Margaret Norville and Carol Berning

00:02 Margaret Norville, I'm just shy of my 94th birthday.

00:09 And today's date is May 15th 2019, Nashville, Tennessee.

00:19 And I'm Carol berning and I'm 68. Today's date is May 15th 2019. We are in Nashville, Tennessee with storycorps as the part of the military voices initiative and I am your daughter.

00:40 So we're here mother to just chat about your life as a particularly as it was impacted by World War World War II, so you mentioned that you're pushing 94. So tell me when you were born.

01:03 I was born May 23rd 1925. So we've got about eight more days then don't wait before that night. I think that's right. We from tomorrow and we've been celebrating all day. And when was daddy born October 15th? 1924? Okay. So tell me about where you and Daddy grew up we both lived in Crockett County. He was in one area about three miles one way and I was about three miles and other way, but we were he was a grade ahead of me in school. So that's how he knew each other. Okay.

01:46 But you didn't really know each other very well until high school. Did you know why do you think that is cuz Crockett County was such a small place. So well, I guess I guess our age and we just were not interested in it and boys. Okay, and so tell me about the farm that you grew up on how many children were in your family how many brothers and sisters. Did you have one brother and two sisters and this and how did you fit into the age ranges of those with my brother was two years older than I was at the sisters were both older. Okay.

02:34 And the oldest sister was was she so Rebecca Sue and she was she was like a mother to me. I had my mother and my daddy but she was like a mother to me. She hit me and it mostly impacted when I was became a teenager. I think she used was my mentor and was that maybe because she had gone through things that you were going to be going. Well, she were just older and knew what things what things I'd be facing it would now I seem to recall the story. We didn't talk about this the other night, but I seem to recall a story about her helping you with something with school work.

03:20 A book report. Maybe we had to do book reports and I didn't enjoy reading a book. Okay, I enjoyed reading but reading a book for no reason I thought and I just didn't want to do it and I found other things to do so she would read a book and make a book report for me and you've made a good grade on it. Did you see if she if she wrote it down when I would rewrite it may be a little bit. Okay, you lived on a farm of then. So tell me what you all grew on that farm.

04:14 Well, I'm headed on first day that our farm was the original Farmers Sixteen Acres. I think that was back up anyway that but that's what my daddy bought was. I believe it's 14 acres. Okay, and then the other was inherited through my granddaddy Goldsmith and we grew cotton and corn and

04:39 We would grow some sweet potatoes from 1 to 3 acres just wait for tires. Now. That's a lot of sweet potatoes to dig cuz you dig them get down on that ground scratch those potatoes out the ground forces plowed that then fly out, but you still have to get down there and get those potatoes up with your hands. So that was pretty tired the help. They have a wax that loses out of where those brake off on the stem and they lose it and it gets sticky her hands are get stitches.

05:14 How did you get it off? Kerosene? Yeah, I think we use some kerosene on our hands David and then we could wash it with soap and water. Okay. It didn't her a handsome didn't hurt your hands. So you mentioned corn that you all grew corn tell me about harvesting the corner. You all didn't have a tractor so

05:38 We had to meet with rice another crop but to harvest the Gathering of it was rather tiresome.

05:52 The we had to take five roles than me to Rose one side done with a wagon and team and maybe to roast this side one Gathering two roads on this side when I wagon straddled one row and would break the stocks down. So I for one got to pick up the car and it was and it was as hard to get into Rose when you think about getting down on the picking up ears of corn and put them in the wagon. Do you think white? Why do you think you were the one chosen to do? So I was a smaller because you were the smallest and so that you called that you had to take the down to her that we took the down row and I remember buddy my brother saying that that he that he took the down wrote to his time cuz he was two years older so he got it before Friday about I say, okay and so you also add you also mentioned that you grew cotton we grew cotton and so what was The Mane Choice?

06:52 Four with cotton in the summer time what what it had to be chopped kids to keep the grass out. We didn't this was before we had the frame art and pre-emergent chemical that kills stuff as it was coming up with it. We didn't have that at that time. So it was it just had to be trapped and plowed and chops and plowed.

