Darrin Donithorne and Naomi Love

[00:02] NAOMI LOVE: Hello. My name is Naomi. I am 26 years old. Today is Friday, August 12 of 2022. We're here in Boise, Idaho, and I'm here with Darrin who's going to be my conversation partner today.

[00:16] DARRIN DONITHORNE: Hi. Thank you for your time. My name is Darrin I'm 57. As was mentioned, today is Friday, August 12, 2022, and we're here in Boise, Idaho, one of my favorite places I've ever lived in.

[00:29] NAOMI LOVE: Great. Well, you know, we were talking a little bit before, Darrin and I know you're somebody that really likes to have kind of in depth conversations and get to know people. And I'm curious, from your perspective, what makes for a meaningful conversation? What kinds of things do you like to talk about?

[00:44] DARRIN DONITHORNE: That's a wonderful question. I'd say authenticity. I think it's really wonderful and beautiful when one listens to another person. Recently, a friend of mine said that listening is love. And as I was experiencing him listen to me, I could really feel his love and care. No judgment. Just a lot of good allowing and no judgment, as I said. And it just feels wonderful when someone listens. And I do think people, all of us, have a story, and some of them good, some of them Sadena but they're all for growth and can be a good experience with us. Like, I was talking to you a little bit before we started this. I find that the bad times in life, even the suffering, can be what some might call a blessing or a really good thing to help myself and to help others.

[01:48] NAOMI LOVE: Yeah, that makes sense. And I am curious. You had told me before you kind of like to travel around and talk to people in coffee shops. How did that get started?

[01:58] DARRIN DONITHORNE: Well, the first thing that comes to mind, I was driving home from a trip. My friend Kelly and I were talking, and he's like, you should. He says, you should go into coffee shops and chat with people about what I've. One of my favorite questions that I often enjoy meeting, frankly, a stranger with is, hey, can I ask you a question? And oftentimes, what the challenge of that is for me is, I don't know what the next thing that I'll say is. So it's an opportunity for me to get out of my comfort zone a little bit. And people will somewhat lean forward a little bit after they hear that question. Like, I'm a lost person puppy, or, you know, sure, do you need directions or what is it? Or are you in trouble? And I just kind of quickly get a vibe, get a feel for where I might take the conversation next. And it can go anywhere it can go to something quite meaningful about, hey, you know, I'm just new in town, or I got a question about, do you mind asking, or if I ask you a question about where you're from? And that quickly leads into, well, how did you do that? Or what did you do when your father died at such a young age? And I don't try to do this, but I have had some really good experiences where people literally within a few minutes, get emotional and actually stop and get a little teary eyed. I had an experience at a home depot where I was being walking with one of the workers to find a product, and I asked her about her tattoo and I said, there's a story there, isn't there? And she says she stops and, oh, there definitely is. And she looks right in my eye and we talk for a couple minutes about that. And I love that another story with people happens to also be at Home Depot. Not that I hang out there a lot, but, you know, somebody talked about having a mental health issue and I stopped them and I said, hey, you're a good person. You have a lot to add of value for others because of your experience, because of what you've been through, and that you can achieve and overcome and have hope. And this gentleman, in his mid twenties or so, seemed to really appreciate that. And I like that. It makes my day better, you know, when I'm helping a little bit of others. And I love the connectivity that I feel. So, yes, I do hang out in various Wi Fi spots, often coffee shops, because I like the ambiance, the lighting, and sometimes I'll just pick someone and randomly ask, hey, can I ask you a question? And it leads to relationships, sometimes not, but I love that question because it's just an introductory to wherever the conversation may go. And a lot of people need to be heard. A lot of people today are so busy, in my opinion, with phones and emails and stress and anxiety that people don't slow down enough. We're always checking something on our calendar and go, go, go. But very few people, as my friend Roy once said, that listening is love, coming back to that, and very few people listen to each other and not judge them and just let them tell their story. And I really enjoy that. So I do do that sometimes randomly on my bike or in coffee shops, just have the courage to stop and talk to a stranger. I think it's really powerful.

[05:51] NAOMI LOVE: Yeah, absolutely. And have you always kind of had that ability to, to talk to new people, you know, when you were younger or maybe as a child?

[05:59] DARRIN DONITHORNE: No.

