Duane France and Jennifer "Jen" Burch

00:01 My name is Jennifer Birch. I'm 31 years old. Today's date is April 30th 2018. We are in Colorado Springs and Dwayne is my friend. My name is Duane France. I am 44 years old today's date is April 30th 2018. I am also in Colorado Springs and Jennifer is also my friend.

00:26 Duane how did you tell your family and friends that you were going to join the military?

00:32 So I didn't actually think about joining the military until I realized that the one college I could get into I couldn't afford or the one I applied to that I couldn't afford and so I was driving down the road and I saw my mom was driving and I said, you know, I've been thinking about the Army, you know, a kind of cringe thinking that she was going to freak out my dad been in the Army and and and she didn't freak out. She was like well, maybe that's something that we should consider and I kind of thought that was sort of a green light. So then I went down to the recruiting station talk to recruiter went back to my mom said I'm joining the Army on Monday. That's when she freaked out because she thought we were just going to talk about it or think about it or something like that. And so it was a little bit more of a

01:16 It was an Impulse, but then I really kind of got into it as a as time went on at end. Of course, she call my father and told my father you need to talk some sense into your son and kind of get that thing figured out, but it was it was pretty interesting.

01:42 Oh, yeah, I mean it just ate I think that the big thing was she said, you know, wait a minute. I thought we were only going to talk about I thought we were going to think about it. She said it for her was probably more theoretical. She hadn't gotten it into her mind that it was going to be something that we were actually going to do and then I guess I got the sense that she really didn't think that I was going to do it maybe I mean it just it wasn't anything that I consider before and it in so that time it was a mid-90s. He was after the goal for there really wasn't any combat going on or anything like that. So it wasn't really the danger thing. I think it was really just more of the shock of of this wasn't something that they had considered and my father had been in Vietnam and he really didn't want me to join the Army at that point and in so there was a period of time or they had some discussions and some influences and some very long, you know, as long as you live under my house to this kind of thing, but ultimately,

02:39 That I kind of want them over and the rest is history. So how did you choose your branch of service? Why the army? So when I first went in I was actually had a buddy of mine was going in the Marine Corps and I was considering the Marines and in St. Louis where I joined it was one of these multi, you know recruiting station. So they were for I had gone into and I was staying for the Marine Corps door and they were closed right the door is closed. They were out somewhere in the Army door behind me was open and this guy behind me was like, what are you doing, So I turned around I said, I'm looking to join the military. So we're the military. And so if it's the Marine Corps hadn't taken late lunch. I probably would have join the Marine Corps, but instead I ended up joining the Army in and then continued on.

03:28 Ice so there was no, you know Air Force or navy recruiter and they didn't know they they were they were either farther down the hallway or they were probably taken even longer lunch than the Marine Corps was doing no. I mean if my father had been in the Army my uncle was kind of in the hundred first. That was really a big thing. I didn't write I sort of joint to get money for college that was kind of the original idea. But I I realized it was the excitement Adventure really Wild Things in in did a lot of fun stuff when I was in and that's really what I was looking for in until really was the army of the Marine Corps or the ones that kind of caught my attention.

04:11 And so when you join the Army, what was your MOS or as your job in the Army go from active duty to Reserves at really limited my choices. I would have signed up literally for whatever they put in front of me. Like, you know, I was like I really didn't care and when I went down to the processing station, they said well, since you're joining the reserves you have to you know, choose from this group. They they didn't do good. They don't do still combat arms in the Army Reserves. The other thing that I found out that I hadn't been aware that I was colorblind partially color-blind, so I didn't realize and of course until I got into the processing station. So the the the the career counselor, they're choking really long list of all the jobs that I qualify for in the reserves, but then he said since you're color-blind, these are the five you get to choose from and it was if I can recall his truck driver Mortuary affairs.