07:17 And so you would go to the fields in the morning in the morning and I told lunch and my mother worked in the city or two, but she would take out and she fixed our lunch. We always had a good lunch and that's that means a lot when people working in the field because you've got to have food and she made sure that we had a good lunch and we may have a light supper but we had a good night. I was just going to ask did was those lunch that is known me over like a big meal of that way. Did she also cook a big breakfast and eggs? And oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, we're not going to the fair without eating or male.

08:04 And the other part of raising cotton is the picking of thing on so talk about that. What if you sent that a bar or a Cotton Bowl that usually has 4 to 5 birds and that's an inside that is what's called the lock the cotton is in love separate places in Idaho that you thought about that but they're called a lock and and if you had 5 lakh hot and it was good, you could get your crab that continent and you pick it pick up with your hands and put it in a sack put pick some more and put it in your sack and their sacks were 6 to 7 past eight long. So there's quite a bit of cotton in there. Then when we get more than we wanted to pull would say, let's go way up so we can go where are cotton are by are individual Heather there whites that we kept up with with voice for the family. We didn't have to do it, but we did we just did it so you weren't getting paid to know.

09:04 For the family that let other people know how much we picked up by other other people who picked for your family who got to pay? Yeah. Okay, and then animals did did Papa rice a few Hogs or what kind of horses that he did not have an e in it have a tractor and all right, but the

09:36 I lost it. You had you had a couple of hog heads up. We had Hogs and killed at least two in the fall for our pork cured the meat and you you killed and then you hang up these sections with your shoulders and hams you hang them up in the course. I had to be solved it down and keep so long, but I want you to take them out at soft and they could be hung up and hum and and hung all summer and keep weed eat from it then but that was a curing I was called a keyring.

10:16 And did you mostly did you kill the hogs in the fall? Was that Alia is it cold out there? It would be a cold-weather needed to be fault. Usually around Thanksgiving and then did you all make sausage as they would cuss the hyams in the shoulders and get them shaped up but nice looking you see above all the stores. They don't come just that one day. We would use a trimmings and we would cut some of the shoulders up to and grind that up and make our sausage.

10:56 And it has to start seasoning salt and of things to season it with and then they can be hung up in sacks. It would be about that like a sock and you hang up them and hang them up and in the cold weather and just let it they will cure to but we didn't leave them as long as we could leave hands and shoulder pain. I guess it could have been didn't and did you also cook large. Did you have did you make oh, yes, and yes the fat from the Hogs took down into my Lord and that was made wonderful place kiss and hug. You sent large. There wasn't much left over from the donut in shoulders and force. I was actually didn't sound good that there was also headmate to and that was used in

11:53 Like in a sausage, I've heard the term head cheese and that bread that turns name from it was you could cook it to give and any kind of mold and we thought we was called head cheese, okay.

12:08 So let's now get back to Daddy because he's the one that was in the military during World War II, but but before we get to the World War II part so when did you and Daddy start dating since you didn't really know each other early on so he was a senior in high school and I was a junior. Okay, and were there any classes that you all had together in high school?

12:39 Yes, I don't tell he would shoot me if it was like.

12:44 But he's not able so that's okay. You just tell the stories girl.

12:50 Play Born to be in the class with me and I was taking short and he had no idea what the shorthand.

13:04 So

13:05 I made two copies Oso aunts who helped you with your book reports and you helped Daddy with his short and so see it all come around. Okay, so you didn't tell me you're going to get it. I didn't know we were going there, but I kind of like hear that story.

13:29 Okay. So what Daddy graduated in what year 42 and 42 and you had mentioned something about his class being a really large class athlete wash. Why was that what?

13:45 Well, and that we side large compared to the other classes. I don't I guess that's when the little County Schools were closing. Okay, and anyway, but I did go more than I tried anyway and said mom didn't go about the sixth grade and when they were to get through their school, I would come into the Town School Alamo and bells and that was that's that's why we had bigger classes. It just so happened that his class was a big class and mine was mauling and yours was the year later. So you graduated in 43

14:24 How many children were there in Daddy's family?