[06:00] NAOMI LOVE: Or is it something more recent?

[06:01] DARRIN DONITHORNE: No.

[06:01] NAOMI LOVE: No.

[06:02] DARRIN DONITHORNE: When I was young, I was very quiet and even socially anxious somewhat about being accepted and through, especially through middle school and into high school. And then I had an opportunity to do some community service, and it required me to kind of get out of my shell. And I was in my young twenties, but it was probably when I started work at intel, the computer chip manufacturer. A lot of type A personalities there. It's a great culture in many ways, and it's a pretty rough culture in other ways. So I had to kind of almost become a pusher and facilitate people to work together. A lot of smart people right there with technology. And then in some regards, they're not the smartest cookies because they're really so focused on their code, but they don't talk to each other and think. So probably when I was about 35, 40, and through my, you know, especially the last few years, I've become very comfortable in my skin. I'm not afraid of my displaying my white, skinny legs anymore, that I was back in high school, and I'm just good with who I am and try to be authentic. Still don't say maybe everything that comes across my mind. But the last few years at intel and now that I'm technically retired for the last few years, I really enjoy and value out of a sense of curiosity. I really like that word, curiosity in things about people, mainly about people and their stories. And I find that as you listen, like I was mentioning before, it's just a beautiful thing to hear strangers and create some authenticity and trust in the conversation. So, no, I've not always been able to do that. I spent a lot of time practicing dancing in front of the mirror when I was a young teenager to look cool. But now I just don't care anymore if I feel like dancing or raising my hands up while I'm riding my e bike. I just go for it, you know, sometimes I'll give a, you know, a high five gesture to a stranger while I'm riding by on my bike, and it makes them smile or wade in the Boise river and just talk to people as they're floating down, you know, the river. I'm sure some people think I'm a little bit strange sometimes, maybe when I do that, but I really love talking to folks and hearing their stories of all ages, particularly older people. I love their wisdom, and I've been through some experiences in my life that has created empathy for suffering and what people go through to kind of earn that suffering and benefit from it.

[09:05] NAOMI LOVE: Sure. And I know that you'd said that before, but to you, what does it mean to be earning suffering and the idea of kind of gaining empathy through difficult situations?

[09:14] DARRIN DONITHORNE: Well, you know, when you're in it, it's hard. It's hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel. And I think most of us go through that to wonder, geez, is this ever going to end? Or why? We ask a lot of why questions. Why is this happening to me? Or I, why is my child having to suffer? Why is my spouse, you know, have this disease? Or why did I lose my job? Or all kinds of why questions. And that's difficult at the time because we don't have answers then, and we just take steps as we can. Sometimes we need to have someone virtually hold our hand to know, maybe pull us along a step or two just to get us through the day, because anxiety and depression is so prevalent today, and I've certainly experienced that, but I think one can get through it and have actually a wonderful experience in hindsight with perspective, as one learns how to be resilient, how to have faith, how to just get up in the morning and believe in yourself to get through a day. And I know sometimes that's hard. We have a lot of emotional stress going on that, frankly, I don't think we communicate very often to others. We come across as strong, or we attend our church and we look good and pretty and we say, we're fine, you know, but we need to. To have an opportunity for conversation and connectivity to get to help from others. And lastly, I think there's great. As hard as it is to see a child suffer or to not know the future or how a problem will be solved, I've lived long enough now to know that not all my problems are solved. I still had my son go to an eR, emergency room on Monday just a few days ago. Very traumatic. Sure, I have my problems. I'm not Pollyanna and saying, oh, everything's wonderful from here on out, I'm at the end of all my troubles. No, no, that's not my point at all. But I have learned that. That if one is willing to be patient and practicing some things that I've learned from experience and talking with therapists, frankly, what to do, walking and exercising, journaling, whatever it may be, that you can come full circle and see things differently, actually see them as a benefit, not as, oh, why did this have to happen in my life? Instead of just going to work and having everything be normal, for example, which sometimes I'm like, damn, why can't I just have that? You know, what other people have? But I have some things that other people don't have that are very good, which allows me to focus on perhaps what may be considered the bad. I feel that the suffering and death of a loved one or trauma in our lives can actually feel, again, that you've earned it. As hard as it is, it's somewhat similar. And forgive me for going on, like I was talking earlier to you about the movie saving Private Ryan and how difficult that was at the end of the movie for Tom Hanks to say, earn this. And if one remembers the end of that show, the older man asked to his family, have I been a good man? And he is very emotional in that. And you can hear the emotion in my own voice now. But I feel, in a way. In a way we all sometimes go through our own trauma that may be similar, that once we survive and we're there and we're standing and we see the sun again for what it is, we see the colors around us in the sky and in the trees, that we can earn that suffering and bless not only our own lives, but lives of others. So that was kind of a long dialogue on my part. But the suffering is. I don't yearn for it. No, of course not. I don't want my children to suffer. I don't want to have bad things happen, although they do. And that can be okay, because then we know when the sun is shining, then we know when we feel good, etcetera. And we can look at someone when they're hurting and just stop and smile or say, hey, here's how I navigated through that. And there will be other days when there will be good, when the sun will come out, when you will feel good again. And some people struggle with that their whole lives and never really come out of it. And that's sad. But still, I think it's important to give them hope and moments of contentness or moments of laughter. I'll stop there. I've gone on maybe for too long on all that.