05:11 List laundry and bath specialist and Clark and Supply I think right so and I sort of tried to negotiate and I said which one leaves the soonest they so will you be laundry and bath specialist leave in 2 weeks, but that doesn't come with any bonus money and I was like, okay well and then they said that the mortuary Affairs specialist. Yeah that comes with high tide at that point. It was a whopping $3,000 in bonus money, which was a big money back then but it would have been spent in a week. But but then they said well that doesn't leave for another year and I was like, no I'll let me be compromised. So I chose a truck driver. So when I was a truck driver and I got like $1,500 bonus again, it seems like a really good idea at the time but it wasn't it wasn't in the long run. Then when I went back active-duty. I told him that I wanted to change my job and they said I was only in the reserves for about 8 months and

06:11 I went to the recruiter and said I want to change my job and he's like you can't I was like, okay and I joined anyway, and so it's really a the the jobs who is Logistics in the Army and it kind of stuck but there are the choices that I had I could have changed my voice after my first enlistment but I chose to jump out of airplanes, you know, it could have changed my job. Another time I could have I was on recruiting Duty I could have stayed a recruiter, but I wanted to go to combat so really all the exciting Adventure really well things was that what kept me being a truck driver and I don't really I don't regret it in the long run. I really enjoyed sort of the problem solving thing, but it wasn't it wasn't what I wanted to do with my life. And why did you choose to go from the reserves to active-duty? My father convinced me that I was too smart for the army that I think those were his little work literal words, and he said you need to go to college. My son's got to go to college and get everything I didn't get and so on.

07:11 So we'd I did so I did a semester of college and I did as well as I thought that I would have done anyway, which was not good at all. So I tried one semester of college and I was living in my dad's basement and I was working like at a pizza parlor. I need to sit it wasn't it in really during that I think was like eight months. I was in the reserves. I was doing everything I can I was volunteering to go to a. You know on the the weekend drills and you know going to be a lot of the time I was spending playing army so to speak and it was exactly so the more I tried it the more I realized it was what I wanted to do. So I had sort of the same conversation with my dad that I had with my mom and the year before and I was like, you know what that I think I'm going to go ahead and do the the arm at this point. He had realized yeah, it's probably going to be best and you know, go ahead and Emmy not that it wasn't like a blessing thing. But it was he said, yeah that maybe it and when I went in again, they gave me a

08:11 Ways to be a truck driver in Texas or a truck driver in Germany, and I said I can go to Texas anytime. So send me to Germany and that's said that was my first Duty station Manheim Mannheim Germany. It was West Germany sort of an industrial town. But there are barracks was old converted World War II German army barracks Turley Barracks now closed down a lot of stuff closed down in Germany was down in the middle of Mannheim and it was for me, you know, he traveled a little bit but, you know being on my own first time in Germany and it was it was a great experience. I loved it. So you deployed where did you do play to sew a during that enlistment in the first three years. I was in in mid 95 late 95 in the fall. I think they had signed the Dayton Peace Accords for the the Balkan War to stop the Balkan War so serves in a crow ass in the bosnians were all separated and then

09:11 NATO pushed in to Bosnia with the implementation for so I was part of operation joint Endeavor, which was the first unit our first boots on ground in Bosnia. So I spent a year in Bosnia going between hungry Croatia and Bosnia it was and we got hostile fire pay there was a little bit but it wasn't that bad. You know, I think one guy said somebody shot at him once but we think he was just trying to Buck for a in a combat Ribbon or something, but I mean it was still it was it was dangerous, but then after that I was actually in Germany again, so I went to brag and then went to Germany in Germany in 9/11, and I had wanted to re-enlist to go to Fort Campbell where my uncle was I knew we were going to deploy the Army decided to send me to recruiting Duty instead.

10:02 How soon after leaving recruiting Duty I came here to Fort Carson and that's where we really started to Ploy. So I was in Iraq from 06 to 07 for 15 month. So one of those 15-month tours during the surgery at the beginning of the surge 12-month tour in Afghanistan in 2009/2010 and Regional command East then another short tour about nine months from 2011/2012 in Kabul. Then I finished out with the 10th Special Forces Group in did a deployment to North Africa the end of my career.

10:37 Out of all those deployments.

10:42 You know, which one was maybe in the most meaningful or you learn the most from or or maybe you learned a little bit of everything from every deployment cuz everything has a different feel every in every country is different. But which one can a just sticks with you? The most significant deployments for me were the first one I had to Iraq and then the first one to Afghanistan for different reasons and they were also the worst right, you know in this was something that I've seen that I work with veterans that they were the worst times of our lives, but they were also the best times for Our Lives. I mean, I I literally think that my favorite deployment was was the Afghanistan deployment and it's the one where we lost the most people and it's the one that was the hardest we got the most firefights and everything else. So it really it was that Iraq. It was very much a

11:42 You're being attacked, but it was indirect fire. It was we had some patrols but it was all sort of just sitting there pain down being helpless. Whereas I had the opportunity Afghanistan to to lead patrols into lead soldiers in combat in to do what I'd always wanted to do anyway, and so I think out of all five of those deployments those two are probably the most meaningful. We're in Iraq where you so I was in beautiful downtown Baghdad and I always say that you know what I think about the Vietnam veterans who would consider going back to Vietnam after so many x amount of years and things like that. I don't ever plan on going back to back that. I am not going to do that. I wouldn't mind I think going back to Afghanistan and going back to RC's to his beautiful country. But but yeah, I would not that I don't ever intend on going back to Baghdad.