14:29 7 boys all boys is Harsh was the older one and his mother died and pop on Norville married again. And there are we talk as we call Mom adorable and she raced gave birth to 6 children.

14:50 All of them boys all boys all boys. So then later she says well I had all boys and now I've got girls because she had their wives how sweet I was one of four girls. That was really sweet of her to think of a lot like that and she loved you always said she was really good to you. She was good to me. Actually When we married I live with them. I lived with a normal family first year we married because Marvin had not gone in the service at that time. And so that's we had a crowd we help them make the crop and

15:35 After Marvin had to leave to go into the service. I stayed on and helped a bit, and I think we had picked one bale of cotton when he had to leave for the service. So I stayed on and it helps the family to get our cotton text because it was a share of it was mine.

15:54 I've heard in this is forgot to I wasn't thinking about this but I've heard this story about the year that the cotton couldn't be sold.

16:07 And was that about that time it was earlier than that. I okay earlier. It was some year that they wash no market for kind of I don't know why it was but that it just had to be stored they made cotton and had a gin and and bailed and but it couldn't it couldn't be sold and I don't really know what year it was, but actually about the time the war started. Okay, they begin to be sold. Okay? Okay. So I think we can tell this story and I really want to tell this I want us to tell this story together.

16:49 Mom and Orville like your mother-in-law that we're talking about. She's my man. Oral told me this story when she was in the nursing home. Probably about a year before she passed about pop on when she married Papa Norville who was 18 years older than she if he said to her.

17:10 I don't want any children. I have my family because he had Horace for his first wife. I don't want any children and Mom and Orville said fine. That's okay. And then what happened? She got pregnant again with a Robert and he was ill and she says what do you think I did this by myself? I love that story and I can just see her saying that do you think I did this by my other you can just see it and hear it right now. So how many children in your family you see? I think you've already answered that question. But let's say that again. They have many children in your family of four of us three girls in one by Larry Carlton. What about my brother was two years older than i k?

18:04 And so when Daddy graduated high school

18:09 What did he do right away?

18:13 He went to California. He had a cousin that lived in California. And I think that maybe he had.

18:22 With the anklet in his mind to go and also Robert was in the service then.

18:28 And I and harsh he had he had to

18:33 Brothers that was so yeah, they went to California to work and and he worked until he knew he was going to be drafted. He he would he had gotten his information that he was to be drafted and said he came back home then okay, so so he graduated in 42

18:56 You all had been dating for a while and he left home and went to California to find some work. So did you all keep in touch while he was in California? Did you write?

19:08 You don't want me to tell how we kept in touch. Well, this was before he went in the Navy though, but not sure if you wanted you you just you wrote to each other right while he while he was out there with work and you were not wooden letters. You were not supposed to tell things that. Where we were and to me I don't I don't agree with that. But that was later after he went into the Navy. I right. Yeah. Okay. Okay, I'll do that with my man or woman and and and her boys.

19:46 Cowden secret code they met a certain person which the rest of family knew that he had seen them what he knew that person's going service and then there was going to be that person that you mentioned. So that was why they mentioned a person that because it was somebody that they would say or had saying something like that but he had gone into the service. This was just a high school. Okay. So when did you and Daddy get married November 20th 1940 through 1943. So so he had while he was in California. He had contacted the draft board out there to let him know that he was working and cuz he said that he knew they'd be looking for him and I

20:40 Mama Norvell went to the head of the draft board in Crockett County didn't she to talk to them about not drafting him? It's a some of them, but I don't know for sure which ones it was it but there was

20:59 3 4 4 of already in the service and she wanted daddy than they wanted Marvin home to

21:09 Hip to make a crop help do the farm work.

21:13 But that her pleas fell on deaf ears. And then and there were there were two younger boys is still at home valton and and Larry so so so then when Daddy did leave then to go into the Navy then she had five sons all has a son with her every time.

