Traci Hughes and Nada Zohdy

00:01 Okay, my name is netta's Ft. I am 29 years old today is December 5th 2018. We are in Washington DC and I am a colleague of my conversation partner.

00:15 My name is Tracy Hughes. I am 49 years old. The high number today's date is December 5th, 2018. We are currently in Washington DC and my relationship to Native or professional colleagues. Great. I'm so happy to be speaking with you today Tracy. I really just admire the work that you do and see you as an amazing open government Champion. So it's really an honor but just to start things off. I'd love to hear about where you grew up. And what was your childhood like a great childhood? I grew up in Denver, Colorado Midas about my entire family is still there. So I grew up in a wonderfully diverse neighborhood and we were lucky enough to live in a suburb of Denver where my best friend's family was from Japan. I had other friends from Mexico. It was just a

01:15 Wonderful upbringing. We are all still connected somehow with typically on social media. It was the kind of place where we known each other since elementary school and those bonds still persists, and I think that's just really cool and it's a blessing great. Do you do you remember maybe one of the first times that you started to think about kind of social issues and maybe doing work too and having your career focus on addressing social problems.

01:54 You know, I never really gave it any deliberate thought I think on an overall concern for community and others was just something that was ingrained into us growing up in an African American family. And you know, I'm the probably the first generation of product of affirmative action. So what that meant was that my grandparents and my parents suffered too many struggles that allowed me to be where I am today, but that just kind of generally became a part of our threatened a part of our Dynamic. It wasn't ever anything that was specifically said it was just generally understood that a public service is important work, but it was never a deliberate decision on my part. I started off my first job was at 14 working at the Denver Urban League with a program called operation Brightside and the sole focus of operation. Brightside was to have young people go out into the community and a clean the yards of

02:54 Denver residents who are senior citizens. And so that was just really my first entree into the importance of of public service. But again, it was more in the context of this is just simply the right thing to do. And what did you think you were going to be when you grow up? I was convinced. I was going to be a doctor until I realize I hated Math and Science II had been accepted to go to the Air Force Academy and I received my commission. I was very active in JROTC and in JROTC, I made it to the rank of Colonel which was a big deal for us mail going around each of the high schools in a brigade staff Anne. How old were you at the time I was sixteen and

03:54 Father fought in World War II so he was of course very much in favor of me going to the Air Force Academy and I had the opportunity to come here to Washington DC to visit the campus of Howard University and I have never in my life seen so many beautiful brown people because of Denver at the time, you know, my own little milk is very diverse, but Denver overall didn't have a lot of African Americans part of the the population. So I was just in love and and and I came home and I said to my dad look I'm going to Howard he said you're crazy. I said no. I'm going to Howard but I went into Howard as a a business major international business major. Once again, I run into this issue of me. I hate Maddie. I just have a mental block with that. So I was sitting in a trigonometry class and I was in the back of the class and suddenly the professors sounded like Charlie Brown.

04:54 Womp womp womp womp womp womp and I just got up. So I walked out of the classroom. And on how was Camp is it's the general areas for to as the yard. I stood in the middle of the yard. I look to my left. I look to my right. I just decided to go right and went straight down the hill to the school of communication and I change my major at ATS. The only reason I got a degree in journalism, but if I look back on it now, it's entirely consistent. If because I was a natural-born communicare. I was hosting my own radio show on KDK Auto in Denver Colorado when I was 15 16 years old, you know, so I was a natural at it. I just never thought anything about making money at

05:43 And then the other rest is pretty much history II became a journalist and that's how I started my career. Yeah, it's funny too because I am I come from a family of academics both my parents are engineering professors. And so I I grew up with a pretty intense relationship to math and I was never quite as good as it a good at it as I would have hoped but but my dad would have us do you like extra basically math, you know homework assignments and things during the summer and it was always a bit of a love-hate relationship in my family. So I really had to prove kind of that even though I was really smart and hardworking I could you don't have a successful career in social sciences and loving history and politics. And so if that's been my own personal stuff, I see the kind of person that uses a tip calculator on my cell phone.