[15:13] NAOMI LOVE: I don't think so at all. I think it's really important to hear that perspective. And it sounds like, correct me if I'm wrong, but for you, holding space and listening to others, talking to them about what's important for them, is helpful for you, too. I'm wondering, has there been a particular time where you felt like somebody was really listening to you in a moment that you needed it?

[15:38] DARRIN DONITHORNE: Yes. Yes, there. Actually, recently, my friend Roy and I went on a hike here back in, I think it was January of this year, a few months ago, and my son, who suffers from some mental illness and frankly, had got out of some incarceration time. I was trying to get him a prescriber, somebody that could help him with what he needed. And this nurse practitioner called just while we were starting our hike and tried to cancel the first appointment. And I immediately started advocating for him. And my friend Roy heard this in the cardinal while we started up the side of a mountain. I lost connectivity and got it back and advocated for my son further. And he's kind of like a goat of a climber and he was a bit ahead of me, but he still knew what was going on. And we get to the top of this hill and I'm juggling climbing over these rocks and I don't balance very well. So I'm trying not to fall and talk on my cell phone advocating for my son. And she accepts the appointment and since then she has prescribed to him and worked with him. And we got to this hill and I looked at my friend Roy and he just says, that was beautiful. And that's all he said. And I said, and then he gives me a hug and he doesn't say, oh, what was that all about? Or, boy, you really did this or that. He just smiled at me and simply said, wow, that was beautiful. And the way he said it with his tone and with his body language and facial expression really communicated to me that he listened. And he's taught me some things about that importance of that, because, no, I don't consider myself the best of listeners, but I've really come to value it as a. As a important skill to work on. But it meant a lot to me. It was very few words he said and yet very, very powerfully communicated by him. I just loved it.

[17:58] NAOMI LOVE: Yeah, no, it sounds like it was an important moment and that friendship and getting that support as well. And I'm wondering, too, it sounds like, you know, there's definitely been some really difficult moments for your family. What has helped you get through some of those moments? It sounds like you've done a lot of work there.

[18:21] DARRIN DONITHORNE: I have. There was a three year stint that I was very depressed and sad, and I've not usually been depressed and sad in my life. And sure, I've had moments of anxiety for a few months when you get too busy and stressed out or what have you, but this period was very dark. I lost my brother to suicide, frankly, him taking his own life very unexpectedly. And my son was not diagnosed with high functioning autism and other things with add and some things that I wish that we had diagnosed or been able to diagnose him earlier. But things have changed, right? They pay a lot more attention to that. The brother that passed away was my only remaining brother. He died at 60, and my other brother passed away of a heart attack at 43. So my parents lived a good life, but they had both passed away as well. So for three years or so, I was just in this place where, frankly, I didn't want to see the sunshine each day. I was like, ugh, very difficult to get through. So people have asked me, you know, well, what changed for you? Right? And some of it's, you know, typical, like, being more active. But for me, it turned out to actually honestly be an interesting cryptocurrency. That was one of the first things that intrigued my mind back in September of 2020, that I put some money into an investment, and I went down that rabbit hole, and I spent about two or 3 hours studying it and reading about it because I had money in it. I didn't know much about it, but I took that risk and put money into it. I'm like, well, now I had to learn about it. It's kind of the backwards investment. I'm not recommending folks to generally do it that way. And then being more active with moving from Portland, Oregon, to here to Boise gave me something to do. It gave me a purpose again and refined myself about what I'm going to do with my time. So, yeah, and so I move. Moving here to Boise was a beautiful thing for me. Recalibrated my life after 30 years of being in Portland. Portland and Oregon are beautiful places in many respects. I'm very happy to, in this phase of my life, be here now in Boise. But keeping the mind active, exercising, being kind to yourself, and finding purpose again was huge to me. And connectivity of people is so important. At intel, that was probably 90% or so of my life's connectivity. And when it ended a few months later, I'm like, uh, who do I talk to?