21:37 So in between that I've been posting pictures every day this month to celebrate your birthday month of you from earlier days and saw the picture that I posted this morning was taken with that picture was made in the spring of forty-three. So you all hadn't married then so that must have been the picture and I think the picture was made on the farm on your parents farm. So that must have been when must have been made between the time when daddy came back home. I don't know what picture from work it was you and Daddy standing outside and he's got a cigar in his mouth and you've got on a little pretty print dress and white bobby socks. He's got a pipe in his mouth. So in between the time that you got married,

22:36 And when he was called up where you where did you live with my mother and daddy first live with his parents because we've made a crop and it hasn't gathered and I stayed down with the Minerva family until we got our cotton all picked and and not had nothing to do with corn Gathering so that he and I did pick cotton you said that was your part of your crops do it while we were sharecropping basically because it was Papa's

23:15 Taemin equipment and all that. So it was it was a share that we got home and we have a copy of Daddy's separation papers from the military so we know that he was called up in October of 1944. And so that's when we has been all by hand all the rest of it had to be fixed without his help and so do you remember about how many more bales of cotton were there to pick about to help you out? That's a good well about the sun Farms Produce at least a bale of cotton per acre in Sun would Produce close to 2 and I don't know the percentage that they are said it wasn't Super Bowl cozy was the old man and where I lived with bottom land.

24:10 Count bottom land and its it does produce more per acre. So do you know about how many acres they had on their Farm?

24:19 I'm going to say they had about 30 Acres of cotton anyway, and I think it was a lot of cotton to pick I think it more like I don't know what it was about 50 acres. I'm not sure how much it was. Okay.

24:34 I don't know about that, but I know I thought about it either where did daddy do his basic training?

24:46 Great Lakes at California, California because he was in California. You made a trip out there right? I did tell me that strip. How did you get there a train?

25:05 I don't remember how I went to Memphis. I don't remember that but it might have been about a train also, but then I caught a train in Memphis and that train went to Compton California and just before we got into Compton the Train derailed.

25:23 So they had to transfer all of us passengers to station by some other me and my sister-in-law at that time went to meet me at the at the station then she found out that way we're we're delayed so she went back home and then came back after me. So were you scared? I mean you were you were just a young woman know I will be tired sometimes once that's a real dinosaur angry about it, but I know I'm scared.

26:00 So and and you stayed with your you said your sister and a mustache with your love is eternal all that fit met me at the train and she was staying with another with that.

26:14 And then while you were out there you also visited this is some more cuz I'm so smart and it was the byham family that he wanted me to visit them before I went back home and you mentioned that one of those children in the bag family had several teenage children who were in and out all the time and doing let you know they had a few I don't remember how many they had but then they was friends and they was a household and the interesting late enough one of those teenage children now has well he's passed but he has adult children and I am friends on Facebook with one of his adult children. So I've met

27:14 Some of those people just virtually just on the internet with those people that you met when you were out there in California. So and did I remember that I had met him at Wells the one that I met wasn't alive then she's I think she's younger than I am. So so you were out there how long

27:43 II was it two or three weeks or yeah, I don't remember for sure have some pie I saw three to four weeks. Okay, maybe close to close to the month, but I'm not sure and then you came back and I came back by the time you came back by trying to Tennessee. And then where did you live when you came back? You didn't go back to the North Pole went back to my parents. He went to your parents house and I lived with them and

28:14 We live to 3 miles from Alamo in about a mile and a half from our church that we went to. Okay, and it was mostly walking everywhere. You went because you your father and mother didn't have a vehicle know and you didn't have a vehicle ahead of the team of mules in a wagon that that he went to town and then the weather was pretty it was a lot easier just to walk then it was to Hitch up a team of mules unless you would have done if you want to get groceries. That's right. So can tell me about your feelings about being separated from daddy during that time while he was in the night. I missed him terribly, but you know, you just go on with life. That's just the way of life you get up every day and do what you got to do and go head.

29:14 I mean it didn't it didn't worry me except the fact that I knew as a possibility. He wouldn't come home. I thought about it.

29:25 But but not in his family. They was like six of them while they were five of those that was in the service and your brother was in the circus as well ride service. He was in the Air Force.