06:43 I was looped baby. If it between my parent so both of my my mother my father had children from previous marriages and and there is a significant age difference between my dad and my mom is so my brother was 32 years older than me and my sister. I'm going to my mom's first marriage is about 9 years older than me. Okay. So the so you you left Denver move to DC attended Howard and studied journalism. And then what was your first job like after that, so I started working professionally before I graduate in my very first interview.

07:24 Was it BB King and your little bit younger? So I don't know if you know who that is. Don't like it as blues Legend and it was for a radio program that aired on the radio station WHUR. Here's a Long Ford program and it went through the history of Music in the African and then African American community in the diaspora. And so my portion of that interview was of course to talk about blues music and you know the formation of Blues and where it came from and just the expiration of that particular genre and that was really quite well receiving it one of a few Awards and then I went on to work at CVS radio.

08:14 And I got a job in the news department at the CBS radio station in New York City and that radio station at the time was the first radio station to have a satellite truck and it was my job to drive that satellite truck and go out and produce remotes for the reporters and you know part of how we know each other now is through you know, this work around open government and I believe you were the you were the first head of the office of open government for the District of Columbia. And so can you just a share a little bit more than about what happens later on in your career and kind of how you got to that point will much like most of my jobs like I kind of just fall into them. They were there rather than happenstance. And so

09:10 The reason I came about that job is it's a bit of a secure two-story button. So I when I decided to stop working as a journalist because I just simply couldn't take the crazy hours anymore. I was like having to go in at 2:30 in the morning and I was like practically psychotic for no sleep and thought that I had heart problems because I was drinking so much coffee. So when I decided to just kind of Two To Cut That umbilical cord I was looking for a way to combine both my legal experience because I had work my way through law school as a journalist combine my legal experience with communication and one of the reporters. I was working with at the time at WTOP. Julian Lily just came across a job opening at the what was Ben the DC Corporation counsel, which became the DC Office of the Attorney General and so I ended up getting that job as the communications director for that particular agency and I came into that.

10:10 What a time where Corporation counsel was becoming the DC Office of the Attorney General. So was a transformative. But I had the opportunity to create that public information office at Communications office from scratch. I was lucky enough to work with an attorney general at the time. I was spagnoletti who just kind of Set Me Free it and let me create this old little unit within the agency and it really became something that was quite integral to the agency. I had a way of making an impact did the seal that used today for the DC Attorney General's office was as a result of an idea that I came up with and reaching out to high school students in in DC public schools to ask them to draw a seal for the office and then we would work to professionalize whatever the chosen still was and I think the winning the winning design we gave the kids like a bond to treasury bond or something like that, but that still is still being

11:10 Is today so I was able to kind of leave a footprint there and it was because of and I went on to other Communications jobs with the Congressional Black Caucus Foundation doing plenty of other things, but then the Attorney General of bounce back and let he had gotten his seat with the board of ethics and government accountability as the chair and it was the first time that that board have been formed instead of in the office of open government was attached to that board. Okay, so he asked me to apply and the only reason the only Nexus between that job and my skill-set was that when I was working as the Director of corporate Communications for the police department for DC. I went away on vacation.

11:59 I came back and found out that I had responsibility for not only Communications marketing branding everything for an entire year 5000 member police department and the chief of police but because that was an attorney then she moved the chief of police at the time of the Freedom of Information Act in those processing of those public request under my purview at the time. There were hundreds that were in a bag sets of these are requests from DC residents to the DC police department for tasked with trying to tackle at the time. I really hairy processing a really miss manage process now, so I understood at the time and that was back in 2006 or 7 that we really needed to have come up with a way of electronically processing these request there had to be an easier way to do this.