[21:15] NAOMI LOVE: Structure your life.

[21:16] DARRIN DONITHORNE: Who am I having a meeting with? And, you know, laughing with Orlando, you know, angry about something or whatever, but it's all connectivity. And then I just kind of lost that. And refining it was a big deal to me. I felt wonderful in 2021 and feel good, although I've had some, you know, real scary, traumatic things happen with different, you know, children in my family and that, but you handle it much better. And your perspective, my perspective is much, much better. We all navigate through things differently, and that's fine and good. There are some things that I think are standard helpers and things, but do know if anyone listens to this, that there is another day that the sun shines and you can get through where you're at and you may feel that you're at the end of your rope and the next day comes and you recalibrate yourself sometimes forcing yourself to get out of bed and go on a walk or wherever it may be. Or talk to a stranger is possible. As I say, talk to a stranger again, I find myself thinking, yes, that's another beautiful thing for me. As I was mentioning earlier, having the courage to be curious and to be yourself. Elizabeth Gilbert, who wrote the book eat, pray, love, which I've never read, but she wrote another book called big Magic. And as I think about the word curious, that's one of the big premises of her book, and also the ability to, quote unquote, be the lobster. In this story. In this book, she talks about a gentleman who went to a theme party and dressed up like a lobster. And then he finds that it's a theme of french courts. And he almost turns around and he says, ah, I can't go in. And he says, no, you know, I can imagine him taking 20, 30ft and stopping, no, I've worked so hard to look like a lobster. And he decides, what the heck, I'm gonna go in. And he goes in and people say, well, who are you? And he says, I am the, you know, the such and such court lobster. And he danced with the queen of such and such and the king of so and so and at this event. And he was a hit. And that the moral of the story is, wherever we are in our version of being a lobster, step forward, be who you are and be willing to put yourself out there. And if that means that you don't perfectly fit in, that's okay, right? But let yourself be authentic and have fun and follow your curiosity. Now, as I remind my kids, that doesn't mean follow your curiosity in all things. We don't need to experience certain kinds of drugs to know they're not healthy for us. Okay?

[24:30] NAOMI LOVE: Sure.

[24:31] DARRIN DONITHORNE: We gotta be safe, so be safe in your curiosity. But as I talk to strangers and ask them that question, hey, can I ask you a question and have the courage to just sit with them for a few minutes and see where the conversation goes? I love that. It's helped me with my own mental health with new friends. My friend Roy that I was telling you about, I met because a gentleman sat next to me late night, a day or two before thanksgiving here recently, and I looked at to my left, and I said, well, the universe has brought us here. What is it that I'm to learn from you? And he laughs, and the other couple people laugh, and grandma was there, and his brother was there, or this or that. And this one guy says, you need to meet my dad. And then this guy calls me, it was Roy. And he, you don't know who I am. And I thought it was some spam call, so I hung up on him.

[25:33] NAOMI LOVE: Oh, no.

[25:34] DARRIN DONITHORNE: And he calls me back, and I let it go to voicemail, and he's like, oh, I'm sorry. And, you know, this is who I am. You met my son at a coffee shop, and Roy and I are now good friends, all because I had the willingness to turn to my left and just say, hello. You're right there. You know, why are you here? What does the universe have for you to teach me? And here I am now with a new friend. So be curious. Be the lobster and be able to extend yourself a little bit. Not where you're uncomfortable too much, but perhaps some, you know, to be, get out of your zone, per se. And it's a wonderful process, meeting new people. I just love that.