12:38 So you saw multiple deployments. So and you cannot describe a little bit how they differ from each other, but did it? How did it change you as a person?

12:49 You don't mean it was that in criminal thing. You don't notice that you're changing, right? You know, you don't notice how how things happen over time. I did recall after I came back from Iraq. I was hypersensitive. Obviously, you know, it is in this isn't a macho thing, but the indirect fire was so, and it just ended up not bothering you after awhile right didn't even react but yet I come back here to Colorado Springs and a dog barks behind me and lightning comes over the mountain. So, you know when I'd climb the walls writing is so there was there was that kind of thing ever call. We had gotten back from from Iraq in December right before Christmas and my wife wanted to wanted me to come to church with her sheets on a new church while we were deployed and said, okay, so I had literally just been in Iraq like 3 days before and where we were at we lived our life in

13:49 4 square mile area we went from one base to another but everything would like we knew where everything was we knew everybody so we get to this and if you know, what's one of the larger churches here in Colorado Springs big Auditorium and the kids were small time. So they go off the kids church and then we go to sit down and she was like, oh I'm going to go to the bathroom. So she takes off and then all of a sudden I realized that I'm in this huge room with hundreds of people that I don't even like in the hair started standing up on the back of my neck and you know, it really started to get to me so is I think the size of everything when I came back, you know that help how far apart everything was how big everything was where life was very small when I was in when I was a raccoon in that was a challenge and then again that just sort of you you dealt with it because you have more deployments coming up and you just kind of continued on that cycle.

14:44 Can you describe how you felt coming home from combat? And if there's anything you missed from your civilian life? I always miss Slurpees. You know it there's no Slurpees in Baghdad Iraq or Afghanistan, right if he did so, I mean it could be like three degrees outside and I would go get a Slurpee because that was you mean it but it's just it's those weird things that you don't realize what you miss. Yeah, they have Burgers over there. But you know, it's so things like that for us. There wasn't a year from 2006 to 2013 right? I wasn't going part or even all of the year and so coming back. It was just preparing for another deployment.

15:29 We came back in a 2007 then the Army sent me away during the summer of 2008 by the time I came back and that fall. We were already prepared to go to Afghanistan again. They gave me a platoon ramp it up, you know, so it was there really wasn't much time to reintegrate it was okay. Let's you know suck it back in and then continue to move on after my first tour in Afghanistan. I took over the company is a first sergeant. So I had that going on then had a deployment to Afghanistan came. He knows who it was. It was really sort of a rapid pace and you just kind of fell into the Rhythm in and didn't he didn't really reintegrate completely because you knew you had another foot out the door. You know, one thing is that as I was remembered is like you kind of like this robot it work. You don't take too much time to think about anything that you're seeing or doing. You just do it and keep

16:29 Forward but when that time stops, and now you have time to think about it, how did that affect you airport? Right, you're just standing here. Just kidding and it's carrying you along and then all of a sudden you're at the end if you're not prepared for that and you're going to stumble and fall flat on your face in and that's sort of what the whole deployment cycle was and it was when I retired I had a long time and it didn't seem like a long time. And so it was it was challenging for me to sort of make that shift that mindset shift to the Army is what I did. It's not what I do. You know, what soldier was what I was it's not what I am.

17:13 And so when did you actually leave the military are retired military retired in August of 2014 come back from the tour in North Africa and had an opportunity to take an even larger role. They wanted me to stay in and go to the next year. I'd hurt myself on a jump in 2012 as I was jumping with 10th Special Forces and I needed to jump twice more after that just to make sure I hurt myself all you know, really good because that's what we do and in so I was I was battling a pretty nagging injury foot ankle injury and then I decided to sort of this was the time to hang it up. So the fall of 2013 is when we sort of started making the steps towards that the drop my retirement paperwork the the summer of 2013 in and it was good and I always say that I sort of had a a a a very blessed and an easy tree.