12:59 And I knew this because of my exposure to the law with electronic Discovery in the way. The court systems were just beginning to start to accept electronic filings and it and I made it there fish it make it more streamlined and there would have been a better way to use technology to make government work better. Right? So when Bob gave me a call and said hey, I like you for you to apply for this job. I said, you know, I'll do it. But you know, I've got some pretty firm ideas about how to tackle the Freedom of Information Act request process for the government. If you're willing to allow me to explore that then I'll come but again the Common Thread there was the office of open government only exists on paper. So the really cool thing about that job in addition to making sure the government was complying with its open records laws. I was once again able to create something, you know raised it from a piece of

13:59 Paper or paper or mare concept into an actual functioning office and now looking back having been DC's first, you know director of open government and what do you hope will be the legacy of the work that you did in that position?

14:21 So I pause because the work was never really about me when I accepted the position. I knew that I had a lot to do and a lot to accomplish and luckily I was able to accomplish a lot of that in the first three years of the five-year term, but my only focus was simply to make government work better. And I also finally understand if government is going to work better. It's going to require increase collaboration with the public.

14:52 Because if the collaboration doesn't exist government is always going to be seen as an entity that is happening to you that is thrust upon you rather than an entity that is there and designed to work for you because guess what after all that's the underlying premise of democracy. Everyone should have a voice and how their government works now. So the only thing that was inspiring me in my work is allowing people to have greater access to government to get the information they were entitled to receive.

15:23 And to make it easier for people who don't generally engage with government unless it's in some type of you know, defensive way if you get a traffic ticket in later or if it's crap or parking ticket to really feel more encouraged and and feel like he's about engaging with government and government officials. So the Legacy that I hope has been created. I I I look at him or just planting the seed is that with the work that was done while I was head of the office of open government, if those within government could begin to drop their guard and understand that accountability and transparency and accessibility is not necessarily a bad thing. It just simply means that when we have all those things working collectively for a common good government works better for all of us.

16:23 Is there a story you can share from a time that you were working in that office and maybe had an interaction with someone a member of the public that helped motivate the work that you were doing and I'm kind of helped you feel like you were having that impact that you're seeking.

16:41 What when I started in that role I was in office of one. So I was like a one-woman band. It's a mission and I approached every day with just this openness and asking God to Simply to reveal to me. Okay, what it is? What is it that you want me to do because I was an unchartered territory. I'm good. I'm not going to lie. I didn't know what I was doing. I just knew instinctively what felt right what should happen and I had all these grandiose ideas at the time in terms of making the the Freedom of Information Act request process of more streamlined that people can do that through the internet and you know, whatever way that that was easiest for them working with agencies, which was really quite a novel thing and making sure that agent season do with the law was and that people who were in charge of compliance with the law had the tools that they need it here and doesn't DC have like well over a hundred different agencies that are providing all kinds here that right now and it's

17:41 Is there something both supported to the mayor and independent of the mayor's office? So you had to manage that so I think my answer is to part when I started to hear from people within the agency's coming to me and thanking me for the level of customer service that I was able to provide an answer your questions about. What are the compliance requirements for both? The Freedom of Information Act the open meetings at providing in-depth raining. I'm making them feel as though they had him put in. They were part of that process of have to helping them as DC employees adhere to kind of the expectation. Yes, you making information available to the public because quite often and so unfortunately where we are right now with access to government records is typically in other duties as assigned kind of job. So it wasn't anything that employees within District government typically have the proper training in order to comply there was always a willingness for the most part.

18:41 Add to do with the wall was directing should be done. If it's just they didn't have the tools that they needed someone I started to hear internally from people thanking me for that work or at least in trying to put the tools in place to make it easier for them to do their job. That was the start. I really didn't to be honest. I did not understand the impact. I was having with public until I left. It wasn't until towards the end of my term where my job became politicized now that I truly understood how members of the public DC residents were so encouraging and upbeat about the work of the office and they really fought hard for me to stay and I see that in and of itself as a blessing because of how often do we kind of trudge through life doing the work that we do?