[26:33] NAOMI LOVE: Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think it can be almost scary to be curious. It's a bit vulnerable, but I think it seems like it's consistently led to some pretty great things in your life. And I'd say that's true of mine, too. I think in those moments where you kind of put yourself out there, some really cool things can happen.

[26:52] DARRIN DONITHORNE: Yeah. I've been married 30 years. My wife's name is Tamara. Wonderful gal, and I have three kids, but no butts. I'll say, although there are some times when I might be ordering something, and I'll look at some and say, you know, you have really good skin complexion. And I'll smile at them and say, don't worry. I'll hold up my wedding ring and say, don't worry, I'm just an old guy that's married 30 years with three kids. You know, nothing to be nervous about. But as you compliment someone with a simple thing like, hey, your hair looks really good today. You know, go home, look in the mirror, and say, yeah, my hair looks really good today. A simple thing like that can. And you got to be authentic, though. Don't. Don't make stuff up.

[27:37] NAOMI LOVE: Sure.

[27:38] DARRIN DONITHORNE: But I find as I take that risk a little bit or ask someone randomly while they're making my burrito or whatever I might be ordering, you know, I'll say, hey, quick question for you. What? What are you most proud of in your life? And you'll get someone to just sometimes stop, and most of the time they're okay. And if I make someone uncomfortable, I'll say, hey, don't worry about it. It's okay. You're doing great. Thanks for your help. But it's wonderful asking people, what are you most proud of? Or what's the biggest risk you've ever taken in your life? Like, did you date that wrong person for too long, or whatever it might have been?

[28:17] NAOMI LOVE: Yeah, absolutely. I'm curious, you know, you've spoken about your kids a bit. Do you have a proudest or even just favorite moment of parenthood that you can think of, or maybe just some of your favorite things about being a parent?

[28:33] DARRIN DONITHORNE: Yeah, of course I do. The very first thing that came to mind, actually, is, for some reason, and I'll share it, is a memory of something, of achievement, where my oldest daughter was learning how to knee board behind a boat, and she was skimming along on the water, and she at one point, you know, fell in, but she was so excited to learn how to do that, and she came up out of the water and she was fist pumping her arms. And that always stays in my mind. I like water. I like boats. So I have lots of memories as a parent out on a lake with my kids, teaching him how to do different things and just quietly talking. The second thing that comes to mind is I carry a compens book with me at church. And when my kids were younger, I used to write them a note, you know, of encouragement or whatever it might be. And I'd tear it out of the comp book and hand it to them on the pew, and they'd read it and maybe they'd make a note on it. And where would the piece of paper go? Well, it would get thrown away, and that was okay, but I stopped tearing it out. And now what I've got, I read him a note, and I have some fun dialogue with him on that paper, but I'd never tear it out of the comp book. And now I've got six or eight comp books of journaling with notes and letters from years and years ago. And to me, that's very meaningful, because as a parent, I think someday when I pass away, when they get old, there will be a time sometime when they're going through my stuff, and it may not be for 20 years after I pass away, where they will find a moment of sitting down and finding the comic books and smiling about a reflection of that time. So I'm a bit nostalgic. I love those types of things that are small but meaningful to a child. Absolutely. I try to do the same thing with teenagers and others that are maybe in their young twenties. I still write notes in my comp book. I wrote two last Sunday to someone that gave a short talk at church and just tore it out, gave it to them and, you know, hey, here's a note of gratitude or, you know, way to go. And I think notes can be very powerful for me. It's probably one of my stronger, what they call love languages.

[31:23] NAOMI LOVE: Yeah. And how would you like to be remembered by your kids and in general?

[31:29] DARRIN DONITHORNE: Oh, a couple things. I think just, just being patient with them and them with me as we do good things and make mistakes. Also service to them with believing in them, having confidence in them that they can get through to navigate, figuring out what they want to do with their lives, which, which always isn't easy. I, at 57, still sometimes with a friend, wonder what I will choose to be, as they say, when I grow up, when I'm 65 or 70. So I hope I'm remembered for listening one on ones, talking on the boat, quiet moments in nature, things like that are really important, at least to me, and opportunistic for them to remember me as their father.