29:43 And he was he was also injured but he got home and this is a little tiny small community that you lived in. So there were there were CP there were some families and I cannot come up with a 9 right now, but there's some fat one family that had seven children in the service and that's a lot of kids to be in service at War time.

30:08 Okay on on our mantel at home. We have a flag. That was a star flag and it has five stars on it and it was given to Mama Norville by the government because she had said that you're really had survived the war and amazingly all of them came home.

30:42 So you mentioned earlier about riding back and forth that you and Daddy wrote back and forth while he was in the Navy.

30:54 Did you say you wrote everyday and what I can't imagine how you could you don't have anything to say but he's right in what you just right anyway, and tell each other you love them and tell them what was going on at church functions. And if we didn't have a lot of functions going on at that time, but we had we had church services always and daddy wrote to you everyday and if he had been out of sight and couldn't get the mail.

31:33 Thus the cerebral letter to become a doll come at the same time and speaking of that. See I don't think we talked about what Daddy served on an LST Landing ship tank. Okay, and we've got at home. We have a picture and etching of what that Landing ship tail look like and I believe it was lst-476 has remember us and also at home in Alamo.

32:07 I think we have some pieces of like some dresser scarves that were embroidered and daddy said that he embroidered while the ship.

32:21 Not while he was on the ship not while he was on the ship. Okay, if you got home, okay. Well I misunderstood. Well, maybe I wasn't pleasant. They do I can't imagine I never said I had to prompt him to show him how to do the states in 00 case. Okay. So you said that there were lots of people in the community who were in the same situation owe you our area. So, how did you keep up in this little Community? How did you keep up with the War and what was happening in the world with the war cuz you all didn't have television where we had radio at it we had at first it was battery radio until we got electricity all over and you all didn't get electricity until 49-9. So during the war you listen to that battery the bedroom people had battery radios and you listen

33:22 You weren't I guess you'd listen to it in the morning before you left for the fields are for school or wherever you will go ahead and then always at night and always at night probably when you came to the house for your lunch meal for your dinner meal and then was there a newspaper we have counted paper. We still have our County papers the Crockett times and that's been

33:50 Nothing going in Crockett County for many many years. I grew up with little when I was small when we had the crock of times. They were a man that lived in Alamo. His name was Leslie sammis, and he was the one that got the paper started. So even though it was just a small local paper. It would still carry some new. Oh, yeah about the war and course. It was a weekly Piper. Okay. I've heard and read about things being rationed during the war. Did you all sugar? What are Russian and I'm thinking I'm not sure about this but I think shortening something like that different letter word. Something's that was hard to get that were rationed and you had you had a little

34:47 Little booklet of stamps in it and it would be certain amount of stamps for certain things. And that's that's why we were able to buy it because we had to have a stamp to do it and that was during the war and did you personally and your family feel like that? You all suffered or ever were hungry? No, cuz so no, no and I think it's because you lived on a farm had lived on the farm because I had friends that lived in town and it and maybe they didn't have jobs sufficient.

35:26 I had some friends that I know that their didn't I didn't have enough to eat, but we had plenty of people did most people had enough to eat. It might have been what you wanted all time.

35:41 But there wasn't a lot of neat stuff like that. If you didn't have mates, you just did something else and and as far as the sugar being rationed you had a source of sweetening right next on the next Farm didn't you with Uncle Archie's sorghum is Uncle Archie made sorghum molasses and it was so good and it was good to eat as soon as I eat for breakfast, but it was

36:16 So hot biscuits and butter with sorghum molasses on top of them. You've also told me about things that would go on on Saturday nights on the Square tell tell me about that. There was an open air stage just strictly an open no covering whatsoever and on Saturday nights, they would be a group of people come from somewhere. I don't know how they knew who but they would contact somebody to come and fight make music and they own l'estage and Saturday night and Alamo was full of people on Saturday nights, and this is how many square in a square and round Stuart Square.

37:07 And it was it was not a big place but a lot of people and this continued even through the war and I guess they wanted to continue it to just keep some normalcy in ya life out if we did everything just to keep keep things normal and we also know from Daddy's separation papers that he came home in February of 1946. And so when he came home, he came back to the Clark Bar and where you were and you all pharmd we Farm there and then in

37:57 I believe that it was August.