18:13 Christian because I got a job right away sort of in the field doing what I wanted to do working with homeless veterans and supporting veterans afterwards and I had a really good unit that supported me in that and it sort of let him let me pursue that and so it was it was really good at the same time like many other veterans. I've I'm on my second job since I retired and I'm in you know been out for 3 years and 4 years now, so it's still even though it was a good transition and I I've maintained support and everything else for me. It seemed like it was challenging.

18:50 And do you think like, you know, some people feel like they're getting out before they're they're truly done. Did you feel truly done with your military service? You know what? I think I did, you know, it's ordered here. We are in Colorado unit. I described as Peyton Manning if I went out of the top of my game, right? I had a great Unit 10 Special Forces Group. It literally was the the best one of the best times. I had the military had a great deployment to North Africa was able to do things that I've been wanting to do for my entire career and you know, what's so it was I think I was at that time where you know, everything was good also just because of whatever, you know, the Army's process I spent more time is an E7 in the Army than I did the rest of the Rings. I was an E7 for 11 years and you know, so I got promoted early and then I just stayed in E74, you know, whatever reason the

19:50 Promotions didn't happen and it's time went on. You know, I could have stayed in another three or four years and drove a desk, but that's not what I wanted to do. And in the injury sort of told me that I wasn't 25 years old anymore. And so yeah, I pretty much decided and that was a thing I think would help me shift this chapter of my life is done. What can I do to start the next chapter?

20:16 In which what kind of advice would you give to others that are transitioning out of military today will a couple of different things is you will know you know me is it don't ignore the mental health aspect that mean it's it's it's critical to our transition the foundation of that a lot of people will focus on make sure you get your resume and dress for success and you do networking and all these things in those are really like secondary-level stuff. If we don't have our mindset, right if we don't have if we don't make that shift, if you don't decide that we need to do something else if we are struggling with PTSD depression substance abuse in that gets out of control, then we're not going to be as effective as we are. So that's one thing is is make sure that you know, your your headset right, but the other thing is, don't try to do too much cuz that was a big thing that I tried to do. I tried to fill my space after the after I retired with a bunch of different things and I started throwing

21:15 Is up against the wall and they all started to stick and I very quickly found myself overwhelmed by all the commitments that I had and I sort of going through cycles of that, you know, so I'll I'll pull back from something and then I'll start to wrap it up and then I'll pull back and I think I probably on my third cycle of that right now since I retired of just you know, you want to do you know where go-go-go you're doing so much and then is so it's finding balance in what you're doing in your post military life.

21:44 And how do you think your time in the military affected you?

21:48 War veterans for now, you know all the time either so we're not ever going to be not veterans right now. We're no longer soldiers or are you know are men or Marines or anything like that? And we're never going to be a civilian. So we're this different third thing that has a totally different type of experience is called a veteran and so I see things through my my my veteran lenzo veteran filter, you know, I hate looking at the mountains and I'm seeing the shadow of the clouds in the mountains and through reminding me that shadow of the clouds in Afghanistan on the mountains, right? There's really bright days with a really dark blotches the clouds on their you know, it's things that happen in our community that that remind us of things that we had in the military that will never go away. So it's it's really bad as we see things. We hear things we think of things differently because we're from a different culture. I mean it literally is as if

22:48 We went and if I went and lived in in Ireland for 22 years right and spoke English, right, but it was still a totally different culture and now I have to come back here and and I think sort of different least not completely different, but I think of different things I dream of different things. I enjoy different things then then people around us that have never served.

23:12 And is there anything you wish seal and understood about military service? We're not all John Rambo, right or or g i Jane? We're not all crazy combat vets. You know, it's those stereotypes that did a lot of people have I just came back from a conference in one of people were talking about a veteran who told her that everybody goes to see American sniper in in all these great movies and yes your Heroes and stuff like that. But if I talked about that same thing at my local barbecue and I was sitting next to somebody telling people that was same exact things. They would think I'm a monster they would be afraid of me. My wife would be angry at me. And so there's this idea that we're either these heroes or maybe that were you know, we're going to go postal we're going to snap or even that oh you poor baby, right? You know, I heard somebody the other day tell me who it must have been so traumatic for you and all your deployments. Will the third deployment was was nothing right now, but my bathroom was in the same room.