19:39 To be able to hear from people when you're still on the planet. Look you had an impact if thank you for the work that you've done what you've done is critically important in and bat set it off for me because all I wanted to do when I started in that role was to make a dick and to leave it better for someone else where that next person is and I think that's kind of what we're all trying to achieve no matter what type of career focused on public service, you know, any of us may have it's it's knowing that you've kind of made a difference in in the the issues that you care about. So maybe we can shift gears a little bit of I wonder if you can share a story of any time where you may have

20:27 Felt you personally were excluded or just you know, treated differently because of some aspect of who you are or witnessed some injustice being done to others. So my rebelliousness if you want to call it that probably started when I was in high school and that was again unintentional. I just kind of fell into it. I was I think I was the if I recall correctly. I was the Citywide student representative on the DC counselors DC. I mean, I'm starting to Denver School Board. Okay, and I'm stood up and made some comments one day about how it was my perception that the education that students are receiving at. My respect If I Stay High School Montbello Junior Senior High School was lacking in at the students were being given the proper support that they needed to become contributing members of society and to truly compete.

21:24 This caused an uproar. So you're in my in my fifteen-year-old mind. I'm just thinking okay one. They've asked me to come here to represent the student body and that's why I'm here. So I'm going to speak truth to power. I didn't know that then well it turned out it was in the Rocky Mountain which was the major newspaper at the time. I was about to graduate.

21:53 And the teachers of the school first had threatened to Bar me from graduation well, and when they realized they couldn't do that because I had extra credit. So I was just kind of floating and cruising through my senior year of high school. Then they threatened to I think boycott the graduation. Well, why did why do you think your own teachers saw what you were doing such a threat because I think that they they took it as an insult in a 15 year olds mind you're looking at your world view was about a nano and you know, I can understand why they felt insulted and defensive because the teachers, and they they get little pay they do really hard work and they got to deal with really difficult student red. And then here's some kid comes along criticizing the work that they do and get I'm not going to school for it right now. I'm saying that it's not enough and then to add insult to injury their articles written about it the whole nine yards.

22:53 But interesting lean up. I had a teacher in high school Ginny for beer who was standing right by my side as a as a representative on the Denver School Board, and she said no this is important that you say this. So I think that was my first experience in being completely forward stating my opinion, but then being okay with standing my ground to and realizing that it's not always going to be easy. So I think that's probably also been a constant thing for me now and

23:34 I can't say that there has ever been a time where I have felt other than in the workforce excluded because of my gender excluded because of my race, of course, I'm African-American and a a country that is skewed largely towards white males. So of course that means I have suffered microaggressions, of course, that means that I have had to fight for an equal salary in my my position as the Director of the office of open government. I had to go before the council and demand a higher salary to be paid the same as my counterpart on the ethics side of the house that was controversial at the time and that was met with a great deal of opposition. I suffered internally for that. But again, it was the right thing to do if we were doing equal work, so I should be paid equally I'd still didn't receive equal pay for the work.

24:34 I did but it was an important conversation that had to be had and so it it don't get me wrong. I never I never tried to just out situations know it was that was another example of fighting for Equal Pay within government where I tried to navigate those Waters internally. I tried to trade the political Waters and and have those conversations with people have those gentle conversation yet knowing full well that I'm an African American woman in the way that I may be perceived could be overly aggressive even though I'm just standing for so always been conscious of the way that I'm being perceived, but when push came to shove I had no other alternative than to take my case before the Council of the District of Columbia and said no this is what's happening inside the board of Ethics in Government accountability and it's happening elsewhere. And so, you know, I was willing to suffer the ramifications for it. Okay, okay.