38:01 A47, I didn't write this date down. He made a very special purchase. What did he buy a tractor a tractor a 60 all at 60 Oliver tractor and that was your only method of transportation was it you went everywhere on it that you needed to go. That way we would go to church on it and we would go to town to get groceries and we go to visit his family. That was local stations in Crockett Mills weekly visit them.

38:42 And and my sister that lived in Bales we go up to her house and visit. So we're talkin anywhere from 10 to 12 miles. Maybe then I wouldn't travel on that tractor and there are stories that people in the community tell about seeing you standing on the drawbar of the tractor and you were pregnant with Jerry who is my older brother your first born child and people were convinced you were going to give birth on that tractor. That was what they would say, but I think they were even more worried about whether I was going to the gym.

39:18 They were just jealous. They didn't have a tractor worth it.

39:24 So in recent years you and Daddy have been in touch with throughout the years I guess and then recently you all have been in touch with some of his shipmate drum of a shipmate. So we will visit them some I'm in Texas and some of them and in different areas to visit with us in the Jackson area and I believe let's see you all went to went to Minnesota one year with you and and I remember

40:01 Daddy saying when he met the ship mate from Minnesota in the recent years. He remember that that was the guy who hit him in the head one morning when he was supposed to wake everybody up. I can't I can't remember his name, but you're not having I know it wasn't that many of those Shipmates now have tasks and daddy passed daddy past 3 years ago.

40:38 So what are some important lessons that you've learned in life?

40:45 Well, I mine was do unto others as you have them do unto you and if you do that, you're alright. Everything's going to be alright, then you can't hold a grudge.

40:59 It's not going to hurt anybody but yourself if you hold a grudge that that's exactly right. I remember as a friend of mine saying to me something about you can't change what other people do you can only change your reaction to what they do. So that's right. And what are some things that you're really proud of in your life?

41:24 I'm proud of my family.

41:27 Forever my family goodness, and then we leave and we've lost are you and I was I don't know that we said how many children you had three you had three children and my girl was in the middle middle child syndrome in the only girl no wonder I caught her brother.

41:53 And the young brothers and I was in Louisiana and the older brother passed away in 08.

42:02 And so when you were a little girl growing up on that farm in Crockett County, did you have dreams and ideas about what your life was going to be? Like now, you just kind of took it a day at a time. We had a good life and

42:21 I wouldn't swap my place for anybody else in my life. I've been I'm pleased with it.

42:31 My done something that was supposed to been done, but they would that's what I want to hear about. So last question then

42:49 And I may know the answer to this because you said you just kind of took it a day at a time. Do you think that your life has been any different from what you expected it to be when you were young? No, I don't think so.

43:05 And do you think that's because you just

43:09 Do whitetail. No needs to be. I had one good thing that I want to say is a sister that has been so good to me. Whatever life went for.

43:22 She was always.

43:25 She was my sidekick.

43:28 She did your book reports for you. She gave you a little piece of brown velvet to make a collar around velvet. It didn't match anything that she had or I had I bought material and might be a dress and use that round velvet for the collar and that's what you're wearing in the picture that

43:48 Was taking the day after you and Daddy got married. Is that the dress that you got married in?

43:54 I think so and you got where you get married, Mississippi.

44:02 And why did the it was there any particular reason? I know so many people just got married justice of peace and and someone to Dyersburg are in so much cars, Mississippi.

44:19 We just got this. I don't get married, and he got his buddy to take us to Carthage, Mississippi, and we got married, and we could have got married. He wanted to Roadtrip, I guess so, well, I want to thank you for talking with me today and thank you for letting me good. Good. We have a good mother and daughter relationship. We have a wonderful mother daughter relationship bad love every minute. We spend together. I love our quilting in our gardening and tomorrow. If it hasn't rained. We're going back to the garden and chop. Those weeds out of the garden ocean O'Shucks. Thank you. Thank you.