24:12 IRC building I slept in that wasn't a deployment. Right? And so it it's everybody assumes. He's certain things about veterans, but it when it comes to Veterans just because we're combat veterans doesn't mean we're crazy and you read a buck combat vet don't mean crazy little bit out of the so I have a Blog and I have a podcast is as you well know and so a couple years ago. I started trying to figure out how am I going to help veterans on one hand understand more about Federal mental health. It's not right on the couch this we're not going to talk about your mother unless your mother is a problem gets off at your mother, but it's not going to be something that we have to sit here for 30 years and in just hatched things over so helping them understand more about Federal mental health, but also helping my wife doesn't want to ask me questions about what I did other veteran spouses don't want to ask me questions about what they did.

25:11 I still want to know and so it was a way to sort of help spouses family members parents of children even understand what they're their service member went through and then I have a really big focus on those people that are trying to help Veterans as far as mental health counselors. It really need to understand that they need to understand that we do think of things differently and that's not wrong and it's not bad. So I started in it was February 2016. I thought that I would run out of stuff to write about in here. It is 2 years later and I haven't run out yet. And so I put a and I've been doing it for a couple years, but just recently I put those a lot of them together in a book and and published it and it's on Amazon and and it's it's really grouped around different a different factors. Like how you build resilience. How do we how do we build skills that we need to to navigate post-military life? What do you do?

26:11 It's 1 in the morning your eyes pop open and you know thunder and lightning is going off in your head. What do you do with that? So others things like that, but it's also to look at you know, veteran mental Wellness instead of mental illness, right? It's weird. We're not crazy. It doesn't mean we're crazy does me more sick. Maybe we're functioning less. Well at one point we can function better if we take advantage of that. So it's been pretty interesting. I've gotten some good feedback of of the book in and I know it's kind of weird. I love reading your blogs and listen to a podcast and I think one of my favorite blog posts that you've written about that really hits home, but I think it's just it's so real and raw that so many people not just military that civilians can use in their lives is how to talk to a better and he's contemplating suicide and I think

27:11 You just headed home with that one cuz I think so many people are afraid to talk about suicide to talk about PTSD. But that's what creates that stigma around it. And I think you're doing a great job breaking that barrier around mental health. I was when I was in the Army when I'm at the end of my career, I was doing suicide intervention training and so there's a program applied suicide intervention skills training and that's a lot of what that dumb that article was written off of and the the news Outlet taskandpurpose it it's a fairly well-known news Outlet right. Now. One of the Riders reached out to me and said, hey, I'd like for you to write a book or us a story about this and he gave me there was a an article that was written I think in the Philadelphia

28:11 Newspaper about you know, how does a doctor break of the death of a loved one right or something like that news is really long the same thing. It was very wrong. It was very real and at that point I had in probably engaged in four five different suicide interventions. One of them to be honest being my father in way before I even considered being a mental health professional. He was in a very dark place in and we didn't nobody knew what to say. We were in Germany at the time and nobody really knew what to say. Nobody really knew how to react to it and those of us in the military and come out and ask him out and and deal with it and

28:56 And I did right and so I called him and then we got him some help and we got him connected with the right people and then that sort of started me down a path and then there was the ra couple more interventions one of which I described in that article that if a veteran is suicidal, it's very immediate thing and and you just have to take the time and listen to their story and why is Emma so many people automatically want to react and sort of get it off their plate and let's yes you have to get involved with the correct, you know authorities or anything like that, but it really what we need or what veterans needed that point is just to hear somebody to hear what the problem is and is not jump to or snap to judgment.

29:41 I wish I could I try to share that one as much as I can.

29:47 So moving on how did you meet your wife because she has a very different version of this particular story. I was on leave from Fort Bragg North Carolina was going to my cousin's wedding and I left late from Fort Bragg and I was planning on driving all the way to Nashville and then staying overnight and then driving into St. Louis, but a storm and kicked up and and I got into Knoxville and decided you know, what it's kind of early. Let me find a hotel in baby's got a bar. I'll have a couple of drinks and then you know go stopped off at one place. There was no bar went on down the next one and I got their rights. There was Comedy Club there in the bass are in the lobby of the the hotel.

30:40 And I got the right for the early show, but I was like, you know when I'm going to I'm going to wait I'm going to sort of go upstairs shower whatever in there was a later show. So I went downstairs for later show and we were standing there and my wife who who she is now my wife but she was there with somebody else and I was sort of like that and I was like going to see what that guy riding a BBC that kind of and I'm like man, she's pretty cute. That guy is a Jerry Jerry's a friend of mine now or you'll was a friend of ours in sorry Jerry if you're listening to this, but he knows that we talked about it. So so I'm you know, I'm sort of you know it catching her eye and and we're standing in line.