25:33 Yeah, and in the end where you able to to get the the salary, you know in the end, I still learned about $14,000 less than the other very well. And that's that that inequality still exist today within that agency let you know once again, it's really about

25:53 Seeing people for the work that they provide the value of the word and not necessarily their gender if I was or whoever else is in that job if if they're hired to do a job, they should be paid equal to their counterparts. It shouldn't matter where your male female or you don't identify just it doesn't matter. It's really about your qualifications in your performance in the role. Of course. Yeah, and I know personally to throughout my life and you know in the first years of my career to I felt often times that I've needed to kind of work twice as hard as a woman and also as someone who's a visible minority since I cover my hair as a Muslim woman and you know, just to kind of debunk those misconceptions that people may be carrying and kind of to prove your worth by being excellent at the work that you do but then also going above and beyond to Dina Foster relationships and then be diplomatic and so is exhausting

26:53 I could disappear into the crowd as an African American woman, but you need to know now even at nine years old, but you have to work 10 times harder to just gained equal ground. Exactly. Yeah, I I hope that you know people don't have to experience those types of inequalities because you know, we shouldn't have to have that debate over things that seems so simple exactly and if we're going to have debates, let's make them over things that really matter and that that make a significant difference yet and it's okay to disagree but you know lets you know at least start everybody off on the equal footing. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's that's important. Let's see. How about I wonder if you can share a story of a time where you were part of any

27:53 Collective action or group effort of people coming together to address some challenge together and that you that you were proud of or the head in a meaningful impact on your life.

28:07 I'm honestly going to say no and the reason and I don't mean that to sound bad and I've always been a bit of a loner and I've never been one just to kind of hang with a crowd and if I'm going to stand I'm going to stand because I believe in it and if other people on board great, but I've never I've never been part of a collective movement other than other than I'll have to say when I started the roll. I'm heading up the office of open government. I really did feel like I was locking arms with people like you with people who were part of the coding Community people who really understood that there is this importance to Civic engagement. It isn't simply a theory. It isn't simply just a concept it's a it's necessary to our democracy. So I'd have to say that's probably the most recent example in the most meaningful one because

29:05 It brought together people from different widely different parts. If of the world even in different communities where we all had this, experience and common belief in that our government can really work better, but it's going to require a collective effort and I'm very proud to have been a part of that and I still consider myself to be a disciple in that regard and I will always continue to fight

29:39 Who is someone who's had a great impact on your life and on your career? So I come from a really fantastic family. I've had very strong female role models and I've always been very public about the importance of my grandmother in my life. If her name was Reverend Victoria Shelton and as she was one of the first Bishops in the African American Episcopal Church female Bishops in the African American Episcopal church, so she became ordained in the late 50s and I believe and if you think about that time where you have an African-American woman in a predominantly African-American male dominated Church the fact that she was able to see that through and become an ordained minister was she took the pulpit and not step behind the minister, but she was actually allowed to preach.

30:39 Is quite significant as so just the strength that that required was incredible and it was something that was passed onto to my mom and I'm through all the women in my family, but my grandmother was very much not only just my grandmother. She was my spiritual guideposts. She was the person that I went to to ask those tough questions about life and she really imparted into me The Importance of Being firmly grounded in your faith no matter what and their lessons that you don't really appreciate until you grow up and life happened a few times daily. I call upon that I Rely Upon that type of grounding and you know, I I've also gotten the question woohoo, you know notable people do you look to in my honest answer is

31:37 I really don't look to a lot of other people other people who I can stay a bit inspirational Nelson Mandela and you know, the list can go on and on but I've never tried to mirror myself to behave or act like anyone else because I've understood from a very early age that we all have our own Journey. So the best thing that we can do is to try to be the best people that we can be have as much light in us as possible so that we can be blessings to other people because every interaction is purposeful and it's not a coincidence. We're sitting here today for a reason it's not by happenstance. You know, I also partly through my upbringing but I I came to really embrace my face as a Muslim when I was a teenager even though you grew up in a Muslim family and and ever since it's been a huge source of kind of grounding and guidance in all aspects of my life including in my career and

32:37 And yeah, that's just a really important. Can you share a little more about the what your grandma was? Like, what was her personality? And what did it feel like when she walked into a room while she was? Joyful. She was little she is a little women, but she was just always full of joy and always full of that. I think that again that's attributed to her just unwavering an overwhelming faith in in God. She was just she was the pillar of our family and you know that the the best word I can use to describe my feeling for her is agape, you know, it was a closest

33:20 Form of human love that. I felt that I could even begin to experience in God's love for us. You know, it was it was just like a little little minut example and just how that can have a ripple effect.