[32:41] NAOMI LOVE: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Some important things, definitely. And it sounds really lovely for them to have those notes.

[32:49] DARRIN DONITHORNE: I think so, yeah. Yeah. I love going back and smiling and crying sometimes and laughing other times and looking at them. I think paper written notes and journaling are a fantastic way to help overcome depression and anxiety and create memories for people.

[33:13] NAOMI LOVE: Yeah. Have you ever received a note or a letter or something that was meaningful to you from someone else?

[33:20] DARRIN DONITHORNE: I have. I still have a post it note when my wife and I were engaged that simply says, I believe in you. When I was looking for a job after graduate school, and I still have it in my bill drawer at home, it's always there. Also a handwritten letter from my father that's very meaningful to myself or to my youngest son. He passed away. My father passed away when my youngest son was one and a half, and he passed away of congestive heart failure. So he was a little bit lucky to have a little bit of a warning of when he was going to pass away, probably. And those handwritten letters are great. My mother was also a wonderful letter writer, and I have binders and binders of her letters that I'm still going through. In fact, my sister in law found five more binders just this last week, so I need to go to Salt Lake City area and pick them up. But the letters I've now scanned into and put on a cloud service for the future to reflect on about what it's like growing up in different decades of good and bad times.

[34:41] NAOMI LOVE: Yeah. Has there been anything that you feel that you've learned from those letters from your parents or maybe just from experiences with them that have really been helpful to you?

[34:55] DARRIN DONITHORNE: Sure, there are times, and it's very subtle and maybe meaningful to me just seeing how my parents were patient and sacrificed and were frugal. They were both born in 1930, and I think my father said that his parents didn't really want him. You know, they did the best he could, is what my father would often say. And he had a great relationship with his grandmother, but the sacrifices that they did. And although I, you know, I looked at my mother as she wore the same polyester outfits for the last 20 years of her life and put her hair up in pigtails using plastic six pack containers, you know, but she was very resourceful, and that's just how they grew up. And these letters reflect that. And they were happy. They were married 51 years and. And were public school teachers and, you know, may not have made the most money in the world, but they loved each other and spent time together and held hands as they walked around the block. And I think that's so much more meaningful than often the materialism that we may seek a little more today, you know, always needing to go do and buy. And I think we can find great love and peace with our relationships just by going on a walk, by sitting by the water, by just spending time quietly with each other and listening. And I learned that from those, or was reminded of that from those notes and letters that my mother primarily wrote, and my father wrote some as well.

[36:49] NAOMI LOVE: Sure. Yeah. What's really important, you know, those moments of connection. Those moments of connection.

[36:56] DARRIN DONITHORNE: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes.

[36:59] NAOMI LOVE: Yeah. Well, is there any last advice you have for me, for folks just out there?

[37:07] DARRIN DONITHORNE: Sure. One thing I told my daughter, actually, my son in law, I think more than my daughter is, is this quote that I heard this gentleman give one time, which is choose your love. And that's the easy part. You know, anybody can go pick that apple off the tree. This is the love I choose. You know, here it is. I've got it. The hard part is to love your choice, because I don't know about you. But I've had times with my spouse where I've walked up the stairs in frustration and I whisper to myself, love your choice. Love your choice when I may not want to. So that's the first thing. The other thing, maybe, is when we suffer and when we don't have a path forward and don't know where things will go to have trust and faith in whatever religious or spirituality context we might have to live in the present to realize, hey, I've got food, I've got shelter today. And for some, that's not the case in the world. And I think it's really important to do our best to live in the presence and not ruminate. Always living in fear about the future because it's always out there like, ah, then I'll be happy. And when am I going to have this? Or when am I going to solve that problem? Or when is my child going to be better or cured or not have anxiety or whatever it is or, you know, etcetera. So, sure, problems are there, but do our best to learn from them. Do our best to, in small ways, help others. So those are a couple of thoughts as we wrap up.

[38:55] NAOMI LOVE: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm really glad that you came in today. Thank you so much. I feel that I've gained a lot of wisdom since sitting down here with you today.

[39:03] DARRIN DONITHORNE: Oh, well, thank you for your time. It's been a pleasure.

[39:05] NAOMI LOVE: Absolutely.