the deeper into

43:39 As well and create more things with that.

43:44 Likewise likewise has a tie this back then to the dementia question that you asked very very early on for me with dementia is that I could see the reason that biomedicine was so uncomfortable with dementia was biomedicines job as a healing system is to prevent death and energy-based online body dualism and we locate personhood within our minds. So we stigmatize anything that affects Minds look at how we stigmatized any sort of depression anxiety and psychosis and so forth and so all of that stigma that was there with dementia to me it looked like it was culturally produced and that it was

44:44 Powerful thing for us to just say hey, this is a window into a new reality. This is that is actually tapping into stuff that all the rest of us have forgotten about because we're so busy running around sort of Trapped In in all of the capitalist Nations and that tell us we have to do XYZ by this time and place and so for us and when you're in dementia at your truly living in the present moment, and that's the goal of all deep spiritual tradition be present. And so when I started thinking of dementia that way then my mother became a teacher and then wherever she was just follow her and so that would let me do that with let me you know travel in space time travel that is

45:44 You know, we were in World War II and sometimes Weaver. She wasn't World War II and I be in 2009 and say no no, no don't rationing and we can just buy meat at the store or when she would see things hallucinate instead of going to buy a medical root and getting rid of the symptom of the hallucination. I would think what is she trying to tell me in this language of visions that have does people with dementia are losing words. So I realize I said my job was to try and partner her as an equal instead of partnering her as as a lesser being which is saying about you know, how the focus is when you're there as the Immigrant Refugee and I know that through my my family history to you internalize second-class status.

46:44 As I was saying, oh, that's the sick person. It's no that's a different way of Being Human. I learn and grow with from a real honest genuine interaction there. So that's that's sort of what I realized from the from that encounter.

47:04 What a lovely peaceful realization and I think it just ties back to the needs before like science and you know, what you kind of explore in such detail tag categorize people and to rationalize everything and then as soon as you know, you can't rationalize something like for example of hallucination. Well, then it just becomes this outlier in a sickness and disease but there are so many different ways of being able to look at these things and you know that a lot of those different ways to my back to Coke really, you know people that do have hallucinations, for example, when so many different Global cultures, that's a gift, you know, and I'm not saying this and what those experiences iron. Yeah. I think you put it so beautifully about what they can teach you to bring that back around to your final quest.

48:04 Send about and you know, how do we bring all of this photo word? I think we're living in a world that really has been functioning according to those dominant narrative and we need to look different Learning Systems different different ways of understanding everything in the world and opening lines because the pandemic has shown all of us if nothing else how the order is broken and we need to restructure really drastically and it's not just a matter of coming up with a vaccine and insubordinate as usual. We have to stop the extractive, you know proach to Nature and the dominating Approach To Nature back and forth between groups of people and really need each equals so that we can know the richness of each other's histories.

49:04 I hope that you know is I work together. We kind of continue to unearth those things. We excavate those things kind of reconnect all of those things all that knowledge and kind of re-emphasise history of connected histories, you know, I'm not just kind of his idea of domination and and segregation. You know, I just think that this is so much power just in that and I think what it would help us do in my hope is that you know, collectively we begin to shift the definition of what power even is I'm into some of the things we've been talkin about which is valuing multiplicities of ideas and ways, you know, you're not being so quick to kind of categorize think I'm as something that fits with something that doesn't and you know, just having that space for

49:59 Being more sophisticated with the way we kind of Imagine our road moving forward and that means holding all of these things together just as I ancestors.

50:27 Thanks Dana. That was so lovely there Connie.