33:40 For so many people then I saw the how many lives that she touched it when she was alive and just how significant and important one life can be if you're living in your purpose. If you're living in your purpose, if you allow yourself to be open to your purpose and for me, it's really just been about you know, I kind of like fall into job to job to job, but it's really I think it's really just God's way of his kind of guiding me the places where I'm supposed to drop make an impact Atlanta seeds and then the move on the right and now I'm in that days were I'm moving on. You know, you mentioned your daughter like how do you try to help her for example grow up in a way that Embraces this idea of living into your purpose?

34:30 You know, I just ate at this point. She's so young. She's nine. I just tried to encourage her to be the best person that she can be and it to do her best. Whatever it is. She is very opinionated. She is very vocal and I love that about her. So what I'm I'm trying to find the fine line and doing is being her parent and being strict when I need to be but allowing her to have her voice and explore with that voice is going to be so that's that's the best response I have right now 9 years into Parenthood.

35:14 Let's see if you have any questions for me. So the funny thing about this when I was asked to do this interview.

35:24 I joke I said, you know, I've I'm gaining more notoriety in my demise as the Director of the office of open government in the night. I bet I ever did when I was in that role right now as this is the form of a been taken out from your position as gracefully as I tried to exit but you know, I think

35:49 I guess my question for you is what from your perspective was the biggest impact of the office. So, you know the work that I do and that many of my colleagues are doing is really trying to help countries around the world adopt and Implement these open government reforms right really to empower citizens and to make government more open and accountable to their people and it's just been really great to see how much the work like the rubber really hits the road at the local level because of course, you know people no matter where you are in the world citizens are closest to government at that local level, right? It's my local government that's providing me all these basic services that you don't have a huge influence on my day-to-day life, whether it's education or trash collection or Transportation, whatever it might be and so it's just been really nice to see how much DC has been and can can continue to be an example to

36:49 Spire not just other cities around the country but really around the world to just really hold itself to a higher standard for what can it look like for a government to be really open and really responsive to its people and not just wait to to you know, reactively make some reforms when there's a lot of public pressure but really proactively improve systems behind the scenes like the information process that are laying that foundation for years to come I think that's been been inspiring and so, you know, I'm thinking back to when we brought a delegation of Mayors from Albania if you remember about six months back to your office and you know, we were hosting them for a week of meetings in DC to learn about how are people doing this work here and what can I do? What can I take back home? And I'm and I just it was really great to see how inspired they were by What's Happening Here in our nation's capital. So I think that's one of the coolest things about the work. I mean, I still get asked to speak to people from around the world.

37:49 D.C. About the work of the office of open government and I think that's just awesome. It's just awesome because you know to know that the office has become the standard beer in such a short amount of time. I might only wish in My Hope Is that I can continue to work on a national International level and bringing people around to a more transparent government and transparent process, but it was also a real life lesson because I think and Justin and looking at my experience with local government and we still have a very long way to go. Be politicized government transparency. Yeah. It really should be a default orientation, right that's done for a matter of political convenience. Yes, or

38:42 Ideological convenience at the time. So I I applaud you for what you do. I really do think just quickly. My last question would be a open-ended. What does the future hold either for you individually or for this movement and Global effort to open up government. I've no idea what's coming next to me. All I know is that I want to feel that same type of soul-stirring force and impact and whatever my next role is going to be so that I can have an impact and I think in terms of of of openness and open government, what's going to be happening around the world, I think that people will continue to demand it and it's only going to become better. It's going to be forced and pushed it's always going to be that natural push and pull that's necessary for an open and Democratic effort and Society or democratic-leaning societies. And I think that is a healthy discourse.

39:42 What street is really busy? Wonderful? Thank you. That's always a pleasure.