31:25 And then a later on and she won't disagree with this part of a she actually came up to me. She came up to me and saw that I had some tattoos on my chest and she was bold and she was like, what are your tattoos? And yes, we started started talking and it turns out she was a sheriff's deputy in Knox County Sheriff's deputy at the time and she was out with the group of fellow deputies and I was there by myself so I joined them with their partying and we spent every we hung out and talked all night and and I left the next morning went back home to St. Louis and told my mom that that I I think I found the woman that I wanted to marry and she freaked out she did freaking there was an initial freak out on that particular one, but then literally I mean it and in this is that it was literally love at first sight. I mean, it was theirs. There's nothing that if it ever could have done went back inside.

32:25 Into the weekend with her back in Tennessee, I leave short haircut my trip to to St. Louis short and and that was marching 98 7 months later. We were married. I proposed to her at her Best Friend's Wedding. We tried to set it up where I kept caught the Garter and she caught the bouquet didn't work out too much, but I proposed at that point and then we were married in January of 99 and we've been married ever since

32:58 That's so sweet. It is. Well, it's a and I think that's fairly close to what her version of the story is because I gave her credit to approach me first. That's that's literally what happened and one more. So what was your relationship with Sergeant wolf?

33:16 So Sergeant wolf was was another NCO in our company in Alpha Company 74th BSB and she died October 25th in Afghanistan in 2009. And she was in another unit or she was another platoon of ours but to her husband Josh were both deployed at the same time and she was a great leader great person. I recall seeing her and Josh they did both have to deploy and both of them volunteered to do so, she actually she could have stayed back and take care of their kids, but they they left their kids with the with I believe.

34:03 I think it was his family and in in one particular Mission, she she didn't necessarily need to be on the mission, but she wanted to do her part. She wanted to get on the mission and and I sort of argued against it and then I was condemned going to say allow myself to be convinced. But I was convinced it to be able to put her on the mission our Commander and First Sergeant, you know, it's there a lot of us, you know, feel some some guilt some regret around that and then she was on patrols radio operator in the platoon leaders vehicle when they came under attack in RPG pierce the side of the vehicle and and and she died in in you know that she was one of three or four losses, but the one that was really closest to me the one that was was in our unit.

35:03 And shortly after that the unit changed its name to the changes its motto. I get to the Wolfpack right then in honoring her later that night tour we put up a memorial and now the memorial they brought it back on a later to her. And so now it's here at Fort Carson in the united area and great person.

35:31 It's nice that some I know sometimes a survivor's guilt is is tough and specially when you're in a leadership position and someone like that really wants to do their job and go out and you have to make that decision. So I think that's why we say that there's probably 30 of us all felt responsible for what happened there in and we also have to recognize that the that there's responsibility to go around and and that's part of it. You know, it's it's it's neither her name nor that date and if we know, of course we'll ever leave, you know, our minds are our thoughts our hearts and that's that's part of the duty.

36:15 Is there anything else you want to say? I don't know. I mean we could probably talk for hours, but we don't have hours. But no, I think we're good.

36:44 So the idea of

36:50 I try to think of it was probably 2000-2001. And yeah, it was definitely before 9/11 and he was going through some rough patches and he never even if we did recover from Vietnam ee live the final years of his life were really really good. They were amazing. But but he still had a lot of challenges. It came out from Vietnam. He became a city cop in St. Louis in the 70s. So we don't know where you know Vietnam ended in the trauma from the street began, but he was struggling a lot and I end and we had done and my sister would reach out to me and basically said, you know, we think something's going on and ultimately I was the one that called him and and came out and asked him.

37:38 Really and that's one of things to do for that was probably one of the most difficult things I had ever done in my life that the week after that after hearing that wasn't eaten couldn't sleep. You know, I just that memory kept. I mean it I recognize now, it was traumatic stress reaction. I did at that point reach out to somebody and kind of talked about it and deal with that point but a very close family member of mine had literally been in a place where you know death was imminent and I intervened in while it went well for him and and and and he got the help that he needed. There was also a need for care for myself and I think I put that it at the bottom of that article was was basically like after you're done working with somebody who's who's been to that. I really need to take care of yourself because it's it's a very heavy burden to bear one that we bear gladly but one that's that's pretty soon.

38:43 Thanks for sharing your story with me. Thank you for having me share my story with you. I appreciate it.